[icecoldduke]

I'm not sure what you mean by preloader.

Mblackwell, on 25 July 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

Also that license is incompatible with EDuke32. You'd need to arrange it so you could build without FMOD and have an otherwise functioning game (and even then it's a bit of a grey area). FMOD license also would be incompatible with the fact that the engine is current in use for a commercial game.

Fmod license is incompatible with Shadow Warrior's GPL. I have gotten authorization from TermiT to use it in my port. To my knowledge there is no specific clause in the build license that would prohibit fmod.

[Mblackwell]

If the issue is that audio is only loaded at first call rather than stored in memory (causing hitching and other issues), the simple solution would just be to make a loader for all audio files at startup.

And it doesn't much matter if TermiT gave you an authorization, it's not something that could ever get in the main EDuke32 branch and it's even questionable that you are using it in something which is GPL.

[icecoldduke]

I stated just that a few posts ago. My new audio system will never go into eduke32 main. I know this already . If you read a posts up, the hitching was something I discovered later on. The audiolib re-write is because of other issues I stated in a few posts above that.

[Hendricks266]

Are you sure the audiolib rewrite isn't because you wanted to rip and tear in order to resolve the bug that was fixed by my one-line change?

[icecoldduke]

Hendricks266, on 25 July 2017 - 12:13 PM, said:

Are you sure the audiolib rewrite isn't because you wanted to rip and tear in order to resolve the bug that was fixed by my one-line change?

Your fix deals with the Polymost/Classic rendering issues when compile optimizations are on. Unforunetly I've been able to repo the race condition, with your change, in debug and release(with or without compile optimizations).

[Hendricks266]

icecoldduke, on 19 July 2017 - 08:58 PM, said:

I need to do some more testing with my audiolib findings before I report anything. There is definitely something going on, which is causing problems in my multithreading code, the problem is not 100% confident on where its coming from yet. SDL_Mixer is definetly fucking with classic and Polymost somehow in my branch. I just don't know how yet.

[icecoldduke]

I should have reported back sooner after that statement I agree, but my original statement stands.

[Mblackwell]

So why not figure out what's going on instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater? That would be more useful in the end for everyone.

[icecoldduke]

Mblackwell, on 25 July 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

So why not figure out what's going on instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater? That would be more useful in the end for everyone.

Because it's more then just the bug. I want to have proper positional audio, surround sound, occlusion damping, etc. Fmod works on all platforms, I loose nothing and gain a lot by switching over. Fyi I have noticed the game playing a lot smoother as well, but more testing will need to be done before I confirm that.

[Mblackwell]

So you're going to do extra work that only benefits this one project and can't be carried back into whatever VoidSW project, never find out what caused a bug (and introduce new bugs because of adding new systems), and you're at the same time going to live with incorrectly sampled audio, and audio that won't sound correct in relation to the various Ambient Sound sprites and their distances without a lot of manual tuning, just so you can have "positional audio" in 5.1 surround? You're also increasing your overall workload. I don't understand the logic.

[Forge]

Mblackwell, on 25 July 2017 - 01:10 PM, said:

So you're going to do extra work that only benefits this one project and can't be carried back into whatever VoidSW project....

this^
My concern is more about licensing, being free and clear to use this port for whatever, as many times & with as many assets as one pleases, and being able to bounce the work back and forth between this and the original eduke32 based port.
The licensing still seems a bit sketchy to me - I can't properly explain it because of my lack of knowledge in such things - but it just appears a bit 'incompatible' with eduke32 in a general sense.

If you're going to do all that work, just do the extra bit and use something really free - like Unity or some such thing.
-just my opinion. I have no doubt you can do whatever it is you're trying to do if you stay focused long enough, but tying in additional licenses from '3rd party software' ----lacks comfort

[Hank]

While I like stuff like Fmod, since it works well with Unity, something deep down tells me, it may be a little overkill for Iced SW. If you can make it work though, better sounds can be made for it; some studios even offer a wide array for free; the good one's need to be created or paid for.

For all others, logic has nothing to do with doing a hobby. If icecoldduke wants to do it, let him. His time, his project, his success or failure. Just like people climbing mountains, no rationality behind it, except, it's fun.

[Mblackwell]

Well, the license isn't compatible with GPL really. There's even big debate about whether it's legal for FMOD to be linked in a non-failing way.

