[Jimmy]

Micky C, on 28 November 2016 - 01:40 AM, said:

Wow seriously? I mean it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if it turned out Randy was lying about that man-hours thing, but do we have any sources to back up that they didn't add anyone else of note to work on the game?

Mr. Tibbs' post above lays it out quite well. Gearbox was functionally just a publisher.

Nancsi, on 28 November 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

Broussard might have high standards (I don't think so, he was more like a man, who was utterly clueless why one of the many games he produced became good), but the exec is not only there to have high standards. He is there to hire competent people to work with, and pay them among others. Many people even on this forum understand what works for the character, and what doesn't, but that doesn't makes someone a competent producer and game designer. He utterly failed with DNF, wrong decisions, restarts after restarts, false promises and arrogant statements in the media.

George Broussard is a great game designer but he's not a good project manager. That is where Scott Miller dropped the ball. He was the boss and should have had someone to reign George's creativity in. This was actually someone's job whose name I cant remember near the end of development near George's "cutting is shipping" comment, but as Trammel Ray Isaac said it was too little too late at that point.

Nancsi, on 28 November 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

And your comment about "what worked for the players" was an utter nonsense. What works for players? Making fake teasers and trailers (confirmed many times by insiders), restarting every time and abandoning the legacy of the game which accidentally worked? Many people said here that WT wasn't a fanservice. Then tell me, what was? What did 3DRealms and Broussard did in 12 years to show some respect to the players?

That's not what I mean at all. What I mean is that George Broussard knows what Duke Nukem fans are looking for, and it was his search for perfection that was his weakness. He knew our expectations and tried to meet them. Also fanservice is fucking cancer. I bet you watch anime too.

Nancsi, on 28 November 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

Also, the negative changes of the game in your statement is fundamentally wrong. DNF would have been a failure even if it was finished and released in 2009. Simply put, not attractive graphics (no, I'm not talking about the day or night Vegas, but the game design in general), overly linear gameplay, bad puzzles, bad jokes, and above all, it was behind it's time. Even if everything else was OK, DNF would have failed, because it had been released years later than it should have been. Gearbox didn't help, but this wasn't their game, no matter what you say.

This is baseless speculation on your part. I can show you clearly how much the game changed after 3DR closed it's doors. It was a better game. Everyone who played it agrees. DNF wasn't a linear game for example until they had to chop it up for consoles. And I never said it was Gearbox's game. You can't fucking read. I've said many times, it was Triptych's rogue development with Gearbox's approval that ruined the game. Gearbox had final say. They could have had the full 3DR team return to finish the game. They chose the cheaper option and we got a cheaper game.

Nancsi, on 28 November 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

And finally, your last statement is wrong. Let's assume the game was cancelled in 2009, 7 years ago. This forum and this community would be already dead by now, no new projects or hopes for a better game in the future. At least we got something, and some people might actually liked it. At least, now the franchise is not ridiculed by a planned vaporware, but is considered semi alive, and we are waiting for something new in December. Half full and half empty approach, you and your upvoters seems to be in the latter camp.

No.
You are fucking wrong.

I don't give a shit anymore, I typically try to stray away from flaming because I respect the moderating team.

But fuck you.

You're a fucking moron.

DNF did not keep this community alive.

I will not allow you to continue spewing your uninformed bullshit unmatched. You are fucking stupid.

The great work by TerminX, Hendricks, the EDuke32 team, Yatta and the marvelous rag tag team of modders that love Duke Nukem 3D are what have kept this community alive.

I hope you die in a dumpster fire you miserable little twat.

Nancsi, on 28 November 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

My knowledge about this project is limited.

Lets not beat around the bush. You know nothing.

Nancsi, on 28 November 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

This is exactly what you said: "it was re-written by two women who had no grasp of the character."

The two women might not had grasp of the character, but not because they are women. It's like saying, "it was rewritten by two jews who had no grasp etc etc". You need to grow up Blitz, it's still a long way to go.

I'd rather stay a child and keep my self respect if being an adult means being like you.

MusicallyInspired, on 28 November 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

He never said it was because they were women. Where are you getting that?

He's building strawman and red herring arguments now because he knows that we all know he's an idiot.

fuegerstef, on 28 November 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

Reading what he said about Duke's character made me think otherwise.

