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Age Of Empires Corner

User is offline   Sledgehammer 

  • 491

#61

View PostZaxx, on 22 August 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

As for Relic: I seriously don't get why people start literally hating good developers when they fuck something up. DoW3 was bad? Yes, it was but the thought process always stop there, there is no analysis, DoW3 was bad = Relic is shit now. Really? Let me tell you one thing: SEGA made money on DoW3. The game seems like a flop in every sense of the word yet SEGA actually managed to MAKE money on it. Now how is that possible? It's only possible if SEGA gave a very limited development budget to Relic. You can't make a proper RTS from pocket money, it's like going up to the best cook in the world and saying "here's a dollar, now show me what you can do, make me lunch!" No matter the cook, you'll get a shit lunch out of one dollar.

Relic is working with and under Microsoft Studios now (MS actually develops their own games too, they are not acting merely as publisher here) and they get the budget from MS which chances are means a proper AAA development budget. A lot is riding on the success of AoE4 for Microsoft, this game will make or break the Windows Store and MS as a PC developer / publisher + if this game is shit then AoE, the most important PC IP of Microsoft is dead. These are the situations when usually great games appear at the end because there's simply so much at stake that there is no other option.

Are you saying that DoW3 is their only bad game? Did you forget about DoW2 already? Don't blame you though, it deserved to be forgotten. CoH2 wasn't that great either, it was a big disappointment for CoH fans too (CoH is way better than the sequel). DoW3 isn't the first fuck up of Relic.

Is there any actual data if DoW3 was actually profitable anyway? No speculation but hard data, because I can't find any and that's why I'm skeptical and don't trust them at all, as I said, this is not their first fuck up anyway. However, even with small budget Relic could put some more efforts and make it at least decent RTS game on the level of first DoW. They could make at least good core mechanics with low budget, majority of DoW fans basically asked for a reskin of the first game, but instead they decided to be "innovate" and fucked up the core mechanics too, they didn't even try to make it at least decent, it felt like they just didn't give a shit about the game at all. Even if the budget was actually small it all went to waste, they pretty much wanted to make DoW3 the way it is if you read their interviews and this is the main problem about this game and why I don't trust Relic.

I mean, I can easily name ton of high budget games which are pure shit, so this is weak excuse. I can also name you some restaurants where food tastes like shit and has high price if necessary, in the end, if cook has no talent his food won't taste any good no matter how high the price for his food is. And actually I feel like if I tried to do some digging I would definitely find out that majority of old Relic talent left the company and I bet this is the reason why Relic isn't as good anymore. I have no doubt that DoW3 is shit because the people behind its development just don't know how to make a proper RTS game.

Also, AoE is hardly MS most important IP, this title belongs to Halo which they can't let go to this day and keep making shittier and shittier. Speaking of which, judging by Halo Wars 2 they aren't really competent when it comes to making RTS games too. AoE stopped being relevant for MS since the release of that shitty mobile version and that was ton of years ago, I'm actually surprised why they decided to bring it back given that RTS is a niche genre, nearly dead. Even when CoD on Windows Store can't make any money, I don't see how RTS can become more successful. Maybe they run out of ideas or something, Microsoft isn't wise when it comes to making good decisions nowadays.

So, as people say "I'll believe when I see it", if the game will turn out to be good it would be a huge miracle, although I'm not going to bother with Windows Store no matter how good it's going to be. Killer Instinct didn't make me and neither will this game. It have to be a huge masterpiece to convince me to install Windows 10 again.

