[Futuretime23]

 johnnythewolf, on 20 March 2019 - 01:59 PM, said:

Which I still do not get, as again, the Doom franchise never really faltered and in fact several years prior to Doom 2016's announcement made it back into the spotlight quite spectacularly thanks to mods like Brutal Doom and Andrew Hulshult's remake of the soundtracks.

Honestly, I just cannot see how Duke Nukem could become a hit again at this point. As I said, I do not think the character could still draw in a mainstream audience, as players nowadays tend to prefer protagonists that are either more realistic and have some depth to them or grimdark edgelords who literally do not joke around. The Duke Nukem Bullestorm DLC gave us a perfect example of just how silly he would look in this day and age, especially if he is to be portrayed as he was in DN3D and DNF, i.e. as an unoriginal narcissistic douchebag who somehow still manages to be idolised by practically everyone. If anything, Duke Nukem Forever's failure felt in many ways like the character finally getting his comeuppance for his hubris and his unwillingness to get with the times.

While I liked Shadow Warrior 2013 for the way it managed to reimagine a horribly racist stereotype into an actually likeable protagonist and get him to embark on a pretty compelling quest, I cannot deny that it is still kind of a mediocre game, in part due to being essentially a spiritual successor to Flying Wild Hog's fairly average Hard Reset. I did not like Shadow Warrior 2 as much, but it still sold much better and was technically a superior game. While it would be definitely interesting to see Duke Nukem be given a similar treatment, I do not think it would be enough to make it another blockbuster.

I can sort of see a Duke Nukem game done in the style of the new Wolfenstein games, but not how it could avoid coming across as a complete rip-off, and not just because its incarnation of BJ Blazkowicz already looks so much like Duke Nukem without his sunglasses.

Finally, I just cannot imagine a Duke Nukem game done in the style of Doom 2016. I am not saying it is not possible, but I just cannot see how it would work.

Using DNF Duke or Bulletstorm Duke as examples of Duke as a character is fucking laughable. That's not Duke in the slightest. While Duke was (and still is) a fairly simple character, compare the stuff he says in 3D, TTK, ZH and particularly LOTB (where he typically has conversations with people) to the shit in DNF or Bulletstorm and you can see it's not even the same character. Duke was generally far more serious in his classic incarnations - in fact, Broussard has gone on record stating he was a HOMAGE, not a parody to the action stars of the 80s and 90s. That's not to say he had no humor, but he didn't go around saying LOOKS LIKE UR FUCKD to a bunch of impregnated raped women. By comparison, his attitude in DN3D when mercy killing a woman was to be very pissed off (and who wouldn't be in the first place) Not to mention, he was nowhere as douchey nor as narcissistic in the classic incarnations either.

[johnnythewolf]

 Futuretime23, on 20 March 2019 - 03:15 PM, said:

Using DNF Duke or Bulletstorm Duke as examples of Duke as a character is fucking laughable.

Not really. You may argue that he is portrayed differently than he used to, but that is still Duke Nukem and how he is known nowadays.

 Futuretime23, on 20 March 2019 - 03:15 PM, said:

Broussard has gone on record stating he was a HOMAGE, not a parody to the action stars of the 80s and 90s.

I would argue that Duke Nukem does not even really work as a homage, as successful action stars of the 80s and 90s tended to have more going on with them than just being buff wisecracking dudes. Characters like StarCraft's Jim Raynor, Metal Gear Solid's Solid Snake even Devil May Cry's Dante work better in that regard.

 Futuretime23, on 20 March 2019 - 03:15 PM, said:

By comparison, his attitude in DN3D when mercy killing a woman was to be very pissed off (and who wouldn't be in the first place)

"Very pissed off"? He just says "Damn..." in a monotonous voice and then moves on with his day.

 Kathy, on 20 March 2019 - 03:09 PM, said:

I don't remember, but did DNF have not first-view cutscenes? Bulletstorm's Duke looks stupid because it doesn't belong there (script wasn't change aside from Duke talk, right?) and because cutscenes are not from his(first-person) perspective.

The character does acknowledge that he does not belong there on numerous occasions, but what makes him look stupid for me is the way he looks.

