[Doom64hunter]

Altered Reality, on 20 March 2018 - 03:52 AM, said:

If I believe Fred:
- if he's right, I'll be ecstatic for being right all along and getting a great game
- if he's wrong, I'll be sorely disappointed that I'm getting little more than what I saw in the trailer

If I believe Randy:
- if he's right, I won't be disappointed because I get exactly what I was expecting
- if he's wrong, I'll be ecstatic for getting a great game

The choice seems clear to me.

From my own experience I can say that having low to even negative expectations can actually sour your enjoyment of a product once it gets released.
People have a tendency to try and justify their own opinions, and so if one expects something to suck in advance, they are more likely to actively look for things that suck about the product once they get their hands on it.
If we were a completely rational species, this line of thought would work, but unfortunately it often backfires.

[ashura252]

I mean, at the end of the day, it was very easy for games like the Shadow Warrior reboot to come out after DNF. I think if nothing else, DNF kind of proved there was still a market for the old style of FPS and these old IPs. I feel like it still kind of led this Retro FPS revival we've been going through. I don't think a game like Shadow Warrior 2013 or Doom 2016 could have happened without DNF.

There's an old issue of PC Powerplay where they claim Deus Ex Infinity War was one of the most important games of its era because in all its ambition it actually showed devs what not to do and shone a light on what would turn out to be some extremely questionable design. I kind of see DNF like that. No one's going to turn around now and release Call of Doom, or anything like that. It can still be influential as a project even if it didn't hit the mark. By DNF releasing as it did, we still got a bit of that industry pivot.

I'm still glad Gearbox helped get those devs out the door, even if it's pieced together in a way George never expected and never had it's full design completed even after DLC. As a software developer, it's been a hugely inspiring story about what not to do when it comes to scope creep and design.

[Altered Reality]

Doom64hunter, on 20 March 2018 - 12:53 PM, said:

People have a tendency to try and justify their own opinions, and so if one expects something to suck in advance, they are more likely to actively look for things that suck about the product once they get their hands on it.

The problem is that those people never learned to be happy about being wrong, so they'd rather be in denial, unhappy, and convince themselves that they are right, than honestly notice that they were wrong and be happy about that.

Doom64hunter, on 20 March 2018 - 12:53 PM, said:

If we were a completely rational species, this line of thought would work, but unfortunately it often backfires.

Well, I consider myself to be pretty rational. You can read my motto in my signature.

[Zaxx]

ashura252, on 20 March 2018 - 02:03 PM, said:

I mean, at the end of the day, it was very easy for games like the Shadow Warrior reboot to come out after DNF. I think if nothing else, DNF kind of proved there was still a market for the old style of FPS and these old IPs. I feel like it still kind of led this Retro FPS revival we've been going through. I don't think a game like Shadow Warrior 2013 or Doom 2016 could have happened without DNF.

Honestly I think Serious Sam 3 and Shadow Warrior 2013 take the credit for "inspiring" the current revival of the old school FPS. I still remember the joy I felt when I fired up Serious Sam 3 after the disappointment of DNF. Compared to the stuff we have today SS3 may not look like much but back in 2011 it was a nice cold glass of water in the desert and it was also massively successful so I'm sure that's where big companies like Bethesda realized that there is a market for more classic shooters. SS3 also let Devolver to grow so they could grab Lo Wang for a spin.

DNF did not do much, all things considered the game was a failure (even financially though it's hard to imagine anything else after 12 years of development) and at its core it was a modern shooter.

[axl]

Zaxx, on 20 March 2018 - 02:16 PM, said:

Honestly I think Serious Sam 3 and Shadow Warrior 2013 take the credit for "inspiring" the current revival of the old school FPS.

Why SS3 ? I mean Serious Sam 3 is in no way different than Serious Sam: the first encounter which was released way back in 2001.

Personally I make a distinction between the classic FPS (Doom, Duke, Quake, ...) where there's a great emphasis on level design and exploration and FPS games with large open maps where enemies attack in waves (Painkiller, Serious Sam, Shadow Warrior reboot, ...).

In that regard, I would more likely pinpoint the new Doom as inspiring the current revival of old school FPS.

