[eGraphics]

Hey I'm just working on a full 3D map (polymar rendering only) and I've come across a glitch where I can't walk on the roof tops. I was wondering if someone might know how it could be done?

(Update.) June 30, 2007
I've added a copy of Polymer_Town_V0.21 ( Now with TROR ) and deleted the old one.

Attached thumbnail(s)

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Attached File(s)

•  Polymer_Town_V0.21.zip (65.54K)
  Number of downloads: 157

[Paul B]

 eGraphics, on 27 June 2017 - 04:19 PM, said:

Hey I'm just working on a full 3D map (polymar rendering only) and I've come across a glitch where I can't walk on the roof tops. I was wondering if someone might know how it could be done?

First off, let me just say that is one really impressive map only in the picture. Secondly, I'm not quite sure how you managed to pull that map off as there doesn't appear to be any TROR sectors and even without the TROR sectors the map actually isn't built properly just as a default map. There are sectors that are some how nested improperly. So you can't use Floor above floor like you are trying to do without some really nasty HOM effect.. Some how the roof sectors you've created aren't associated to the lower level sectors and what makes it more confusing the paralax ceiling effect hides much of the corruption that's going on.

It is a remarkably cool effect, but it isn't what you are shooting for. Also, I don't think you will be able to build a map that size with TROR as it would totally kill the framerate.

What you will need to do is try to extend the outside sectors around the house perimeter up into an extended sector then connect the extended sector to your roof sector. You should start with TROR on a smaller scale before mapping with the intentions of using it afterwards. TROR is something you need to have in mind right from the start. Adding it later can be tricky especially on an existing map which heavily uses SOS already and even the SOS isn't properly used... =(

[Kyanos]

 eGraphics, on 27 June 2017 - 04:19 PM, said:

Hey I'm just working on a full 3D map (polymar rendering only) and I've come across a glitch where I can't walk on the roof tops. I was wondering if someone might know how it could be done?

Have you tried blocking floor aligned sprites?

[Paul B]

Basically to do what you want, you need to remove the sections with the houses like I had to do in the map i've attached. Then you can extend the map upwards to create your layers you need. This is where planning ahead will help so you can get the look you are going for. I've attached a map to show you the effect you're trying to pull off and hopefully you can dissect it to see what i've done. Once you get the TROR space you will need to slope your perimeter sectors around your map so you can mask and hide the walls of the TROR extended sectors.. Good luck!

Attached File(s)

•  Polymer_Town_TROR.zip (29.67K)
  Number of downloads: 143

[eGraphics]

 Paul B, on 28 June 2017 - 11:16 AM, said:

First off, let me just say that is one really impressive map only in the picture. Secondly, I'm not quite sure how you managed to pull that map off as there doesn't appear to be any TROR sectors and even without the TROR sectors the map actually isn't built properly just as a default map. There are sectors that are some how nested improperly. So you can't use Floor above floor like you are trying to do without some really nasty HOM effect.. Some how the roof sectors you've created aren't associated to the lower level sectors and what makes it more confusing the paralax ceiling effect hides much of the corruption that's going on.

It is a remarkably cool effect, but it isn't what you are shooting for. Also, I don't think you will be able to build a map that size with TROR as it would totally kill the framerate.

What you will need to do is try to extend the outside sectors around the house perimeter up into an extended sector then connect the extended sector to your roof sector. You should start with TROR on a smaller scale before mapping with the intentions of using it afterwards. TROR is something you need to have in mind right from the start. Adding it later can be tricky especially on an existing map which heavily uses SOS already and even the SOS isn't properly used... =(

Thank you for replying. Yeah my plan is to create a huge map that is easy on frame-rate. I'm not even sure what TROR is. What I did was just create over lapping sectors. Because it seems like a new idea. I'm going to call it ; Sector Over Lapping or S.O.L for short. Because I have a sense of humor and this is Duke3d... I could teach you SOL if you're willing to teach me TROR or perhaps we could build one map together?

Sounds like you know what you're talking about. Perhaps there is a way to reduce the frame-rate loss by using SOL where possible?

I think what I need to do is learn how to TROR. Just so you know. I have all the map parts that created the SOL effect. Here's a copy of the map. What I do is create the buildings then add them in later.

