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Wrath: Aeon of Ruin  "Formerly "3DRealms is working on a new game""

User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#331

 Tea Monster, on 17 October 2019 - 05:08 PM, said:

Save scumming? What? Stop shilling for these guys. Please.

Sorry, I won't stop "shilling" because I think the idea is good and I don't think it deserves the shit it's getting here because we've yet to even see how the fucking game works. That's what's baffling to me, that you guys can cry for months about a game mechanic you haven't even experienced yet.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 17 October 2019 - 06:40 PM

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User is offline   Radar 

  • King of SOVL

#332

I'm not buying anything with limited saves.
4

User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#333

Cool, be as much of a closed minded asshole as you want to be, just accept the fact that for some people this is not a dealbreaker and it can even be a preference.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 17 October 2019 - 09:39 PM

-4

User is offline   NightFright 

  • The Truth is in here

#334

For now I'd already be happy if they actually released the game. Doesn't look like they are ready yet, and there isn't much time left if it's supposed to happen in 2019 still.

This post has been edited by NightFright: 17 October 2019 - 10:05 PM

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User is offline   Radar 

  • King of SOVL

#335

Go ahead, take away our quicksaves. Save scummers will rise again.
1

User is offline   Tea Monster 

  • Polymancer

#336

I keep thinking of that interminable consolitis crap that infected DNF and made it a misery rather than fun to play. 'Save mechanics' and other console hoovery is not how God and John Carmack intended any of this to work. 'Save scumming'* was not a thing. Back when Quake, Doom and DN3D came out, you were a member of the Master Race and you God damn saved when you pleased. Any other bollocks was for peasants. If you are announcing to the market that you are pursuing a nineties shooter, then make a nineties shooter.

As to the rest of the game, I'm interested to see more. The level design looks good, but the creature designs seem a tad plain. Interesting to see where this goes.

*seriously, save scumming? What the actual fuck?

This post has been edited by Tea Monster: 18 October 2019 - 04:45 AM

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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • The Sarien Encounter

#337

Turok didn't have manual saves. That's a nineties shooter.

Just devil's advocate.
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User is offline   Tea Monster 

  • Polymancer

#338

Turok didn't come to PC till 2008.
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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • The Sarien Encounter

#339

I'm thinking Wrath will be on consoles as well.

And you're wrong. Turok had a Windows port in 1997 shortly after the N64 release. The Turok reboot came out in 2008.

This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 18 October 2019 - 07:19 AM

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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#340

 MusicallyInspired, on 18 October 2019 - 05:24 AM, said:

Turok didn't have manual saves. That's a nineties shooter.

Just devil's advocate.

And well, there was you know:

- Project IGI 1-2
- Far Cry
- Doom 2016 (checkpoint system)
- literally every single MachineGames Wolfenstein (checkpoint system)

And those are just the FPS titles that come to mind and if you go beyond that (and yes, include console titles :o) you get a bunch of classics where limited saves enhance the experience (these were already discussed). Plus there are other examples where this really worked to the benefit of stuff, for example in GTA 2 saving cost you 50k bucks if I remember correctly so you had to plan your missions out for a while and learn the city layout properly, in later GTAs you had to buy save locations as real estate and it was pretty rewarding when you got to a new part of the city and bought some cool place with a lot of space in the garage.

So I dunno, if you have a very limited time to play games these days and you're planning on completing the game in a lot of short sessions then you definitely have a point. If you're 50 years old and you can no longer play a skill based shooter properly then I guess you have a point again but I'm pretty sure that with Wrath's crazy powerups you'll be able to complete the game at least on easy just fine. Other than those arguments I don't see a legit one against limited saving.

The dodgy thing with this is that if a game has limited saving then it has to be well designed and balanced to work truly well. If a developer knows how to do that then you can end up with wonderfully designed masterpieces like Resident Evil 4 or Doom 2016, if not then limited saves can be annoying as hell. I'm hopeful since it's all being based around Quake and Unreal and stuff and those are games that could absolutely work with a similar save system.
1

#341

"you get a bunch of classics where limited saves enhance the experience"

By the definition of the word experience, it is subjective. I can tell you that limited saves have never ever enhanched my experience of any game and only ever led to frustration. Losing progress 20+ times in a row is NOT my idea of fun!
2

User is offline   Tea Monster 

  • Polymancer

#342

Yup. This.

