[Altered Reality]

I've read for years that big outdoor areas with Polymer lights are a no-no because of performance. I've also read that the DNF 2013 mod was made to be run with 8-bit textures because Polymer would make it look uglier. So I decided: let's put those claims to the test!

I started from the LADYKLLR.MAP file from the DNF 2013 mod, which I copied into my main Duke3D directory. I deliberately avoided to add any .ART file, so that the HRP would kick in, even though that would result in several textures being rendered as black. I added several colored Polymer lights in correspondence of the street lights in the main boulevard, I replaced the custom street texture (which used to make the street look black) with the standard Duke3D street texture, then I launched the level from the main game.
So the frame rate does take a hit, but I disagree about the level looking uglier. Here are the results:

[Danukem]

Gambini and the other level designers for DNF 2013 are aesthetically opposed to the inclusion of HRP content with their levels and also noticed that differences between renderers made for certain visual glitches in polymer (even without HRP content). Opposition to polymer and/or the HRP with this particular project was never about performance. If you really want to push the limits of polymer, there are plenty of maps and projects that will push it way harder than DNF 2013.

[Zaxtor]

I did some limitation tests.
I put lots of complex models for fun, it lagged very very very bit but over ~2000 sprites on same screen or so, some vanished (buffer overload),
no crashes, Is like it wouldn't lag any further more.

lots of glowing, lights etc,
haven't test that part yet.
I know lots of lights can cause lag

[Mark]

Trooper Dan said... If you really want to push the limits of polymer, there are plenty of maps and projects that will push it way harder than DNF 2013.
---------------------------------------
I hear ya brotha' I have done extensive testing over the years since all my projects have been large open maps and Polymer. I fought long battles to optimize for best framerate in each project. I had lots of discussions with Plagman and other devs. If I get ambitious enough I'll gather together my thoughts and results. In the mean time if others want to do their tests too thats a good thing. Together we can give hints on what to do or to avoid.

[Altered Reality]

 Trooper Dan, on 01 March 2018 - 05:35 PM, said:

Gambini and the other level designers for DNF 2013 are aesthetically opposed to the inclusion of HRP content with their levels and also noticed that differences between renderers made for certain visual glitches in polymer (even without HRP content). Opposition to polymer and/or the HRP with this particular project was never about performance.

As far as aesthetics are concerned, all I can say is that it looks good so far, even though the frame rate drops when you look outside from the Lady Killer (it's actually a little higher when you are outside).
Was their opposition political (i.e. "let's not make something that looks too good, or else Gearbox is gonna sue us")?

[Mark]

Nah, Most modders just prefer the 8bit look. Plus it makes it compatible to a wider audience as far as those with older hardware.

[Altered Reality]

Oh well. If it's just a matter of personal preference, I prefer the Polymer look and the additional challenge involved (how much better than vanilla Duke3D can I make it look?)
The only reason why I keep the original weapon sprites is that I use ReShade to play Duke3D in stereoscopy, and if I use polygonal models for the weapons, ReShade won't be able to access the depth buffer and create stereo views.

[Mark]

I usually try new maps with the hrp and Polymer first because its what I'm used to. If the author of the map says its designed for something else I'll try that afterwards.

[Danukem]

 Altered Reality, on 01 March 2018 - 06:38 PM, said:

As far as aesthetics are concerned, all I can say is that it looks good so far, even though the frame rate drops when you look outside from the Lady Killer (it's actually a little higher when you are outside).
Was their opposition political (i.e. "let's not make something that looks too good, or else Gearbox is gonna sue us")?

No, it's not political, they genuinely prefer to keep a consistent color palette and overall look that is the look they designed for the map. Also I wasn't kidding about the glitches -- some of the issues may have been fixed by now but there were definitely some issues.

Looking at your screenshots, the polymer lighting does look nice but the HRP textures and models don't look very good in that map imo. The HRP assets certainly don't look like they came from a modern game, they look like they came from an early 2000s game. So what we have is essentially two different eras of retro assets mixing together.

[necroslut]

 Trooper Dan, on 01 March 2018 - 08:09 PM, said:

No, it's not political, they genuinely prefer to keep a consistent color palette and overall look that is the look they designed for the map. Also I wasn't kidding about the glitches -- some of the issues may have been fixed by now but there were definitely some issues.

IIRC one of the gripes they had with Polymer was that it has (had?) a lower visibility range, breaking some of the large scenes in a very ugly way.

[Altered Reality]

 Trooper Dan, on 01 March 2018 - 08:09 PM, said:

No, it's not political, they genuinely prefer to keep a consistent color palette and overall look that is the look they designed for the map. Also I wasn't kidding about the glitches -- some of the issues may have been fixed by now but there were definitely some issues.

Did I just find a glitch? The following are two screenshots from my attempt to HRP-ize E1L6 from Lameduke. I changed some textures, rotated the models and added some Polymer lights. The result is that floors can either be affected or unaffected by those lights, depending on where I am in the level (in this case, few steps make a difference).

 Trooper Dan, on 01 March 2018 - 08:09 PM, said:

Looking at your screenshots, the polymer lighting does look nice but the HRP textures and models don't look very good in that map imo. The HRP assets certainly don't look like they came from a modern game, they look like they came from an early 2000s game. So what we have is essentially two different eras of retro assets mixing together.

If the mixing is coherent, it can be a new style in itself.

[Mark]

What is your "max lights" setting at in the main menu? Maybe bump it up a few numbers. Mine is set at 12 IIRC.

[Altered Reality]

 Mark., on 02 March 2018 - 02:55 PM, said:

What is your "max lights" setting at in the main menu? Maybe bump it up a few numbers. Mine is set at 12 IIRC.

It used to be 10, and it wouldn't go past 10 from the in-game options, so I used the console command r_pr_maxlightpasses "100". While now they remain on for most of the time, moving around the level can still shut them off.

[Mark]

Check to make sure that there is no transparency set on the S sprite for the lights. IIRC that assigns it some type of priority. I don't know if that has anything to do with it or not. Also, from time to time when lights get glitchy for no apparent reason over the course of months of mapping, I delete it and rebuild it and the problem disappears. Setting to 100 is overkill. 12 has worked fine for HHR which is loaded with lights everywhere.