[SPILL]

axl, on 17 July 2017 - 11:03 AM, said:

I appreciate the work. But personally I think that Blood benefits more from the original low res textures. It gives the game a certain grittiness and rawness...

Yes I agree. High res textures and 3D lighting are not needed for Blood. The lighting is already built into the environments and Blood already has the highest detailed texture work out of the holy trinity of build games. I am not necessarily against this but it would have to be near perfect for me to stand behind it. Might as well make Blood 3 if you're going to make all these embellishments

[Devon]

SPILL, on 17 July 2017 - 10:06 PM, said:

Yes I agree. High res textures and 3D lighting are not needed for Blood. The lighting is already built into the environments and Blood already has the highest detailed texture work out of the holy trinity of build games. I am not necessarily against this but it would have to be near perfect for me to stand behind it. Might as well make Blood 3 if you're going to make all these embellishments

+1

[fgsfds]

To be honest, I don't need HRP either. If it was for me, I'd never even add HRP support to BGDX.
But if I won't start making and maintaining it, someone else will, and I have a bad feeling about what they are going to do with it. At least now we can have some quality control, otherwise, it'll look like the screenshots above.
Anyway, I don't think it'll progress beyond a dozen of textures and some models. Just like SW's HRP.
People been working on Duke's HRP for a decade and it's still not complete.

[SonicB00M]

My advice would be to focus on voxels. They look phenomenal and add a lot to Blood while not tinkering with the original vision. I'm sorry, but the DukeHRP for example looks terrible. It makes Duke3D look like a sloppy Steam game made
by a 13 year old on his weekend. Those posters with women on them look like they are lifted from an awful porn game If anyone else with no skill starts making one for Blood, it would be even easier to ignore it.

[max_nukem]

fgsfds, on 18 July 2017 - 12:06 AM, said:

To be honest, I don't need HRP either. If it was for me, I'd never even add HRP support to BGDX.
If I won't start making it, someone else will, and I have a bad feeling about what they are going to do with it. At least now we can have some quality control, otherwise, it'll look like the screenshots above.
Anyway, I don't think it'll progress beyond a dozen of textures and some models. Just like SW's HRP.
People been working on Duke's HRP for a decade and it's still not complete.

HD textures and Dynamic light will decorate the game and make it better.
You did a good job. Respect.
Fuck all haters. Let them try to do something. Not them to decide what need in the game and what is not.
Sorry for my bad english))

[Fantinaikos]

Blood does not have the highest detail possible for his atmosphere, that is just a complete bullshit. Visually Blood uses a technology already old in 1997 when Quake, one of the first (if not the first) knowed FPS in a real 3D engine where even the texture looked more smooth comed out in 1996. The introduction of the voxels option by Monolith itself is a clear indication that they tried to be in step with the times with what they had. So you can be sure that if they could to make the game in high resolution, they would.

So stop being butthurth about someone want to make 3D your 2D waifus, just make good textures/models respecting the original sources.

[Mark]

fgsfds, on 18 July 2017 - 12:06 AM, said:

Anyway, I don't think it'll progress beyond a dozen of textures and some models. Just like SW's HRP.

The SW HRP is much larger than a dozen textures. I did about 120 of them myself. I don't remember the total number of textures and models.
It sounds like you guys would yell "Blasphemy" if you ever played the bonus map of my Graveyard TC. I remade the first level of Blood using fancy textures and lighting. I'm in the process of updating that map too in between other projects.

[icecoldduke]

SPILL, on 17 July 2017 - 10:06 PM, said:

Yes I agree. High res textures and 3D lighting are not needed for Blood. The lighting is already built into the environments and Blood already has the highest detailed texture work out of the holy trinity of build games. I am not necessarily against this but it would have to be near perfect for me to stand behind it. Might as well make Blood 3 if you're going to make all these embellishments

I disagree with you completely. Blood can have a HRP pack if the textures are done with the original art style in mind. HRP devs need to understand composition, palette, and the original art style. I think its more then doable.

[Devon]

icecoldduke, on 18 July 2017 - 04:37 AM, said:

I disagree with you completely. Blood can have a HRP pack if the textures are done with the original art style in mind. HRP devs need to understand composition, palette, and the original art style. I think its more then doable.

one guy made an pretty damn awsome texture pack for the turok 1 remaster on steam and it captures the original look very well.

So if it can be done with Turok then it should be possible with Blood.
I wont hold my breath though as it not only takes time making real good textures but also alot of talent.

Still i if anything that looks like the original comes out it will try it out.

[Devon]

fgsfds, on 18 July 2017 - 12:06 AM, said:

To be honest, I don't need HRP either. If it was for me, I'd never even add HRP support to BGDX.
If I won't start making it, someone else will, and I have a bad feeling about what they are going to do with it. At least now we can have some quality control, otherwise, it'll look like the screenshots above.
Anyway, I don't think it'll progress beyond a dozen of textures and some models. Just like SW's HRP.
People been working on Duke's HRP for a decade and it's still not complete.