This post has been edited by Sledgehammer: 22 August 2017 - 02:04 PM

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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • 22

#62

View PostSledgehammer, on 22 August 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

snip

The problem is that you won't find any hard data on just how feasible DoW3 was for SEGA but on SteamSpy you can get a really good idea on the sales figures:
https://steamspy.com/app/285190

Apparently they sold around 300 000 copies and if that's a plus then that means the budget was extremely limited for a proper RTS. Don't expect any expansions though, I don't think SEGA thinks it's THAT good. :D

As for what Relic says well, let's not forget that Relic is a company owned by SEGA and that nobody in their right mind would say "yeah, this is not the game we wanted to make" before the game's release. I think this is just PR bullshit and I get the feeling that the game's design is a design that got invented as a way to get around the low budget. It's clear that you simply can't develop a game that is on the level of the first one if you don't have the money to do it so instead they opted for this weird mishmash of the first two games and hoped it will work out. It didn't. Btw. I wouldn't say that DoW2 was a bad game, quite the contrary: it was a great game, just a very different one and it has a very large fanbase that prefers it over DoW1. That's also something that could have affected DoW3's design: the need to please both fanbases.

AoE does not have this clash, the core game design is basically set in stone and budgetary limitations won't stop MS and Relic from making the game they really want to make. Don't expect huge changes, I'm pretty sure it will be a game in the vein of AoE2 with a few interesting additions that aims to find the sweet spot between AoE2 and AoE3.

Quote

Also, AoE is hardly MS most important IP, this title belongs to Halo

Halo is irrelevant on PC, AoE isn't. Look, AoE2 HD Edition sold around 4.5 million copies on Steam, I think that's more than what Halo 5 sold honestly. :D Make no mistake: AoE is a very strong IP and one that is very important to MS now, especially since the problems they had with Xbox One. MS is basically frustrated now by the fact that Valve made a killing on the platform they created and that they happened to release a cashcow in the form of AoE2 HD even though it was a minimal effort, small little retro release of a franchise they thought was already forgotten. They want the Windows platform back when it comes to gaming and AoE4 is the killer app they need in order to get it back to some extent.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 22 August 2017 - 03:29 PM

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User is online   Micky C 

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#63

So is the game not being released on MacOS at all then?

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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • 22

#64

View PostMicky C, on 22 August 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

So is the game not being released on MacOS at all then?

They did not say anything about platforms but the huge ass Windows 10 logo at the end of the trailer pretty much says "don't count on it". Also expect at least timed Windows 10 exclusivity.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 22 August 2017 - 04:42 PM

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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • 22

#65

Damn, when it comes to the music of AoE DE they really knocked it out of the park with the new version of Gray Sky, it's a fuckin' eargasm:


Here's the original just for the sake of easy comparison:

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User is offline   Sledgehammer 

  • 491

#66

View PostZaxx, on 22 August 2017 - 03:10 PM, said:

if that's a plus then that means the budget was extremely limited for a proper RTS.

The key word is If here. I honestly doubt it was profitable, especially if you look at those 50% discount coupons which they were sending recently.

View PostZaxx, on 22 August 2017 - 03:10 PM, said:

As for what Relic says well, let's not forget that Relic is a company owned by SEGA and that nobody in their right mind would say "yeah, this is not the game we wanted to make" before the game's release.

Knowing SEGA and how they love to give a lot of freedom to their developers, I doubt that, it's very true especially when it comes to Total Warhammer games. I mean, look at their other Warhammer game from CA which turned out to be decent and pretty sure it also sold much better than DoW3, I read somewhere that SEGA had no involvement in development and CA did everything the way they wanted. Look at other SEGA games too, they have shitton of games from both West and Japan which are still good and barely had any kind of SEGA's involvement. SEGA was known for rushing games in the past, however, especially when it comes to Sonic games and that was one of their biggest problem. Otherwise, SEGA was nowhere near the level of EA or MS. And if you look at Relic interviews those weren't on the level of, say, interviews of C&C4 developers and I would rather not talk about this shitshow, I bet you know what's the deal anyway and how they addressed "wrong" questions especially if you followed its development. I can't really explain it to you well, but there is huge difference between those. I never felt that Relic was forced to make DoW3 the way it is or that it was a shitty spinoff turned into a sequel.

Actually, after some digging I found out that DoW3 was indeed developed by different people, the only known faces I saw were Damon Gauthier who was designer and Philippe Boulle who directed DoW3 and, surprise, he was designer for DoW2. No wonder they decided to go "innovate" with DoW3 and made it the way it is. I bet it would be for the better if SEGA had any kind of involvement in DoW3 development and if they had someone with RTS basics knowledge.

