[underTaker]

Hello,
not sure if right forum, but couldn't find anything more like it

I thought it would be really useful thing to add something like selecting a sector via ALT + CTRL, but in 3D mode (for later usage with CTRL + R). Sometimes when I've got bunch of sectors stacked over eachother it gets almost impossible to nicely edit.
If, however, there is a similar thing but I'm too crappy at finding keys, I'd like to hear some advices.

[Paul B]

I was thinking about a new feature as well but didn't feel like creating a new thread for it. Since this thread has surfaced i'll post my thoughts here.


A lot of times the most annoying and time consuming thing in Mapster is building 3D sprite objects. Let's call these objects furniture. It would be cool if you could select all the sprites associated to the furniture object and group them in a group to move them around and position them like a single sprite without having to select all associated sprites each time you want to move the prefab furniture object. It might also be handy, if need be, to degroup the sprite furniture object as well. Once the individual items were all grouped as a furniture item if there was a way to save their position configuration as a tileart object to select them for adding and removing them from a map. This would give the mapper the ability to choose from a bunch of different prefab sprite objects within Mapster to furnish their map without having to reinvent the wheel.

If this was possible it would be nice to have a sprite furniture object container which can be used to import and export everyone's innovative sprite furniture objects creations with a way to tag the index of the object to maybe the creators name to be donated to the community for importing these objects for furnishing other maps.

Just throwing that out there it sure would make mapping less time consuming and more focused on creating the floor plan.

[blizzart]

Paul B, on 27 August 2015 - 06:00 AM, said:

I was thinking about a new feature as well but didn't feel like creating a new thread for it. Since this thread has surfaced i'll post my thoughts here.


A lot of times the most annoying and time consuming thing in Mapster is building 3D sprite objects. Let's call these objects furniture. It would be cool if you could select all the sprites associated to the furniture object and group them in a group to move them around and position them like a single sprite without having to select all associated sprites each time you want to move the prefab furniture object. It might also be handy, if need be, to degroup the sprite furniture object as well. Once the individual items were all grouped as a furniture item if there was a way to save their position configuration as a tileart object to select them for adding and removing them from a map. This would give the mapper the ability to choose from a bunch of different prefab sprite objects within Mapster to furnish their map without having to reinvent the wheel.

If this was possible it would be nice to have a sprite furniture object container which can be used to import and export everyone's innovative sprite furniture objects creations with a way to tag the index of the object to maybe the creators name to be donated to the community for importing these objects for furnishing other maps.

Just throwing that out there it sure would make mapping less time consuming and more focused on creating the floor plan.

I don´t know if I understand you right, but isn´t that something you could do with RightShift?

But I was also thinking of creating a map with sprite prefabs lately. Maybe this could be something, were the communty can work on together?

[Paul B]

blizzart, on 27 August 2015 - 06:30 AM, said:

I don´t know if I understand you right, but isn´t that something you could do with RightShift?

But I was also thinking of creating a map with sprite prefabs lately. Maybe this could be something, were the communty can work on together?

I am trying to avoid using the right shift to select all associated sprites. Sometimes complications can arise where verticies or other over lapping areas can get in the way of being able to successfully move sprite grouped objects around. It's annoying to have to deselect areas once you've selected a sprite object. What I am proposing is having this sprite object grouped already together where the individual sprites become a member of an object. So by selecting one associate sprite you actually select the entire sprite object and its associated sprites without having to select them with the right shift key.

Yes, this definitely would be a community project for all mappers, artists to work together to build a museum of well crafted sprite furniture objects which can be dragged around and placed in any area of a map. These objects could be imported and exported into peoples Mapster folder to be used in any map. Much like you would see in a 3D Home builder software where you select furniture to arrange in your virtual 3D house plans.

Once a prefab group has been created the author should be able to add an embedded signature to the object with a time & date stamp to identify his contribution to the collection so no one feels like their creativity is going unnoticed. This could be associated to some hidden element of the grouped furniture item which once created can't be edited or modified unless its rebuilt and regrouped.

But this sprite furniture would definitely make it easier and faster to move, arrange, position and rotate the furniture with ease.

[underTaker]

I agree with Paul. It's related to problem I'm currently having - too many things stacked at small area making it really hard if not impossible to edit. Single click at one of furniture's elements selecting the whole "model" would be really helpful. True, you can use right shift + ' key, but there also may be another sprites around that arent neccessary related with the furniture itself.

[The Mechanic]

Paul B, on 27 August 2015 - 06:57 AM, said:

Yes, this definitely would be a community project for all mappers, artists to work together to build a museum of well crafted sprite furniture objects which can be dragged around and placed in any area of a map. These objects could be imported and exported into peoples Mapster folder to be used in any map. Much like you would see in a 3D Home builder software where you select furniture to arrange in your virtual 3D house plans.

Funny enough, I'd been thinking of adding a database of sprite objects, though hadn't thought of then having them remain grouped forever (or until the user specifically un-grouped them). I think the first part oughta be fairly easy - save selected sprites as some (probably new) file type, import sprites form a file (adjusting their 'z' to the current sector and leaving them as currently selected). Think having persistent groups might be a lot more involved though, I suspect it would need new data structures and not sure how to persist it in the current map file format. One workaround - not ideal I grant you - might be the option to select a few sprites that you could press a key and it searches the model files for best fit, which could be extended such that you could select a group based on current "player" height in case there is a vertical stack of identical objects (e.g. as would be used in a crane).

