[PokeThePower]

MetHy, on 17 November 2020 - 01:17 AM, said:

Well, are you absolutely positive you built the jailcell?

MetHy, on 17 November 2020 - 01:17 AM, said:

The sector numbers do indicate the cell was the first thing built (all 30 or so first sectnums are that cell, the bed being sector0).

Very positive... there's only one time in my career I recall using geo from someone else's level as part of my personal layout and that was the black light table in SiN's Oilrig which was deliberately pulled from Mike Wardwell's original version of Oilrig as a nod of respect for throwing out his design as well as I liked it as a structure. There's rarely a reason to use someone else's geo back then and TONS of reasons not to. The sector numbers you mentioned reinforce my point that the idea of making a vehicle crash into the jail to free you was the original premise and the rest of the map evolved around it. Top Secret used some of Robert's stuff but that was a conscious choice by us and a spinoff in the bonus space for the teleport experience, not part of the original level layout.

MetHy, on 17 November 2020 - 01:17 AM, said:

If Shawn was going to be credited anyway, might as well use his jail cell right?

When MM was being built there would have been no reason to suspect Shawn wasn't going to finish a map for the project and receive normal credit. You're applying post-hoc information that didn't exist at the time the Carib levels were being built.

MetHy, on 17 November 2020 - 01:17 AM, said:

As for the rest of the map, thinking some other areas could have belonged to a fort, I'm probably reading too much into it indeed. My main thought were centered on using bars for windows and on the hotel reception. "Who would use bars for windows of a small convenience store?

The original presentation was a much seedier setup. The hotel was just a rent-a-room for an hour sort of establishment to give you the context. Robert made about half of the surrounding market more "respectable" appearing but left others more favela like. So the hotel remained a rent-by-the-hour establishment, but it was now above what would be considered the more wealthy portion of the market which I liked a lot. Bars on businesses are not unusual sights in those sort of establishments. The TV screens at the "reception" area were part of the rent-by-the-hour nature of the hotel.

MetHy, on 17 November 2020 - 01:17 AM, said:

Interesting, do you remember who built this secret apartment in the 2nd street ? (which I had no idea existed until a couple of days ago so it's probably a spoilers to some other people also!)

All Robert. I had also forgotten that existed until you just mentioned it... which will actually double down on something I'm going to mention about Full House later.

MetHy, on 17 November 2020 - 01:17 AM, said:

On that subject, do you know/remember anything about Library for Duke Xtreme, or any of the uncredited maps for Route 66? Without checking on the dates precisely, I think you weren't working with Sunstorm anymore during dev of Route 66, but you may have seen things nonetheless.

I don't know much about Duke Xtreme. My only involvement with that was spending evenings talking to Jeff Armstrong since he worked in one of the labs at UT Austin while I was a student there. He and I chatted about what he was doing and I gave tips where I could but otherwise was focused on Duke DC. Years later I was surprised to learn Robert had built (more likely just polished and submitted existing) levels for it.

I was at Sunstorm during Route 66 but fully focused on Wanton Destruction. Well... WD and also focused on getting a job at Ritual. I didn't get much sleep during those months.

MetHy, on 17 November 2020 - 01:17 AM, said:

One of the things that I didn't mention in my analysis is how I always thought it was odd that the fish tanks don't use PAL 1: the blue palette which would make it look like "underwater area", even when looking at it from overwater, through the glass. RT used the blue palette for all his fish tanks, from day one (Beta One); so at first before I changed my mind I thought it could a clue that they are indeed WBB's; but frankly it doesn't mean anything, maybe RT did build them and he simply forgot about the blue palette, maybe the lack of it can be attributed to a (relative) lack of polish for the smaller details in the map.

I mean, this is a pretty strong clue. Robert was quite OCD about stuff like that... which is precisely why he has a style all his own. He would not hesitate to rebuild from the ground up if it meant doing it right and he considered what he was working on "his".