I wish I could find the quote, I know what you're talking about.

Nancsi, on 28 November 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

You don't have to say that directly. It was just the emphasis what was wrong. It's irrelevant if they were men or women. If those women were wifes or daughters or aunts or whatever of executives, that deserves an emphasis.

There was no emphasis. You're making shit up because you know you're wrong.

[Steve 64]

I don't know if anyone cares I ran into this file change for boss 5 on Steam that a guy did and it make the boss alot harder, I think it is great improvement to the boss
http://steamcommunit...41879457337474/

[Person of Color]

Jimmy Gnosis, on 28 November 2016 - 05:06 PM, said:

The great work by TerminX, Hendricks, the EDuke32 team, Yatta, the big league trolling by Person of Color and Weider, and the marvelous rag tag team of modders that love Duke Nukem 3D are what have kept this community alive.

Fixed.

[brullov]

HiPolyBash, on 28 November 2016 - 04:24 PM, said:

Wrongggggggggggggggggggg. Charlie Wiederhold and Frederik Schreiber have both confirmed that NONE of the teasers or trailers were fake, the majority of the content of every piece of media released has been playable with the few pieces not playable scripted for trailers as a target of what to expect which is normal practice in game development. Check yo facts then check yo privilege.

This is 100% true. All stuff they had was playable and none of the trailers/teasers were fake. I know that I am nobody here, just a guy who is possibly good with art or mapping, but I can confirm that info too.

Nancsi, on 28 November 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

And finally, your last statement is wrong. Let's assume the game was cancelled in 2009, 7 years ago. This forum and this community would be already dead by now, no new projects or hopes for a better game in the future. At least we got something, and some people might actually liked it. At least, now the franchise is not ridiculed by a planned vaporware, but is considered semi alive, and we are waiting for something new in December. Half full and half empty approach, you and your upvoters seems to be in the latter camp.

[TerminX]

Quote

And finally, your last statement is wrong. Let's assume the game was cancelled in 2009, 7 years ago. This forum and this community would be already dead by now, no new projects or hopes for a better game in the future. At least we got something, and some people might actually liked it. At least, now the franchise is not ridiculed by a planned vaporware, but is considered semi alive, and we are waiting for something new in December. Half full and half empty approach, you and your upvoters seems to be in the latter camp.

Haha, what? This forum only really started becoming popular in 2009 when I moved the Duke Nukem 3D community here. People were excited when DNF finally came out, but obviously interest in it totally died out and the forum went back to being centered around the game that most people actually consider to be good.

[NNC]

Meh, when did I deny the great work of the Eduke team and the modders Blitz? Thats a blatant upvote seeking for your insult filled post. I also didn't say the community is alive because of DNF.

I said if the game was cancelled 7 years ago, which might have resulted the IP to be abandoned, people would have lost interest gradually during this time.

In fact, I remember very well, what was the state of the community around 2007, it was in a much worse shape, than it is now.

Many people actually registered here around the DNF release. And no, everything that's worked on, and awaited by others deserves acclompishment. Even if its bad.

[HulkNukem]

It helps too that they basically locked out all the Duke talk on the 3DRealms forums and it had to get relegated to a single thread when Gearbox owned the rights, and then later on once Fred and co. took over they relaunched the forums and locked the entirety of the old one down.
*edit* Completely forgot that Gearbox also had a forum for DNF that Siegler himself also joined as well as other members from 3DRealms' forum, however they were incredibly banhappy and there was a lot of Borderlands fans without a clue who Duke Nukem was trying to make discussions

[HiPolyBash]

HulkNukem, on 28 November 2016 - 07:49 PM, said:

once Fred and co. took over they relaunched the forums and locked the entirety of the old one down.

Which was a bad move because their new forum design is complete shit and no one posts there

[Steve 64]

I don't even like the way it looks on the new 3DRealm forums to Gearboxess if that agood way in saying it.

[PikaCommando]

Jimmy Gnosis, on 28 November 2016 - 05:06 PM, said:

Also fanservice is fucking cancer. I bet you watch anime too.


