[Hendricks266]

icecoldduke, on 15 July 2017 - 02:01 PM, said:

You are very bad a motivating people to do work for you Evan . Saying I should do something that will be "quickly forgotten" is frankly a terrible thing to say. Regardless, IQM support is not in your depot. I'm going to add assimp support to my depot, and if you get IQM support in, I'll consider doing the tool, but this is the best way forward for my mod.

Just like before, it's pretty clear that this work is only to appease the Cataclysm/HHR guys. Write your quick and dirty tool once because they are the only ones begging for FBX.

Mark., on 15 July 2017 - 03:02 PM, said:

Well if a staple of the communities and games like md3 has gotten left behind and now glitches in importers and exporters of major programs, whats to stop the same broken support for the lesser known IQM from happening as new versions of those major programs are released? No format is safe. We have no guarantees of third party people keeping the importers and exporters up to date.

IQM is only lesser-known to you HHR guys because none of you are in the source-port loop. "The industry coddles me by dumping money into making and matching a moving target" isn't going to fly.

[Mark]

Maybe I need to find a newer list of games that support IQM. I found a list of maybe 15 games, only 2 I recognized.

[Danukem]

Hendricks266, on 15 July 2017 - 01:01 PM, said:

[bandwagon fallacy intensifies]

I'm not taking a position on the model format question, but as someone who used to teach logic and critical thinking courses, I'm here to tell you that your claims of people committing the bandwagon/popularity fallacy are misplaced. There are some contexts in which popularity is a very relevant consideration, and adoption of model format is arguably one of them. It's much like the question of which human language a person should try to learn if they are in a new culture. If 99% of the people around you speak a certain language, then you have a very good reason to learn it. Model formats aren't quite like that, but clearly the fact that a format is popular in the industry is at least a relevant consideration.

Arguing that one should believe that a certain proposition is true merely because the majority believe it to be true is indeed a fallacy. But I wonder if you are correctly identifying the proposition in question. Recognize that the following are two different propositions, which could have different truth values: (A) FBX is the best model format from a technical standpoint, and ( B ) FBX is the model format that it makes the most sense to adopt. The popularity of the format does not support (A). If people were saying that it's the best format form a technical standpoint simply because it is popular, then that would be fallacious. However, the popularity of the format does support ( B ), and I think that's what's more relevant here, since the argument is about which format to adopt.

[Hendricks266]

Trooper Dan, on 15 July 2017 - 03:27 PM, said:

Recognize that the following are two different propositions, which could have different truth values: (A) FBX is the best model format from a technical standpoint, and ( B ) FBX is the model format that it makes the most sense to adopt.

I understand this. I'm saying that B is false if A is false. I'm also saying that the concerns over IQM are completely unfounded. The Blender exporter for IQM works great. Finally, I'm saying that FBX's undeserved status as "industry-standard" is not grounds for it trumping IQM.

[Hank]

Mark., on 15 July 2017 - 03:27 PM, said:

Maybe I need to find a newer list of games that support IQM. I found a list of maybe 15 games, only 2 I recognized.

icecoldduke wrote that he is willing to implement assimp, so anything I know of would work with it.
As for EDuke32 and IQM, Blender does have an up-to-date exporter, and EDuke32 will keep its support for md3.
Looks to me, win-win for 99.99% of the members here.

[Danukem]

Hendricks266, on 15 July 2017 - 03:39 PM, said:

I understand this. I'm saying that B depends on A being true, and B is false if A is false. I'm also saying that the concerns over IQM are completely unfounded. The Blender exporter for IQM works great. Finally, I'm saying that FBX's undeserved status as "industry-standard" is not grounds for it trumping IQM.

Maybe IQM is the best format for EDuke32. I don't know enough to have an opinion. All I'm saying is that when someone brings up the advantages of adopting an industry standard format, that's not grounds for accusing them of committing a fallacy.

[leilei]

If you wanted "industry standard", you wouldn't be using a hobbyist engine project based on BUILD in the first place.

I can see Scaleform and Wwise weaseled for at this rate.

[icecoldduke]

leilei, on 15 July 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

If you wanted "industry standard", you wouldn't be using a hobbyist engine project based on BUILD in the first place.

If I'm adding industry standard features that makes things easier on hobbyist, then whats the issue?

leilei, on 15 July 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

I can see Scaleform and Wwise weaseled for at this rate.

I hate scaleform .

[Tea Monster]

Hendricks266, on 15 July 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

Just like before, it's pretty clear that this work is only to appease the Cataclysm/HHR guys. Write your quick and dirty tool once because they are the only ones begging for FBX.