In addition if I understand right... Full House doesn't have any tagged secret areas. Robert *loved* secret areas and it was not uncommon for his design effort to give as much attention to the approach and experience of a secret area as the main path. Full House having no tagged secret areas doubles down my confidence that it was a space Robert needed to get up to snuff quickly but otherwise was not a design he considered his own. He added that secret area to MM but didn't consider the map his design. FH having no secret areas tagged and planned from the start is a bit like the PAL inconsistency to me.

MetHy, on 17 November 2020 - 01:17 AM, said:

I've tried to find him but with no success. I don't intend to push it any further personally, because when I see that someone isn't a public person, I take as a sign that they probably don't want to be found and be bothered by strangers, which is perfectly understandable, and I think I should respect that. Unlike you, it's not like I know the guy.

Yeah, even having a personal history with him I try to respect if he doesn't have a publicly visible contact to just not dig too deep. In years past he always had a portfolio or eventually the GooglePlus page. Considering that anyone sufficiently motivated can find how to get a hold of me... I now leave it at if he wants to chat he will.

MetHy, on 17 November 2020 - 01:17 AM, said:

The Airplane level is indeed worth being remembered and noted by Keith and Cole... but in the name of god why didn't you make the curtains seperating each area semi-transparent

Honest answer is at the time I thought it was more fun to have to balance trying to attack blindly from the "safety" of outside the curtains via grenades/etc. vs penetrating into the cabin and fighting with visibility. That falls into a similar "design regret" for getting the key below the plane and off the tail where I would certainly adjust them now though I would try to retain the spirit. To be quite frank, I'm amazed the Sunstorm levels turned out as well as they did... we had virtually no player feedback loop for iteration. What you see in most Sunstorm levels is more or less the first pass of the level designer with only some modest playtests by far too experienced level designers + Tony and the Deer Hunter guys. Some of the Wanton Destruction multiplayer levels got more studio playtest attention than the single player levels in general just because we loved playing Wang Bang.

[PokeThePower]

MetHy, on 17 November 2020 - 08:11 AM, said:

Even if that means skipping 90% of MM (the alt exit is near the start) !

Yeah that's something that will always kind of give me the willies but I also kinda like that in that mission you can exit with the sense you have missed something.

MetHy, on 17 November 2020 - 08:11 AM, said:

Edit: btw I hope you're not pissed at me if it sounded like I was trying to refute you built some of the things you built, I didn't mean it like that but now I see that it could be interpretated the wrong way.

No not at all... I *prefer* to be challenged and doubted on stuff like that and much appreciated the research you were putting in. My personal commentary on the history of these things doesn't carry any real weight if it can't stand up to scrutiny and be corrected when wrong.

[MetHy]

InnervateInna, on 17 November 2020 - 08:48 AM, said:

When MM was being built there would have been no reason to suspect Shawn wasn't going to finish a map for the project and receive normal credit. You're applying post-hoc information that didn't exist at the time the Carib levels were being built.

Well, I'm not very knowledgeable on the precise timeline, and since Shawn mentionned he left early, I assumed MM would have been made after.

Quote

All Robert. I had also forgotten that existed until you just mentioned it... which will actually double down on something I'm going to mention about Full House later.

Frankly I was a bit testing you here, as I was very confident I already had the answer to the question. If you compare with the secret apartment in DC's Capitol Punishment, you should notice an uncanny ressemblance between the two appartments. I think RT copy pasted that room from Capitol Punishment and upgraded it; just like some of the other "copy paste improvements"I've pointed out in that thread (the corridor from Aztec to Lost Lagoon). In this case the TV and the furniture it stands on is a big give away.
Both appartment are also very reminiscent of his map "oldhouse" from Xtreme, which as you said is likely to be an older map.

Quote

Years later I was surprised to learn Robert had built (more likely just polished and submitted existing) levels for [Xtreme].

Yes, I suspect that also.

Quote

I mean, this is a pretty strong clue. Robert was quite OCD about stuff like that... which is precisely why he has a style all his own. He would not hesitate to rebuild from the ground up if it meant doing it right and he considered what he was working on "his".