Any kind of checkpoint system is filed under "console nonsense". That is not how Quake and the original classic shooters did it at all.

I loved the new Wolf games, but the checkpoint system is not a highlight, but a modern evil that has been superimposed upon an otherwise brilliant game
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User is offline   VGA 

#343

Far Cry checkpoint system made the game much more challenging and resulted in some nail-biting moments for me.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#344

Yep, one of the best gaming experiences of my life was completing XCOM: Enemy Unknown in Ironman mode on classic difficulty. Ironman is the feature some games have where your progress is saved but you can't reload a saved game so every single mistake you make is permanent, the whole game is one continous campaign where you can lose the game if you fuck up too much. That really enhances a TBS game because in XCOM you can actually lose missions and still win the game if you can recuperate from your losses. By the end of the 30 hour campaign I was at the point where I'm out if I lose one more country so winning the game was full of tension and it was amazing. :o
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User is offline   Hank 

#345

^ The developer/publisher does not promise a tactical game!
Read this: (Main page at Steam)
Fueled by legendary Quake 1 technology, the veins of WRATH pump with the DNA of revered '90s shooters. WRATH embraces the timeless elements of classic titles such as DOOM, QUAKE, DUKE NUKEM 3D, BLOOD, UNREAL and HEXEN and carries them into the 21st century.


p.s. The guy who gave me his copy of Doom2, in 1996, literally said: "Don't forget to save, Hank!" Since he knew I only owned Console games at that time. It was good advice then.

At this moment of my life I have no time to get into an RPG or Tactical Game. A simple FPS has to do. If Scype rings, or my girl wants my attention - I want a save feature.
3

User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#346

There's nothing stopping the devs from including one autosave slot that always gets overwritten with your progress every time you quit the game and then gets loaded when you start it up again so again: you're complaining about stuff you don't even know exists or not.

Edit: And btw. even if they don't do that it's a Q1 engine game meaning that it will take up minimal resources on your system so Alt-Tabbing won't affect anything.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 18 October 2019 - 05:45 PM

0

User is offline   Tea Monster 

  • Polymancer

#347

Zaxx, if you prefer doing things like that, then great.

That is NOT how the original games that are referenced as an inspiration for this title were constructed though. By this I am refering to Doom, Doom II, Quake, Quake 2 and Duke Nukem 3D. If you are selling a game that is supposed to be "a nineties shooter" then follow the path that they created.

I'm not saying that this is a dealbreaker for me.
I'm not saying that I won't buy the game due to this.
I'm not saying that I will travel to Amsterdam and personally deliver the severed head of a goat onto Fred's desk because I disagree with this decision.
I AM saying that it's silly to announce that you are going to make a game that subscribes to nineties game mechanics and then suddenly start chucking in stuff that is seen by most gamers as a particularly painful aberration of modern games.

Oh, one other thing that I am not doing, which you are, is to personally attack everyone who doesn't believe the way that you do*.
Because gamers don't like checkpoint saves, this does NOT mean that they:
1. Are scumsavers (??????)
2. Too old to play FPS games
3. Mentally challenged in some fashion and/or senile.
4. Play games on "I'm easily triggered" settings
5. Reside in Florida.
6. Are Republicans.


* I know, I keep forgetting that this is Duke4! Maybe I am a scumsaver! :o
5

User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • The Sarien Encounter

#348

Dark Forces is one of my favourite 90s shooters. No manual saves OR checkpoints. I'm not necessarily defending Wrath here, but I'm also giving it the benefit of a doubt. Manual-less saves HAS worked. In the nineties.

Saying this is a Quake-like game, though, I understand the complaint.

This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 18 October 2019 - 07:12 PM

1

User is offline   Hank 

#349

 MusicallyInspired, on 18 October 2019 - 07:11 PM, said:

Dark Forces is one of my favourite 90s shooters. No manual saves OR checkpoints. I'm not necessarily defending Wrath here, but I'm also giving it the benefit of a doubt. Manual-less saves HAS worked. In the nineties.

Saying this is a Quake-like game, though, I understand the complaint.

Until I read your post, I did not even know Dark Forces (1995) existed. :P I apologize for my blatant ignorance. :(
As I mentioned before, what ever works for you, works. :o
Sample against - most brokers in the the Stock Market run computers with actual AIs, to predict what happens in the next millisecond. Decisions to them, Yes/No will make you a looser or winner in an instant. Then, I ask myself: They can't make an old school FPS with saves with all this advancement in technology?

