[AP Dukefan94]

Hello fellow duke fans, I've been wondering what game engines were used throughout the franchise. I know there have been quite a few used throughout the series. I'm not an expert but I do know a few:

Duke Nukem 3D- Build
Duke Nukem Total Meltdown-Build
Duke Nukem 64-Build
Duke Nukem Manhattan Project-Prism 3d
Duke Nukem Forever-Unreal 1

Anyone is allowed to contribute to the list. Thank you for any contributions.

[Hendricks266]

There is some evidence that Zero Hour is an evolution of parts of the Duke 64 code. I believe one of the devs confirmed the Build Editor was used to make the levels.

[Micky C]

Didn't DNF ultimately break off from the Unreal 2/2.5 engine? Although there have been many threads debating this so I don't want to open a can of worms.

I'm fairly confident it's safe to say that it's been modified enough to more or less be its own engine, even if it does use sizeable chunks of some form of Unreal.

[AP Dukefan94]

Wow that is some really interesting stuff going on with Zero Hour and DNF. In fact i think 3D Realms should have kept at it with Build and evolving it further like Zero Hour (if it could have been done).Now I'm curious to know what n-space used for Time To Kill and Land of the Babes.

[necroslut]

AP Dukefan94, on 19 October 2016 - 08:48 PM, said:

Wow that is some really interesting stuff going on with Zero Hour and DNF. In fact i think 3D Realms should have kept at it with Build and evolving it further like Zero Hour (if it could have been done).Now I'm curious to know what n-space used for Time To Kill and Land of the Babes.

Most games then, especially console games, used their own engines. Overhead was too expensive. But Land of the Babes seems to have been built on top of TIme to Kill.

Micky C, on 19 October 2016 - 08:25 PM, said:

Didn't DNF ultimately break off from the Unreal 2/2.5 engine? Although there have been many threads debating this so I don't want to open a can of worms.

I'm fairly confident it's safe to say that it's been modified enough to more or less be its own engine, even if it does use sizeable chunks of some form of Unreal.

IIRC George stated that they broke off from Unreal "around the time of Unreal 2", and later that the only Unreal code that remained in the game was net- and input code (and possibly script system - not sure)?

[High Treason]

Either that, or they were extremely minimal and modular like BRender; https://en.wikipedia...t_Games#BRender
That's just the first one I can think of and, so far as I know, no Duke game ever used it. I wouldn't be surprised if the process was similar though. Such as how Argonaut had their own "in-house" engine and toolkit, n-space probably had theirs built on the same concepts.

Programming an engine specifically for a game was more of a 4th gen and before way of doing things when games were smaller, by the time 5th generation systems came around it was becoming impractical and even infeasible (not to mention, expensive) to develop a new engine for every game... Tomb Raider being the best example as it stayed with that same crappy engine and god awful rendering system for at least four games with only small updates. Even a generation before this was becoming more common, such as how the Sonic games all use practically the same engine and even appear to be built directly on top of each other.

[necroslut]

High Treason, on 19 October 2016 - 10:25 PM, said:

Either that, or they were extremely minimal and modular like BRender; https://en.wikipedia...t_Games#BRender
That's just the first one I can think of and, so far as I know, no Duke game ever used it. I wouldn't be surprised if the process was similar though. Such as how Argonaut had their own "in-house" engine and toolkit, n-space probably had theirs built on the same concepts.

Programming an engine specifically for a game was more of a 4th gen and before way of doing things when games were smaller, by the time 5th generation systems came around it was becoming impractical and even infeasible (not to mention, expensive) to develop a new engine for every game... Tomb Raider being the best example as it stayed with that same crappy engine and god awful rendering system for at least four games with only small updates. Even a generation before this was becoming more common, such as how the Sonic games all use practically the same engine and even appear to be built directly on top of each other.

Yeah, a lot of studios had their own tools and libraries and so on, but the extremely generalized engines like Unreal, Unity etc that are around today would not have been very efficient at the time. With the games that did use pre-built engines (without a lot of customization, and even with) you could often easily tell due to how specialized they were. I'm not nearly familiar enough with nSpace's non-Duke output to recognize anything, though.
That did not matter much for sequels usually (like Tomb Raider, Sonic or Land of the Babes, as they were intended to be very mechanically and visually similar to the predecessors.

On-topic: The Saturn version of Duke 3D used Lobotomy's in-house SlaveDriver engine, the same used in the Saturn version of PowerSlave/Exhumed.