This is baseless speculation on your part. I can show you clearly how much the game changed after 3DR closed it's doors. It was a better game. Everyone who played it agrees. DNF wasn't a linear game for example until they had to chop it up for consoles.

Just a little nitpick, but in case your definition of fanservice is huge bouncy tits, it's not. Whether it's cancer or not is up to you, but fanservice can mean any appeal to the fans of the material; for example, if Gearbox took the effort to make Dr. Proton the boss of Alien World Order, that can be considered fanservice as well.

Also, Fred says that DNF was always a linear game in the style of Half-Life. However, Fred have also said that the Vegas Zone in 2001 DNF works like some sort of hub with limited free roam, whereas Wieder said it was always linear. What do you think?

[MusicallyInspired]

HulkNukem, on 28 November 2016 - 07:49 PM, said:

It helps too that they basically locked out all the Duke talk on the 3DRealms forums and it had to get relegated to a single thread when Gearbox owned the rights, and then later on once Fred and co. took over they relaunched the forums and locked the entirety of the old one down.
*edit* Completely forgot that Gearbox also had a forum for DNF that Siegler himself also joined as well as other members from 3DRealms' forum, however they were incredibly banhappy and there was a lot of Borderlands fans without a clue who Duke Nukem was trying to make discussions

Tell me about it. I made one post at one point calling someone out somehow for a silly ignorant thing they said. I said something mildly derogatory like "don't be dumb" or something innocent like that. Then, I figured it was unfair and so I edited my post, because I'm a nice guy like that. Half an hour later I get an account strike (I believe it's 8 and your permabanned) for it. I messaged the admin asking what it was for and he said it was for that post. I almost flipped and told him that I literally edited that post 10 seconds after I made it and nobody could have seen it. All he told me was that it was reported before I edited it so the strike stands.

I never went back. They were always on edge and anybody no matter what kind of person you are is a potential threat and the minute you stray too close to the line they're on you. I've never had an account strike for anything in my life. They don't care what kind of person you are and they don't care about the context of anything. And I wasn't really trying to bash the guy. Just so incredibly rigid and inflexible. That's not how you moderate a community. That's how you rule with an iron fist.

And their forums ARE hideous. Why are all forums going that direction? It's so unwieldy and cumbersome! Telltale went that way too. And Bethesda.

[brullov]

PikaCommando, on 28 November 2016 - 10:00 PM, said:

Also, Fred says that DNF was always a linear game in the style of Half-Life. However, Fred have also said that the Vegas Zone in 2001 DNF works like some sort of hub with limited free roam, whereas Wieder said it was always linear. What do you think?

Fred is right.

[Jimmy]

Nancsi, on 28 November 2016 - 07:49 PM, said:

Meh, when did I deny the great work of the Eduke team and the modders Blitz? Thats a blatant upvote seeking for your insult filled post. I also didn't say the community is alive because of DNF.

I said if the game was cancelled 7 years ago, which might have resulted the IP to be abandoned, people would have lost interest gradually during this time.

In fact, I remember very well, what was the state of the community around 2007, it was in a much worse shape, than it is now.

Many people actually registered here around the DNF release. And no, everything that's worked on, and awaited by others deserves acclompishment. Even if its bad.

The community is more or less the same now. But what happened is consolidation. There were 5+ major Duke sites from 2000-2007. Now there's only one. We're all here now.

PikaCommando, on 28 November 2016 - 10:00 PM, said:

Just a little nitpick, but in case your definition of fanservice is huge bouncy tits, it's not. Whether it's cancer or not is up to you, but fanservice can mean any appeal to the fans of the material; for example, if Gearbox took the effort to make Dr. Proton the boss of Alien World Order, that can be considered fanservice as well.

Also, Fred says that DNF was always a linear game in the style of Half-Life. However, Fred have also said that the Vegas Zone in 2001 DNF works like some sort of hub with limited free roam, whereas Wieder said it was always linear. What do you think?

Fan service is cancer because when you give the fans what they want you run something into the ground. It's never a good thing to indulge in. DNF is the ultimate example of how fan service doesn't make a subpar product good.

