[QuisEstRex]

d3drocks, on May 27 2009, 03:23 AM, said:

I mentioned Ogun for hihats. I also love sytrus. the IL guys gave me toxic biohazzard for free as a bonus for doing some presets for them.
the ones I most highly suggest getting are these:
http://www.image-lin...s/toxicbio.html
I have 1 soundbank released publically for this.

http://www.image-lin...nts/sytrus.html

Sytrus is PURE GODLYNESS.
have a listen to the last demotune. done completely with sytrus.
actually, all of those songs use only sytrus.
I just like that last demotune because its badass.
I actually have alot of memories with sytrus.
I learned synthisis on it. it was my first synth I ever did presets with. probably a bad choice on my part, but man. am I ever happy I ran into it.
this is one that, if you plan on getting, I HIGHLY SUGGEST taking the discount on. its a pricey little tool, but man does it ever scream.

EDIT:
they also ahve this one: http://www.image-lin...s/morphine.html
while I dont own it, I am very farmilliar with it, and was very active with the beta version of it.
it specializes in instrument recreation. it has specal "sample chargers" which can convert samples into synthisis with a bit of tweaking. I have absolutely no idea how it works, but man, it pulls of some amaizing stuff. this is one that you should definately try the demo of first though. it can be a complicated little thing. they do have in depth tutorials for it (if you can get past the guy with an extremely heavy scottish accent.)
demosong 17 is a good example of it recreating instruments. that one is a classical guitar and a harp both following the same pattern.
ide also check out demosong 24. that one is also a good example. harps and cellos. I have used those presets, so I can tell you that its not a mockup.

their all quite good, but completely out of scene, I'm a complete metal head :-)
basically thats why I have amplitube realstrat and ezdrummer and not image-line stuff...

I'm currently building up my collection in order to accompany different live instruments so I won't depend on a band :-) I've been using VH2 because it's free and I stumbled on to it - try it, I heard it do things I though only B4 can do, and the waves are just a lucky bonus - I would never recommend anyone to buy them unless he owns a full fledged studio, their just not that cost effective (excluding my unique circumstances).
So investing in tools I won't use that much might be a big mistake...

I think I'm going for something that sounds similar to Dimmu Borgir \ early Opeth - a synth organ here, a strings quartet their, but plain hardcore heavy metal minus the vocals.

I might consider sytrus or morphine, basically because you make it sound flexible enough to fill some holes in my arsenal, but it's way down my list after stuff like NI guitarrig and a Fender strat :-)

p.s. I'm reworking the bass while I'm trying to resolve the organ issue, I allready got everything I need but it's gona take some time to squeeze out a decent bass from realstrat and amplitube...

[QuisEstRex]

New version : http://www.mediafire...php?znzzmkiomm2

very similar to before, but I dropped the reverb off the rhythm (opening) guitar (thx d3drocks) and switched the bass from a soundfont to a slapbass I hacked off realstrat and amplitube, it's hardly noticeable but trust me, it's the best synth bass ever ;-)
Most importantly I mixed down the organ since I can't find a replacement and so many folks seem to dislike it.
I'm surrounded by meany's

enjoy !

[d3drocks]

QuisEstRex, on May 27 2009, 09:20 AM, said:

New version : <a href="http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?znzzmkiomm2" target="_blank">http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?znzzmkiomm2 </a>

very similar to before, but I dropped the reverb off the rhythm (opening) guitar (thx d3drocks) and switched the bass from a soundfont to a slapbass I hacked off realstrat and amplitube, it's hardly noticeable but trust me, it's the best synth bass ever ;-)
Most importantly I mixed down the organ since I can't find a replacement and so many folks seem to dislike it.
I'm surrounded by meany's

enjoy !

not bad. getting better
for the record btw, I like the organ.

[QuisEstRex]

d3drocks, on May 27 2009, 06:26 PM, said:

not bad. getting better
for the record btw, I like the organ.

YES !!! I KNEW I WASN'T ALONE !!!
inhale, exhale...

but what next ? I think I'm all tapped out unless someone got some ideas...
also I'm waiting on feedback from MusicallyInspired or Ramen4ever on the new version, hopefully they'll think making it quieter is more then enough

[MusicallyInspired]

It's alright. Drums sound good. The guitars are still noticeably fake and that bothers me. I'll never be happy with anything else than a real guitar so I'll never use it anyway . But they sound decent enough (probably as decent as they can sound without a real guitar). And the volume of the organ isn't the problem it's the fact that it's there. You've gotta have more synth sounds than the one you had before. I think the original MIDI used Polysynth or Saw wave synth for that part. You don't have anything similar? But anyway, if you like the organ more then there's nothing else I have to say about it. It's decent.

