[Mblackwell]

Isn't the one for Blender quite simple and effective?

Importing though, not so sure.

[icecoldduke]

Mblackwell, on 13 July 2017 - 07:12 PM, said:

Isn't the one for Blender quite simple and effective?

Importing though, not so sure.

I personally don't like blender. Even if the Blender plugin worked perfectly, it seems silly to force people to use a piece of software they don't like. Having proper FBX support means everyone can export there content to the game.

[Hank]

icecoldduke, on 13 July 2017 - 07:25 PM, said:

I personally don't like blender. Even if the Blender plugin worked perfectly, it seems silly to force people to use a piece of software they don't like. Having proper FBX support means everyone can export there content to the game.

I love Blender.
To impress people I bought Cinema 4D and then later Maya. Now, that I will never do models for cash, I let the license of Maya expire. Except the for renderer, Blender does everything the other commercial products do, and has a better (flexible) work flow + you can choose how much you want to donate. The only reason to learn/use Maya or 3D Max is, if you plan to get a job in the movies or gaming industry.

To get back on topic, I'd love to be able to export as FBX also. Still, FBX's drawback is that AutoDesk is changing FBX once a year or so. Thus exporting straight from a given Autodesk Software may hold hidden catches, in a view years from now. My preference would be Collada, but I don't do the coding.

@ Mblackwell - looks like it, so the EDuke32 team may have a winner also.

[Mblackwell]

icecoldduke, on 13 July 2017 - 07:25 PM, said:

I personally don't like blender. Even if the Blender plugin worked perfectly, it seems silly to force people to use a piece of software they don't like. Having proper FBX support means everyone can export there content to the game.

Exporting FBX is kind of messy. Also, a lot of folks here use Blender since it's powerful and free.

[TerminX]

Hank, on 13 July 2017 - 07:41 PM, said:

The only reason to learn/use Maya or 3D Max is, if you plan to get a job in the movies or gaming industry.

Not likely to be very many people using expensive commercial software to make models for a 20 year old game, either. Game mod communities are all about Blender.

[icecoldduke]

TerminX, on 13 July 2017 - 07:53 PM, said:

Not likely to be very many people using expensive commercial software to make models for a 20 year old game, either. Game mod communities are all about Blender.

You cast a wider net of potential talent by not alienating potential modders...someone once told me that : ).

[TerminX]

Yep, and that's why forcing them to use Autodesk's proprietary model format when 99.999% of them will never own a license to an Autodesk product is a bad thing.

[icecoldduke]

TerminX, on 13 July 2017 - 08:08 PM, said:

Yep, and that's why forcing them to use Autodesk's proprietary model format when 99.999% of them will never own a license to an Autodesk product is a bad thing.

There are FBX exporters for Blender....

[icecoldduke]

Ninjakitty, on 13 July 2017 - 08:59 AM, said:

Hm...

1>------ Build started: Project: ShadowWarrior, Configuration: Release x64 ------
1>C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio\2017\Community\Common7\IDE\VC\VCTargets\ Platforms\x64\PlatformToolsets\v141\Toolset.targets(36,5): error MSB8036: The Windows SDK version 8.1 was not found. Install the required version of Windows SDK or change the SDK version in the project property pages or by right-clicking the solution and selecting "Retarget solution".
1>Done building project "ShadowWarrior.vcxproj" -- FAILED.
========== Build: 0 succeeded, 1 failed, 0 up-to-date, 0 skipped ==========

So now I need to download another software development kit to build?

*EDIT: I installed SDK version 8.1, and now it just throws a bunch of "fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'corecrt.h': No such file or directory" type stuff at me

I have resynced my depot and recompiled the exe, and everything was able to compile and run just fine. It has to be a config error on your end.

[TerminX]

Btw, how long do you think your clean room re-implementation of FBX from scratch will take, being that the FBX SDK's license isn't compatible with the GPL?

[icecoldduke]

TerminX, on 13 July 2017 - 08:20 PM, said:

Btw, how long do you think your clean room re-implementation of FBX from scratch will take, being that the FBX SDK's license isn't compatible with the GPL?

If you make a separate exe that converts the fbx into a custom format that the engine can use, the license issues are not relevant . It took me a couple weeks before.

[Ninjakitty]

icecoldduke, on 13 July 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

I have resynced my depot and recompiled the exe, and everything was able to compile and run just fine. It has to be a config error on your end.

Well, I haven't changed any configurations. Which configurations are you talking about?

[Ninjakitty]

Ninjakitty, on 13 July 2017 - 08:38 PM, said:

Well, I haven't changed any configurations. Which configurations are you talking about?