View PostZaxx, on 22 August 2017 - 03:10 PM, said:

AoE does not have this clash, the core game design is basically set in stone and budgetary limitations won't stop MS and Relic from making the game they really want to make. Don't expect huge changes, I'm pretty sure it will be a game in the vein of AoE2 with a few interesting additions that aims to find the sweet spot between AoE2 and AoE3.

The people behind it have never worked on AoE games and that should be your first red flag. I definitely expect some bullshit "innovations" in this case too, wouldn't be the first time anyway, changing core gameplay was and still is one of the most common mistakes committed by RTS developers these days.

View PostZaxx, on 22 August 2017 - 03:10 PM, said:

Halo is irrelevant on PC, AoE isn't. Look, AoE2 HD Edition sold around 4.5 million copies on Steam, I think that's more than what Halo 5 sold honestly. :D Make no mistake: AoE is a very strong IP and one that is very important to MS now, especially since the problems they had with Xbox One. MS is basically frustrated now by the fact that Valve made a killing on the platform they created and that they happened to release a cashcow in the form of AoE2 HD even though it was a minimal effort, small little retro release of a franchise they thought was already forgotten. They want the Windows platform back when it comes to gaming and AoE4 is the killer app they need in order to get it back to some extent.

And PC is irrelevant for MS, all they care about is Xbox. They do care about it a lot and will likely never drop it because of their incompetence, not matter how much Xbox will bleed they won't drop it in favor of PC. AoE is a great RTS series and it's a fact that it was irrelevant for MS for a long time as well. AoE re-releases on Steam made ton of money and I know this, but it wasn't because of MS, I'm pretty sure they barely had any kind of involvement in development of those re-releases and new content for them (I wonder even how many original people worked on those re-releases actually). MS started to "care" with their own remasters and their "caring" already shows (not only remake looks meh, it's Windows 10 exclusive just like AoE4). Also, I'm sure that AoE2 HD sold better than any Xbox exclusive at this point. Xbox is a huge joke.

Come on, I'm Japanese and even I know that MS never truly cared about PC market either and this is exactly why they have no monopoly there (thankfully). In fact, I think they're trying to "care" only to convince more developers to use their DX12 which is such a joke when it comes to games, I think DX10 had it better. Or maybe they want to force more people to install Windows 10. Too bad it looks like mobile OS with low quality Google Play which they call Windows Store. I think even Android apps are more open than UWP apps. I surely hope that MS is fully funding the game, otherwise AoE4 failure is going to hurt SEGA with Relic a lot because Windows 10 is even less popular than Xbox and making Xbox exclusives nowadays is almost a death sentence.

What's funny is that if MS really cared about PC they could easily outperform Valve and become a serious competitor. They can do so any day and it wouldn't cost them ton of money they're wasting on Xbox, but they'll never do that, they'll rather go bankrupt than support PC market properly.

This post has been edited by Sledgehammer: 23 August 2017 - 01:57 AM

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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • 22

#67

I won't touch on the Relic stuff anymore because honestly we could argue about it for weeks without reaching a consensus since the main problem is that you don't believe the rumours. I believe that SEGA made money on DoW3 and not only because of the rumours but because I feel the low budget on the game: on how it plays, on how it looks, on how it lacks in ambition etc. so let's just agree to disagree there.

What I'll touch upon is this:

View PostSledgehammer, on 23 August 2017 - 01:56 AM, said:

And PC is irrelevant for MS, all they care about is Xbox.

This will feel like a history lesson but I sense that next to nobody understands what Microsoft is doing these days (including the journalists, they are so baffled at the Gamescom presentations it's not even funny though some of them feel what is going on) but I think I have a really good grasp on that so hear me out.