[QuisEstRex]

MusicallyInspired, on May 27 2009, 07:05 PM, said:

It's alright. Drums sound good. The guitars are still noticeably fake and that bothers me. I'll never be happy with anything else than a real guitar so I'll never use it anyway . But they sound decent enough (probably as decent as they can sound without a real guitar). And the volume of the organ isn't the problem it's the fact that it's there. You've gotta have more synth sounds than the one you had before. I think the original MIDI used Polysynth or Saw wave synth for that part. You don't have anything similar? But anyway, if you like the organ more then there's nothing else I have to say about it. It's decent.

first off, thanks.

now, my scene isn't electronica but metal rock and blues with some jazz and classical on occasions, so my personal taste compels me to a more traditional church \ gospel \ soul style organs then electronic substitutes - in fact, the only electronica I could ever stomach was Apex Twin and even then it was a select few songs;

however, you are fully right when you say L.Jackson original was a Saw-wave, so that's why originally I tried to do one, unfortunately it's impossible for me to decide what a good saw sounds like if I don't like how it sounds in the first place :-)

So, if you can send me a clip of what you consider a good saw I'll try and recreate it, and integrate it.
also I'm working on another solution but it's still uncertain so I'm keeping it a surprise :-)

[d3drocks]

QuisEstRex, on May 27 2009, 02:04 PM, said:

first off, thanks.

now, my scene isn't electronica but metal rock and blues with some jazz and classical on occasions, so my personal taste compels me to a more traditional church \ gospel \ soul style organs then electronic substitutes - in fact, the only electronica I could ever stomach was Apex Twin and even then it was a select few songs;

however, you are fully right when you say L.Jackson original was a Saw-wave, so that's why originally I tried to do one, unfortunately it's impossible for me to decide what a good saw sounds like if I don't like how it sounds in the first place :-)

So, if you can send me a clip of what you consider a good saw I'll try and recreate it, and integrate it.
also I'm working on another solution but it's still uncertain so I'm keeping it a surprise :-)

you need a supersaw, and I've made supersaw presets for sytrus and toxic biohazzard.
there is a free vst that does them, but it does not sound all that good.

see here: http://en.wikipedia..../Roland_JP-8000

here is an example supersaw I made with Sytrus:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/t521vh

[QuisEstRex]

d3drocks, on May 27 2009, 08:49 PM, said:

you need a supersaw, and I've made supersaw presets for sytrus and toxic biohazzard.
there is a free vst that does them, but it does not sound all that good.

see here: http://en.wikipedia..../Roland_JP-8000

here is an example supersaw I made with Sytrus:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/t521vh

eh, yes, I see, yes, yes... (insert german accent here)

very well, I'll take a look and see what I can cook up :-)

as for my contingency plan:

http://www.mediafire...php?tjmymuk5dzu

this is the .wav.7z (7zip.org) without the organ\saw track.
and if anybody knows how to export each track individually without manually rendering each in reaper, I'll do that instead !

Edit: so that's a saw... awful sounds like a primitive attempt at synthesizing an organ and it's not your version specifically, it's the instrument it self, literally like a musical violin saw, only worth :-)
fine, I'll give it a try, but just in case, take a look on the contingency plan...
2nd Edit: and don't think it's your version I dislike, here you can see I know what your talking about, and I still eh, dislike it...

3rd Edit: how about a nice oscillator vst ? anyone got a free, single oscillator vst ? I have some background in electronics (the ac\dc welding resistors and capacitors kind, not the trance\house kind) so their's a small chance I might be able to stack a few of this to make something usable...

[MusicallyInspired]

I don't really think the gospel/organ blues type style suits the Duke soundtrack at all. Which is why I'm having trouble accepting that organ. In fact I think it was more 80s synth/metal inspired. I think Lee Jackson was quite partial to 80s style music actually, judging from the Duke3D soundtrack and the ROTT soundtrack especially.

Why don't you try a String Ensemble sound instead? That would sound alright.

[QuisEstRex]

The first thing that came to my head was a string ensemble, but I'm having a really hard time to believe their's a free vst for that...
o, and I'm giving synth1 and SuperWave P8 a try, seems popular with the electronica folks...

Edit:
a first attempt at a saw:

Only Saw

Mixed

I think that's the sound you guys want, but I can't use it because it has too much bass which does some god-awful things to the other tracks...