In addition if I understand right... Full House doesn't have any tagged secret areas. Robert *loved* secret areas and it was not uncommon for his design effort to give as much attention to the approach and experience of a secret area as the main path. Full House having no tagged secret areas doubles down my confidence that it was a space Robert needed to get up to snuff quickly but otherwise was not a design he considered his own. He added that secret area to MM but didn't consider the map his design. FH having no secret areas tagged and planned from the start is a bit like the PAL inconsistency to me.

What if the map doesn't have his sig, exactly because he didn't feel good about it because he felt it didn't meet his current standars, all because, being out of time, he had to use an old map as a base and finish it quickly?
Hopefully I'll be able to talk with Bill and I can drop the endless theories on A Full House though.

Quote

Honest answer is at the time I thought it was more fun to have to balance trying to attack blindly from the "safety" of outside the curtains via grenades/etc. vs penetrating into the cabin and fighting with visibility. That falls into a similar "design regret" for getting the key below the plane and off the tail where I would certainly adjust them now though I would try to retain the spirit. To be quite frank, I'm amazed the Sunstorm levels turned out as well as they did... we had virtually no player feedback loop for iteration. What you see in most Sunstorm levels is more or less the first pass of the level designer with only some modest playtests by far too experienced level designers + Tony and the Deer Hunter guys. Some of the Wanton Destruction multiplayer levels got more studio playtest attention than the single player levels in general just because we loved playing Wang Bang.

Those keys are alright by me (although it took me a while to be confident enough about them that I didn't feel the need to save before picking them up), except maybe the forced fall damage (I think) for the one on top of the plane. Though forced damage and Shadow Warrior go hand in hand; the og devs made sure of that when spawning a ninja at the start of the game before the player has any time to get used to the controls and configure the settings; as a warning I suppose.

Interesting that you knew the Deer Hunter devs. I had assumed Sunstorm had contracted their game(s) but weren't necesarilly in close contact with the devs. Would you be able to confirm some of the things I mentionned in this post, the surprise success Deer Hunter had and how it singlehandeldy launched the hunting/casual game craze?

[PokeThePower]

MetHy, on 17 November 2020 - 09:28 AM, said:

Well, I'm not very knowledgeable on the precise timeline, and since Shawn mentionned he left early, I assumed MM would have been made after.

My memory of development order was Market Melee, Wavemistress, Alien Remains, then MP maps mixed in but mostly worked on near the end (and not much time dedicated to them obviously).

MetHy, on 17 November 2020 - 09:28 AM, said:

Frankly I was a bit testing you here, as I was very confident I already had the answer to the question.

My priority is always to be as reliable of a witness as I can within my ability. I only stand to lose by over-claiming... nothing about my professional future benefits from claiming extra on Sunstorm titles. I can certainly have a faulty memory though and try to mention my confidence level for context.

MetHy, on 17 November 2020 - 09:28 AM, said:

What if the map doesn't have his sig, exactly because he didn't feel good about it because he felt it didn't meet his current standars, all because, being out of time, he had to use an old map as a base and finish it quickly?
Hopefully I'll be able to talk with Bill and I can drop the endless theories on A Full House though.

Obviously I can't say absolutely no to your theory, but it's bending a lot of variables that leave unresolved questions where a much simpler explanation resolves them all and would be standard development practice. But yeah fingers crossed Bill will be reachable and has some recollection.

MetHy, on 17 November 2020 - 09:28 AM, said:

Those keys are alright by me (although it took me a while to be confident enough about them that I didn't feel the need to save before picking them up)...

That's where I would adjust... my goal was to make you initially feel that hesitation and lack of confidence stepping out at all... but neither of them required depending on such precise exit movements to safety in order to evoke that feeling. It's too binary in terms of punishment for people who haven't developed those sort of perfectly timed backward jumps.

The bottom key could have provided a strafe to the side exit since the real fear desired was simply getting on the ladder at all and moving downward. The upper key could have permitted just walking off the tail to get it and landing directly below (with the existing health waiting there). Just reaching the tail was more than enough for the key to be satisfying, the jump doesn't add much to most players and adds rage quit to some for no good reason.