[Zaxx]

axl, on 20 March 2018 - 02:36 PM, said:

Personally I make a distinction between the classic FPS (Doom, Duke, Quake, ...) where there's a great emphasis on level design and exploration and FPS games with large open maps where enemies attack in waves (Painkiller, Serious Sam, Shadow Warrior reboot, ...).

Does that really matter though in the grand scheme of things? I don't think that when a publisher looks at what's popular the suits go into the nitty-gritty of level design philosophy, they just see stuff like "Serious Sam? That's an old shooter from 10 years ago and it's popular again, maybe we should make one of those. Hey, what was that game where you shoot nazis with a big guy?". As for Doom 2016 sure, that may be directly responsible for stuff like DUSK, Ion Maiden, Amid Evil and Quake Champions but I don't think of it as a starting point since SS3, SW 2013 and Wolf TNO all came before it.

I also don't think of AAA publishers as risk takers because it's pretty rare for a different kind of AAA game to emerge from nothing. The way I see it without SS3 the new id Software titles would have been console shooters like Wolf 2009 and RAGE. Before SS3 there was literally nothing similar to a true old school shooter apart from the remakes of the old Serious Sams, it was just the ocean of Halo and CoD clones.

Anyway it looks like Sam's getting serious again this year, hope it will be a good game. Croteam said SS4 will be more like the first Sam instead of SS3 so now it will be proper old school arena horde action.

[Kerr Avon]

Altered Reality, on 20 March 2018 - 10:41 AM, said:

...because Duke Nukem 3D is the only Duke Nukem-related thing Duke Nukem fans don't hate. That was NOT sarcasm.

Maybe for some, even many of, Duke Nukem fans, but I really like Duke Nukem: Zero Hour, not the DN3D mod (which I don't think I've ever played), but the N64-only game. It's a really good third person shooter (think the Playstation's Duke Nukem: Time to Kill but with much less platforming and more shooting, and overall much better than TTK), that you can play totally in first person view if you prefer, using a push-button-cheat, or you can legitmiately unlock first person mode as an in-game achievement if you prefer. In it you travel through time so several times and places, and use period specific weapons as well as conventional modern human weapons and alien weapons as you attempt to stop the aliens from destroying Earth's timeline.

Unlike Duke Nukem Forever, DN:ZH actually gets the Duke Nukem 3D humour right, and the levels and weapons are great, and it's well designed and realised. Being three console generations old, it's graphics and frame-rate are ropey nowadays, but if you still play N64/PSX games then you won't notice it, and if you play it on a PC, via an emulator, you might be able to improve it's frame-rate. An emulator WILL make it look better, as when you run N64 games in a higher resolution than a real N64, they do look much better, but I don't know if N64 emulators offer better frame-rates yet (N64 emulators weren't too great, the last time I gave them a proper look, and since I still use my N64, I don't keep up with N64 emulators).

[Altered Reality]

Kerr Avon, on 20 March 2018 - 03:05 PM, said:

Maybe for some, even many of, Duke Nukem fans, but I really like Duke Nukem: Zero Hour, not the DN3D mod (which I don't think I've ever played), but the N64-only game.

I do too. I've played it (emulated) for the first time in the early 2000s, and I like it a lot better than TTK. Emulators also make it possible to save wherever you want, removing a BIG limitation of the original platform.

[mrDUKE!zone]

Altered Reality, on 20 March 2018 - 03:30 PM, said:

I do too. I've played it (emulated) for the first time in the early 2000s, and I like it a lot better than TTK. Emulators also make it possible to save wherever you want, removing a BIG limitation of the original platform.

Did you know that Duke Nukem zero hour uses that same engine that powered Duke Nukem 64. A modified Build engine. So technically Duke Nukem zero hour and Duke nukem 64 are both build engine games. Just a little fact i wanted to put out there.

[ashura252]

Zaxx, on 20 March 2018 - 02:16 PM, said:

Honestly I think Serious Sam 3 and Shadow Warrior 2013 take the credit for "inspiring" the current revival of the old school FPS. I still remember the joy I felt when I fired up Serious Sam 3 after the disappointment of DNF. Compared to the stuff we have today SS3 may not look like much but back in 2011 it was a nice cold glass of water in the desert and it was also massively successful so I'm sure that's where big companies like Bethesda realized that there is a market for more classic shooters. SS3 also let Devolver to grow so they could grab Lo Wang for a spin.