[icecoldduke]

Forge, on 25 July 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

My concern is more about licensing, being free and clear to use this port for whatever.

The licensing is fine, you can make mods using my port without any issues.

Mblackwell, on 25 July 2017 - 01:21 PM, said:

Well, the license isn't compatible with GPL really. There's even big debate about whether it's legal for FMOD to be linked in a non-failing way.

The way around this, is by getting a GPL license exception. This is how the Duke3D and SW source code can be statically linked with the build engine. I got TermiT to allow me to do it, so there is no violation between FMOD and the GPL code, in the same way there is no GPL violation between the build engine and the game code.

Can we move on?

[Mblackwell]

icecoldduke, on 25 July 2017 - 01:28 PM, said:

The licensing is fine, you can make mods using my port without any issues.


The way around this, is by getting a GPL license exception. This is how the Duke3D and SW source code can be statically linked with the build engine. I got TermiT to allow me to do it, so there is no violation between FMOD and the GPL code, in the same way there is no GPL violation between the build engine and the game code.

TermiT runs Firelight Technologies?

[Master O]

icecoldduke, on 25 July 2017 - 04:59 AM, said:

Just so everyone knows, in the next update, I am changing the user.lua level tables. Music entries are now in there own table, and song name is now replaced with song id which points to a entry in the level table.

-- Music table, contains all the music for the game.
music = 
{
	[0] = {"none"},
	[1] = {"none"},
	[2] = {"music/track02.ogg"},
	[3] = {"music/track03.ogg"},
	[4] = {"music/track04.ogg"},
	[5] = {"music/track05.ogg"},
	[6] = {"music/track06.ogg"},
	[7] = {"music/track07.ogg"},
	[8] = {"music/track08.ogg"},
	[9] = {"music/track09.ogg"},
	[10] = {"music/track10.ogg"},
	[11] = {"music/track11.ogg"},
	[12] = {"music/track12.ogg"},
	[13] = {"music/track13.ogg"},
	[14] = {"music/track14.ogg"},
}

-- Game maps listed out invididually
levels =
{
    --       Level Name,     Song id,      Description,                 Best Time  Par Time
    -- Shareware Levels
    [ 0] = { "title.map",    2,    " ",                         " ",       " "       },
    [ 1] = { "$bullet.map",  4,  "Seppuku Station",           "0 : 55",  "5 : 00"  },
    [ 2] = { "$dozer.map",   9,  "Zilla Construction",        "4 : 59",  "8 : 00"  },
    [ 3] = { "$shrine.map",  12, "Master Leep's Temple",      "3 : 16",  "10 : 00" },
    [ 4] = { "$woods.map",   10, "Dark Woods of the Serpent", "7 : 06",  "16 : 00" },
	
    -- Registered Levels
    [ 5] = { "$whirl.map",   5,  "Rising Son",                "5 : 30",  "10 : 00" },
    [ 6] = { "$tank.map",    6,   "Killing Fields",            "1 : 46",  "4 : 00"  },
    [ 7] = { "$boat.map",    8,  "Hara-Kiri Harbor",          "1 : 56",  "4 : 00"  },
    [ 8] = { "$garden.map",  11, "Zilla's Villa",             "1 : 06",  "2 : 00"  },
    [ 9] = { "$outpost.map", 12, "Monastery",                 "1 : 23",  "3 : 00"  },
    [10] = { "$hidtemp.map", 5,  "Raider of the Lost Wang",   "2 : 05",  "4 : 10"  },
    [11] = { "$plax1.map",   10, "Sumo Sky Palace",           "6 : 32",  "12 : 00" },
    [12] = { "$bath.map",    4,  "Bath House",                "10 : 00", "10 : 00" },
    [13] = { "$airport.map", 6,  "Unfriendly Skies",          "2 : 59",  "6 : 00"  },
    [14] = { "$refiner.map", 9,  "Crude Oil",                 "2 : 40",  "5 : 00"  },
    [15] = { "$newmine.map", 7,  "Coolie Mines",              "2 : 48",  "6 : 00"  },
    [16] = { "$subbase.map", 10, "Subpen 7",                  "2 : 02",  "4 : 00"  },
    [17] = { "$rock.map",    8,  "The Great Escape",          "3 : 18",  "6 : 00"  },
    [18] = { "$yamato.map",  7,  "Floating Fortress",         "11 : 38", "20 : 00" },
    [19] = { "$seabase.map", 9,  "Water Torture",             "5 : 07",  "10 : 00" },
    [20] = { "$volcano.map", 10, "Stone Rain",                "9 : 15",  "20 : 00" },
    [21] = { "$shore.map",   11, "Shanghai Shipwreck",        "3 : 58",  "8 : 00"  },
    [22] = { "$auto.map",    5,  "Auto Maul",                 "4 : 07",  "8 : 00"  },
	