 Kathy, on 20 March 2019 - 03:09 PM, said:

And, once again, this is why I'd prefer to keep personality to absolute minimum anyway. And yeah, interaction with other characters is a point where it might become stupid.

That might be hard to do, as Duke has always been a rather talkative character. Making him silent would be a repetition of SiN: Emergence in that regard.

[Futuretime23]

 johnnythewolf, on 20 March 2019 - 03:41 PM, said:

Not really. You may argue that he is portrayed differently than he used to, but that is still Duke Nukem and how he is known nowadays.



I would argue that Duke Nukem does not even really work as a homage, as successful action stars of the 80s and 90s had more going on than just being buff wisecracking dudes; heck, even the wisecracking part did not involve stealing catchphrases and quoting popular culture.



"Very pissed off"? He just says "Damn..." in a monotonous voice and then moves on with his day.

1. No, point still stands. That's Duke Nukem in name only. For any Duke fan worth his salt, this is consistently one of the biggest criticisms about DNF and post DNF incarnations of the character. There's a reason he's called DOUCHE Nukem nowadays. And if this is how's he's known, then simple, fix it. Go back to the old more positively received versions of the character and then build from there. Don't fucking build off of Douche Nukem.
2. I should probably have added that Duke was also conceived as a cross of Dirty Harry, Arnold and John Wayne. I disagree with it not working on the basis that it does capture the spirit of being like an action hero of that era, even if the stuff Duke says 9 times out of 10 isn't the most original. Much like heroes of that era, duke's a buff wisecracking dude who takes no shit from anyone, often delivers a badass quip at the moment of stylishly killing off an enemy or doing something extreme action wise, and obviously rescuing the girl. Adding as well a bit of black humor every now and then.
3. He sounds rather angry, and that's not the only thing he says, he also says Damn it! in a noticeably upset tone.

[johnnythewolf]

 Futuretime23, on 20 March 2019 - 03:49 PM, said:

For any Duke fan worth his salt, this is consistently one of the biggest criticisms about DNF and post DNF incarnations of the character.

Duke Nukem 3D's Duke already has his own fast-food chain, loves looking at himself, objectifies women - more specifically sex workers - to the point where he only cares about saving "his babes" from the aliens, laughs at the sight of dead beloved pop culture icons and literally takes a dump on an enemy corpse. Also, in Duke Nukem II, the character gets abducted while promoting his book called "Why I Am So Great" and at the end actually entertains - even briefly - the idea of using the Rigelatins' ship to rule over the Earth as its king and admits he would have liked to see "Detroit boil off into space".

Let us face it: Duke Nukem has always been a narcissistic douche. If anything, the only real difference in terms of character is that we get to see much more of him in Duke Nukem Forever.

 Futuretime23, on 20 March 2019 - 03:49 PM, said:

2. I should probably have added that Duke was also conceived as a cross of Dirty Harry, Arnold and John Wayne.

John Wayne is not an action star of the 80s and 90s. Heck, he was no longer alive by that time!

 Futuretime23, on 20 March 2019 - 03:49 PM, said:

He sounds rather angry, and that's not the only thing he says, he also says Damn it! in a noticeably upset tone.

I would say he sounds mildly annoyed at best, like when he gets to kill the Babe Land mascot.

[Futuretime23]

 johnnythewolf, on 20 March 2019 - 04:12 PM, said:

Duke Nukem 3D's Duke already has his own fast-food restaurant chain, loves looking at himself, objectifies women - more specifically sex workers - to the point where he only cares about saving "his babes" from the aliens and is literally shown taking a dump on an enemy corpse. Also, in Duke Nukem II, the character gets abducted while promoting his book called "Why I Am So Great" and at the end actually entertains the idea of using the Rigelatins' ship to rule over the Earth as its king and admits he would have liked to see "Detroit boil off into space".

Let us face it: Duke Nukem has always been a narcissistic douche. If anything, the only real difference in terms of character is that we get to see much more of him in Duke Nukem Forever.



John Wayne is not an action star of the 80s and 90s. Heck, he was no longer alive by that time!



He sounds mildly annoyed as best, like when he gets to kill the Babe Land mascot.