I think It can be fixed but first I need an some feedback on the thing since for the life of me I haven't got the slightest idea on what sound I'm trying to do :-)
I could really use a sample you guys consider as solid and good, worst case scenario I'll screw it up and abundant my life long dream at being a DJ

I'm going with SuperWave P8, its free and easy to use, even for a headbanger like me

[d3drocks]

QuisEstRex, on May 27 2009, 04:24 PM, said:

The first thing that came to my head was a string ensemble, but I'm having a really hard time to believe their's a free vst for that...
o, and I'm giving synth1 and SuperWave P8 a try, seems popular with the electronica folks...

Edit:
a first attempt at a saw:

Only Saw

Mixed

I think that's the sound you guys want, but I can't use it because it has too much bass which does some god-awful things to the other tracks...

I think It can be fixed but first I need an some feedback on the thing since for the life of me I haven't got the slightest idea on what sound I'm trying to do :-)
I could really use a sample you guys consider as solid and good, worst case scenario I'll screw it up and abundant my life long dream at being a DJ

I'm going with SuperWave P8, its free and easy to use, even for a headbanger like me

I can tell you used superwave P8 on this. doesnt sound all that great in my opinion. you need to fix the phasing, and the detune.
EDIT: if I recall correctly, there is a good strings preset. go through em and find the one with "strings" in the name.

[MusicallyInspired]

That sounds horrible. It's got some kind of detuned element to it and it sounds awful. Even by itself. I don't think it needs a big bombastic epic synth like you're seeming to think we think it needs. I'm not an electronica guy either. Just get a decent Saw wave. Doesn't have to be too spectacular.

[d3drocks]

MusicallyInspired, on May 27 2009, 06:33 PM, said:

That sounds horrible. It's got some kind of detuned element to it and it sounds awful. Even by itself. I don't think it needs a big bombastic epic synth like you're seeming to think we think it needs. I'm not an electronica guy either. Just get a decent Saw wave. Doesn't have to be too spectacular.

man, listen to the mp3 I showed.
its MUCH better.
as for a saw wave on its own, those sound TERRIBLE on their own.

[QuisEstRex]

d3drocks, on May 28 2009, 12:12 AM, said:

I can tell you used superwave P8 on this. doesnt sound all that great in my opinion. you need to fix the phasing, and the detune.
EDIT: if I recall correctly, there is a good strings preset. go through em and find the one with "strings" in the name.

MusicallyInspired, on May 28 2009, 12:33 AM, said:

That sounds horrible. It's got some kind of detuned element to it and it sounds awful. Even by itself. I don't think it needs a big bombastic epic synth like you're seeming to think we think it needs. I'm not an electronica guy either. Just get a decent Saw wave. Doesn't have to be too spectacular.

ok, lets see:

http://www.mediafire...php?mt4hdtzy3ut

I still haven't got the faintest idea on what I'm doing with this one, I really can't distinguish from good or bad, I might only be able to balance and fix the very most obvious of problems, hopefully
obviously I'm totally lost

[MusicallyInspired]

d3drocks, on May 27 2009, 06:00 PM, said:

man, listen to the mp3 I showed.
its MUCH better.
as for a saw wave on its own, those sound TERRIBLE on their own.

I never said a saw wave on its own. Of course they sound bad. I said a simple decent saw wave.

[QuisEstRex]

MusicallyInspired, on May 28 2009, 01:08 AM, said:

I never said a saw wave on its own. Of course they sound bad. I said a simple decent saw wave.

haven't you noticed the new sample I've made ? or are you just being diplomatic about it ? :-)

If this one doesn't work, I'll try synth1 next; just don't forget about the version I made without any synth, you can try some stuff your self and if those work you just let me know the detail and that will be the end of that sordid affair...

[MusicallyInspired]

No I didn't. I was replying to d3drocks.

EDIT: Just listened. That sounds ok. Get rid of the delay effect, though. Kinda clashes with different parts of the song as it's repeating itself.

[Dimebog]

Sounds like rendered through Guitar Pro with the latest RSE, which I really don't like, the guitar sound makes me cringe.

Good effort though.

EDIT: P.S. The loud guitar channel is panned too much to the left, that's kind of annoying with a headset.

[QuisEstRex]

MusicallyInspired, on May 28 2009, 02:20 AM, said:

No I didn't. I was replying to d3drocks.

EDIT: Just listened. That sounds ok. Get rid of the delay effect, though. Kinda clashes with different parts of the song as it's repeating itself.

the delay effect, sure, I'll give it a try, although it's in the preset - I kept it as is because like I already said, I have no clue what constitutes as good with this saw synth thingy...