MetHy, on 17 November 2020 - 09:28 AM, said:

Interesting that you knew the Deer Hunter devs. I had assumed Sunstorm had contracted their game(s) but weren't necesarilly in close contact with the devs.

Deer Hunter was all Sunstorm. Sunstorm's office at that time was effectively one big room, Tony's office, and a conference room. Mike Root and Jim Boer sat in the same main pit with Robert and I. Mike Buck was contract and offsite most of the time. However Deer Hunter was really Mike and Jim's baby. Robert and I playtested it during development.

It was certainly an unexpected hit. The apocryphal story is a Wal-Mart buyer mentioned to someone at GT Interactive that they think a hunting game would do well... and that was passed on to Wizard Works who signed up Sunstorm to take a crack at it. Another version is someone mentioned it to Tony who pitched it to Wizard Works... I don't know what the truth is though. The deal was something like a fixed $200,000 budget, no royalties, and short development schedule. The success VASTLY exceeded the expectations and Deer Hunter sequels have more to do with Sunstorm's initial financial growth than any of the build engine work. However since Sunstorm didn't own Deer Hunter and was only the first contracted dev, it meant they couldn't capitalize on the franchise directly and were always at the mercy of the publisher.

I don't remember anything about how Redneck Deer Huntin' was made though if your timing is correct then it was likely developed when I headed over to Ritual. Your speculation makes sense that Xatrix was given the codebase to reskin with new textures and it came out in 1998. Most of the development might have happened in 1997 though.

[MetHy]

InnervateInna, on 17 November 2020 - 11:18 AM, said:

My priority is always to be as reliable of a witness as I can within my ability. I only stand to lose by over-claiming... nothing about my professional future benefits from claiming extra on Sunstorm titles. I can certainly have a faulty memory though and try to mention my confidence level for context.

I didn't mean to say you were unreliable either, and the question was also to see if I could get a confirmation on who I thought made the room.

Quote

It was certainly an unexpected hit. The apocryphal story is a Wal-Mart buyer mentioned to someone at GT Interactive that they think a hunting game would do well... and that was passed on to Wizard Works who signed up Sunstorm to take a crack at it. Another version is someone mentioned it to Tony who pitched it to Wizard Works... I don't know what the truth is though. The deal was something like a fixed $200,000 budget, no royalties, and short development schedule. The success VASTLY exceeded the expectations and Deer Hunter sequels have more to do with Sunstorm's initial financial growth than any of the build engine work. However since Sunstorm didn't own Deer Hunter and was only the first contracted dev, it meant they couldn't capitalize on the franchise directly and were always at the mercy of the publisher.

Interesting. Also, there is a slightly different version on the Mobygames page . You may also note the credits at the bottom of the page to see who's responsible for some of the edits on that page.

Quote

I don't remember anything about how Redneck Deer Huntin' was made though if your timing is correct then it was likely developed when I headed over to Ritual. Your speculation makes sense that Xatrix was given the codebase to reskin with new textures and it came out in 1998. Most of the development might have happened in 1997 though.

Oh, I didn't mean to say they used Deer Hunter code as a base for Redneck Deer Huntin', only that the later copied the first. Though, considering Xatrix and Sunstorm were in contact at least thanks to Route 66 (or so I assume, maybe Sunstorm's only contact was Interplay), you may be onto something, and maybe they've seen that code base indeed.
Also I have no doubts anymore that Redneck Deer Huntin' came out in 1998 since all the dates (copyright on disc, disc case cover, but also file dates) all say 1998. Only the throw-away mousepad edition says 2002.

[PokeThePower]

MetHy, on 17 November 2020 - 11:30 AM, said:

Interesting. Also, there is a slightly different version on the Mobygames page . You may also note the credits at the bottom of the page to see who's responsible for some of the edits on that page.

Ahh there we go yeah Jim's notes are probably closest to the mark... with things like the $200,000 either being the initial total publisher costs vs just payment to Sunstorm... or proposed budget for sequel... or just some conversation I had with Tony that meant nothing.