I looked around a little until I found this:
 Capture12.PNG (55.25K)
Number of downloads: 5
Actually, I think the problem is that I DIDN'T change the configuration, so that it would still try to compile in 10, instead of 8.1

[Ninjakitty]

Ninjakitty, on 13 July 2017 - 08:42 PM, said:

I looked around a little until I found this:
Capture12.PNG
Actually, I think the problem is that I DIDN'T change the configuration, so that it would still try to compile in 10, instead of 8.1

Nope! NVM, I changed it to 8.1, and I got the same errors and fail to build

I still just get stuff like this:

1>C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio\2017\Community\VC\Tools\MSVC\14.10.25017\ include\crtdefs.h(10): fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'corecrt.h': No such file or directory
1>Direct3D11_RHI_OcclusionQuery.cpp
1>C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio\2017\Community\VC\Tools\MSVC\14.10.25017\ include\crtdefs.h(10): fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'corecrt.h': No such file or directory
1>Direct3D11_RHI_PerfCounter.cpp
1>C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio\2017\Community\VC\Tools\MSVC\14.10.25017\ include\crtdefs.h(10): fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'corecrt.h': No such file or directory
1>Direct3D11_RHI_RenderTarget.cpp
1>C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio\2017\Community\VC\Tools\MSVC\14.10.25017\ include\crtdefs.h(10): fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'corecrt.h': No such file or directory
1>Direct3D11_RHI_Shader.cpp
1>C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio\2017\Community\VC\Tools\MSVC\14.10.25017\ include\crtdefs.h(10): fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'corecrt.h': No such file or directory
1>Done building project "ShadowWarrior.vcxproj" -- FAILED.
========== Build: 0 succeeded, 1 failed, 0 up-to-date, 0 skipped ==========

(I'm pretty sure this means Visual Studio was installed incorrectly or something)

[Hank]

icecoldduke, on 13 July 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

You cast a wider net of potential talent by not alienating potential modders...someone once told me that : ).

Blender can do a city like this in 45 sec. . (Yes, the renderer sucks)

Spoiler

Please don't tell an old fart like me, a classic Autodesk sales pitch. Colleges are being bombarded by a relentless add campaign from Autodesk. The young one's learn Autodesk stuff for free and then are the slaves of this firm for life. (I can tell you my personal history for the last 28.75 years, if you have the time)

As for your port, I'm looking forward to anything you are willing to do. I hate to take sides, but in this case, TerminX has a point, FBX has a limited clientel. (Collada is wider) and with IQM, I have had negative experience, but hey, it's been years. So if Blender fixed up the exporter, then it is fixed.

[Ninjakitty]

Hank, on 13 July 2017 - 08:59 PM, said:

Blender can do a city like this in 45 sec. . (Yes, the renderer sucks)

I like that city :3
Reminds me of Gmod's BigCity map

[Mblackwell]

icecoldduke, on 13 July 2017 - 08:22 PM, said:

If you make a separate exe that converts the fbx into a custom format that the engine can use, the license issues are not relevant . It took me a couple weeks before.

So a separate binary that you would make sure was compatible with every platform EDuke32 runs on, right?

And also now you've increased the steps to get a model into the game. So we go from Blender to FBX, and then from the FBX to your application, which then gets it into EDuke32 finally assuming what comes out the other end is predictable for creating proper DEFs. The other question is if there's always going to be an application of some kind available during each intermediate step for the user to make sure that this all went off without a hitch?

[Tea Monster]

icecoldduke, on 13 July 2017 - 11:21 AM, said:

Yeah. One of the problems I had was the exporter didn't even export geometry until I did a huge amount of fiddly fucking with the model itself and with how I exported the model.

Quoting for Truth.

Blender's FBX importer can have problems, but it's exporter will send stuff to both Unity and Unreal nicely. That is what the industry uses. "FBX has a limited clientele" - I don't know where you heard that, but it's not true. The nice thing about FBX is that because everyone uses it, including the big players, is that there are loads of tools out there to work with FBX just because everyone on different platforms wants to get models into Unity and Unreal. If you want to attract modelers you have to provide a solution for modelers, not a solution for programmers. Otherwise you get the situation we are in now where everyone who knows anything about any of this stuff has gone forth and procreated.

I'm not advocating ptex. I know some people are suggesting it as a game solution, but UVs are standard. What I was trying to get across to Ninjakitty was that there are lots of different ways of modelling. Some of those methods just are not going to be easily translatable into a game model. Particle hair for instance. You are going to have to replace that with either alpha planes or a sculpted hair piece. Again, because of the state of the community (which is rapidly getting worse, not better), nobody knows anything about what this stuff is, what you need to get it into a game, or the ability to fix it if it isn't.

[icecoldduke]

Tea Monster, on 13 July 2017 - 11:44 PM, said:

Blender's FBX importer can have problems, but it's exporter will send stuff to both Unity and Unreal nicely.