Attached File(s)

•  Map_Parts.zip (58.17K)
  Number of downloads: 149

[eGraphics]

 Drek, on 28 June 2017 - 02:55 PM, said:

Have you tried blocking floor aligned sprites?

Not to sure what you mean. I'm kind of a noob at this (Even though I've been mapping for years.). I mean, I can build the maps but I don't even know what the number tag is for an under water sector.

[eGraphics]

 Paul B, on 28 June 2017 - 03:55 PM, said:

Basically to do what you want, you need to remove the sections with the houses like I had to do in the map i've attached. Then you can extend the map upwards to create your layers you need. This is where planning ahead will help so you can get the look you are going for. I've attached a map to show you the effect you're trying to pull off and hopefully you can dissect it to see what i've done. Once you get the TROR space you will need to slope your perimeter sectors around your map so you can mask and hide the walls of the TROR extended sectors.. Good luck!

I think what you are able to do is vary impressive. Could you create a few buildings like this or figure out a simple way of teaching me this? So I can copy and paste them into a map. They would have to fit within the sloped sectors.

Here's a copy of the map without any of the buildings in it. I'll try to match your TROR building's height with my SOL house effect.

Attached File(s)

•  Start_Map.zip (25.36K)
  Number of downloads: 141

[Paul B]

 eGraphics, on 28 June 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

I think what you are able to do is vary impressive. Could you create a few buildings like this or figure out a simple way of teaching me this? So I can copy and paste them into a map. They would have to fit within the sloped sectors.

Here's a copy of the map without any of the buildings in it. I'll try to match your TROR building's height with my SOL house effect.

Here is the problem with your current mapping style. While it is impressive that you can over lap sectors really well. The engine wasn't really designed for that type of over lap to the extend that you are doing. It will cause problems even in Polymer. Also when you over lap sectors like that it makes editing those sectors very difficult because you can't isolate the layers. Using TROR you can change the focus of each level where it will grey out the level above or below depending on what you set your Z-axis to. What you need to do is read up on a tutorial and follow the example TROR that are out there. Helix made some example maps to explain how it works and what the shortcut keys are for enabling this feature. It is really useful and its the only way I map now. When I find these documents I will post links to them here. At the moment i don't have time to play around in the editor tonight but I am more then happy to assist you with using the features.

Here are some links I found:

https://forums.duke4...room-over-room/

http://wiki.eduke32....m_Mapping_Guide

Also in your Eduke32 install folder there should be a folder called Samples. Under that folder there is the TROR example map called: trueror1.map take a look at that map to see how the sectors are extended.

[eGraphics]

 Paul B, on 28 June 2017 - 07:48 PM, said:

Here is the problem with your current mapping style. While it is impressive that you can over lap sectors really well. The engine wasn't really designed for that type of over lap to the extend that you are doing. It will cause problems even in Polymer. Also when you over lap sectors like that it makes editing those sectors very difficult because you can't isolate the layers. Using TROR you can change the focus of each level where it will grey out the level above or below depending on what you set your Z-axis to. What you need to do is read up on a tutorial and follow the example TROR that are out there. Helix made some example maps to explain how it works and what the shortcut keys are for enabling this feature. It is really useful and its the only way I map now. When I find these documents I will post links to them here. At the moment i don't have time to play around in the editor tonight but I am more then happy to assist you with using the features.

Here are some links I found:

https://forums.duke4...room-over-room/

http://wiki.eduke32....m_Mapping_Guide

Also in your Eduke32 install folder there should be a folder called Samples. Under that folder there is the TROR example map called: trueror1.map take a look at that map to see how the sectors are extended.

I know how to avoid the glitches and even fix them (when it happens.). I have a good understanding of SOL. It's TROR that confuses me. Because of that, I'm going to read up on everything you send me. Like you I don't have to much time tonight. So I might be getting back to you in a few days.

Thank you for all your help.

[eGraphics]

PS : I've learned everything I can about TROR and added the map into the post.

[Paul B]

 eGraphics, on 30 June 2017 - 03:26 PM, said:

PS : I've learned everything I can about TROR and added the map into the post.

Umm... you can't be serious there is absolutely 0 TROR sectors in that map. What you have done is added sprite floors to split the upper and the lower floors but that isn't TROR.... I'm confused...??? What am I missing?