    -- Deathmatch Levels
    [23] = { "tank.map",     11,   "Heavy Metal (DM only)",     "10 : 00", "10 : 00" },
    [24] = { "$dmwoods.map", 8,  "Ripper Valley (DM only)",   "10 : 00", "10 : 00" },
    [25] = { "$dmshrin.map", 7,   "House of Wang (DM only)",   "10 : 00", "10 : 00" },
    [26] = { "$rush.map",    13,   "Lo Wang Rally (DM only)",   "10 : 00", "10 : 00" },
    [27] = { "shotgun.map",  5,  "Ruins of the Ronin (CTF)",  "10 : 00", "10 : 00" },
    [28] = { "$dmdrop.map",  6,   "Killing Fields (CTF)",      "10 : 00", "10 : 00" },
}

I assume that will also apply to .flac as well?

[Forge]

icecoldduke, on 25 July 2017 - 01:28 PM, said:

The way around this, is by getting a GPL license exception.

^this is what I mean - you have to manipulate things to be able to make things 'compatible'. Just seems a bit sketchy.

icecoldduke, on 25 July 2017 - 01:28 PM, said:

I got TermiT to allow me to do it, so there is no violation between FMOD and the GPL code

hope you have it in writing, signed, and notorized

[icecoldduke]

Mblackwell, on 25 July 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

TermiT runs Firelight Technologies?

Obviously not. I get it, you don't like it, but I'm moving forward with it .

Yes the music stuff applies to flac as well.

[MusicallyInspired]

What bugs me so much about all the work you do, icecoldduke, is that you're incredibly talented and also incredibly bullheaded. You won't take advice from people who've had their heads buried in all things Build for years thinking you know better because of all the games you've shipped. I don't know, maybe you think that these guys have had their heads buried in Build so long that they're too close to it and can't see it any other way. And you're the guy who'll come along and show them the brand new way that they haven't thought of all this time. I can't help but see this as exceedingly obnoxious. You're quite polite and full of smilies but that just increases the snob factor. You don't even accept criticism, let alone advice. You just keep sticking your nose up in the air and saying "trust me, guys". Well, we have and you've not "shipped" anything yet.

I just wish you'd do something worthwhile to contribute to the community and help improve EDuke32/VoidSW/etc which is generally the main focus of this community; things that will actually get us closer to what we're all dreaming of for this port. And that's what you said you were going to be doing in the first place by setting things in place that can be moved back over to VoidSW or whatever. But you just want to keep going off and doing your own thing. Now what you're planning is totally incompatible with what the Voidpoint team are trying to accomplish, like competition...which is fine, as Hank said. If it's fun for you, you can do whatever you want. The problem I have is that when you say all these things and make all these promises and then later completely abandon your work and move on to something else. Now, I get that because I do that with my projects all the time. Which is why working with others to realize the dream instead of adding these red herring obstacles and distractions that we can't take for granted would be the more admirable and beneficial route to take. We can't be convinced that you're going to even get anywhere with this project based on your history here so far so it's hard to respect anything you're doing.

I don't pretend to understand everything that's going on with these ports, but this is how it seems to me. It's just disappointing that we're just not getting anywhere despite all this work.

[Forge]

just do your thing icd, the port is working a lot better than it did when you first started & you've come a long way so far. (though you still have quite a way to go to finish & polish it).
I just find it unfortunate that you are attaching 3rd-party licenses to it that you probably don't have to - but that's only my opinion.

[icecoldduke]

I'm personally sorry you me that way. When I post smiley faces, I triy to ensure people don't take my comments as hostile. Apparently you took my comments as snobbish, which was not my intent. Here is where I'm at. I want to make a port that people can play and enjoy playing. I want to make a third episode mod. Those are my two goals. I get Hendricks, TX and Mblackwell don't like my approaches to various problems. In retrospect I get why the PolymerNG pipeline sucked. I just came off of a project that had that same pipeline, and I get why you guys hated it. It was a stupid decision on my part to go that route.