DNF did not do much, all things considered the game was a failure (even financially though it's hard to imagine anything else after 12 years of development) and at its core it was a modern shooter.

See, but people were craving something like SS3 after DNF released because it didn't satisfy the itch people realised they had. Maybe this is a little off topic, but I guess my point was that the reaction to DNF made the market for the older style more obvious and viable. Would SS3 have been a big deal at all without DNF? Who knows. But that's just what I was thinking. It still "failed", but it acted as an example of what not to do and made the style that people wanted more popular as a result.

[KareBear]

mrDUKE!zone, on 20 March 2018 - 04:36 PM, said:

Did you know that Duke Nukem zero hour uses that same engine that powered Duke Nukem 64. A modified Build engine. So technically Duke Nukem zero hour and Duke nukem 64 are both build engine games. Just a little fact i wanted to put out there.

I thought Zero Hour uses a true 3D engine but the developer Eurocom just used a modified version of the build editor to design the levels.

I don't think the game itself runs on the build engine.

[necroslut]

Oh, come one, Serious Sam 3 wasn't even a good Serious Sam game - Serious Sam 2 is better. And anyway, this shows the whole problem with talking about a thing like "old school shooters" - Duke and Sam aren't even in the same galaxy of game design. Serious Sam was even at the time a "back to basics" shooter, with minimalist level design, simple weapons, arena combat against 1000 enemies; while Duke was all about advancing the genre with intricate detailed levels, a wealth of creative and tactical weapons and items, scripted scenes, all that.
Duke has more in common with Half-Life, Sin or goddamn Deus Ex than Serious Sam... and if Sam 3 had been a Duke game it would have been a much bigger disappointment than DNF.

[Zaxx]

necroslut, on 21 March 2018 - 12:07 AM, said:

Oh, come one, Serious Sam 3 wasn't even a good Serious Sam game - Serious Sam 2 is better.

Bleh, SS2's art style was really bad, they went overboard with the cartoony stuff and most of the weapons had no punch to them. SS3 went a bit overboard with the realism on the other hand but it was still much closer to the original style than SS2 and there the weapons actually worked and you got really nice new stuff like the Sirian bracelet, the melee attacks and what have you. It was also a step in the right direction when level design is considered: SS3 balanced out the arena gameplay with the expansive levels so lots of times you did not feel like you were in just a large corridor, instead there are some legitimately good maps in there, some of those could even work in a more classic shooter as monster arena maps because that minimal complexity is there. Once you get out of the city it's mostly carnage though but that's how it has always been for the series.

I do think that SS has good level design for what it is because of one thing though: secrets. I've seen some of the most clever secret placement ever in Serious Sam games and they really need that aspect because that's what separates SS from a true corridor shooter.

[necroslut]

Zaxx, on 21 March 2018 - 12:28 AM, said:

Bleh, SS2's art style was really bad, they went overboard with the cartoony stuff and most of the weapons had no punch to them. SS3 went a bit overboard with the realism on the other hand but it was still much closer to the original style than SS2 and there the weapons actually worked and you got really nice new stuff like the Sirian bracelet, the melee attacks and what have you. It was also a step in the right direction when level design is considered: SS3 balanced out the arena gameplay with the expansive levels so lots of times you did not feel like you were in just a large corridor, instead there are some legitimately good maps in there, some of those could even work in a more classic shooter as monster arena maps because that minimal complexity is there. Once you get out of the city it's mostly carnage though but that's how it has always been for the series.

I do think that SS has good level design for what it is because of one thing though: secrets. I've seen some of the most clever secret placement ever in Serious Sam games and they really need that aspect because that's what separates SS from a true corridor shooter.