Fred wasn't a developer. I wouldn't take anything he says that seriously. Wieder on the other hand knows what he's talking about and spent much of his life making that game great. But he left development in 2006. There were huge changes to the game after the 2006 exodus that he wouldn't really be able to comment on since he wasn't there. Again, go back and read Mr. Tibbs' post. It lays it out. Andrew Baker worked on the game before 3D Realms fell, and was one of two level designers to join back up with Triptych. IF ANYONE KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT THE LINEARITY OF DNF IT WOULD BE THE LEVEL DESIGNERS WHO WERE PAID TO CHOP THE GAME UP. And this is what Baker had to say: "That engine ran on consoles like a fat guy up Everest. Some levels were cut into up to four parts (why many seemed oddly short) and still level loading times were terrible. Dead ends, side routes, any excess gameplay space that could be cut, was cut. "

[OpenMaw]

Just tread carefully in what you invest in. That's all i'm gonna say.

[Micky C]

Wieder has said a few times that DNF was always relatively linear. I take this to mean compared to Duke 3D. I.e it'd still have overall linear gameplay, but it wouldn't be the 1D corridor it turned out to be in the end.

[Jimmy]

Again, Wieder wasn't involved in the 2007-2009 development cycle... which was a different game. His commentary is irrelevant to the game we actually got.

[PikaCommando]

We were talking about the UE1 version before it turned into the 2007 version though.

[Micky C]

Jimmy Gnosis, on 02 December 2016 - 02:09 AM, said:

Again, Wieder wasn't involved in the 2007-2009 development cycle... which was a different game. His commentary is irrelevant to the game we actually got.

Yeah but if he was referring to the pre-2006 version as relatively linear, then surely anything that followed must have been at least as linear.

[Jimmy]

You guys do know that they started over again in 2007, after Wieder (and others) left, right? Like I mentioned before, the project was then led by Brian Hook who was finally reigning in George's bullshit. But like many of the other developers have said, it was just too late at that point. Go back and look at the 2006 footage. Like 98% of that shit isn't even in the game.

[PikaCommando]

Yeah, we know. The 2006 version looks like a very advanced version of the 2001/2003 one (the Vegas Strip, for example), with final's stuff (weapons, enemies, talk show sequence) coming in. Even so, if Wieder said that the 2001 version was already linear like Half-Life, why would either the 2006 (the last one before "cutting is shipping") or 2007 version be even more than that?

[OpenMaw]

Jimmy Gnosis, on 02 December 2016 - 03:03 AM, said:

You guys do know that they started over again in 2007, after Wieder (and others) left, right? Like I mentioned before, the project was then led by Brian Hook who was finally reigning in George's bullshit. But like many of the other developers have said, it was just too late at that point. Go back and look at the 2006 footage. Like 98% of that shit isn't even in the game.

It's kinda goofy actually just how obsessed George became with Star Wars at that point. A lot of the stuff looks like it came right out of Clone Wars and shit. All those weird sterile lab rooms and that Death Star Detention Block looking place.

[Micky C]

PikaCommando, on 02 December 2016 - 03:19 AM, said:

Yeah, we know. The 2006 version looks like a very advanced version of the 2001/2003 one (the Vegas Strip, for example), with final's stuff (weapons, enemies, talk show sequence) coming in. Even so, if Wieder said that the 2001 version was already linear like Half-Life, why would either the 2006 (the last one before "cutting is shipping") or 2007 version be even more than that?

By more, you mean more non-linear right?

Jimmy Gnosis, on 02 December 2016 - 03:03 AM, said:

You guys do know that they started over again in 2007, after Wieder (and others) left, right? Like I mentioned before, the project was then led by Brian Hook who was finally reigning in George's bullshit. But like many of the other developers have said, it was just too late at that point. Go back and look at the 2006 footage. Like 98% of that shit isn't even in the game.

I'm working under the general assumption that the game became vaguely more linear over time, or at least never became less linear, as with a monotonic function.
I'm inferring this from two observations: Shooters generally started off incredibly maze-like in the early 1990's, through to being extremely linear to the peak of linearity around 2010ish. 2. George was obsessed with imitating the latest trends in gaming over the course of development.
Combine these together and it implies that the game wouldn't have become more linear, with more exploration etc, than it would have been from it's early days.

[PikaCommando]

Micky C, on 02 December 2016 - 03:29 AM, said:

By more, you mean more non-linear right?

