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Random HTTKC discussion  "Split from the Ion Maiden thread"

User is offline   Nancsi 

  • 298

#31

Yea, play Mr. Splashy's or Voodoo Caves twice a day for a month, and you can be assured you won't touch a Build engine game for the rest of your life.
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User is offline   Nancsi 

  • 298

#32

View PostNightFright, on 07 May 2018 - 10:05 PM, said:

The Birth was using rejected or unused maps from Duke3D development, and at least in some maps, it kinda shows. Especially XXX-Stacy with its weird parts (that Shrinkray slime river...) and Critical Mass which just looks a bit unpolished are good examples.

Nevertheless, the atmosphere of this episode is unique and delivers this kinda oppressive and/or weird feeling, supported by Lee Jackson's excellent soundtrack. It's something that was rarely achieved again later on - maybe with Jason Bredhauer's ep.4 imitation in JJDuke.


JJDuke episode 3 used to be my favourite, it's atmosphere was very interesting. The city sounds from Shadow Warrior was an interesting touch as well, although it got carried away sometimes. Too bad the episode feels like a copy for most of the time, and it has some design flaws here and there too.
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User is offline   Daedolon 

  • Ancient Blood God
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#33

Wtf, Mr. Splashy's is one of the best maps ever done.

Lunick: I can't believe you can pre-order Duke Nukem 3D in 2016
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User is offline   axl 

  • 121

#34

View PostNancsi, on 10 May 2018 - 12:31 AM, said:

JJDuke episode 3 used to be my favourite, it's atmosphere was very interesting. The city sounds from Shadow Warrior was an interesting touch as well, although it got carried away sometimes. Too bad the episode feels like a copy for most of the time, and it has some design flaws here and there too.


Indeed, the third episode from JJDuke was amazing. Very reminiscent of the original episodes. It feels a bit like "Duke Nukem 3D the way 3D Realms did".
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User is offline   Nancsi 

  • 298

#35

View PostDaedolon, on 10 May 2018 - 01:26 AM, said:

Wtf, Mr. Splashy's is one of the best maps ever done.


That's probably my least favourite map in Caribbean. The layout is confusing, the textures are boring and too brown, and those annoying scream sounds everywhere, it was so fake.

But to each his own, I guess.

This post has been edited by Nancsi: 10 May 2018 - 02:15 AM

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User is offline   Nancsi 

  • 298

#36

View Postaxl, on 10 May 2018 - 02:08 AM, said:

Indeed, the third episode from JJDuke was amazing. Very reminiscent of the original episodes. It feels a bit like "Duke Nukem 3D the way 3D Realms did".


Some people might not know it, but the first episode was made by JonoF himself. It was pretty bad though.
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User is offline   axl 

  • 121

#37

View PostNancsi, on 10 May 2018 - 02:16 AM, said:

Some people might not know it, but the first episode was made by JonoF himself. It was pretty bad though.


Yeah, I know. Pretty bad indeed. Luckily I it didn't prevent me from starting the third episode :lol:
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User is offline   Nancsi 

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#38

View Postaxl, on 10 May 2018 - 05:42 AM, said:

Yeah, I know. Pretty bad indeed. Luckily I it didn't prevent me from starting the third episode :lol:


And there was that weird 2nd episode in space, with a mediocre starting level, then a pretty good second one, an unfinished shit third one, and a fouth that takes place in the city with the 3rd episode's atmosphere with an Overlord ending.
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User is offline   Sanek 

  • 499

#39

Excuse me guys, but I think that you're way too harsh on NW. If you think it's a bad pack, you don't know what the real bad maps is.
I've played through all Duke!Zone and Duke!Zone II, as well as Duke Xtreme. And you know what? Nuclear Winter is better than all of it. Actually, NW looks like a big improvement over Zone II, because it looks like they really tried to make it better. I can see a commerical quality here. They just don't have much time to make it as polished as Sunstorm did.
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User is offline   axl 

  • 121

#40

View PostSanek, on 10 May 2018 - 09:54 AM, said:

I've played through all Duke!Zone and Duke!Zone II, as well as Duke Xtreme. And you know what? Nuclear Winter is better than all of it. Actually, NW looks like a big improvement over Zone II, because it looks like they really tried to make it better. I can see a commerical quality here. They just don't have much time to make it as polished as Sunstorm did.