1. I never said he wasn't narcissistic or douchey - I said he was nowhere near as much in the classic games. DON'T twist my words, kthx. He still didn't say LOOKS LIKE UR FUCKED or make anus jokes in a serious dark level (the hive) or "Look at that, you can see my dick from here!" or anything even remotely as idiotic in DN3D or other classic duke games for that matter (and those are SOME examples from DNF. I have more)
2. I included that info because that's what Broussard told me on a public livestream regarding duke as a character and thought it would be an interesting thing to mention. Yes I'm aware Wayne died long before then. (tbf, I should have put this as a separate point. It's an interesting bit of trivia I remembered right then and there and thought of bringing it up)
3. Nah, he sounds way more pissed than annoyed if you compare the 2 pod girl kill lines to the babe land mascot line - besides, in DNF one of his lines when he kills a woman is "Why do they always take the hot ones?" DN3D Duke (the only other duke game with podgirls you kill) ALWAYS sounds pissed and NEVER says anything as moronic as DNF Duke. It's even stranger because his other podgirl kill lines in DNF are more along in lines with traditional Duke, so I have no clue what the fuck happened with the writing there.

Also, how in the fuck does Duke objectify women? Are you gonna tell me Duke's misogynist and a sexist now? I don't recall him ever telling the girls in LOTB (where they had the biggest role) that they couldn't do their job or anything like that.

[Ninety-Six]

 johnnythewolf, on 20 March 2019 - 04:12 PM, said:

Duke Nukem 3D's Duke already has his own fast-food chain, loves looking at himself, objectifies women - more specifically sex workers - to the point where he only cares about saving "his babes" from the aliens, laughs at the sight of dead beloved pop culture icons and literally takes a dump on an enemy corpse. Also, in Duke Nukem II, the character gets abducted while promoting his book called "Why I Am So Great" and at the end actually entertains - even briefly - the idea of using the Rigelatins' ship to rule over the Earth as its king and admits he would have liked to see "Detroit boil off into space".

Let us face it: Duke Nukem has always been a narcissistic douche. If anything, the only real difference in terms of character is that we get to see much more of him in Duke Nukem Forever.

"Looks like you're fucked."

vs.

"This really pisses me off" x2


Nah bro

[johnnythewolf]

 Futuretime23, on 20 March 2019 - 04:22 PM, said:

Are you gonna tell me Duke's misogynist and a sexist now?

But he is. I do not see how this is somehow a controversial statement to make, especially now.

 Futuretime23, on 20 March 2019 - 04:22 PM, said:

Also, how in the fuck does Duke objectify women?

Well, for starters, he treats them more or less like his property? I mean, that is literally why he is pissed at the aliens: not because they attacked Earth in the first place, but because they stole his chicks!

And of course, there is the fact that the only interaction he ever seems capable of having with the women he runs into in DN3D is to ask them to dance for his pleasure?

[Ninety-Six]

Oh boy here we go.

 johnnythewolf, on 20 March 2019 - 04:31 PM, said:

Well, for starters, he treats them more or less like his property? I mean, that is literally why he is pissed at the aliens: not because they attacked Earth in the first place, but because they stole his chicks!

There's a pretty big difference between a hedonist and a misogynist. The definition of misogyny is a hatred of women. Duke is very clearly not that.

 johnnythewolf, on 20 March 2019 - 04:31 PM, said:

And of course, there is the fact that the only interaction he ever has with the women he runs into is to ask them to dance for his pleasure?

D'ya ever consider that was because they were the only NPCs to interact with at all?

[Futuretime23]

 johnnythewolf, on 20 March 2019 - 04:31 PM, said:

But he is. I do not see how this is somehow a controversial statement to make, especially now.



Well, for starters, he treats them more or less like his property? I mean, that is literally why he is pissed at the aliens: not because they attacked Earth in the first place, but because they stole his chicks!

And of course, there is the fact that the only interaction he ever has with the women he runs into is to ask them to dance for his pleasure?

1. Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. Ninety six has already explained it for me, but no, at no point does Duke ever hate women, nor does he belittle them for their work. He likes tits and ass and likes expressing that and loves to flirt with women. That doesn't make him a sexist, especially when he's telling it to a stripper ffs.
2. Also bullshit, he's clearly upset about the aliens either way, them taking the chicks was just salt on top of an open wound. (Of course DNF's moronic writing misinterpreted this thanks guys!)
3. 90% of the npcs you find are fucking strippers, what the hell did you expect Duke to say to a working stripper? The other 10% the podgirls, If interacted with, the podgirls will say "kill me" and Duke will remain silent. He says no quips, no nothing, and killing them will make Duke angry.