SS2 was definitely inferior to TFE/TSE in many ways and I agree with your points about it and it's also buggy unlike SS3, I do think the art style works at some places though... But level design in SS3 is probably the worst in any of the games with copy-pasted identical stuff all over, lack of weapons, boring design, messy visuals, and it doesn't even get started until like the last level. They have also managed to replace what already was the world's most generic weapon loadout with an even more generic one. I loved it at release but it hasn't held up at all IMO; with SS2 it's the other way around: I hated it at release but when replaying it lately I enjoy it much more than SS3.
I think the way people view SS2 and 3 has a lot to do with expectations - we expected more of SS2... but when BFE came out, we were starved for any kind of hardcore shooter. But I don't think it's a good Serious Sam sequel, really, and having played through all the SS games recently I do think it's the worst one. Not a terrible game in any way, but compared to say TSE it lacks a lot. And as a Duke game it would lack even more.

[spessu_sb]

Zaxx, on 20 March 2018 - 08:35 AM, said:

snip

I do agree with that, that 3DR may have not survived the layoff thing had Randy not gotten involved. But I'm just not sure he understands Duke that well, because of how they have portrayed him now on those twitter posts etc marketing. DNF also was more of a complete parody instead of an action game with comedic events in it, ála Duke3D and the spinoffs. He also should direct JSJ because it's his call. Also considering how George had always directed him and the way the outcome is in previous Duke games when compared to DNF, you do see there is a difference there. And I don't really see what the problem is because JSJ afterall is an voiceactor, he's not some guy who can't be given orders but he is hired to play Duke as the way Duke is known and then he should also do Duke and not do Duke the way he likes to do him.

Yes, thinking AAA does play differently but is it really good and healthy to not basically allow any kinda Duke surfacing? Surely if he wanted visibility, he'd be more open about free non-commercial Quality user done content. Emphassis on quality. So maybe not just any low quality random hack. Half-Life mod Duke Nukem Cataclysm looked very impressive yet it wasn't allowed to continue because it's not on the Build engine. Randy is imo completely overprotective of this IP and because there is basically nothing Duke related coming out, some people are starting to have enough and they accept he is soon to be dead or something. If he does surface one day via maybe even a good AAA game, these people may not care then anymore. There was also another Duke project going on some few years. Some guys were making something on Unreal Engine but eventually it was also c&d stopped. Randy is not doing anything with the IP but also ain't allowing anyone else to do any kinda non-commercial free mods either except if its on the Build engine. So you can see why people get annoyed.

If a DNF collection does come out, I just please hope that they include the editor because then the community could also expand. I'm sure there are some folks out there who like Duke and are very tech savy aswell but they just don't want to be stuck with Build engine. Build even if quite powerful and you can do quite impressive stuff with it even in 2018, still does function completely differently than some more modern engines. Sure UE1 ain't state of the art either but it's closer to the newer editors than Build engine.
Also if he wants to do a remaster/s, he should already get onto work on introducing the classic Zero Hour and atleast Time To Kill on modern systems. PC and consoles. They are fantastic games and they would remind the public what Duke is really like. He's not some jerk that you met in DNF but a legit action hero who's supposed to be the good guy and quite likeable too. I don't much care for a DNF remaster unless it would re-do quite alot of the things, such as remove weaponlimit and regen because those things really conflicted with the game's intentions.

Actual content in World Tour is indeed great seen effort but sadly enough all the technical and financial side things brought it in very bad light. Megaton may not be as technically impressive as WT because it's "just" a re-release of old content but all it is that the people will see, is this game used to be out there and it offered this much content. These people don't know that the addons were illegally included and so. But instead they see that it used be there, Gearbox, removal of Megaton and introduction of WT. So they get salty.

I feel same way about new 3DR's quality. I don't consider them same kinda position as what old 3DR were but I feel positive in them. I don't know what happened with RR ks etc and I don't either know wether RR is good on the technical side of things. I understand why you probably feel skeptical giving these guys hands on optimizing the 2001 DNF builds after mess of RotT and Bombshell. I don't know how Bombshell actually ran but I do know it also had some drama. I sorta can agree that if they would fuck up the DNF build/s, it would be very bad thing also publicly. But I just want the 01 version/others so badly that this kinda thing becomes very hard to judge. Not get 01 version if 3DR doesn't do the thing, if 3DR does the thing and fucks up it'll do yet more damage for Duke's image.