Exactly. FBX has a flushed out toolset for pretty much every model program out there. There is no reason not to use it.

Quote

So a separate binary that you would make sure was compatible with every platform EDuke32 runs on, right?

Windows and Linux, it would be silly to have a model exporter for android . Android should only load the converted files.

[Tea Monster]

Except Misfit 3D (jk).

[Mark]

Go ahead, rub my nose in it. But..I have seen at least 3 or 4 people in these forums that would probably have the knowledge to add FBX support for it.

[Mblackwell]

icecoldduke, on 14 July 2017 - 04:21 AM, said:

Windows and Linux, it would be silly to have a model exporter for android . Android should only load the converted files.

Also MacOS. And you ignored the rest if the statement/question. Yes I noticed .

[icecoldduke]

Mblackwell, on 13 July 2017 - 09:23 PM, said:

And also now you've increased the steps to get a model into the game. So we go from Blender to FBX, and then from the FBX to your application, which then gets it into EDuke32 finally assuming what comes out the other end is predictable for creating proper DEFs. The other question is if there's always going to be an application of some kind available during each intermediate step for the user to make sure that this all went off without a hitch?

I read your post fast and didn't see the last part. One could also have eduke32 manually execute the model converter exe when it detects the assets are out of date, this still gets past the licensing issues. All engines do this kind of thing behind the scenes, and the tools have to make sure the end result is predictable.

The converter just writes out the data required for rendering. Here is a example. If you have a FBX without skeleton(so basically a static mesh), you only have to write out the geometry and material information. For skeletal, you only have to include joints and weights. Your basically writing out the info you parsed from the FBX which is required for rendering. The FBX exporter has already done the hard work, extracting out required data for rendering is really straight forward, and saving that out is even more straight forward.

[Hendricks266]

FBX as a format sucks. It's like adding support for MAX files or BLEND files. I don't care how entrenched its ecosystem is. If we or others provide adequate tools (such as a Blender exporter), IQM rocks.

Creating a separate converter program to preprocess FBX files into a custom, non-portable, binary cooked asset format just for EDuke32 is both a ridiculous pipeline and totally anathema to a source port. Talk about "over complicating the problem at hand". I remember going through this with you for PolymerNG and you not budging, hence the chance of merging your work drops to (or remains at) zero.

[Hank]

Tea Monster, on 13 July 2017 - 11:44 PM, said:

cut >> "FBX has a limited clientele" - I don't know where you heard that, but it's not true. << cut

I assume you meant me?
I've got this right from the horses mouth
https://www.autodesk...ts/fbx/overview

Autodesk bought and peddles this format for a reason, I let you guess what the reason is.

While I'm forced to agree with your assessment in general, any opportunity not to use the monopoly format should at least be considered.

[icecoldduke]

Hendricks266, on 14 July 2017 - 08:53 AM, said:

IQM rocks.

Why?

[Spiker]

If you guys stopped bitching it would be done by now.

[Hendricks266]

Spiker, on 14 July 2017 - 08:59 AM, said:

If you guys stopped bitching it would be done by now.

Go back under the rock you came from.

[Mblackwell]

icecoldduke, on 14 July 2017 - 08:02 AM, said:

I read your post fast and didn't see the last part. One could also have eduke32 manually execute the model converter exe when it detects the assets are out of date, this still gets past the licensing issues. All engines do this kind of thing behind the scenes, and the tools have to make sure the end result is predictable.

The converter just writes out the data required for rendering. Here is a example. If you have a FBX without skeleton(so basically a static mesh), you only have to write out the geometry and material information. For skeletal, you only have to include joints and weights. Your basically writing out the info you parsed from the FBX which is required for rendering. The FBX exporter has already done the hard work, extracting out required data for rendering is really straight forward, and saving that out is even more straight forward.

But the format is always changing, which means you're constantly chasing the dragon. Just because something is ubiquitous doesn't make it the best choice for long term maintainability, flexibility, performance, and ease of implementation both by the engine coders or by the user. Additionally the more layers to get your work from editor to game the more chances there are for something to break in-between and it can be a nightmare to track down issues. Was it your editor that caused the issue? The specific export plugin used? A setting on that specific plugin? The conversation tool to get it to "game ready" format? Something in the DEF parser being broken? Or maybe it was the engine's handling of the resulting model? Etc.

[icecoldduke]

Mblackwell, on 14 July 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

But the format is always changing, which means you're constantly chasing the dragon.

It's true that newer versions of the format come out but all exporters I've used all you to export to older fbx formats. And upgrading to newer fbx sdks is really straight forward.

Most exporters support 4 to 5 years of backwards formats.

I think the iqm blender exporter hasn't been updated in almost 4 years.