[Ninety-Six]

 Futuretime23, on 20 March 2019 - 04:40 PM, said:

3. 90% of the npcs you find are fucking strippers, The other 10% the podgirls

More like the other way around, considering the strippers appear in a grand total of one level (two if you count AWO). I barely even consider the podgirls as NPCs. But I suppose they technically are; nevertheless my point remains.

[johnnythewolf]

 Ninety-Six, on 20 March 2019 - 04:34 PM, said:

Oh boy here we go.

Why so sensitive all of a sudden? Were you not accusing others of being "pussies" not so long ago?

Look, I like Duke Nukem 3D and I do not hate Duke Nukem; I do not see why it is so offensive to point out that he is not exactly an icon of virtue.

 Ninety-Six, on 20 March 2019 - 04:34 PM, said:

There's a pretty big difference between a hedonist and a misogynist.

Are you honestly reducing hedonism to an obsession with sex workers?

 Ninety-Six, on 20 March 2019 - 04:34 PM, said:

The definition of misogyny is a hatred of women.

No, it is much more than that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

 Ninety-Six, on 20 March 2019 - 04:34 PM, said:

D'ya ever consider that was because they were the only NPCs to interact with at all?

D'ya ever consider why they had to be the only NPCs to interact with at all?

[Futuretime23]

 johnnythewolf, on 20 March 2019 - 04:55 PM, said:

Why so sensitive all of a sudden? Were you not accusing others of being "pussies" not so long ago?

Look, I like Duke Nukem 3D and I do not hate Duke Nukem; I do not see why it is so offensive to point out that he is not exactly an icon of virtue.



Are you honestly reducing hedonism to an obsession with sex workers?



No, it is much more than that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny



D'ya ever consider why they had to be the only NPCs to interact with at all?

This is the last thing I'll comment on because this is quite frankly, the most moronic discussion I've ever seen.
"Misogyny manifests in numerous ways, including social exclusion, sex discrimination, hostility, androcentrism, patriarchy, male privilege, belittling of women, disenfranchisement of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification."
Practically none of these apply to Duke EXCEPT MAYBE AT FIRST GLANCE sexual objectification but once you look deeper (going off LOTB and other duke games including 3D), he's 100% of the times just flirting with the women. He doesn't treat them as an object (again, pay attention to virtually all his dialogue in LOTB and it's clear he sees Jane as his equal, just as one example) at worst he is a bit flirtatious and likes TnA.

[Ninety-Six]

 johnnythewolf, on 20 March 2019 - 04:55 PM, said:

Why so sensitive all of a sudden? Were you not accusing others of being "pussies" not so long ago?

Considering we live in a world where air conditioners are considered sexist, I stand by my statement. Also I crossed it out because it was kind of a joke. That you are harping on it days later makes me considerably question things.

 johnnythewolf, on 20 March 2019 - 04:55 PM, said:

No, it is much more than that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

I retract my point and hand it to futuretime instead.

 johnnythewolf, on 20 March 2019 - 04:55 PM, said:

Are you honestly reducing hedonism to an obsession with sex workers?

No, but it's just a part of it. Duke has generally been portrayed as an average guy that just so happens to save the world when he's called on. He appeals to the blue collar standard, he hangs out at skeezy strip joints, drinks beer, watches porn, smokes cigars, and is, in general, the stereotypical macho man turned up several thousand degrees to the point of parody. That's also where his massive ego comes from, one that, I might add, is not entirely unjustified as I'll explain later.

 johnnythewolf, on 20 March 2019 - 04:55 PM, said:

Look, I like Duke Nukem 3D and I do not hate Duke Nukem; I do not see why it is so offensive to point out that he is not exactly an icon of virtue.

 johnnythewolf, on 20 March 2019 - 04:55 PM, said:

D'ya ever consider why they had to be the only NPCs to interact with at all?

Because the developers were more interested in making a fun game instead of pandering to insane political correctness? And you said Duke wasn't politically incorrect. Hah!