Dimebog, on May 28 2009, 02:43 AM, said:

Sounds like rendered through Guitar Pro with the latest RSE, which I really don't like, the guitar sound makes me cringe.

Good effort though.

EDIT: P.S. The loud guitar channel is panned too much to the left, that's kind of annoying with a headset.

I'm using a headset too, and the panning is done in order to distinguish between the guitars - this is very common when dealing with two guitars or vocals, with respect to drum and bass;
and although this too is rendered guitars, Guitar Pro RSE doesn't come even remotely close to this, trust me, I tried...

regarding the rest of the issues you mentioned, hopefully this will be my work-flow:

- done with the synths and have them balanced - I'm currently here and kinda lagging on it since it's really not my field, so I'm making sure it's all done and proper before moving on...

- start improving the individual sounds and instruments with more care - thats were your remarks on the guitars come in, hopefully I'll be able to do something decent about those, but don't expect miracles...

- real mixing- shifting different tracks mixing up and down the board in different places during the song to fit the it's structure - thats were the panning becomes dynamic too; I'm still not quite sure how to accomplish this on reaper, but that for later...

- maybe a few FXs, though unlikely since I'm sticking to the original notation and this is a really loud and condensed track to begin with...

- touch-ups and fixes, master - who knows when...

obviously it's very flexible since I'm constantly relaying on input from the community and I'm doing it all digital so I can go back and change almost anything - meaning I can finish the master, decide I want to change something and then do another master, but hopefully it won't comes to this...

[QuisEstRex]

a sample without the delay on saw:
http://www.mediafire...php?qhczqd1cn5k

if that's it, how's the balance ? also you didn't mention anything about the drone, its P8 Yazoo preset with some reverb and limit, I think it's most appropriate but I like the organ too ;-)

[QuisEstRex]

New version:

http://www.mediafire...php?imzdofhmjmx

GrabBag remix by QuisEstRex v.A1C1
Lee Jackson (mix by QuisEstRex)

OGG file was rendered with a little more quality - plus 200kb...
replaced the organ with synths (thanks MusicallyInspired & d3drocks);
tweaked with bass guitar - the slap bass now plays a larger part
tweaked with reverb across the spectrum - mostly noticeable in the bells...
drums a little tweaked - experimental, let know what you think
many other small things details...

hopefully if people won't find the current state of things too dreadful, I'll be able to move on with mixing automation and maybe see if I can tweak the guitars some more (this will probably be delayed since theirs a lot a leeway for taste in guitar amps and effect - meaning some painful decision would be made...).

P.S: some of the changes like the drum and bass are very small, and other are practically unnoticeable even to the trained ear, so if you want to better compare between this and the previous version, I suggest you use Sonic Visualiser and load both files into different panes, then select to play the panes in solo mode, this way you can switch back and fourth to see and hear the differences.

Edit: a quick overview:

here's v.A1:


here is v.A1B1:


and here is v.A1C1:


and don't forget to comment !

[QuisEstRex]

New version:

http://www.mediafire...php?zdtluzjznky

GrabBag remix by QuisEstRex v.B1A1
Lee Jackson (mix by QuisEstRex)

This is mostly a finished version, I completed everything I planned on doing with it and then some...
I'm still open to feedback & if anyone has a major issue with something or a solid idea on how to improve it further (say, in the guitar department), I'm still listening...

enjoy
QuisEstRex

[MusicallyInspired]

Sounds great. The only thing I notice is the tubular bell is a tad too loud. Maybe the synth could be raised in volume just a tiny tiny bit. Other than that it's pretty sweet now.

[QuisEstRex]

MusicallyInspired, on May 30 2009, 08:28 AM, said:

Sounds great. The only thing I notice is the tubular bell is a tad too loud. Maybe the synth could be raised in volume just a tiny tiny bit. Other than that it's pretty sweet now.

thanks,
ok, I'm waiting for some more feedback and then I'll have it out, probably a matter of a few days, perhaps a week...

[PimpUigi]

I like the bell, not sure if it's too loud or not...

The strings at 24 seconds (are they what we've been calling synth?) sound way too quiet IMHO.
And maybe even a little delayed.
They're the hard part IMHO, I want to put this version in my eDuke32, except the strings sound so quiet to me.

[QuisEstRex]

PimpUigi, on May 31 2009, 01:08 AM, said:

I like the bell, not sure if it's too loud or not...