I'm not begging, I'm trying to convince you using logic. It isn't working.
Would you like to explain why listening to the only people left making mesh based mods for EDuke is a bad thing? Why it is viewed as 'appeasement'? I want you to explain this. I find this attitude you are displaying to be very interesting.

Hendricks266, on 15 July 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

IQM is only lesser-known to you HHR guys because none of you are in the source-port loop. "The industry coddles me by dumping money into making and matching a moving target" isn't going to fly.

Sorry matey, but you are completely wrong there.



http://quakeone.com/...del-replacement

http://severancemod.blogspot.co.uk/

http://www.moddb.com/mods/severance



Oh, and the Doomsday port uses assimp and they don't have any issues with open source code.

[leilei]

Nice static objects and "next gen HD" vert-. I'm certain that means IQM is shit or something as if it's implying it can't use a normal+spec map like the engines it supported with almost a decade back....

[TerminX]

icecoldduke, on 15 July 2017 - 02:01 PM, said:

You are very bad a motivating people to do work for you Evan . Saying I should do something that will be "quickly forgotten" is frankly a terrible thing to say. Regardless, IQM support is not in your depot. I'm going to add assimp support to my depot, and if you get IQM support in, I'll consider doing the tool, but this is the best way forward for my mod.

I apologize for my friend, he's grumpy! I support your efforts more than he does, but I still think you should do it our way, for everyone's benefit (not just your own). Regardless of how well any exporter may or may not work, it's hard to argue with the fact that IQM is designed with data structures that are very efficient for the purposes of loading and rendering the data.

How large is a compiled version of assimp with only support for the couple of formats we're interested in? What do the data structures assimp returns look like? These are important questions.

[Mark]

I'll see if TM can get his buddy from Doomsday to shine some light on implementing Assimp.

[icecoldduke]

TerminX, on 15 July 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

I apologize for my friend, he's grumpy!

I shouldn't have gotten angry at his comment. Sorry for being bitchy .

TerminX, on 15 July 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

I support your efforts more than he does, but I still think you should do it our way, for everyone's benefit (not just your own). Regardless of how well any exporter may or may not work, it's hard to argue with the fact that IQM is designed with data structures that are very efficient for the purposes of loading and rendering the data.

How large is a compiled version of assimp with only support for the couple of formats we're interested in? What do the data structures assimp returns look like? These are important questions.

What's your guys's ETA on getting IQM support into the engine?

[Hendricks266]

TerminX, on 15 July 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

How large is a compiled version of assimp with only support for the couple of formats we're interested in? What do the data structures assimp returns look like? These are important questions.

Assimp does not support IQM and MD2/MD3 support is half-baked, not supporting vertex animations. That makes the list empty.

[Mark]

I recall ICD saying existing md3 support could be kept.

[Jimmy]

>why don't you just focus on making a functional, stable Shadow Warrior port since one doesn't fucking exist?

[Hendricks266]

Jimmy, on 15 July 2017 - 07:52 PM, said:

>why don't you just focus on making a functional, stable Shadow Warrior port since one doesn't fucking exist?

That's my job.

[Hendricks266]

Tea Monster, on 14 July 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

the Doomsday Doom source port (that gives FBX and even Blender support). It is in itself open source and is 'mod proven'.

>Doomsday
>mod proven

I give you 3.5 Costanzas out of 5.

[TheZombieKiller]

Doomsday is very much a "I can install my fancy and totally not out-of-place HD model packs and 4K photorealistic textures in my Doom!" port, much like Risen3D and all of the others. Sure, it has a scripting language and all, but I've seen very little advanced mods actually made for it.

So yeah, I'd hardly consider it mod "proven".

[Tea Monster]

When the Doomsday guys decided to upgrade their renderer, they reached out to the modellers in the community and got them on board with helping to develop the new renderer. Coders and modellers actually talked to one another with respect and we got a lot done.

Now compare that to this:

Hendricks266, on 15 July 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

Just like before, it's pretty clear that this work is only to appease the Cataclysm/HHR guys. Write your quick and dirty tool once because they are the only ones begging for FBX.

and:

Hendricks266, on 15 July 2017 - 08:49 PM, said:

>Doomsday
>mod proven

I give you 3.5 Costanzas out of 5.

Hendricks, you still didn't answer my question. Not directly anyway. I get the idea from the replies above.

[Hendricks266]

Having that level of discussion where such 3D artist demands are actually met would require a myopia for every other support concern a source port has to its users. Hence Doomsday's reputation.

[Tea Monster]

We didn't demand anything. We actually talked to each other and worked things out together.