This time I will not delete, feel free to give me reds. :D

This post has been edited by Taamalus: 18 October 2019 - 07:46 PM

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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • The Sarien Encounter

#350

This is all moot anyway. How much you wanna bet 5 days into the release there will be a manual save mod?
1

User is offline   Hank 

#351

Is it? I'll bet those developers/publishers break again on their lofty promises. :o
[added]
OK, I'll bet, 5 month+. Introducing Saves in an overall fuck up is complex.
If I loose/ am wrong - Ten free Steam games on me. I'll talk to Yatta to distribute them. :D :P

This post has been edited by Taamalus: 18 October 2019 - 08:22 PM

2

User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • The Sarien Encounter

#352

You're on! Haha
1

User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#353

 Tea Monster, on 18 October 2019 - 05:52 PM, said:

Zaxx, if you prefer doing things like that, then great.

That is NOT how the original games that are referenced as an inspiration for this title were constructed though. By this I am refering to Doom, Doom II, Quake, Quake 2 and Duke Nukem 3D. If you are selling a game that is supposed to be "a nineties shooter" then follow the path that they created.

I may be wrong here but I don't remember the devs promoting this game as a 90s shooter per se. All I remember is 3DR saying that it's a Quake engine game developed by Quake modders / mappers, when it comes to what they were inspired by they said a bunch of stuff from Quake to Unreal, Hexen etc. On the other hand when Digital Foundry played the game they said they felt it's very similar to Turok in its world design (a game that didn't have manual saving) so really Wrath seems like a grabbag of 90s things. The weapons look like as if they were lifted from Quake, Hexen and Unreal at the same time, the level design seems similar to Unreal and Turok, the enemies mostly resemble Quake (but fuck, there's an enemy that blows up and does aoe damage that looks like the fatties from Left 4 Dead), some of the presentation is similar to Doom 2016 etc. It's a "something" from the 90s with some modern ideas here and there.

And you know what games had this exact save system? Stuff like Daikatana and Omikron, those are PC games, no?

Also: I'm pretty sure I didn't insult anyone, at least I didn't mean the use of "save scumming" as such. That's just a way to play I personally don't prefer, don't read anything more into it. This is how I use it exactly:
https://www.urbandic...save%20scumming

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 18 October 2019 - 09:43 PM

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User is offline   Jimmy 

  • Let's go Brandon!

#354

Checkpoints are just a way to artificially increase the length and difficulty of a game. They're clearly insecure of their length.
7

User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#355

That can be a reason for it, sure, for example the Resident Evil games are usually very short too when it comes to the amount of content they have but the replay value is always exceptional so I'd be very fine with an approach like that. One of my favorite games, the only game I keep the MAME emulator on my computer for is Alien vs Predator for the arcades: it takes one hour to complete at maximum but the replay value is great and getting better and better at it is very enjoyable.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 19 October 2019 - 05:14 PM

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User is offline   Jimmy 

  • Let's go Brandon!

#356

Those are both game genres where saving is not a given feature.

REMINDER: They literally had to program out the ability to save.

I get it dude, you're open to different ways to play games. I think most people here are. The problem is they're trying to sell this as a shooter that could hang with id Software, 3D Realms, Raven Software kind of 90s shooters. Saving was an essential feature to these games.
2

User is offline   Sledgehammer 

  • Once you start doubting, there's no end to it

#357

I still don't think they know what they're doing or want to, really.

This post has been edited by Sledgehammer: 20 October 2019 - 05:48 AM

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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#358

 Jim Rockford, on 19 October 2019 - 10:31 PM, said:

The problem is they're trying to sell this as a shooter that could hang with id Software, 3D Realms, Raven Software kind of 90s shooters.

The first thing people noticed when we got to see some gameplay for the first time was that it feels nothing like Quake so I guess we can only blame 3DR for marketing the game in a shitty way.
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User is offline   Jimmy 

  • Let's go Brandon!

#359

Bingo.
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#360

 Jim Rockford, on 19 October 2019 - 10:31 PM, said:

REMINDER: They literally had to program out the ability to save.

It's like I said: like taking the original engine out of a Ferrari and replacing it with the engne of a Pinto.
0

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