Look, let me break this down. Duke's world is inherently ridiculous. From the first game about an evil scientist trying to take over the world with robots, all the way to multiple alien invasions, another rogue scientist with an army of mutants...

Duke's world is not ever supposed to be taken seriously. This is one of the few things DNF got correct: portraying everyone that is not Duke (or General Graves) as an incompetent moron. This includes men and women. Let's not forget that men are in Duke 3D: you kill them because they were mutated into pigs. Everyone in Duke 3D is either dead or captured, the only difference being what sort of external plumbing they have.


If you want to look to a misogynist, look to the aliens themselves, because they're the ones that actually treat the women like property and as mere objects.


As for "Duke only being mad the aliens captured his chicks," firstly if you play the first episode he's actually mad that they blew up his ride.

Secondly, it's the "cool thing" to be mad about smaller things than the greater threat, because it implies the cool person in question just sees it as another day on the job, being a badass hero. He's too cool to care about the bigger threat. Though if you listen to the voice clips (recorded through gritted teeth, IIRC), Duke's one-liners sound a bit bitter and aggressive. Moreso than in even the ports like Duke64 or the exclusive lines in Total Meltdown.


But none of that really matters, because this third point is what's most important:

The line is "our chicks." It's "Nobody steals our chicks and lives." Said in the same way that we'd say "my people" or whatever.

[MusicallyInspired]

 johnnythewolf, on 20 March 2019 - 01:59 PM, said:

[a whole bunch of stuff I couldn't disagree more with]

Man, I couldn't disagree more with all that stuff you said.

Quote

I do not think the character could still draw in a mainstream audience, as players nowadays tend to prefer protagonists that are either more realistic and have some depth to them or grimdark edgelords who literally do not joke around.

That's interesting because I think people are sick of realistic protagonists for once. That's why characters like Doomguy and Serious Sam are still around. It's not outdated. It's refreshing.

Quote

Finally, I just cannot imagine a Duke Nukem game done in the style of Doom 2016. I am not saying it is not possible, but I just cannot see how it would work.

I don't think anyone is insinuating that a new Duke game copy Doom 2016. That's exactly what I said it SHOULDN'T do and why DNF failed; copying other games. No, it needs to break new ground again and become refreshing somehow. Something within its scope and character, but that we haven't seen before. Similarly to how id made Doom 2016 a refreshing take on Doom but one that still suited the series.

 johnnythewolf, on 20 March 2019 - 03:41 PM, said:

I would argue that Duke Nukem does not even really work as a homage, as successful action stars of the 80s and 90s tended to have more going on with them than just being buff wisecracking dudes. Characters like StarCraft's Jim Raynor, Metal Gear Solid's Solid Snake even Devil May Cry's Dante work better in that regard.

Serously, Johnnyboy. Why are you here? I'm trying to figure it out. You don't sound like a fan at all. I'm not gatekeeping or anything, you can be whatever kind of fan you want to be (or not if that may be the case), but you just seem like you have an awful lot to say about how wrong everyone is about Duke Nukem and his games. I'd guess that you're one of those like Kathy who loves the gameplay and just doesn't care about Duke the character, but you keep saying it's not a successful franchise and was never good to begin with. So why are you here trying to convince people who love Duke that they shouldn't love Duke because reasons? What's your endgame here, if you have one?

[Ninety-Six]

 MusicallyInspired, on 20 March 2019 - 09:02 PM, said:

That's exactly what I said it SHOULDN'T do and why DNF failed; copying other games. No, it needs to break new ground again and become refreshing somehow.

To be perfectly fair, Duke Nukem as a series has always been about copying other examples of a certain genre (like Commander Keen and Doom) but then putting its own unique spin on things, and adding in a dash of charm.

DNF was, unfortunately, too far behind (the greatest irony) that most of its twists were already done by the time it actually came out. Except the interactivity (which I'd argue was still pretty good in DNF), which apparently only the Duke franchise really cares about.

[OpenMaw]

 johnnythewolf, on 19 March 2019 - 03:49 PM, said:

I also read that the reportedly terrible Vivisector: Beast Within was also supposed to be a Duke Nukem game...

Get the fuck out.

Get out.