Ion Maiden indeed is great, it's actual 90's fps in 2018.

[spessu_sb]

necroslut, on 21 March 2018 - 12:07 AM, said:

Oh, come one, Serious Sam 3 wasn't even a good Serious Sam game - Serious Sam 2 is better. And anyway, this shows the whole problem with talking about a thing like "old school shooters" - Duke and Sam aren't even in the same galaxy of game design. Serious Sam was even at the time a "back to basics" shooter, with minimalist level design, simple weapons, arena combat against 1000 enemies; while Duke was all about advancing the genre with intricate detailed levels, a wealth of creative and tactical weapons and items, scripted scenes, all that.
Duke has more in common with Half-Life, Sin or goddamn Deus Ex than Serious Sam... and if Sam 3 had been a Duke game it would have been a much bigger disappointment than DNF.

SS3 is imo the best Serious Sam game out there. Sam actually is most serious in it and I get legit Duke Nukem similarity from it because he doesn't completely over do it unlike usually. SS2 is fun game but it's a Serious Sam game (as is 3) but 3 also imho showed best level design from Croteam sofar. I felt bit of classic fps inspire in there. Quite few keycard useages, those corridor parts inside the pyramids, more individual based enemy encounters and some secrets that to get to, include hard platforming and thus are legit well hidden. Guns also packed the most punch. SSTFE guns imo don't hold up at all really, tommygun in particular sounds very bad the way the sound just pops out of nowhere.

Something I would be interested in seeing is if Croteam made either a Serious Sam game like 90's fps or they did a new game and gave it they're best to make a 90's fps. Because I think they certainly do understand such way better than PeopleCanFly/Flying Wild Hog does with their room lockdown shooters.

[HulkNukem]

necroslut, on 21 March 2018 - 12:07 AM, said:

Oh, come one, Serious Sam 3 wasn't even a good Serious Sam game - Serious Sam 2 is better.

One of the first times I've ever heard/read someone with this opinion

[MusicallyInspired]

Ditto. SS3 is my favourite in the whole series so far.

[----]

For me the best is Serious Sam 3 with the "no reloading mod" and that one mod* that adds the old enemies into the mix, makes the lasergun and sniper normal weapons (instead of secret ones with very few ammo) and puts the dlc into the main campaign where it belongs chronologically.

Oh, the joy of moddable games ...

*) forgot the name, though.

[Jimmy]

KareBear, on 20 March 2018 - 06:42 PM, said:

I thought Zero Hour uses a true 3D engine but the developer Eurocom just used a modified version of the build editor to design the levels.

I don't think the game itself runs on the build engine.

Nope. It's built on top of Duke64. It just has a LOT of new features. All of the assets have been extracted from the game.

[Altered Reality]

spessu_sb, on 21 March 2018 - 04:58 AM, said:

But I just want the 01 version/others so badly that this kinda thing becomes very hard to judge. Not get 01 version if 3DR doesn't do the thing, if 3DR does the thing and fucks up it'll do yet more damage for Duke's image.

Personally, I'm more curious about what was done before the engine switch in mid-1998, but I want the 2001 build to be released to laugh at the drama it will create.

mrDUKE!zone, on 20 March 2018 - 04:36 PM, said:

Did you know that Duke Nukem zero hour uses that same engine that powered Duke Nukem 64. A modified Build engine. So technically Duke Nukem zero hour and Duke nukem 64 are both build engine games. Just a little fact i wanted to put out there.

Oh yes, I know. I've followed the thread about its assets since the beginning.

[spessu_sb]

Altered Reality, on 21 March 2018 - 03:55 PM, said:

Personally, I'm more curious about what was done before the engine switch in mid-1998, but I want the 2001 build to be released to laugh at the drama it will create.

You're reffering to the idtech2 phase? But wasn't that like truly minimal amount of content that got made? Like matter of only few months until it all got scrapped.

Altered Reality, on 20 March 2018 - 10:41 AM, said:

I'm expecting this to happen in any case - even if what we get includes lots of levels, raw assets, and the level editor. People will still bitch that what they got was not the complete package, that they got gypped, that the "real" DNF 2001 is way more awesone than that, that it's still hidden somewhere waiting to be leaked, and that Randy is holding onto it and not releasing it because it would put him to shame. Even if Wieder confirms that what they released is all that exists, people will say Randy convinced him to say that.