It's not because it is "better" than Duke!Zone, Duke!Zone 2 or Duke Xtreme, that NW is a "good" add-on. It just means that those were even worse.

If, as a kid, I would have spent my money back in 1997 on an add-one like NW, I would have felt cheated.
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User is offline   Forge 

  • 5,806

#41

NW got a bad rep because it was "lazy".

Two maps are remakes of original maps Hollywood Holocaust & Red Light District.
The third map, Land of Forgotten Toys, is partially a remake of a doom level and recycles the tube-drop game play of Tier Drops into an annoying way to extend the length of the level
The Backdoor is just an ugly dull sewer maze.
Here Comes Santa Claws is a short boss map with fairly basic architecture and design.

So 5 out of 7 maps are sub-par for a commercial product that cost $20 at the time of release.

If this addon had been free, it probably wouldn't get the amount of disparaging remarks that it does.
It probably wouldn't be mentioned much at all because, other than its art files, it's a fairly unremarkable episode.

This post has been edited by Forge: 10 May 2018 - 12:32 PM

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User is offline   Forge 

  • 5,806

#42

I never played the original PnP, just the one Fox ported over to eduke32.

It's okay, but it seems scatter-brained. The game-play aspects fluctuate around about as wildly as the maps. The whole thing seems disjointed; like a bunch of unrelated user made levels were thrown together to make an episode.
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User is online   Phredreeke 

  • 113

#43

View PostForge, on 10 May 2018 - 12:23 PM, said:

Two maps are remakes of original maps Hollywood Holocaust & Red Light District.


Honestly, even calling them remakes is a bit generous - I would call them hacks.
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User is offline   Nancsi 

  • 298

#44

View PostForge, on 10 May 2018 - 12:44 PM, said:

I never played the original PnP, just the one Fox ported over to eduke32.

It's okay, but it seems scatter-brained. The game-play aspects fluctuate around about as wildly as the maps. The whole thing seems disjointed; like a bunch of unrelated user made levels were thrown together to make an episode.


The first 3 levels are based on PS games of the era (Tomb Raider, Wipeout, Resident Evil) with Gates Motel having references from horror movies as well. The 4th level is a Tarantino homage. The last two are "OK, let's finish this stuff and get the paycheck".

I actually think the gameplay in these levels, particularly in Nightmare Zone and Trackside Tragedy captured the dynamic of the original episodes very well. Adding the amount of flickering lights, cyclers, shadings, it's not that outrageous to say the episode is closer to what Allen Blum or Levelord mastered than Duke it out in DC, where you spend most of your time in empty gray hallways without sounds, shadings, and even enemies sometimes.
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User is offline   Sanek 

  • 499

#45

View PostForge, on 10 May 2018 - 12:23 PM, said:

NW got a bad rep because it was "lazy".

Two maps are remakes of original maps Hollywood Holocaust & Red Light District.
The third map, Land of Forgotten Toys, is partially a remake of a doom level and recycles the tube-drop game play of Tier Drops into an annoying way to extend the length of the level
The Backdoor is just an ugly dull sewer maze.
Here Comes Santa Claws is a short boss map with fairly basic architecture and design.

So 5 out of 7 maps are sub-par for a commercial product that cost $20 at the time of release.

If this addon had been free, it probably wouldn't get the amount of disparaging remarks that it does.
It probably wouldn't be mentioned much at all because, other than its art files, it's a fairly unremarkable episode.