As that blurb confirms it was Mike and Jim's baby, they came up with that initial formula that worked so well and were sitting there in the pit with Robert and I playing the hell out of Shadow Warrior wang bang on our lunch breaks.

MetHy, on 17 November 2020 - 11:30 AM, said:

Oh, I didn't mean to say they used Deer Hunter code as a base for Redneck Deer Huntin', only that the later copied the first. Though, considering Xatrix and Sunstorm were in contact at least thanks to Route 66 (or so I assume, maybe Sunstorm's only contact was Interplay), you may be onto something, and maybe they've seen that code base indeed.

Derp... actually looking at the other screenshots now it's coming back to me what that project was and they definitely didn't build off the Deer Hunter codebase for obvious reasons. Access may or may not have happened but I think you're right they took direct inspiration from OG Deer Hunter's design where appropriate as their starting point.

This is the game I was thinking of that I always wondered if it was an actual dupe of the code base or just a quick clone.

[Phredreeke]

Wasn't Redneck Deer Huntin' made by Xatrix themselves and not Sunstorm though?

[PokeThePower]

Phredreeke, on 17 November 2020 - 12:55 PM, said:

Wasn't Redneck Deer Huntin' made by Xatrix themselves and not Sunstorm though?

Yeah, that was what I had mixed up here:

InnervateInna, on 17 November 2020 - 11:18 AM, said:

Your speculation makes sense that Xatrix was given the codebase to reskin with new textures and it came out in 1998. Most of the development might have happened in 1997 though.

It was Deer's Revenge that I had always wondered whether they just outright cloned Deer Hunter from scratch or if they were given access to the game's source to reskin. Redneck Deer Huntin' was built in build so definitely was not based on anything directly from what Sunstorm had built for Deer Hunter, only inspired by to quickly capitalize on the market that obviously would have redneck appeal.

[Jimmy]

As a redneck pc gamer from back then, I can confirm that it was a sleeper hit. Every other redneck I knew had that game and Redneck Rampage. There wasn't much for us back then so that shit really blew up, explains all the sequels and knock offs that came.

I still got the big box Deer Hunter somewhere.

[PokeThePower]

Jimmy, on 17 November 2020 - 02:00 PM, said:

As a redneck pc gamer from back then, I can confirm that it was a sleeper hit. Every other redneck I knew had that game and Redneck Rampage. There wasn't much for us back then so that shit really blew up, explains all the sequels and knock offs that came.

I still got the big box Deer Hunter somewhere.

Yeah my uncle who built his career working on 18 wheelers and I spent months of my college years helping by scrubbing the maintenance bay floors, washing the trucks, and the worst... dumping absolutely rank smelling oil into the proper disposal (worse than cleaning the female toilets at Winn Dixie... but only just barely)... asked me if I knew anything about this "Deer Hunter" game he had heard about. I had to laugh when I told him that the people I had gone to work for after living with him is who made it. It was at that point he said (paraphrasing) "Maybe dropping out of college to make these 'puter programs was a good idea!"

The Rodeo Shootout with the 3DR devs showing up, Duke it out in DC... none of that hit home. Deer Hunter and later Deer's Revenge which I had nothing to do with was what convinced him that I might actually have a job.

[MetHy]

I have made contact with Bill Buchalter. I will share the entire Q&A eventually as well, just bare with me, like I said I want to take the time to do it properly out of respect for the people taking the time to answer my questions.

However, I just had to post this bit right away (again, he said it's okay to share it):

WBB said:

The last project I worked on for Sunstorm was Duke Nukem Caribbean Vacation. By this time Duke’s
popularity was beginning to wane, and Quake was taking over. Robert was already starting to experiment
and learn how to use the Quake engine. I was a new dad at the time (my first daughter had just been
born) so unfortunately, I didn’t have the spare time to devote to learning a new engine. I barely had the
time to design my level for Duke Caribbean, but I did manage to finish the casino level for that project. I
do recall that Robert ended up going through in the end and changing a lot of the aspects of my level to
fit the theme they had in mind. I remember being a bit disappointed and not really feeling like the level
was “mine” because of so many of the changes. It was the last project I worked on for Sunstorm.