Yeah, I meant more non-linear. If the 2001 version is already linear, I don't see a reason for them to make it more non-linear than before since the levels look like they're the same as the 2003 ones + more (but since they brought back almost the entire DN3D cast, I guess anything's possible). I think George has already moved out of the 90s fps non-linear maze mentality after Shadow Warrior since he's all into the big "cinematic shooters" of the time like Half-Life as it seemed like the "evolution of the genre" back then, and that phase probably grew stronger after the release of Halo. What they did after the 2007 restart is chopping an already linear game into even shorter and more linear, I think.

[Jimmy]

You're speculating where you don't need to. Andrew Baker who actually worked on the game we got says it was less linear in 2009 before Triptych:
"That engine ran on consoles like a fat guy up Everest. Some levels were cut into up to four parts (why many seemed oddly short) and still level loading times were terrible. Dead ends, side routes, any excess gameplay space that could be cut, was cut. "

I don't see why you insist on using Wieder's commentary on an old version of the game but dismiss commentary by the person who was most involved with level design after 2009. I'm not saying DNF had swiss cheese level design, what I'm saying is that it was less linear and wasn't basically a free-roam rail shooter. And if you really want to use Wieder's commentary, don't forget how the game was developed. The idea was that you'd build all of George's big set piece and cinematic bits, and then they would be strung together after all of those areas are done. Wieder literally spent all of his time at 3DR sitting around adding in interactivity and non-linear gameplay just because he could. The problem with that development technique is George kept having/stealing ideas. Every time George watched a movie or played a new game he had another big set piece idea. He played The Thing for PS2 and literally began to demand there was a section of the game in a snowy environment. You can't make this shit up.

[HiPolyBash]

Jimmy Gnosis, on 02 December 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

You're speculating where you don't need to. Andrew Baker who actually worked on the game we got says it was less linear in 2009 before Triptych:
"That engine ran on consoles like a fat guy up Everest. Some levels were cut into up to four parts (why many seemed oddly short) and still level loading times were terrible. Dead ends, side routes, any excess gameplay space that could be cut, was cut. "

Probably because the conversation is about Duke Nukem Forever around 2001 or 2002 and what your saying is completely irrelevant as it happened almost a decade later.

[Micky C]

Jimmy Gnosis, on 02 December 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

You're speculating where you don't need to. Andrew Baker who actually worked on the game we got says it was less linear in 2009 before Triptych:
"That engine ran on consoles like a fat guy up Everest. Some levels were cut into up to four parts (why many seemed oddly short) and still level loading times were terrible. Dead ends, side routes, any excess gameplay space that could be cut, was cut. "

I don't see why you insist on using Wieder's commentary on an old version of the game but dismiss commentary by the person who was most involved with level design after 2009. I'm not saying DNF had swiss cheese level design, what I'm saying is that it was less linear and wasn't basically a free-roam rail shooter. And if you really want to use Wieder's commentary, don't forget how the game was developed. The idea was that you'd build all of George's big set piece and cinematic bits, and then they would be strung together after all of those areas are done. Wieder literally spent all of his time at 3DR sitting around adding in interactivity and non-linear gameplay just because he could. The problem with that development technique is George kept having/stealing ideas. Every time George watched a movie or played a new game he had another big set piece idea. He played The Thing for PS2 and literally began to demand there was a section of the game in a snowy environment. You can't make this shit up.

I'm sure it was a lot less linear in 2009 than what we ended up with. I'm just saying I'd be surprised if the 2009 version was less linear than say the 1998 or 2001 versions.

[Jimmy]

The 1998 and 2001 versions were barely games. It was just a bunch of scripted events and set piece areas.

[HulkNukem]

1998 version is underrated; I really like the few set pieces that were shown, especially the western bit.

[HiPolyBash]

Jimmy Gnosis, on 02 December 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

The 1998 and 2001 versions were barely games. It was just a bunch of scripted events and set piece areas.

Yes, you sure would know for a fact. It's not like both Wiederhold and Frederik Schreiber who have both had access to the builds have said that there was a decent chunk of content. No way. That never happened. Nope.

[Fox]

Huh? Frederik specifically said there wasn't much more than it was shown in the trailers.