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My god, George was an even bigger dickhead than I thought!

User is offline   Jimmy 

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#61

 Altered Reality, on 24 August 2017 - 04:31 PM, said:

Ergo, the engine is not to blame. Incompetence is.

Look at this amazing argument of semantics.

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User is offline   BestViking 

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#62

If they went with one of the earliest iterations, the game would have been much better for the time, because all the idiotic practises of today was not mainstream yet, like long cutscenes, QTY, "muh emotional story", and all the other garbage that influences modern game development. You'd have a game that would run well, focus on the action and gameplay and therefore be more in harmony with the theme/setting. The longer they waited, and for each engine migration, new standards were set that they were compelled to adhere to, and the further the game drifted from its roots because of this.

Once multiplatform became "mandatory", it was more or less the final nail in the coffin. It just could not have been any good after that unless the devs developed for PC first and then shaved off of that version for the consoles. But we can't have any inequality, right? We can't imply that those on a platform with hardware that is locked for 7 or so years should have a worse experience than those who shell out the bucks for a dynamic platform. Even if you pay more, you should have the same shitty experience, because the game is developed around the lowest common denominator.

It was really the first time the game was restarted that doomed it, because this was just the time when everything started to go downhill. Prior to that, consoles were in an ecosystem of their own. The platforms had different things to offer, and you were really compelled to own both consoles and a PC because they had different strengths. They offered different things. Once that changed, pretty much everything went downhill.
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User is offline   Psyrgery 

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#63

A friend of mine recently got a degree in videogame development, and he confirms what has been said here already.

Basically what is not meant to be seen should not be developed or built, because it's a waste of resources. The fact that there are chunks of maps missing it's because the camera will not ever show them to the player.

That's how you make maps in games, it's been this way since forever (no pun intended)
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User is offline   RunReneeRun 

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#64

View PostPsyrgery, on 04 September 2017 - 09:02 AM, said:

A friend of mine recently got a degree in videogame development...

Posted Image

What your friend said is fine despite them spending money unnecessarily. That said it's a bit like explaining that in order to walk you have to alternate the positions of your feet. However if you aren't sure precisely where you're going, you're likely to leave footprints (level geometry) in places you wouldn't have if you knew your destination ahead of time.

This post has been edited by SeeJaneWun: 10 September 2017 - 05:40 PM

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User is offline   Maisth 

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#65

I Recently played through DNF for the Third time now and manage to complete it finally.

And i gotta say the amount of detail that went onto the Skybox in Las Vegas its unthinkable, im the kind of person to be easily impressed with graphics but this was an exception, the amount of work that went into recreating this whole area is incredible atleast for me, in the Area where you are about to enter Duke Burger you get an amazing view of the whole city, i was blown away because you could pretty much see everything.

Needless to say it was a wasted potential, i almost expected to see a Bike Escape from Las Vegas to the Dam at some point, oh well you can always dream i guess.

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User is online   Micky C 

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#66

I remember someone here talking about how it's likely that much of the area in the skybox was actually originally playable area. That's speculation without any solid proof however.

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User is offline   Altered Reality 

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#67

The fact is, it wasn't a skybox. It was part (most) of the game area, walled off and with disabled collisions.

If your brain tells you one thing and your heart tells you another, get rid of those silly doubts and listen to your brain.
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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

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#68

They probably couldn't get performance good enough. I still don't sense any foul play.

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User is offline   Altered Reality 

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#69

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 04 January 2018 - 01:03 PM, said:

They probably couldn't get performance good enough. I still don't sense any foul play.

Yes, that's precisely the reason. "Cutting is shipping". As in, "Oh, so this area slows down the game on an Xbox 360. Fine, we're walling it off and make it nonsolid. That'll speed things up."

If your brain tells you one thing and your heart tells you another, get rid of those silly doubts and listen to your brain.
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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

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#70

That's common practice. Even when they're not "cutting to ship". The game was in development for 12 years, man. Let it go.

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User is offline   Altered Reality 

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#71

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 05 January 2018 - 05:27 PM, said:

That's common practice. Even when they're not "cutting to ship".

Is it also common practice to make a fully detailed area with the intention to make it explorable, then wall it off when consoles cannot sustain a playable frame rate?

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 05 January 2018 - 05:27 PM, said:

The game was in development for 12 years, man. Let it go.

Fifteen. Development started in 1996 with the creation of voxel objects, intended for use with a version of the Build engine. I'm sure George would LOOOOVE to be able to rewrite history books and make it look like he didn't fuck up for so many years. Fortunetely for us, once something is online and there are people interested to its history, it can never be removed.

If your brain tells you one thing and your heart tells you another, get rid of those silly doubts and listen to your brain.
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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

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#72

Yeah, and I'm sure all those assets were transferred over totally unmolested to the various new engines...

Either way, cutting out the various parts of the map for performance's sake would be the console's fault if any. If it was a PC only game maybe it wouldn't matter. But it wasn't. I still don't see this as being all George's fault. Don't get me wrong, he obviously mismanaged the whole process for those 15 years. Obviously. But making the decision to stop progressing and get something done was the best thing he did. His whole problem involved adding too much and having too many ideas.

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This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 06 January 2018 - 01:32 PM

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User is offline   TerminX 

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  #73

View PostAltered Reality, on 06 January 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:

Is it also common practice to make a fully detailed area with the intention to make it explorable, then wall it off when consoles cannot sustain a playable frame rate?

More common than you think, even with games that are only on PC.

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User is online   KareBear 

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#74

View PostAltered Reality, on 06 January 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:

Is it also common practice to make a fully detailed area with the intention to make it explorable, then wall it off when consoles cannot sustain a playable frame rate?


Fifteen. Development started in 1996 with the creation of voxel objects, intended for use with a version of the Build engine. I'm sure George would LOOOOVE to be able to rewrite history books and make it look like he didn't fuck up for so many years. Fortunetely for us, once something is online and there are people interested to its history, it can never be removed.


I don't doubt preliminary work on DNF began in 1996 those Duke 3D voxels were intended for the plutonium pack.

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User is offline   Jimmy 

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#75

Actually there was supposed to be a free V1.7 patch that added a few more things to the game, but development of DNF eclipsed that.

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User is offline   Damien_Azreal 

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#76

View PostAltered Reality, on 06 January 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:

Is it also common practice to make a fully detailed area with the intention to make it explorable, then wall it off when consoles cannot sustain a playable frame rate?


Yes.
Very common in fact. And not limited to console or multiplatform titles. PC exclusives tend to have just as much, if not more stuff cut from them before release.
It's just the nature of the beast.

Go and look at the Doom Bible, or the original Quake design doc. The amount of content that was cut was insane.
What you are showing here in DNF.... is common place. It's just a part of video game design. George's problem wasn't that he cut content from the game... it's that he waited far too long before doing so.
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User is offline   Altered Reality 

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#77

View PostDamien_Azreal, on 21 February 2018 - 04:58 PM, said:

Go and look at the Doom Bible, or the original Quake design doc. The amount of content that was cut was insane.

I read the Doom Bible way back in 1998. I was under the impression that the cutting happened before development even began, so there's never been a build actually showing the Tei Tenga planet, the various characters (who ended up in ROTT) or the demonic artifacts.

If your brain tells you one thing and your heart tells you another, get rid of those silly doubts and listen to your brain.
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User is offline   Damien_Azreal 

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#78

Yes, the majority of that stuff was cut before Doom started development, but there was plenty of content cut during development as well.

It's common place in the industry. And, getting upset because DNF has buildings only modeled and rendered from the front, of details being low poly/texture at a distance... is pointless. As you'd have to get upset at every game ever made.
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