[The Kins]

AP Dukefan94, on 19 October 2016 - 08:48 PM, said:

Now I'm curious to know what n-space used for Time To Kill and Land of the Babes.

Some old unused copyright text on the disc refers to "NewDuke". That's probably more a codename for the game itself, but for lack of a formal name for the engine developed for the game, it's as good as we're gonna get for now.

Has anyone ever tried poking around inside that game's file formats etc? Might be some interesting stuff.

EDIT SINCE I ALMOST FORGOT: Duke Nukem Advance uses Southpaw, a GBA-centric engine by Torus Games that was also used for Ice Nine and, uh, Doom 2 GBA.

[icecoldduke]

AP Dukefan94, on 19 October 2016 - 08:48 PM, said:

In fact i think 3D Realms should have kept at it with Build

I disagree with that. The big lighting tech back in the 90's was lightmaps. Lightmaps wouldn't have worked well with the build engine. George and Scott made the right call by switching engines, they should have just gone to Unreal from the start, rather then idTech. Keep in mind they could have shipped on idtech, if they would have dropped the "we want big outdoor" maps.

[cybdmn]

necroslut, on 19 October 2016 - 10:39 PM, said:

On-topic: The Saturn version of Duke 3D used Lobotomy's in-house SlaveDriver engine, the same used in the Saturn version of PowerSlave/Exhumed.

And Powerslave/Exhumed for the PSX, and Quake for the Saturn.

[cybdmn]

The Kins, on 20 October 2016 - 03:37 AM, said:

EDIT SINCE I ALMOST FORGOT: Duke Nukem Advance uses Southpaw, a GBA-centric engine by Torus Games that was also used for Ice Nine and, uh, Doom 2 GBA.

https://forums.duke4...5001#entry55001

[K1n9_Duk3]

Duke Nukem 1 is technically Dark Ages with some enhancements (bigger maps that also scroll vertically, backdrops, etc.) and some things cut out (AdLib music). Both games use the ProGraphx Toolbox written by Peder Jungck for drawing tile-based images (either 16x16 pixel tiles or 8x8 pixel tiles), but those routines are really low-level (pure assembly) and cannot really be called an engine. Crystal Caves and Secret Agent also used a later version of ProGraphx, but the games were completely different from Duke 1 and Dark Ages (CC & SA were written in Pascal, DA & DN were written in C).

Duke Nukem 2 is technically Cosmo's Cosmic Adventure with some enhancements. Some say that Cosmo itself was an enhanced version of Duke 1, but there are too many changes, like formats of the level files and sprite data. Even drawing 8x8 pixel tiles works differently in Cosmo. Apart from the sound and joystick routines (which came from old id Software/Softdisk code), Cosmo was almost completely new code. Duke 2 added VGA colors, VOC sound effects and VGA FLIC animations, among other things.

[Fox]

Hendricks266, on 19 October 2016 - 08:00 PM, said:

There is some evidence that Zero Hour is an evolution of parts of the Duke 64 code. I believe one of the devs confirmed the Build Editor was used to make the levels.

I once asked Beacham about it, and he said they used a modified Build editor to make the levels. But playing the game it's quite obvious they are using the Build engine, basically it's like the 3D final boss but applied to the whole game.

[Hendricks266]

This thread rocks.

[AP Dukefan94]

@Hendricks226, thank you. I don't anything about video game building, but I've heard of the engines used to make them and was curious to see it through the Duke game history.

If any anyone has the physical manuals for DNTTK and DNLOTB you want to check them out. In TTK, itmentions Argounout and something about a demo was made or something. In LOTB, there is one part in it that it says something like "Thanks for the original TTK Team for securing down the code" or something close to that. I wish I had a way to upload photos of those pages from TTK & LOTB. If anyone can, it would be appreciated.

[Fox]

Time to Kill blocky style of maps is similar to Tomb Rider. Does anyone knows about the Tomb Rider engine?

[AP Dukefan94]

Not sure what Eidos used for Tomb Raider, but that engine looks like it have been used for Gex and Fighting Force. Then again I could be wrong. To bad N-Space shutdown earlier this year, it wiuld be nice if someone could get in contact with one of the devs that worked on TTK & LOTB to see what they actually used.

Also everyone, you may post screenshots, videos, and articles relating to this topic. Screenshots would be niceas we could see what's going in the engine and how any 'build-on-top' games look.