The question I asked was a general question on his time with Sunstorm; I didn't want to ask a biaised question and was hoping he would indeed bring the subject of A Full House on his own.

I think that settles it then!

InnervateInna, on 17 November 2020 - 01:13 PM, said:

Yeah, that was what I had mixed up here

Those hunting games sure are confusing!

[PokeThePower]

Awesome, glad that contact avenue paid off and one more fairly substantial piece of the history puzzle secured!

MetHy, on 18 November 2020 - 10:10 AM, said:

Those hunting games sure are confusing!

Well guess what... turns out I even had THAT game all mixed up with another one. The one I've always thought of when someone says "that redneck themed hunting game" had "Help, I'm naked and have a pizza!" as one of the bait calls.

Turns out *that* one was Deer Avenger, which is different from Deer's Revenge that I previously mentioned.


Deer's Revenge is a more accurate and direct 1:1 ripoff, but Deer Avenger was the more successful one that had sequels, etc.

[MetHy]

InnervateInna, on 18 November 2020 - 11:10 AM, said:

Awesome, glad that contact avenue paid off and one more fairly substantial piece of the history puzzle secured!

Yes. I should have sticked to my first theory and STFU'd after that instead of trying to read too much into it. Now I realize I probably called Bill a "mimick" ! I feel terrible.
The sector numbers thing may also prove to be even less trust worthy than I thought.

[NNC]

Good job, Corentin. Based on the snippets I've read in this thread, Robert wasn't a particularly kind person, and he was a stressful and demanding boss character.

[Jimmy]

I think the hunting game is still an untapped market. I was looking at modern ones and it still comes across as shovelware. You could do a lot with the theme, and I think it would hit off. Every hunter/gamer I know mostly plays Call of Duty. If you could design a good hunting game with a very silly atmosphere like Tony Hawk I think it could do well. Have a main campaign that's kind of serious and "teaches" you basic things about hunting and it's culture, give it some harder levels where wild boar, bears, wolves and stuff are hunting you. Then open it up with African expeditions, hunting the Bigfoot, going back in time to hunt dinosaurs, crazy guns no one really hunts with, Predator cloaking, etc

[MetHy]

The Watchtower, on 18 November 2020 - 11:18 AM, said:

Good job, Corentin. Based on the snippets I've read in this thread, Robert wasn't a particularly kind person, and he was a stressful and demanding boss character.

I don't want to speak for other people but I can assure you I've read some good stuff about him too, and you will also when I get the time to post all the Q&As properly.

Jimmy, on 18 November 2020 - 11:24 AM, said:

crazy guns no one really hunts with

Here goes dynamite fishing!
Wait, you said things no one really hunts with.

[NNC]

Btw. it seems I was wrong when I said FH is an older build of Travis... it certainly looks like it though. Based on Bill's somewhat salty comment there might have been vast changes in the level, and those Travis remarks were probably all new to Bill's original concept. A beta version where Bill left the map would be an interesting find.

[Lunick]

I'm glad we have a complete list of credits for Caribbean finally, we were only missing The Docks and A Full House initially but we finally got to find out about Bill

[PokeThePower]

Lunick, on 18 November 2020 - 01:21 PM, said:

I'm glad we have a complete list of credits for Caribbean finally, we were only missing The Docks and A Full House initially but we finally got to find out about Bill

Ja, it puts a good bookend on the lingering plot holes.

The Watchtower, on 18 November 2020 - 11:35 AM, said:

Based on Bill's somewhat salty comment there might have been vast changes in the level, and those Travis remarks were probably all new to Bill's original concept. A beta version where Bill left the map would be an interesting find.