Yeah i understand you fully.
I wouldnt want a horrible hrp pack either out here.

It is better if someone who knows what is needed starts one first to scare away other stupid hrp projects.

[Mark]

A big problem is it has to be an all or nothing project. 20 or 30 good looking textures mixed in with blurry/blocky originals will look bad.

[SPILL]

icecoldduke, on 18 July 2017 - 04:37 AM, said:

I disagree with you completely. Blood can have a HRP pack if the textures are done with the original art style in mind. HRP devs need to understand composition, palette, and the original art style. I think its more then doable.

I think you mean you agree with me. I said that I am not against this. It just needs to be done thoroughly and artistically and damn near perfect. Which is exactly what you are proposing. I also said Blood doesn't "need" this. It has survived just fine without it. That does not mean it cannot benefit from HRP.

[Tea Monster]

The Duke HRP suffered from no creative direction and then, when Polymer came along, no effort was made to adjust the old assets to the new renderer, resulting in some really awful situations.

[Jimmy]

It also suffered from being purely an asset swap. For the HRP to ever be good some programming is required.

[icecoldduke]

Jimmy, on 18 July 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

It also suffered from being purely an asset swap. For the HRP to ever be good some programming is required.

Why?

[Devon]

icecoldduke, on 18 July 2017 - 05:51 PM, said:

Why?

Just take the interpolotion on hud weapons in the duke hrp is one thing that has needed fixing from the get go.
Doesnt matter how good models you create if they all animate like crap.
it is because the enemy rotation is awful.. does not translate well from 2d sprite to 3d model.

This was discussed many years ago but it never got alot of attention.
My guess is that it has to be very hard to implement.
Same with the sector interpolotion wich makes both eduke and shadow warrior swp source ports.


That is one of the main things BloodGDX gets right from the start as it is smooth without this stupid stutter.

[Tea Monster]

What about the asset swap? Was Jimmy repeating what I said or did he mean something else?

[Jimmy]

I don't know how I can explain it any simpler. You can't just dump 3D assets into a 2D game and expect them to work perfectly. Some programming is required.

A good example is rockets; They don't have proper pitch and roll, so they just look retarded. And as mentioned above, literally nothing is animated properly. Everything is janky and looks like shit.

My problem with the HRP has always been that it's a lazy, poorly put together asset swap.

[Devon]

Jimmy, on 19 July 2017 - 09:34 PM, said:

I don't know how I can explain it any simpler. You can't just dump 3D assets into a 2D game and expect them to work perfectly. Some programming is required.

A good example is rockets; They don't have proper pitch and roll, so they just look retarded. And as mentioned above, literally nothing is animated properly. Everything is janky and looks like shit.

My problem with the HRP has always been that it's a lazy, poorly put together asset swap.

To be fair though we cant blame the people who only makes 3d models.

This should be pointed at the programmers themselfes.

Alot of the models look pretty damn good actually.

[SonicB00M]

Blame the programmers? The enemy sprites in the Build engine games were never designed to be replaced with 3D models. Why blaming them because some people want to force 3D into their games?

[icecoldduke]

SonicB00M, on 20 July 2017 - 01:54 AM, said:

The enemy sprites in the Build engine games were never designed to be replaced with 3D models.

Build has always supported 3d models...aka voxels :/.

[Devon]

SonicB00M, on 20 July 2017 - 01:54 AM, said:

Blame the programmers? The enemy sprites in the Build engine games were never designed to be replaced with 3D models. Why blaming them because some people want to force 3D into their games?

Because the programmers are responsible for the support of the models that are being made.
Without them there would be no support for any of the features present in the polymer renderer.
Problem is that we need better support for 3d assets as of right now it looks ok but animates like crap due to (sprite frame limitation?)

I wish there could be some good interpolotion in duke and shadow warrior... like there is in Quake 1 for example.

[SonicB00M]

icecoldduke, on 20 July 2017 - 07:36 AM, said:

Build has always supported 3d models...aka voxels :/.

I specifically said 'enemy sprites'. And you cannot blame devs for not implementing something they never wanted in their games.

[icecoldduke]

SonicB00M, on 20 July 2017 - 07:54 AM, said:

I specifically said 'enemy sprites'. And you cannot blame devs for not implementing something they never wanted in their games.

The build engine supported voxels because dev teams kept bugging ken for voxel support. So I'm not sure what your talking about . Furthermore didn't the Duke3D devs create voxel enemy sprites at some point?

[Mark]

Jimmy, on 19 July 2017 - 09:34 PM, said:

I don't know how I can explain it any simpler. You can't just dump 3D assets into a 2D game and expect them to work perfectly. Some programming is required.

A good example is rockets; They don't have proper pitch and roll, so they just look retarded. And as mentioned above, literally nothing is animated properly. Everything is janky and looks like shit.