[Jimmy]

Fox, on 20 October 2016 - 12:05 PM, said:

I once asked Beacham about it, and he said they used a modified Build editor to make the levels. But playing the game it's quite obvious they are using the Build engine, basically it's like the 3D final boss but applied to the whole game.

It uses tons of tricks that Duke3D did too.

[The Kins]

AP Dukefan94, on 20 October 2016 - 02:12 PM, said:

If any anyone has the physical manuals for DNTTK and DNLOTB you want to check them out. In TTK, itmentions Argounout and something about a demo was made or something. In LOTB, there is one part in it that it says something like "Thanks for the original TTK Team for securing down the code" or something close to that. I wish I had a way to upload photos of those pages from TTK & LOTB. If anyone can, it would be appreciated.

Looking at the credits to TTK on Mobygames, the Argonaut reference is to regarding an included "demo movie" of another PS1 game, Rogue Trip, where Argonaut 3D Graphics handled the pre-rendered FMV sequences. Nothing to do with TTK itself.

The second thing you mentioned, in the LOTB credits, is a Special Thanks credit for "Original TTK Team for the well documented code".

[AP Dukefan94]

That is the part that has me curious is what they meant by 'well documented code'?

Ok guys, its time to make an updated list:

Duke Nukem 1- ProGraphx
Duke Nukem 2- CCA/Possible Enhanced ProGraphx
Duke Nukem 3D- Build, SlaveDriver
Duke Nukem 64- Build
Duke Nukem Total Meltdown- Build
Duke Nukem Time To Kill- Possible N-Space 'in-house' engine
Duke Nukem Zero Hour- Build
Duke Nukem Land of the Babes- Possible N-Space 'in-house' engine
Duke Nukem Manhattan Project- Prism 3D
Duke Nukem Advanced- Southpaw
Duke Nukem Forever- Unreal

I left out Duke Nukem Critical Mass, since I could find out anything about its engine.

Also, some food for thought, here I will also bring tthe cancelled duke nukem games into the light:

Duke Nukem 4Ever- Build
Duke Nukem Endangered Species- Carnivores Engine
Duke Nukem D-Day- Unreal
Duke Nukem Forever 1997- Quake 1*
Duke Nukem Forever 1998- Quake 2*
Duke Nukem 3D Reloaded- Unreal 3
Duke Nukem Mass Destruction- Unreal 3

*DNF was not cancelled, but I thought it was significant and important to include its previous incarcerations as it is a perfect example of how the gaming industry was evolving at the time and illustrates that change from 'in-house' engine building and build 'on-top' of previous engines to leasing pre-built engines which is standard in today's industry. So yeah, one could say there is indeed more to the Duke than most think here from a technological view point and history of how the gaming industry had evolved.

[Hendricks266]

Is there any evidence that Duke Nukem 3D for the Mega Drive uses the Zero Tolerance engine like Wikipedia suggests? Screenshots of ZT don't look like Duke. I saw an interview with one of the original developers on YouTube who said the maze-drawing algorithm they used came from work on Phantasy Star, which is evidence against ZT.

AP Dukefan94, on 20 October 2016 - 09:33 PM, said:

Duke Nukem 3D- Build, SlaveDriver

I would say make a separate entry for "Duke Nukem 3D (Sega Saturn)" to list SlaveDriver, since you have separate entries for two of the other ports.

[necroslut]

AP Dukefan94, on 20 October 2016 - 09:33 PM, said:

Duke Nukem 4Ever- Build

I'm pretty sure DNF never used Build. The original Duke 4Ever however was eventually realeased (after being reworked) as Alien Rampage, you could possibly find similarities between that and other Apogee games.

Hendricks266, on 20 October 2016 - 10:28 PM, said:

Is there any evidence that Duke Nukem 3D for the Mega Drive uses the Zero Tolerance engine like Wikipedia suggests? I saw an interview with one of the original developers on YouTube who said the maze-drawing algorithm they used is derived from Phantasy Star of all things.

Indeed the developer claims it had nothing in common with Zero Tolerance, the game doesn't even look much like it. http://www.seganerds...sive-interview/

[Hendricks266]

necroslut, on 20 October 2016 - 10:28 PM, said:

Indeed the developer claims it had nothing in common with Zero Tolerance, the game doesn't even look much like it. http://www.seganerds...sive-interview/

Hmm, he denies the Phantasy Star connection too. Cool to know it was entirely in-house.