[High Treason]

I'd guess he's using sector inversion as with very early Polymer maps (including my rather horrible entry from many years ago - seriously, don't play it) whereby turning a sector inside out yields a non-solid sector, one which seems to float. Unfortunately I can't really test it with this machine.

I doubt anyone really uses this anymore and it would be best left to unreachable decorations at best. Still, I love the look of this map and hope it survives the switch to TROR.

[eGraphics]

 Paul B, on 30 June 2017 - 06:13 PM, said:

Umm... you can't be serious there is absolutely 0 TROR sectors in that map. What you have done is added sprite floors to split the upper and the lower floors but that isn't TROR.... I'm confused...??? What am I missing?

Wait so I'm still SOL? I thought I was doing true room over room. I would highlight the sector and press Ctrl E. Create a sector under the sector and add in the rooms under the roof. I posted a copy of the > new < map at the top of the post. Ploymer_Town_V021.map. Are you sure we're looking at the same map? Because I also kept the old map on there too.

PS : Here's a copy of the progress I've made. Perhaps there is a miss understanding on the meaning behind TROR. But I did read all the post you've sent me.

Attached File(s)

•  Polymer_Town_V0.22.zip (66.72K)
  Number of downloads: 138

[eGraphics]

 High Treason, on 30 June 2017 - 06:37 PM, said:

I'd guess he's using sector inversion as with very early Polymer maps (including my rather horrible entry from many years ago - seriously, don't play it) whereby turning a sector inside out yields a non-solid sector, one which seems to float. Unfortunately I can't really test it with this machine.

I doubt anyone really uses this anymore and it would be best left to unreachable decorations at best. Still, I love the look of this map and hope it survives the switch to TROR.

Did you look at the old map or the new one? Because the new one has the ability to go on the roofs. If that is what TROR does? After all this could be a misunderstanding.

Here's a photo of me on one of the roofs.

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[Paul B]

 eGraphics, on 30 June 2017 - 07:58 PM, said:

Did you look at the old map or the new one? Because the new one has the ability to go on the roofs. If that is what TROR does? After all this could be a misunderstanding.

Here's a photo of me on one of the roofs.

Very cool! You definitely have a very unique way of mapping and it works! I can't wait to see the finished product. I would also like to host your map as well, so let me know when you've completed your map! =)

[eGraphics]

 Paul B, on 01 July 2017 - 08:49 AM, said:

Very cool! You definitely have a very unique way of mapping and it works! I can't wait to see the finished product. I would also like to host your map as well, so let me know when you've completed your map! =)

Thank you. I did find a few glitches though. But nothing I can't find a work around with. Id say the map is about 10% done. So we could be looking at months of work. I hope that's not going to be a issue? Because id love for you to host my map.

[Paul B]

 eGraphics, on 02 July 2017 - 09:55 PM, said:

Thank you. I did find a few glitches though. But nothing I can't find a work around with. Id say the map is about 10% done. So we could be looking at months of work. I hope that's not going to be a issue? Because id love for you to host my map.

No worries, good things take time! I'm looking forward to seeing your finished product when its done! No rush!

[Micky C]

I've had a quick look at the map. I'm not sure if it's changed much since the original post, but all he seems to have done is used TROR scissoring, the technique I invented ~6 years ago in Parkade.map. That's what I originally suspected from the screenshots. Was that not the case before? IIRC you couldn't make full-blown interiors with sector inversion, let alone enter them.

The other thing he's done is make the TROR sectors parallaxed, and as a result they don't seem to show their texture in invisible mode in polymer, so perhaps that why people thought there was no TROR? Making the sectors parallaxed is something we've employed in the AMC TC, which makes TROR play slightly nicer under certain circumstances in the classic renderer, but it shouldn't make any difference in polymer. Of course, I remember the devs giving a vague warning against it, so it's possible there may be some negative consequences now or down the line. Haven't come across any so far.

Here's the wiki page on TROR if you haven't seen it already: http://wiki.eduke32....m_Mapping_Guide
Having a quick look, I'm surprised I didn't put TROR scissoring on there. I think my thought processes at the time were about trying to maximize compatibility with the software renderer, which doesn't play nice with scissoring at all.

[Mark]

I have used scissoring in all 3 of my projects to "carve" into solid non-player spaces and make them usable. It comes in handy when you didn't plan ahead of time for proper TROR.