My problem with the HRP has always been that it's a lazy, poorly put together asset swap.

My recollection was I couldn't see and pitch and roll when firing rockets from the RPG. Its too fast.So I just did a comparison between software with sprites and 32 bit with models. What pitch and roll? If its there I can't see it.

[SonicB00M]

icecoldduke, on 20 July 2017 - 07:57 AM, said:

The build engine supported voxels because dev teams kept bugging ken for voxel support. So I'm not sure what your talking about .

Glad you read my post again and checked that I indeed WROTE enemy sprites;)

Well and that is what Ken delivered: Basic voxel support for a few objects with limited to no animation. Not to be able to mutate the devs' games into ugly 3D games 20 years later. That is why I take offense with 'blame the developers'. When you order soup at a restaurant, you wouldn't exactly blame the chef for not making you a sandwich too.

[icecoldduke]

SonicB00M, on 20 July 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

Well and that is what Ken delivered: Basic voxel support for a few objects with limited to no animation.

I guess my argument is, if Ken delivered something more useful for enemy sprites, I would argue the devs would have used it. I wonder if you just made voxel frame replacements for the enemy sprites, and created some interpolation between frames; would that have been enough?

[Kyanos]

Voxels are huge memory hogs, modern hardware is all about gpu. 3d voxel enemies will also suffer from the same animation issues as poly models, it's about translating sprite animations to 3d. The two need to be done differently, as it sits now in EDuke32 we have animation smoothing and the ability to squeeze multiple md3 frames into the game where only one sprite would be displayed. It's not as choppy as it could be but sometimes an enemy will be part way through an action animation as it's state changes and the interpolation system is still not quite enough to make it look proper. Add in the stupid shit where models clip through sector geo and the issues with quality variance and IMO the hrp is a long way off from being "good"

No offence to individual modellers, a lot of that stuff is really great, it's just the package as a whole that is not quite all it's cracked up to be.


Ps. As far as I know, no build game ever shipped any animated voxels. Not till voxlap did the format get polished and working well enough to handle some real game stuff, but then build and shoot went to OpenGL style and now even voxlap is done for I think :/

[Jimmy]

icecoldduke, on 20 July 2017 - 07:36 AM, said:

Build has always supported 3d models...aka voxels :/.

This is a disingenuous reply, that is not at all what he meant and you know it.

Devon, on 20 July 2017 - 07:48 AM, said:

Because the programmers are responsible for the support of the models that are being made.
Without them there would be no support for any of the features present in the polymer renderer.
Problem is that we need better support for 3d assets as of right now it looks ok but animates like crap due to (sprite frame limitation?)

I wish there could be some good interpolotion in duke and shadow warrior... like there is in Quake 1 for example.

There is nothing holding back the HRP. CON is totally sufficient enough to handle all the animation issues and whatnot. No one has done it. On the flipside, it should most certainly not be hardcoded into EDuke32 if thats what you're inferring.

icecoldduke, on 20 July 2017 - 07:57 AM, said:

Furthermore didn't the Duke3D devs create voxel enemy sprites at some point?

Not really. There was a turret voxel (plus other mostly static objects) made after Atomic Edition was released. This was for the abandoned 1.7 patch and/or DNF. Voxel enemies were never planned for Duke3D. There were attempts made for Shadow Warrior, but I think they quickly figured out that voxel enemies look like shit and are difficult to create.

Mark., on 20 July 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

My recollection was I couldn't see and pitch and roll when firing rockets from the RPG. Its too fast.So I just did a comparison between software with sprites and 32 bit with models. What pitch and roll? If its there I can't see it.

There didn't use to be, TX says that there is now when it's fired by the player. It looks like some other sources of RPG fire have issues still though.

[Devon]

Jimmy, on 20 July 2017 - 01:55 PM, said:

This is a disingenuous reply, that is not at all what he meant and you know it.


There is nothing holding back the HRP. CON is totally sufficient enough to handle all the animation issues and whatnot. No one has done it. On the flipside, it should most certainly not be hardcoded into EDuke32 if thats what you're inferring.


Not really. There was a turret voxel (plus other mostly static objects) made after Atomic Edition was released. This was for the abandoned 1.7 patch and/or DNF. Voxel enemies were never planned for Duke3D. There were attempts made for Shadow Warrior, but I think they quickly figured out that voxel enemies look like shit and are difficult to create.


There didn't use to be, TX says that there is now when it's fired by the player. It looks like some other sources of RPG fire have issues still though.

I just dont get it though... why isnt this kind of 3d model interpolation done yet on the hud weapon animation in eduke32?

Im no programmer so please dont take it the wrong way as im in no means mocking or trying to insult anyone here.

It is just that i see all these awsome achivements with the dynamic lightning and the shadows and what not and... still no smooth animations for this.

When/if BloodGDX gets 3d model support i hope to all i hold dear that it will have smooth animations for the hud weapons so they animate as nice as some of the quake 1 source ports do.