Obviously I can't speak for Bill and the full Q&A might give better insight into his perspective, but I didn't read the part quoted as particularly salty despite the disappointment. Just a frank recognition that what was released wasn't something he could for better and worse confidently say "That's my level". That doesn't necessarily mean he thinks poorly of Robert's changes. I wouldn't feel right being given 100% credit for Market Melee or Top Secret, especially from anyone who loved those levels. It's similar to what Bill said... there is a degree of disappointment in not being able to unambiguously assert they are "mine" good and bad. It's far more enjoyable to 100% own blistering criticism of your work than accept praise for something that has a blurred responsibility. I had the advantage of being in the same room with Robert and approaching his changes to my levels with the shared desire for them to be improved for the player... Bill almost certainly only found out what the changes were after the fact, with no input.

The Watchtower, on 18 November 2020 - 11:35 AM, said:

Btw. it seems I was wrong when I said FH is an older build of Travis... it certainly looks like it though.

MetHy, on 18 November 2020 - 11:14 AM, said:

Yes. I should have sticked to my first theory and STFU'd after that instead of trying to read too much into it. Now I realize I probably called Bill a "mimick" ! I feel terrible.

I was biting my tongue because I just didn't have a firm enough memory to be absolutely sure and say STOP! However the entire time these investigations were going on my instinct was screaming that it was wildly off base despite being super interesting possibilities to consider. For me the high structure of the level has always screamed "Not Robert" but I can't put why down in meaningful ways. It was just missing something fundamental I always get out of Robert's spaces.

I think both of you keyed in for good reason to some interesting tangible clues... but were downplaying DNA level clues that meant more to me (door/entryway patterns, the lack of secrets tagged, the PAL values).

MetHy, on 18 November 2020 - 11:14 AM, said:

The sector numbers thing may also prove to be even less trust worthy than I thought.

It's very context relevant. The sector numbers unintentionally reinforced my comment about Market Melee existing first because of the jail sequence and the rest of the level was made up from there.

The Watchtower, on 18 November 2020 - 11:18 AM, said:

Based on the snippets I've read in this thread, Robert wasn't a particularly kind person, and he was a stressful and demanding boss character.

MetHy, on 18 November 2020 - 11:33 AM, said:

I don't want to speak for other people but I can assure you I've read some good stuff about him too, and you will also when I get the time to post all the Q&As properly.

I tried to be very deliberate in how I phrased things in this thread but likely still failed. Robert was an exceptionally gentle and friendly man. I can't say how he was by Manhattan Project but I was never given any reason to be concerned.

However... he was also a build artiste and knew he was unique. So he made sure people knew when something could be better (his appropriate responsibility as effectively lead level design), and wasn't shy when he was confident something he was working on should be front and center and not buried in the level order.

[Lunick]

InnervateInna, on 18 November 2020 - 07:35 PM, said:

Ja, it puts a good bookend on the lingering plot holes.

I need MetHy to study Nuclear Winter now

[Jimmy]

InnervateInna, on 18 November 2020 - 07:35 PM, said:

However... he was also a build artiste and knew he was unique. So he made sure people knew when something could be better (his appropriate responsibility as effectively lead level design), and wasn't shy when he was confident something he was working on should be front and center and not buried in the level order.

This kind of explains DC for me then. It kind of blows it's wad immediately and fizzles out by the end.

[MetHy]

InnervateInna, on 18 November 2020 - 07:35 PM, said:

Ja, it puts a good bookend on the lingering plot holes.Obviously I can't speak for Bill and the full Q&A might give better insight into his perspective, but I didn't read the part quoted as particularly salty despite the disappointment. Just a frank recognition that what was released wasn't something he could for better and worse confidently say "That's my level". That doesn't necessarily mean he thinks poorly of Robert's changes. I wouldn't feel right being given 100% credit for Market Melee or Top Secret, especially from anyone who loved those levels. It's similar to what Bill said... there is a degree of disappointment in not being able to unambiguously assert they are "mine" good and bad. It's far more enjoyable to 100% own blistering criticism of your work than accept praise for something that has a blurred responsibility.

I know what you mean, there isn't one level in IF that I can call "100% mine", even if one of them might be 75-90%.

Quote

For me the high structure of the level has always screamed "Not Robert" but I can't put why down in meaningful ways. It was just missing something fundamental I always get out of Robert's spaces. I think both of you keyed in for good reason to some interesting tangible clues... but were downplaying DNA level clues that meant more to me (door/entryway patterns, the lack of secrets tagged, the PAL values).It's very context relevant.