 Ninety-Six, on 20 March 2019 - 10:30 PM, said:

Except the interactivity (which I'd argue was still pretty good in DNF), which apparently only the Duke franchise really cares about.

No, it really wasn't. The biggest problem with the interactivity in DNF is that it is not seamlessly integrated with the regular game action like it was in Duke3D/Time To Kill/Zero Hour. A lot of the interactivity in DNF is boxed into little play areas where all you're doing is interacting with things. Most of the combat areas are very barren for proper interactivity.

[Ninety-Six]

 Commando Nukem, on 20 March 2019 - 11:15 PM, said:

No, it really wasn't. The biggest problem with the interactivity in DNF is that it is not seamlessly integrated with the regular game action like it was in Duke3D/Time To Kill/Zero Hour. A lot of the interactivity in DNF is boxed into little play areas where all you're doing is interacting with things. Most of the combat areas are very barren for proper interactivity.

True, but it's also more interactivity than almost any other game at the time, or really even today.

[Kathy]

It has a barely more interactivity than Duke3d. And if you remove all those IN YOUR FACE interactive areas then Duke3d perhaps have more. But either way, DNF didn't enhance interactivity by much.

Just watched some video with interactions. Damn, who's bright idea was to make Duke barf every time after drinking can of soda?

[Ninety-Six]

 Kathy, on 21 March 2019 - 07:30 AM, said:

It has a barely more interactivity than Duke3d. And if you remove all those IN YOUR FACE interactive areas then Duke3d perhaps have more. But either way, DNF didn't enhance interactivity by much.

Just watched some video with interactions. Damn, who's bright idea was to make Duke barf every time after drinking can of soda?

I never said it was better than in Duke 3D. Just better than most other games at the time of its release up until now.

Mostly because it still has any at all.

[PsychoGoatee]

On the Duke / Doom 2016 thing, like with any comparison or example, it's just a starting point. I've seen people suggest it on several sites, I also think it works to paint a picture of the direction. But it still involves you imagining the game, and nobody is saying it'd be a clone or anything.

Essentially, Duke 3D was very influenced by Doom at the time, and is by far the best of those Doom inspired games I'd say. It brought innovations, ideas, personality etc to it, and a new Duke game could do that as well.

The context just being, Doom 2016 is a great FPS closer to classic style games than any other recent FPS, it had levels with a map, secrets, optional places to jump etc, stuff we don't see as much I FPS games now. A slick "back to basics" Duke game inspired a bit by the design of that game would be a cool starting point.

[johnnythewolf]

 MusicallyInspired, on 20 March 2019 - 09:02 PM, said:

That's interesting because I think people are sick of realistic protagonists for once.

By "realistic", I of course meant characters that feel like real persons even if their character design is not (e.g. Overwatch), not cardboard cutouts who try to be Bruce Campbell.

 MusicallyInspired, on 20 March 2019 - 09:02 PM, said:

That's why characters like Doomguy and Serious Sam are still around.

Serious Sam never really was much of an icon to begin with and the original Doomguy is no more; now, it is the "Doomslayer" and even though he does not talk, he will make sure you are constantly remembered through unskippable cutscenes where he punches a computer screen and is a complete dick to NPCs that he is an overly serious unpleasant grimdark edgelord.

 MusicallyInspired, on 20 March 2019 - 09:02 PM, said:

I don't think anyone is insinuating that a new Duke game copy Doom 2016.

I do not think I said that either. It is just that along Shadow Warrior 2013 and MachineGames' Wolfenstein, Doom 2016 is an example of a successful franchise reboot.

 MusicallyInspired, on 20 March 2019 - 09:02 PM, said:

That's exactly what I said it SHOULDN'T do and why DNF failed; copying other games. No, it needs to break new ground again and become refreshing somehow. Something within its scope and character, but that we haven't seen before. Similarly to how id made Doom 2016 a refreshing take on Doom but one that still suited the series.

Duke Nukem games have always been derivative and I would definitely not call Doom 2016 something that was never seen before; it is essentially a faster-paced Doom 3 without the stamina and ammunition management aspects, sure, but with plenty of staples of the modern first-person shooter genre, such as body awareness, unlockables, finishing moves, generic-looking slick arsenal, a dynamic industrial soundtrack and so on.