Again, thinking out loud, the sprite file should be human readable and allow specifying an image that could be displayed as an appropeiate tile (the user would have to manually edit the file - hence text readable). It would also make sense to make it accessible via the existing tile menu ('V' key) then pressing say 'L' for library ? (Could be accessed via a single key press but mapster is running out of keys!).

Thoughts ?

I'm not yet familiar enough with the source code to even dream about adding grouping but I think I could do the library files bit.

TTFN,
Jon

[The Mechanic]

underTaker, on 26 August 2015 - 07:49 AM, said:

Hello,
I thought it would be really useful thing to add something like selecting a sector via ALT + CTRL, but in 3D mode (for later usage with CTRL + R). Sometimes when I've got bunch of sectors stacked over eachother it gets almost impossible to nicely edit.

Have you tried the - whatsitcalled - orthoganal(?) view (F3 key while in 2D mode) ? With suitable manouvering you can usually get to select a specific sector.

TTFN,
Jon

[underTaker]

Yup, could be helpful for simpler sectors, but still it's pain in ass for more advanced things. See the screenshot.

Attached thumbnail(s)

• 

[The Mechanic]

underTaker, on 27 August 2015 - 01:18 PM, said:

Yup, could be helpful for simpler sectors, but still it's pain in ass for more advanced things. See the screenshot.

I feel your pain.

Does seem kinda logical for [ctrl]-[right-alt] and it's ['] and [;] variants to work in 3d mode (if you could live without them being highlighted or visually presented differently whilst in 3D mode).

TTFN,
Jon

[Mark]

Looking at that screenshot reminds me, is there already a script to turn off the display of sprites in 2d mode so you can get a better look at sectors when zoomed in close. Right now they disappear only when zoomed far out.

[underTaker]

That wouldn't actually help too much, as the problem is too many sectors overlapping themselves, making it impossible to select or edit the one sector that I want to. My screenshot shows two floors over each other, which looks pretty bad for editing already, but sometimes I cope with 3 or more sectors, what looks even worse.

[The Mechanic]

underTaker, on 01 September 2015 - 11:46 PM, said:

That wouldn't actually help too much, as the problem is too many sectors overlapping themselves, making it impossible to select or edit the one sector that I want to. My screenshot shows two floors over each other, which looks pretty bad for editing already, but sometimes I cope with 3 or more sectors, what looks even worse.

I think Mark was suggesting an additional mod, not necessarily something that would help your case.

Anyhow, as regards selecting a sector in 3D mode, I've implemented ctrl-alt in 3D mode and will submit a patch in due course (need to check I've done it the right way). I've assumed that in TROR scenarios that sector selection should _not_ be influenced by the sector gray-out stuff (ctrl-a/shift-ctrl-a stuff)(thinking about it that's probably a requirement as 3d mode can have a bad habit of moving the cursor position and hence effect grayed stuff).

As for hiding sprites, this is another good suggestion. I do run into issues sometimes where I'm trying to tag a wall but can't because nearby sprites stop the wall from getting attention, for example trying to tag a wall on a ST20 door containing activators, SE's and music. Anyone care to suggest a key to toggle sprite hiding on an off ? And should this be extended to 3D mode as well (either all sprites, or just the SE's, M's, A's etc) which can get in the way when trying to tile in cramped sectors) ?

TTFN,
Jon

[underTaker]

Hmm, maybe I didn't pay enough attention - happens sometimes to me.

Quote

Anyhow, as regards selecting a sector in 3D mode, I've implemented ctrl-alt in 3D mode and will submit a patch in due course

I love you.

[Mark]

How about SE's not having blocking turned on by default. That way, if they are in your way you can still pass through them. Very helpful for close inside mapping in 3D mode. It would be handy for enemies too but that would open a can of worms because you want them blocking in the game.

[The Mechanic]

Mark., on 02 September 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

How about SE's not having blocking turned on by default. That way, if they are in your way you can still pass through them. Very helpful for close inside mapping in 3D mode. It would be handy for enemies too but that would open a can of worms because you want them blocking in the game.

Sounds reasonable; if inserting {S,A,M,L,L+...}, or changing an existing sprite to {S,A,M,L,L+...} then make it non-blocking, changing away from these to regular sprites should switch blocking back on. I think this has probably become more important now that the blocking state of a sprite isn't shown in 2d mode. Have to admit the change to the way sprites are coloured in 2D mode (tile colour instead of blocking state) is growing on me - it's not much cop (or should that be no worse) when building structures as the sprite colours tend to be very close but having looked at some other maps things like switches do stand out. The flip side is I think that means mapster needs to be a little smarter about auto-setting initial sprite blocking states (for example, what about the water fountain?).

As regards being able to hide sprites during 2D and orthogonal (is that the right word?) editing, anyone here with better knowledge than me on scripting know if this sounds scriptable ? It feels like it oughta be.