The strings at 24 seconds (are they what we've been calling synth?) sound way too quiet IMHO.
And maybe even a little delayed.
They're the hard part IMHO, I want to put this version in my eDuke32, except the strings sound so quiet to me.

if you knew how bad that saw sounds, you wouldn't have requested this

nevertheless, I'll increase the synth (it's called supersaw) a tad more, since you're the second person to request this, but it will only be just a little...

as for balancing in general, mixing is a part of music, and music is art so to each his own, which means I can't make one version that everybody like, so, I try playing on the weaknesses and strengths of the mix:
- the drums and bass turned out really good;
- the guitars are good compared to synth guitars and even some guitars you'll find in thrash metal and obviously early hardcore punk - but they aren't good enough to receive the spotlight like in say a Metallica album;
- the bells sound good but their still lacking compared to say Black Sabbath intro;
- and finally the synth, since I can't determine it's quality, I have to assume that when people say it's not very good, I should either replace it, quite it down a little, or rid myself of it entirely.
I tried the latter with unpopular results (me and d3drocks liked an organ I put in it's stead, but everybody including d3drocks told to use a supersaw as was intended by the original composer Lee Jackson, which I did).
and when I couldn't find anything popular to replace it with, I decided on quieting it down so it won't intrude, but still be noticeable...

on a side note, I'm still looking for a replacement for the current supersaw, this can be a better supersaw VST, or a string ensemble VST (violins); maybe something else too but that might be pushing it...

[PimpUigi]

How about you let me hear how bad it sounds???

That'd convince me.
I know there are ways to make it sound good & louder, like in Bonch's grabbag.

Which is downloadable here...
http://www.duke4.net...load.php?view.9

I'm not saying yours should sound like his or anything, just that the synth can be that loud.

Even if you just PM me what it sounds like louder, that you think is bad, to help satisfy my curiosity would be cool.
: )

[QuisEstRex]

PimpUigi, on May 31 2009, 08:48 AM, said:

How about you let me hear how bad it sounds???

That'd convince me.
I know there are ways to make it sound good & louder, like in Bonch's grabbag.

Which is downloadable here...
http://www.duke4.net...load.php?view.9

I'm not saying yours should sound like his or anything, just that the synth can be that loud.

Even if you just PM me what it sounds like louder, that you think is bad, to help satisfy my curiosity would be cool.
: )

Bonch discarded the synth almost completely, using it only for a small riff and not for the atmosphere builder it's meant to be used later, and his not following the notation, which although it sounds great, it's beyond the scope of this project...
and his guitar are way too quiet and soft compared to what I'm using, so he doesn't have the definition problems I'm experiencing...

ok, before I go any further, let's start with this minor revision :

New Version:

http://www.mediafire...php?1vdvwknoygm

GrabBag remix by QuisEstRex v.B1B1
Lee Jackson (mix by QuisEstRex)

very minor changes,
- increased synth just a little (you likely won't feel the difference if you don't use Sonic Visualiser to compare this and the previous version),
- decreased bells, almost unnoticeable, it's mainly done to fit with the synth...
- increased overall sound quality by using a less tight compression - unfortunately the file is now 2mb, the problem is it seems that both .mp3 and .ogg favour cutting the exact sound that people complain about it being lacking volume... this should resolve it...

so, I'm still working on improving certain individual sounds as per request by forum members,
I've done some experimentation with synth1 as an alternative for the current Superwave P8, but just as I found a good preset, I discovered synth1 lacks the Automation capacity to allow me to use it in any meaningful way.

to understand the sound I'm after you can check out:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=L9Jqze04dVA

in around 1:00 and 1:44 you can hear the two sounds I can use (the guy who made his presets, also made them available for the public ! what a nice guy ! ), but as you can see the sound depends on playing with certain knobs during recording, usually this action in easily manipulated through Automation were I tell reaper to change the knob on its (input parameters to the plugin) at certain places in the song, but it seems synth1 lacks this capacity, which means it's useless for me
even worth, I'm unable to duplicate this effect in P8 which means even though it supports Automation, I simply unable to do it with it

so, I'm still looking for a solution, so if you got one, let me know...

[MusicallyInspired]

That sounds better. Really carries the theme in the song now.

I've noticed something though. It sounds like the first note of the guitar at the very beginning is cut. Was that intentional?

[PimpUigi]

That does sound much better!
Wow.

This is definitely worthy of replacing my Mark cheering Grabbag eDuke32 theme.
I don't care if it's 15 MB's, this is an important track.

Is there a delay on the synth?
For some reason I keep feeling like there is, but it might be because I'm used to remixes so much.

Just for fun, I played around with it. I didn't actually touch the synth specifically though.
http://www.turbouplo...bbagPU.ogg.html

I don't notice the first guitar hit being cut...