My approaches haven't been all bad, and you are correct, in this community, I haven't delivered on a final product. Let's fast forward to this project. I'm trying to make this project as developer and modder friendly as possible. I need a platform to develop my new mod. I need a platform that I can play Shadow Warrior with my son, and not have him be turned off by the old graphics and audio. I only wanted to share info on audiolib2 using fmod I finished audiolib2 and let you guys see for yourselves. Unforunetly this time around, my working repository is public. You guys were going to see the fmod integration anyway.

All I'm asking is for everyone to reserve judgement until I deliver something, and then we can argue about something tangible, rather then something that doesn't exist yet.

[Hank]

not sure if this is relevant, ZDoom used Fmod. GZDoom reverted to a purist approach, which needed years to fix.
The rest I wrote before, for now, I'm looking forward to this.

[Mblackwell]

icecoldduke, on 25 July 2017 - 01:37 PM, said:

Obviously not. I get it, you don't like it, but I'm moving forward with it .

Yes the music stuff applies to flac as well.

That's who would grant you the exception.

[Master O]

Hank, on 25 July 2017 - 03:39 PM, said:

not sure if this is relevant, ZDoom used Fmod. GZDoom reverted to a purist approach, which needed years to fix.
The rest I wrote before, for now, I'm looking forward to this.

GZdoom no longer uses FMOD, as of version 3.0.0. GZdoom became fully open source as a result with a GPLv3 license.

Version 3.1.0 added single player support for Strife: Veteran Edition.

ICD, GZdoom uses OpenAL, if I'm not mistaken. That is open source if you're open to using that.

[icecoldduke]

I thought about OpenAL soft(the new version of OpenAL that has a whole bunch of added features since creative labs open sourced the library), but its multiplatform support is terrible. I've evaluated OpenAL soft on professionial level projects, and as I mentioned, its multi platform support is hit or miss. For Windows only apps, it works great.

Mblackwell, on 25 July 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

That's who would grant you the exception.

https://www.gnu.org/...ncompatibleLibs

Quote

Only the copyright holders for the program can legally release their software under these terms. If you wrote the whole program yourself, then assuming your employer or school does not claim the copyright, you are the copyright holder—so you can authorize the exception. But if you want to use parts of other GPL-covered programs by other authors in your code, you cannot authorize the exception for them. You have to get the approval of the copyright holders of those programs.

TermiT falls under "copyright holder" in this context. I do not need Fmod's permission, only permission from the copyright holder to the Shadow Warrior IP.

Can we please move on and wait for judgement until I finish the new audiolib?

[Master O]

icecoldduke, on 25 July 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

I thought about OpenAL soft(the new version of OpenAL that has a whole bunch of added features since creative labs open sourced the library), but its multiplatform support is terrible. I've evaluated OpenAL soft on professionial level projects, and as I mentioned, its multi platform support is hit or miss. For Windows only apps, it works great.


https://www.gnu.org/...ncompatibleLibs


TermiT falls under "copyright holder" in this context. I do not need Fmod's permission, only permission from the copyright holder to the Shadow Warrior IP.

Can we please move on and wait for judgement until I finish the new audiolib?

I for one eagerly await the new audiolib. I'm not getting all the negativity. If anything, you're doing everyone a massive favor by fixing the old sound code.

[Forge]

icecoldduke, on 25 July 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

Can we please move on and wait for judgement until I finish the new audiolib?

I think it's cool that you want to re-work the audio handling

just beware getting your port tied up with third-party licenses and dead-ending it

https://www.doomworl...ever-come-back/

[Hank]

low level sample
 Ambience21-03Two.mp3 (462.86K)
Number of downloads: 4
... simple sound loop, just to ease the tension.

[Mark]

Was that ambience music supposed to settle things down? Now I'm real mad.

[icecoldduke]

Forge, on 25 July 2017 - 05:54 PM, said:

just beware getting your port tied up with third-party licenses and dead-ending it

My project is not going to be dead ended. I would be surprised if anyone picked up my work and wanted to make a commercial product out of it(like people wanted to do with zdoom). EDuke32 has that market covered already. My port is going to be designed for people that want to make high quality Shadow Warrior mods, or play Shadow Warrior with the best quality visuals and audio possible. That's my goal.