You see back in the day when the Xbox project was greenlit Bill Gates gave it the thumbs up because of one thing: he had an innovative idea when it comes to gaming. The mid to late 90s was the golden age of PC gaming while Sony also made a killing with the Playstation so the idea came up that if one company managed to merge those two segments into one platform that company would control the market. This was the concept of the Xbox: a Trojan horse deployed to the console market, a console that is very close to a PC in its hardware specifications and would work in tandem with Windows PCs in order to unify the two markets. But of course the technology wasn't there, they could not figure out how to do it so essentially the idea was dropped and the original Xbox console was just that, a console.

Then came the Xbox 360, a much more capable machine but on the other hand the PC gaming market was in a bad shape. MS wanted to change that and that's why they introduced Game for Windows Live, a service that was very close to Xbox Live and operated along the same principles. They even released a few games with Xbox 360 - PC crossplay, for example Shadowrun 2007 but of course as we all know GfWL was a huge failure mainly because they wanted to force an ecosystem on PC gamers that was very much incompatible with PC gaming (they wanted paid subscriptions for example) and because GfWL was just a buggy, shitty application that made your life worse. Meanwhile Steam gained popularity and after a very short period of time MS had no choice but to scrap the plans again and silently opt out of PC gaming. The Xbox division still failed to make good money but at least they've won the 7th generation console war and even though Sony managed to catch up by the end the future of the Xbox as a simple console seemed bright.

Then comes 2013 and the good people at Microsoft introduce the Xbox One: they market it as this weird family living room device that will bring you so much TV that you'll feel like you're in one and of course there's the Kinect too: what a hit! Compared to the PS4 the XBone is also underpowered as fuck while Sony does its best at focusing on gaming instead of Microsoft's "jack of all trades, master of none" approach so the new Xbox's launch ends up being a colossal fuck up. Microsoft quickly realizes that they lost the 8th console generation as soon as it started, everyone responsible gets fired and they start thinking on how to stop the Titanic before it hits the iceberg. Then the idea materializes again: "The PC is strong thanks to Steam, we have Windows, we have the Xbox, we have the technology, let's try merging platforms again!" Windows 8 sucks balls too so work on Windows 10 heats up and the company hierarchy goes through some restructuring in the form of the Xbox division going below and reporting directly to the Windows division from now on. Some time after the release of Windows 10 the Xbox One gets updated with a "dumbed down" version of the OS and so Bill Gates' idea, the Universal Windows Platform is born.

According to fresh data Sony sold around 65 million units from the PS4 while Microsoft is just barely above the 30 million mark with the Xbox One so you can be damn sure that PC is very important for Microsoft these days, hell, that's the single most important thing to them. "In unity lies strength" is the motto but we're in a transitional period now where the plans that were set in motion are not fully felt yet. Don't underestimate the company that trashed the PS3 after the PS2's tremendous success, Microsoft, the devourer of companies is back on PC and they want blood. :D

And hey, I know that this can be a bit hard to grasp from Japan because there Microsoft failed with the Xbox right after the first iteration came out (they barely sold any consoles if I remember correctly) and they abandoned the Japanese market very quickly but just give the words above some thought. You're right, the Xbox is not making real money, that's why they want to change the nature of it.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 23 August 2017 - 04:08 AM

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User is offline   Sledgehammer 

  • 491

#68

The moment when they start giving a shit about PC will happen only after they abandon Xbox and even though it's dead in real world in MS own world it's still alive and kicking, so I wouldn't count on that. :teehee: It feels like they don't even trying to care if you look at AoE4 treatment, like they don't want to sell the game at all. If I didn't know how dumb MS is I would think that they want to sabotage the game and remake on purpose. I think even SEGA's new console release will happen sooner than MS proper support for PC market. Too bad, Valve could use some competition. Would be nice if SEGA started their own PC store and brought some exclusives to compete with Steam, by the way. They have enough competence and money to make things

I wouldn't say that Xbox was a failure in Japan, you don't even have to know the history about Xbox, all what you need is to look at Xbox catalog (I'm talking about the first one and most importantly about 360). With Xbone they basically let go every Japanese developer they had and Sony was smart enough to use this in their advantage as well (Xbone is the sole reason why PS4 is still a thing and turned out to be successful, although even PS3 was more successful). Xbox was kind of like Dreamcast for developers in Japan, it was a perfect place for arcade and indie Japanese games after SEGA stopped Dreamcast support. You see, back then Sony wanted to see only AAA releases on their consoles, even since the PS1 release where they wanted to see only 3D games. With PS3 they alienated Japanese developers even further because of terrible architecture which is a huge pain in the ass to work with. MS actually actively used this (see XBLA, for example) and they fully acknowledged that 360 was popular in Japan and among Japanese developers.