When I played it for the first time, I thought it was very good. The only levels I played before is a Nuke It! CD with over 300 user levels. I don't think that NW's reputation alone is the reason why you shouldn't play it - you have to judge for yourself!

Maps 1 and 2 is remakes, but the fact that you play it in reverse, and other changes made it look like a relatively new expierence.
Map 3 features that awful Tier Drops-like part and Doom's E1M1 was the old thing even back then, but other parts of the map is OK.
Santa's HQ is the best map of the episode
Backdoor...yeah, it look dull. Xmas Village is a good map. And the final map is a fitting, if short conclusion to the whole thing.
Sillysoft didn't have time, money and everything else to make it better, but at least they made it better than Zone II. It must be appreciated.
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User is offline   Forge 

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#46

View PostSanek, on 10 May 2018 - 04:44 PM, said:

I don't think that NW's reputation alone is the reason why you shouldn't play it - you have to judge for yourself!

Personally the only two maps I don't like are:
Land of Forgotten Toys - mostly because of the crappy way they implemented the tube-drop puzzle just to stretch out the length of the map - it's annoying.
The Backdoor - it's an ugly, dull, boring, unimaginative map.

The rest of it is decent enough, including the two episode 1 map remakes.
Posted Image


Still not worth $20 to me though.

This post has been edited by Forge: 10 May 2018 - 05:57 PM

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User is online   Phredreeke 

  • 113

#47

I wouldn't tell anyone not to play Nuclear Winter. That said no sense in trying to cover for its flaws either.

IMO the Doom E1M1 recreation is the best part of Land of the Forgotten Toys. I also actually like the idea of revisiting old maps, just that in context of an already short expansion pack (7 SP levels + 1 DM level. For comparison DC has 10 levels) it feels very cheap. (still better than The Backdoor though!)
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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

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#48

I love revisiting old maps too. In fact one time, inspired by a user nap that turned HH into an alien base, I did the same to RLD and it was a lot of fun. I don't have it anymore but I wish I did.

Roland SC-55 Music Packs
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Duke3D, Doom, Descent, Hocus Pocus, and more...
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User is offline   Sanek 

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#49

View PostForge, on 10 May 2018 - 05:52 PM, said:

Personally the only two maps I don't like are:
Land of Forgotten Toys - mostly because of the crappy way they implemented the tube-drop puzzle just to stretch out the length of the map - it's annoying.
The Backdoor - it's an ugly, dull, boring, unimaginative map.

The rest of it is decent enough, including the two episode 1 map remakes.

Ok, I have the same opinion about NW. I just think it's kinda underrated and people is beyond harsh about it.
If people shit NW for it's lazy levels, it's not difficult to predict what'll happen to Deadly Kiss! No love for Sillysoft here. :(
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User is online   Phredreeke 

  • 113

#50

I don't think the NW-Deadly Kiss comparison is valid. My understanding is they had entirely different map designers. Also, Nuclear Winter was rushed for a holiday release while Deadly Kiss was dropped because SW didn't sell as well as expected.


This post has been edited by Phredreeke: 11 May 2018 - 04:48 AM

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User is offline   Forge 

  • 5,806

#51

It comes down to $.
NW was unpolished and used recycled material. People felt ripped off, and rightly so.
Unless Hendricks decides to charge money for DK, and then releases it in a half-baked state, there's no comparison.

That, and people have been making fun of the 'weird kid' for so long, it's now just part of the culture. If you don't join in, you have your values and map judging skills questioned.
Kinda like banging the fugly person back in high-school; it was fun and felt good, but don't ever tell anyone.
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User is offline   Jimmy 

  • Duke4 Thot Patrol
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#52

The only reason we didn't release DK was because it's in a half baked state.

My only other comment in that is to stress half baked people release half baked goods and it's a shame.

""Long awaited sequel" switching to the Unreal engine? What could possibly go wrong?" - Micky C
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