 MusicallyInspired, on 20 March 2019 - 09:02 PM, said:

Why are you here?

 Commando Nukem, on 20 March 2019 - 11:15 PM, said:

Get the fuck out.

Get out.

I am only reporting what I have been reading. Are you saying Vivisector is actually a good game? I have never played it, but I have only heard terrible things about it.

 Futuretime23, on 20 March 2019 - 05:05 PM, said:

This is the last thing I'll comment on because this is quite frankly, the most moronic discussion I've ever seen.

No, I think it is because you are just not ready to have this discussion to begin with.

I mean, you clearly could not even bring yourself to read a Wikipedia page - i.e. condensed entry-level information - in its entirety; you just stopped at the first three lines! Like, come on, dude...

 Ninety-Six, on 20 March 2019 - 05:12 PM, said:

Considering we live in a world where air conditioners are considered sexist

No, they are not. That is literally the first time I have ever heard of such a claim and a quick Google search revealed to me that it was not even what was being said in the first place. Like Futuretime, you need to stop basing your judgement on some clickbait headline or the first few lines of an article; otherwise, you just do not know what you are talking about!

[Altered Reality]

 Kathy, on 21 March 2019 - 07:30 AM, said:

Just watched some video with interactions. Damn, who's bright idea was to make Duke barf every time after drinking can of soda?

He doesn't barf, he burps. IIRC, it was someone from the 3DRealms forum.
Just like the idea to start DNF with Duke pissing came from the forum. By the time DNF came out, it was already too old to be considered funny, to the point that I mocked it in my Prey level, FOUR YEARS before DNF even came out!

[johnnythewolf]

 Ninety-Six, on 20 March 2019 - 05:12 PM, said:

Duke has generally been portrayed as an average guy that just so happens to save the world when he's called on.

"Average guy"? Duke Nukem is an absolutely shredded one-man army that can take out an entire army of deadly, heavily-armed aliens by himself!

Also, Duke is constantly portrayed as being incredibly well-off to the point where he has his own fast-food restaurant chain and, in Duke Nukem Forever, his own damn casino.

He is about as "blue collar" as Donald Trump, for fuck's sake!

 Ninety-Six, on 20 March 2019 - 05:12 PM, said:

Because the developers were more interested in making a fun game instead of pandering to insane political correctness?

Hear that, GTA, Postal and Hatred? You are apparently "insanely politically correct" because your levels do not just have sex workers as NPCs!

 Ninety-Six, on 20 March 2019 - 05:12 PM, said:

Look, let me break this down. Duke's world is inherently ridiculous.

No. It is over the top at times and there are a couple of levels that can qualify as genuinely satirical (e.g. Duke Burger), but in general, Duke Nukem 3D's world is pretty serious, if not downright sinister.

 Ninety-Six, on 20 March 2019 - 05:12 PM, said:

Let's not forget that men are in Duke 3D: you kill them because they were mutated into pigs.

... Are you suggesting that all men in Duke Nukem 3D are part of the LAPD?

If so, then it begs the question as to why Duke enjoys killing Pigcops instead of getting angry, like you claim he does whenever he kills women.

 Ninety-Six, on 20 March 2019 - 05:12 PM, said:

If you want to look to a misogynist, look to the aliens themselves, because they're the ones that actually treat the women like property and as mere objects.

They actually more or less want the same thing as Duke Nukem, which is to hang out with babes and have sex with them, only their way of doing the latter causes the babes to die horribly. Regardless, the babes who are not in pods are not shown to mind dancing for the aliens' pleasure and as such, Duke Nukem comes across less as their saviour and more as just another customer.

When you look at it this way, Duke Nukem 3D is essentially just two sides wresting control over women as if they were a ball...

 Ninety-Six, on 20 March 2019 - 05:12 PM, said:

As for "Duke only being mad the aliens captured his chicks," firstly if you play the first episode he's actually mad that they blew up his ride.

So he values some spaceship he stole from the aliens who abducted him in the previous game as much as the sex workers he is obsessed with.

That is some philogyny of the highest order!

 Ninety-Six, on 20 March 2019 - 05:12 PM, said:

The line is "our chicks." It's "Nobody steals our chicks and lives."

So he thinks the chicks belong to Earth's population, not just him.

Nobody has more respect for women than he does!