TTFN,
Jon

[underTaker]

I just have checked out your update, Mechanic, regarding the ALT + CTRL selection in 3D - works like a charm, except the sector is not being visually highlighted - just a minor bug. Yet - it's huge improvement and it allowed me to finally progress further with my map. Big thanks to you!

[The Mechanic]

underTaker, on 05 September 2015 - 01:45 PM, said:

I just have checked out your update, Mechanic, regarding the ALT + CTRL selection in 3D - works like a charm, except the sector is not being visually highlighted - just a minor bug.

It's not a bug - it is by design. Currently there isn't any code for adding editing-related highlighting in 3D mode and to do so would mean a shed load of code, whereas the current implementation was mostly a matter of finding the right three existing functions to hijack. A weenie little text message showing the selected/deselected sector number does appear in the bottom left, it was the only reasonable way of providing feedback I could think of. Anyhow, glad it is still useful.

TTFN,
Jon

[Micky C]

The Mechanic, on 06 September 2015 - 12:34 AM, said:

It's not a bug - it is by design. Currently there isn't any code for adding editing-related highlighting in 3D mode and to do so would mean a shed load of code, whereas the current implementation was mostly a matter of finding the right three existing functions to hijack. A weenie little text message showing the selected/deselected sector number does appear in the bottom left, it was the only reasonable way of providing feedback I could think of. Anyhow, glad it is still useful.

TTFN,
Jon

That's not true, mapster32 shows highlighted sectors in 3D mode with either pal 6 or 8 (can't remember which) when show map shade preview is enabled.

[The Mechanic]

Micky C, on 06 September 2015 - 12:46 AM, said:

That's not true, mapster32 shows highlighted sectors in 3D mode with either pal 6 or 8 (can't remember which) when show map shade preview is enabled.

Wow, I never knew of that feature (Apostrophe ( ' ) + X). Would never have guessed map shade preview was in fact highlight selected sectors, that is definitely useful - and I note my mod does not update the highlight, so yeah, technically a bug, you were right underTaker. I'll take another look.

[Edit] OK, I looked. Just one more function needs to be called, I've alerted Helixhorned to the fix

Damn, with so many features Mapster really does need a proper menu system.

TTFN,
Jon

[Micky C]

It wasn't originally; the function traditionally shows sprites as their in-game shade, based on either floor shade or ceiling if it's under a sky.

I agree that mapster should have a proper menu system. Most of us old-timers probably wouldn't use it since shortcuts are fast, however for people who want to get into mapping, or become more aware of mapsters features it could be useful. Plus a mouse-driven interface for some of the finer things like altering sprite values with F8 will feel more polished.

Features have been added to either the program or script files to try to make it more intuitive, such as displaying what tags do what when you point at the sprite, but I imagine if some kind of mouse-driven visual interface were to be added, it could be customized and built-on to pull off some pretty cool things. Like toggle between settings that allow you to exclusively work on walls vs sprites etc. Add too many toggles like that without some kind of visual interface to keep track of it then things get mixed up fast. Other sorts of features could benefit in the same way.

[The Mechanic]

Micky C, on 06 September 2015 - 02:51 AM, said:

I agree that mapster should have a proper menu system. Most of us old-timers probably wouldn't use it since shortcuts are fast, however for people who want to get into mapping, or become more aware of mapsters features it could be useful. Plus a mouse-driven interface for some of the finer things like altering sprite values with F8 will feel more polished.

I agree, it's like Windows having a file-save menu, you very soon just do ctrl-s but menus are still great for finding out what a program can do. I suspect there won't be many noobs to mapster so little value implementing menus for solely that reason. However, there are some tricky keyboard combinations that I need two hands for, which means letting go of the mouse, plus we are running out of spare keys for any future new features; I even had to draw the keyboard out and play bingo just to find the 'K' key was spare (I use it for 2D/3D mode switch on a numberpad-less keyboard).

Probably the most useful UI is the context menu, I wonder if right-click could at least pop up a "menu" in the bottom of the screen (e.g. where F7, F8, etc would display there info), and maybe that area could also be used for emulating simple dialogs (probably text based). Something to mull over me thinks (though TBH I'm probably just talking vapourware at the moment).

TTFN,
Jon

[Mblackwell]

So the right click that's already used for a bunch of other things would now pop up a menu?

[Mark]

^ Use the middle mouse button.

[The Mechanic]

Mblackwell, on 06 September 2015 - 07:28 AM, said:

So the right click that's already used for a bunch of other things would now pop up a menu?

No, existing functionality must be preserved. I used "right-click" as an example, since it is the context button for Windoze and Linux. No, definitely wouldn't replace ability to move around with right mouse, that's infinitely more useful than a popup menu!

Mark's suggestion of the middle button is an option, the other is the menu is activated on right-button-up which would work such that existing right-button functionality wouldn't be impacted (for example a mouse down->up in a short time), or ctrl-right-click?. I dunno, just thoughts at the moment, but rest assured no intention of mucking up existing functionality - promise - and besides I would very much doubt such a patch would be accepted into Mapster anyway.

TTFN,
Jon