[Paul B]

 Mark., on 03 July 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

I have used scissoring in all 3 of my projects to "carve" into solid non-player spaces and make them usable. It comes in handy when you didn't plan ahead of time for proper TROR.

Yea i'd discourage anyone against using TROR scissoring if possible. It comes with its own share of problems. Unless you're just trying to add eye candy to a map that isn't going to be used for player or AI space. We had that problem in Parkade around the walkways between buildings. While it served its purpose it wasn't an ideal method but more of a patch job to fit into an existing area. Don't get me wrong the idea was brilliant, but with proper planning we could have implemented a better fit.

Anyway, I like eGraphics vision when it comes to mapping. He knows what he wants and he gets the job done. He picked up TROR incredibly fast and I can see a lot of potential coming this way. He definitely has an architects hand and a keen eye.

[Mark]

I used it for creating new player spaces. I don't know if you played Decay. The multi-level home/taxi garage at the player start was all inside a scissored into solid block. The main problem with scissoring is that enemies almost always do not cross over the scissoring. It also randomly made it tough to add sectors in SOS. Mapster would lose focus on which layer you wanted to add to. But you are correct, proper TROR use is prefered over scissoring.

[eGraphics]

 Micky C, on 03 July 2017 - 04:06 PM, said:

I've had a quick look at the map. I'm not sure if it's changed much since the original post, but all he seems to have done is used TROR scissoring, the technique I invented ~6 years ago in Parkade.map. That's what I originally suspected from the screenshots. Was that not the case before? IIRC you couldn't make full-blown interiors with sector inversion, let alone enter them.

The other thing he's done is make the TROR sectors parallaxed, and as a result they don't seem to show their texture in invisible mode in polymer, so perhaps that why people thought there was no TROR? Making the sectors parallaxed is something we've employed in the AMC TC, which makes TROR play slightly nicer under certain circumstances in the classic renderer, but it shouldn't make any difference in polymer. Of course, I remember the devs giving a vague warning against it, so it's possible there may be some negative consequences now or down the line. Haven't come across any so far.

Here's the wiki page on TROR if you haven't seen it already: http://wiki.eduke32....m_Mapping_Guide
Having a quick look, I'm surprised I didn't put TROR scissoring on there. I think my thought processes at the time were about trying to maximize compatibility with the software renderer, which doesn't play nice with scissoring at all.

I would love to check out your map. Perhaps it'll give me more ideas.

[eGraphics]

 Paul B, on 03 July 2017 - 08:37 PM, said:

Yea i'd discourage anyone against using TROR scissoring if possible. It comes with its own share of problems. Unless you're just trying to add eye candy to a map that isn't going to be used for player or AI space. We had that problem in Parkade around the walkways between buildings. While it served its purpose it wasn't an ideal method but more of a patch job to fit into an existing area. Don't get me wrong the idea was brilliant, but with proper planning we could have implemented a better fit.

Anyway, I like eGraphics vision when it comes to mapping. He knows what he wants and he gets the job done. He picked up TROR incredibly fast and I can see a lot of potential coming this way. He definitely has an architects hand and a keen eye.

Thank you for your support. I'll keep you posted on all the work I'm doing. So far I've been testing out TROR and seeing what I could do with it. I'm slowly adding more and more buildings into the map.

PS : Here's an update on the map.

Attached File(s)

•  Polymer_Town_V0.30.zip (69.56K)
  Number of downloads: 149
•  Polymer_Town_V0.32.zip (69.67K)
  Number of downloads: 134

[eGraphics]

 Mark., on 04 July 2017 - 03:14 AM, said:

I used it for creating new player spaces. I don't know if you played Decay. The multi-level home/taxi garage at the player start was all inside a scissored into solid block. The main problem with scissoring is that enemies almost always do not cross over the scissoring. It also randomly made it tough to add sectors in SOS. Mapster would lose focus on which layer you wanted to add to. But you are correct, proper TROR use is prefered over scissoring.

Feel free to post the map here so I can check it out.

[Mark]

Its part of a project with all custom content. The map won't display properly in regular mapster and textures.

[eGraphics]

 Mark., on 06 July 2017 - 08:30 AM, said:

Its part of a project with all custom content. The map won't display properly in regular mapster and textures.

I understand.