I'm starting to see what you mean, and regarding the identity of the author of Xtreme DM map Library I'm starting to believe I was also wrong to attribute it to RT. The shape of the elevators in Library being square, vs the shape RT used for ALL his elevators starting from Beta One, is probably an even bigger give away than the fishtank palette; and while the map is excellent, it misses that "breathing room" for player movement, which to a lesser extent, is also missing in A Full House, which is part of RT's DNA level structures (and which does exist in his other DM levels like Anslem X, and even Mohave). I mean something like having at least one big area in the level (whether outdoor or indoor) where you can look at literal awe-some structures while having tons of space to run around to fight.
Library may be a dual credits however and RT could have done a polish pass before releasing the map for Xtreme.

As for Mystery Dino Cave from Route 66 I'm sill convinced it's 100% RT, I could post what I have to say about this map; but the absence of sig may indeed be a sign of dual credits. Perhaps the animal mortuary home was built by someone else.

Lunick, on 18 November 2020 - 07:55 PM, said:

I need MetHy to study Nuclear Winter now

Please no, it's literally painful for me to look at Nuclear Winter because all I see is missed opportunities, and short development time.

[Phredreeke]

Lunick, on 18 November 2020 - 07:55 PM, said:

I need MetHy to study Nuclear Winter now

What do we have from each mapper to compare to? I only know of one map by Krystian Palys and that's a shared map credit with three other people (Twin Dragon's Crazy Train)

[NNC]

Jimmy, on 18 November 2020 - 08:49 PM, said:

This kind of explains DC for me then. It kind of blows it's wad immediately and fizzles out by the end.

Actually most Travis maps work like this. You get into the action scene quickly, but it fizzles out by the end. He somewhat improved upon this, but it's plain annoying that the level lacks meaningful moments by the end. The first two DC maps are the best examples.

He is somewhat an inverse Levelord, who rarely cared about the eye candy, and focused on the rythm instead.

[BuckWiley]

Hey guys, this is Bill Buchalter. First, I want to thank @MetHy for reaching out to me and making me aware of this community. It has been a really great walk down memory lane re-living my old Sunstorm days. I have to say, I'm blown away that there are still people out there enjoying the levels I designed. For me, that's so rewarding. Anyway, I just wanted to drop in and say Hello and make myself available to answer any other questions you guys have. I know MetHy is putting together the info he asked me, so I don't want to steal a lot of his thunder. I really just wanted to say Thanks! for keeping our work out there and alive. That kicks so much ass!

[MetHy]

Great to have you here!

BuckWiley, on 19 November 2020 - 09:53 AM, said:

I know MetHy is putting together the info he asked me, so I don't want to steal a lot of his thunder.

Don't worry about me, feel free to post anything you want even if it doubles down with what you've already said to me! I'll try to find the time to go through everything and post it properly this week-end though.

[Phredreeke]

Hi Bill, do you know what other people worked on which maps for Route 66? We know about half of them based on map signatures

[BuckWiley]

Phredreeke, on 19 November 2020 - 11:28 AM, said:

Hi Bill, do you know what other people worked on which maps for Route 66? We know about half of them based on map signatures

Sadly I don't. After 25 years I've long since forgotten who did what on that project. I mostly only remember the guys and the maps I worked with directly.

[PokeThePower]

BuckWiley, on 19 November 2020 - 11:59 AM, said:

Sadly I don't. After 25 years I've long since forgotten who did what on that project. I mostly only remember the guys and the maps I worked with directly.

Heya Bill. Glad you got to discover the duke4 hideout for many dedicated fans of all the build engine work you were involved in. There are definitely people who would love to pick your brain of anything you remember and care to share of what your perspective was back then, especially since you got to touch three very different games... Duke, Blood, and Redneck Rampage. Since you were external to Sunstorm you also have perspectives that I likely never considered or heard and can expand/correct things I've mentioned in the past.

/salute!