Personally I agree with you. I mean if I actually get my hands on 01 version and I recognize either by using the editor or just by other means via testing the thing that this is an actual old DNF build, then I'm more than happy about it. Be it as un-finished as you just can imagine. All it is that I'm seeking with it, is some closure time for me I guess. When it comes to the official product that is.

I still would be interested in messing around with the editor and possibly be part of contributing to some community project maybe. I do have some Radiant and Maya background, some amount UDK aswell.

Altered Reality, on 21 March 2018 - 03:55 PM, said:

they got gypped, that the "real" DNF 2001 is way more awesone than that, that it's still hidden somewhere waiting to be leaked

So if this were to happen, I would consider those people fools really. Conspiracy theorists because if we do actually finally get the 01 build after 17/18years, then what the hell man.. How can anyone possibly complain about some content still when it is now sitting in your hands?

[Dan]

mrDUKE!zone, on 20 March 2018 - 04:36 PM, said:

Did you know that Duke Nukem zero hour uses that same engine that powered Duke Nukem 64. A modified Build engine. So technically Duke Nukem zero hour and Duke nukem 64 are both build engine games. Just a little fact i wanted to put out there.

I know. It does make you wonder why the game never got a PC port. At least to tide people over until DNF.

[Player Lin]

I did liked(*) SS2, because it did still a Serious Sam(-style) game, and its fun factors does made me feel good, but yeah, it's not "serious" enough as cartoon style didn't fit Sam's character well, and they did too much "fun" with SS2, and then I feel it should be something else for some reasons.

But, SS3 would be better than SS2, it's like the TFE/TSE and serious enough, I know everyone has their own opinion but say "SS2 is better than SS3", wow it's rare.


* : Not now, as I already got tired about the whole "dodge&shoot-shitload-of-monsters" and "Mental always not be the final boss idea...I'm not even sure if I would try the fourth one when it releases.

[Altered Reality]

spessu_sb, on 21 March 2018 - 10:01 PM, said:

You're reffering to the idtech2 phase? But wasn't that like truly minimal amount of content that got made? Like matter of only few months until it all got scrapped.

Yes, that's the one.I'm interested in it because I want to see where DNF was going before George's illogical insistence about the Hoover Dam made him decide to scrap everything and start over. There's much less hype about it, so, if it gets released, nobody's opinion is going to be skewed by their emotions.
That, incidentally, is also why my favorite 8-bit computer is the unreleased Commodore 65.

Dan, on 22 March 2018 - 02:00 AM, said:

I know. It does make you wonder why the game never got a PC port. At least to tide people over until DNF.

An exclusivity contract with Nintendo?

[necroslut]

Dan, on 22 March 2018 - 02:00 AM, said:

I know. It does make you wonder why the game never got a PC port. At least to tide people over until DNF.

The game was thoroughly designed and built as a console game. At the time it would have come out, honestly it wouldn't have been very good or impressive for a PC game, unless they would have rebuilt the whole thing... And in that case, maybe it would have been better to just make a new game.

[Jimmy]

I also suspect that some people did not get paid considering the fact that it wasn't known to be a BUILD game until this past year.

[OpenMaw]

Jimmy, on 22 March 2018 - 01:01 PM, said:

I also suspect that some people did not get paid considering the fact that it wasn't known to be a BUILD game until this past year.

As in... Ken Silverman, or how do you mean?

[Jimmy]

I won't name any names because I don't know the contracts and I don't know what went on, but the fact it was released on console and no one knew it was a BUILD game makes me think that it may have been unlicensed.

[KareBear]

Jimmy, on 21 March 2018 - 02:56 PM, said:

Nope. It's built on top of Duke64. It just has a LOT of new features. All of the assets have been extracted from the game.

I found this quote from an interview with the developers.

Quote

Silent News: Could you give us some information about the Graphics engine Duke Nukem: Zero Hour uses?

Eurocom: It's a custom engine utilising static lighting, variable fog, dynamic lighting on characters, and the longest draw distance of any game on the N64.