[MusicallyInspired]

 johnnythewolf, on 21 March 2019 - 02:06 PM, said:

That is not what I'm saying at all.

[Ninety-Six]

yeah okay I'm done with this one

There's no point in debating someone who will intentionally keep missing the point in order to prolong the argument.

[Futuretime23]

 johnnythewolf, on 21 March 2019 - 02:06 PM, said:

By "realistic", I of course meant characters that feel like real persons even if their character design is not (e.g. Overwatch), not cardboard cutouts who try to be Bruce Campbell.



Serious Sam never really was much of an icon to begin with and the original Doomguy is no more; now, it is the "Doomslayer" and even though he does not talk, he will make sure you are constantly remembered through unskippable cutscenes where he punches a computer screen and is a complete dick to NPCs that he is an overly serious unpleasant grimdark edgelord.



I do not think I said that either. It is just that along Shadow Warrior 2013 and MachineGames' Wolfenstein, Doom 2016 is an example of a successful franchise reboot.



Duke Nukem games have always been derivative and I would definitely not call Doom 2016 something that was never seen before; it is essentially a faster-paced Doom 3 without the stamina and ammunition management aspects, sure, but with plenty of staples of the modern first-person shooter genre, such as body awareness, unlockables, finishing moves, generic-looking slick arsenal, a dynamic industrial soundtrack and so on.







I am only reporting what I have been reading. Are you saying Vivisector is actually a good game? I have never played it, but I have only heard terrible things about it.



No, I think it is because you are just not ready to have this discussion to begin with.

I mean, you clearly could not even bring yourself to read a Wikipedia page - i.e. condensed entry-level information - in its entirety; you just stopped at the first three lines! Like, come on, dude...



No, they are not. That is literally the first time I have ever heard of such a claim and a quick Google search revealed to me that it was not even what was being said in the first place. Like Futuretime, you need to stop basing your judgement on some clickbait headline or the first few lines of an article; otherwise, you just do not know what you are talking about!

Ok, last thing for reals I'll comment on because I don't like people making assumptions of shit I do (or as earlier what happened with what you did, twisting my words)
I actually did read the wiki page, I only posted those lines because it was the quickest way to sum up why would someone consider Duke as misogynist, which I have already proven with examples why he's not. Don't assume I didn't read shit please, kthx. One recommendation (and something I should have suggested earlier tbf) this duke is misogynist and sexist or not rant should be moved into another thread. It has nothing to do with the DNF 2001 build apparently being almost complete or the subsequent Duke collection proto bonus talk, related to DNF 2001.

[----]

 johnnythewolf, on 20 March 2019 - 01:59 PM, said:

... as players nowadays tend to prefer protagonists that are either more realistic and have some depth to them ...

Fuck those idiots. No, really. Fuck them. That's only because they don't have any personality at all themselves and need to "become" a fictional character because they cannot experience an adventure themselves because they are brainless fucktards who will never achieve anything (or are too young for a developed personality).

I really need to find the source for that again: There was a survey among WoW players. Those with a strong and developed personality who were also quite satisfied with their lives made characters close to themselves. MY take on that: They also cand fill the void of a Gordon Freeman or the stereotype of a Duke (who has no developing character arc and is only a flat stereotype).
Those who weren't happy with their lives or had a weak personality made the wildest characters with the wildest names ... because then they could be somebody else. Those people need a fleshed out ingame-character as they are too undedeveloped to fill out the shell of a game's main protagonist, like Duke, Gordon, Doomguy, etc ...

Again: Fuck them.



Phew ... I needed that.

[Hendricks266]

I had to rename this thread because I'm sick of the misinformation.

[johnnythewolf]

 fuegerstef, on 22 March 2019 - 10:15 AM, said:

Fuck those idiots. No, really. Fuck them.

[----]

 johnnythewolf, on 22 March 2019 - 11:06 AM, said:

I can live with that, as I don't need no idiotic videogame protagonist that 50% of the time does what my mouse and keyboard inputs want him to and the other half of the time totally ruins not only immersion but the whole game because he/she now does and says stupid stuff no normal being would ever say and do ... just to pretend give him "depth", although 99% of all "deeper" videogame narrations are pretty bad anyways (compaed to books and movies).