I should admit I was very surprised when MS gave all those developers to Sony so willingly with Xbone release.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • 22

#69

View PostSledgehammer, on 23 August 2017 - 06:58 AM, said:

The moment when they start giving a shit about PC will happen only after they abandon Xbox

But that's the thing: they won't abandon the Xbox. However let's not forget that this year's biggest MS game announcement was hands down Age of Empires 4 so it's a balancing act at this point. Most Xbox exclusives are coming to PC and I really support that initiative because I think that MS finally starts to realize what other console manufacturers don't: that the PC is a different market that lends itself better to co-existing with consoles rather than posing direct competition. As an idea UWP is great, we'll just have to see if they manage to execute it well. According to them a big Win Store revamp is coming (chances are in the next major Win 10 update) so things will get more interesting in a while.

Quote

I wouldn't say that Xbox was a failure in Japan

It was tough: the original Xbox sold around 500 000 units in Japan in its lifetime which is ridiculously low. Xbox started out with a large focus on Japanese game development but the console sold badly and the Japanese department released terrible titles (anyone remember Kakuto Chojin? :D), basically their only big title was Dead or Alive 3 so they disbanded the team very quickly. The 360 fared a bit better but even that one only sold around 1.6 million units which compared to Sony's numbers is abysmal. And the Xbox One? Well, these funny little articles tell it all:
http://www.vgchartz....ry-2017-update/
https://www.reddit.c..._week_in_japan/
https://www.technobu...cer-xbox-japan/

Also in 2016 there was a week in Japan where the Xbox 360 managed to sell only ONE unit. :DDD
https://www.reddit.c...sales_in_japan/

Honestly Phil Spencer is right: when it comes to games and marketing Microsoft is so "American" that they are basically aliens for the Japanese audience and because of this they have a hard time even in Europe.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 23 August 2017 - 09:28 AM

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User is offline   Sledgehammer 

  • 491

#70

Yeah, I made strong emphasis on Japanese developers for a reason. And with 360 not only development wasn't such a big problem, companies were able to accomplish better sales outside of domestic market as well which is very important thing about 360. I would like 360 over PS3 more if it wasn't for paid online though, one of the worst things about 360 and modern consoles now. Liked the fact that hardware was really powerful there too compared to PS3.

Xbone sold like shit across the entire world though and I pretty much covered it already. I think even when PC gaming wasn't as popular it still was more successful than Xbone. That thought of Spencer must be terribly old, by the way, considering that PS4 killed it without trying in America as well.

This post has been edited by Sledgehammer: 23 August 2017 - 10:43 AM

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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • 22

#71

View PostSledgehammer, on 23 August 2017 - 10:42 AM, said:

Xbone sold like shit across the entire world though and I pretty much covered it already. I think even when PC gaming wasn't as popular it still was more successful than Xbone. That thought of Spencer must be terribly old, by the way, considering that PS4 killed it without trying in America as well.

Honestly at this point you're just fighting against facts. The XBone is popular in the US, it's not that behind the PS4 in sales:
http://www.vgchartz....ry-2017-update/

The rest of the world is where MS gets the beating.
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User is offline   Sledgehammer 

  • 491

#72

VGChartz isn't very accurate if you want real hard data, but still what facts, that PS4 was leading in America (it still does)? And it absolutely killed Xbone without trying in USA (on release when it matters the most, I think it was obvious what I meant). From what I read MS had very successful sales during December of previous year though.

Anyway, I think we went too offtopic.