[Jimmy]

AP Dukefan94, on 20 October 2016 - 09:33 PM, said:

Duke Nukem 64- Build
Duke Nukem Zero Hour- Build

I recommend we refer to this as EuroBUILD (named after the developers, Eurocom) because if it is indeed BUILD, it's been built off of heavily, and not by Ken Silverman, making it kind of not BUILD in my opinion.

AP Dukefan94, on 20 October 2016 - 09:33 PM, said:

Duke Nukem Forever- Unreal

I'd say its also kind of disingenuous to call DNF's engine Unreal. Its effectively not.

AP Dukefan94, on 20 October 2016 - 09:33 PM, said:

Duke Nukem Endangered Species- Carnivores Engine

This engine is called AtmosFear.

necroslut, on 20 October 2016 - 10:28 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure DNF never used Build.

There's evidence to suggest that 3D Realms toyed with the BUILD engine and considered using BUILD. I think this was quickly abandoned though. I think the 1.7 patch was the benchmark, and when that didn't pan out they cancelled it and switched engines. I think they weren't sure what to do with DNF, they tested so much with so many different things. That game never had any direction.

[The Kins]

AP Dukefan94, on 20 October 2016 - 09:33 PM, said:

That is the part that has me curious is what they meant by 'well documented code'?

You know. Comments in the code explaining what everything does. Instructions to current/future developers on how to do and make stuff. Documentation.

[Tea Monster]

I've heard somewhere that the first experiments with DNF were done in BUILD.

[Micky C]

If that's remotely true, it'd most likely just be drawing up possible prototype levels in mapster that were never intended to be for the actual game. I remember reading that the devs knew that the build engine had a pretty short shelf life and that 3D engines were obviously the future pretty early on.

[AP Dukefan94]

Here is a revised and updated list:

Duke Nukem 1- ProGraphx
Duke Nukem 2- CCA/Enhanced ProGraphx
Duke Nukem 3D- Build
Duke Nukem 3D (Sega Saturn)- SlaveDriver
Duke Nukem 64- EuroBuild
Duke Nukem Total Meltdown- Build
Duke Nukem Time to Kill- n-Space 'in-house' engine
Duke Nukem Zero Hour- EuroBuild
Duke Nukem Land of the Babes- n-Space 'in-house' engine
Duke Nukem Manhattan Project- Prism 3D
Duke Nukem Advanced- Southpaw
Duke Nukem Forever- heavily modified Unreal 2/2.5

I still haven't found anything for Duke Nukem Critical Mass.

Cancelled Duke Games:
Duke Nukem 4Ever- Perhaps an enhanced ProGraphx or 3D Realms/Apogee 'in-house'
Duke Nukem Endangered Species- AtmosFear
Duke Nukem D-Day- Unreal
Duke Nukem 3D Reloaded- Unreal 3
Duke Nukem Mass Destruction- Unreal 3

DNF History ( though I should leave this out, since its well taken care of in other threads.)

[Jimmy]

Tea Monster, on 20 October 2016 - 11:48 PM, said:

I've heard somewhere that the first experiments with DNF were done in BUILD.

It's mostly conjecture. But there was supposed to be a 1.7 patch that was planned to add in voxels and basically make the game comparable to Shadow Warrior. I think this is where they were testing out for DNF but the idea was quickly abandoned. The Plutonium Pak/Atomic Edition was released in November of 1996, and was steadily developed from Duke 3D 1.3D's release in April of 1996. I think this 1.7 patch was probably experimentally developed somewhere between September and January. The official announcement of the Quake 2 engine DNF was in April of 1997, but they didn't even receive the engine code until November of 1997. All screenshots released prior to Nov 1997 were merely mock ups made in the original Quake engine. So from November 1996 to April 1997 they were trying to figure out what to do with DNF, and we know until November 1997 there was no *real* development of Duke Nukem Forever, because they were waiting for the Quake 2 engine.

[Hendricks266]

AP Dukefan94, on 21 October 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

Duke Nukem 4Ever- Perhaps an enhanced ProGraphx or 3D Realms/Apogee 'in-house'

I would be highly surprised if Alien Rampage was related to ProGraphx.

AP Dukefan94, on 21 October 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

Duke Nukem D-Day- Unreal

What evidence is there for this? If anything, I would assume it would build on LoTB, though that may not make sense if D-Day was going to be a PS2 game.