Still no answer.

[Hendricks266]

Tea Monster, on 16 July 2017 - 12:32 AM, said:

We didn't demand anything. We actually talked to each other and worked things out together.

Therefore, Doomsday will remain known as the port that can do shiny and nothing else.

Tea Monster, on 15 July 2017 - 04:50 PM, said:

Would you like to explain why listening to the only people left making mesh based mods for EDuke is a bad thing? Why it is viewed as 'appeasement'? I want you to explain this. I find this attitude you are displaying to be very interesting.

Your professional opinions cannot account for the full range of considerations that must be made when making this decision. I understand that you would prefer the complete ease of using FBX, but I maintain that if IQM's tools are broken, that's reason to fix the tools, not to abandon the format, and as mentioned Blender supports exporting IQM with no issue. However you have shown that you would prefer a developer to do exactly as you say. Such a thing threatens the ecosystem.

The idea to support FBX is Wrong, and it remains Wrong no matter how many multibillion-dollar corporations pump money into supporting this trainwreck.

[Mblackwell]

This is going down the rabbit hole here a bit, but:

What FBX would provide that IQM (or another format) doesn't feature-wise if anything and what would the technical cost would be to supporting FBX over another format for the sake of those features (over another more open/standardized format)? Especially given that we would end up using another format internally in the FBX case. And I'm not talking about importers and exporters here but literally things like, "This format doesn't support smoothing groups."

The only reasons I can see to even try and push for it is that.

[icecoldduke]

Jimmy, on 15 July 2017 - 07:52 PM, said:

>why don't you just focus on making a functional, stable Shadow Warrior port since one doesn't fucking exist?

I do need to fix the drawmirror issue since that causes a non prog in the first level in Polymer. Full mouse support is also needed. I also need to re-write the sw sound system since that's still causing a couple random crashes that are caused by some race conditions. After that, I have no known issues that break playability.

Mblackwell, on 16 July 2017 - 06:07 AM, said:

What FBX would provide that IQM (or another format) doesn't feature-wise if anything and what would the technical cost would be to supporting FBX over another format for the sake of those features (over another more open/standardized format)? Especially given that we would end up using another format internally in the FBX case. And I'm not talking about importers and exporters here but literally things like, "This format doesn't support smoothing groups."

I'm not sure if I get your point, but FBX does support smoothing groups.

[Mark]

I haven't heard anything negative technically about either format yet. Opposition from one side seems to be coming from concerns about present and continued import/export support in their asset creation programs for what they percieve as a lesser known and used IQM format.

The other side thinks IQM is a widely known and used format with an easier to use and maintain system to patch to eduke.

Seems like an impasse. Each side is perceiving differently.

[Mblackwell]

icecoldduke, on 16 July 2017 - 06:30 AM, said:

I do need to fix the drawmirror issue since that causes a non prog in the first level in Polymer. Full mouse support is also needed. I also need to re-write the sw sound system since that's still causing a couple random crashes that are caused by some race conditions. After that, I have no known issues that break playability.


I'm not sure if I get your point, but FBX does support smoothing groups.

That was just an example of a potential technical failing (missing feature) of one format or another. Which is the question there.

[icecoldduke]

Tea Monster, on 15 July 2017 - 11:49 PM, said:

When the Doomsday guys decided to upgrade their renderer, they reached out to the modellers in the community and got them on board with helping to develop the new renderer. Coders and modellers actually talked to one another with respect and we got a lot done.

I agree, whatever system is choosen at the end of the day, should be discussed with the content creators we have here; not just between engineers.

Mblackwell, on 16 July 2017 - 06:35 AM, said:

That was just an example of a potential technical failing (missing feature) of one format or another. Which is the question there.

Gotcha. I just don't want some people on here to get the misconception that FBX doesn't support smoothing groups .

Hendricks266, on 15 July 2017 - 08:02 PM, said:

That's my job.

Were on the same team, trying to accomplish the same goals :/.

[Mark]

This is a noobish statement because I know nothing of the coding involved in patching in IQM for eduke32. But if it was say a one week project, with a coding marathon on the weekend, Install the support. During that week of coding, asset makers use whatever IQM importers and exporters, if they exist, and see what comes out of it.

I know, its easy for me to say because I don't have to do anything. Just throwing the idea out there. If I am vastly underestimating the time involved then never mind.

[icecoldduke]

In the branch I fixed the key assign screens. Mouse buttons can now be reassigned, and so can keyboard keys(haven't tried joystick). There is currently a bug where mouse key reassignment doesn't get saved on restart, fixing that now.