This post has been edited by Sledgehammer: 23 August 2017 - 11:37 AM

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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • 22

#73

Quote

VGChartz isn't very accurate if you want real hard data

These are not videogame sales, these are console sales. It's accurate.

Anyway yay, gameplay:

It's a shame though that some of the unit avatars seems like placeholders.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 23 August 2017 - 01:21 PM

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User is online   Tea Monster 

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#74

Windows 10 and XBone are code-compatible. They are trying to unify the market. That is why they are pushing Live with AoE:DE. They want to use AoE:DE to push Live onto PC gamers and, of course, tie more consumers to the Windows store.

This all went disastrously wrong the last time they tried this with Games for Windows Live, but of course, some people never learn.
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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

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#75

On the one hand, bringing RTS to consoles is a good thing. On the other hand, console-ifying Age of Empires is possibly the darkest nightmare I can think of and I wouldn't WANT it on PC.

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User is offline   gemeaux333 

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#76

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 23 August 2017 - 05:08 PM, said:

On the one hand, bringing RTS to consoles is a good thing. On the other hand, console-ifying Age of Empires is possibly the darkest nightmare I can think of and I wouldn't WANT it on PC.


It already happened for Supreme Commander 2 when Chris Taylor sold the IP rights to Square-Enix (like Dungeon Siege too) !

This post has been edited by gemeaux333: 23 August 2017 - 05:43 PM

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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • 22

#77

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 23 August 2017 - 05:08 PM, said:

On the one hand, bringing RTS to consoles is a good thing. On the other hand, console-ifying Age of Empires is possibly the darkest nightmare I can think of and I wouldn't WANT it on PC.

All AoE games will be Windows exclusive just like how Halo will remain console exclusive. Unifying the two platforms doesn't mean that Windows and Xbox won't have their own flavours and specific structure. For example on Windows we don't have to pay for Xbox Live multiplayer of course but instead of what happened in the days of GfWL we get the same service as Xbox users.

People say that the Xbox and Windows stores will become one store soon tough and that in the future the Xbox One's backwards compatibility feature is coming to Windows 10 too.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 23 August 2017 - 10:44 PM

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User is offline   BloodGuy 

  • 34

#78

Lol I once coded an Age of Empires-clone from scratch, with the only difference that you play a commander in first person, which changes the gameplay completely. You must build watchtowers to have a view over your town walls :lol:
Now that AOE is a topic again I think I should search it on my drive and continue programming
It has a very bad title: crushdoms, i must overthink that!



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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • 22

#79

I'm in the closed beta of AoE DE and there is an NDA on it so I won't share significant stuff but let me tell you this: wow, this brings back memories. :D When it comes to the atmosphere and the gameplay MS and the Forgotten team really knocked this out of the park: it's classic AoE through and through with nice new features to smooth out the old gameplay and the visuals are great once you get used to the whole thing. They polished up the colour scheme compared to what you can see in the trailers so it's a nice, nostalgic, colourful game.

However this is very much an "old school" beta meaning that it doesn't feel like a demo but a true beta version. There is clearly a lot of stuff that needs fixing.
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User is offline   MrFlibble 

  • 449

#80

Will they release the original game as freeware similar to what Blizzard did?
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User is offline   BestViking 

  • 68

#81

View PostZaxx, on 13 September 2017 - 04:30 AM, said:

They polished up the colour scheme compared to what you can see in the trailers so it's a nice, nostalgic, colourful game.


I hope so. The graphics in the trailer looked a bit plasticky, slightly less bleak and dull than HoMM4.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • 22

#82

View PostBestViking, on 13 September 2017 - 12:14 PM, said:

I hope so. The graphics in the trailer looked a bit plasticky, slightly less bleak and dull than HoMM4.

I think the IGN gameplay video I posted a few weeks ago gives a good comparison but the saturation is off there. As for other stuff and the "plasticky" feel I'd rather not say anything simply because the game is not finished. It may not look like that at first glance when you're watching a gameplay video (which takes place on a map specifically designed for Gamescom with a set of gameplay that works to showcase some of the new features but that's really it) but you definitely feel it when you're playing the game.
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