[NNC]

This thread is unbelievably negative.

[HiPolyBash]

Gearbox has disappointed so often that an announcement from them concerns me as it could simply end up with having shit sprayed into my eyes by a feral cat. Positivity is zero.

[NNC]

In the case of DNF, Gearbox essentially released a product that was made by 3DRealms. And while the game sucked a bit (or more like it didn't meet the sky high standards of expectations), the blame should be addressed at 3DRealms, as they didn't manage to pull it together within time.

In the case of WT, Gearbox did the greatest fanservice to this franchise ever (did 3DRealms create anything at the 10th anniversary?), yet everbody moan about little nitpicks, most of them are already fixed or - hopefully - they will be fixed soon. The price is not that bad now, only 4$ more than for Megaton, which did practically nothing notable to the original game (no new episode by the original devs, no true 3d emulation etc).

[Tea Monster]

I don't know about 'Greatest fanservice ever' . Getting the old team together was great, and I enjoyed the new episode. The problem is that a large chunk of the production (enemies and sound) was basically completely ignored to the point where it was released broken. I have no idea how they passed their MS and Sony certificates with those sound issues.

The point is that someone at Gearbox signed off on all this and thought it was great, and nobody above them either noticed or cared. If this is the attitude to Duke Nukem at Gearbox, then that attitude will be painted all over anything else that they do.

[----]

Nancsi, on 24 November 2016 - 11:29 PM, said:

In the case of DNF, Gearbox essentially released a product that was made by 3DRealms. And while the game sucked a bit (or more like it didn't meet the sky high standards of expectations), the blame should be addressed at 3DRealms, as they didn't manage to pull it together within time.

The latter is absolutely right. But ... GBX was satisfied with the DNF we got and thought it was good before it was released. And that's the worst part which makes me think they cannot do a good Duke game.

[Sledgehammer]

It's not like MS and Sony are good companies either, not to mention No Man's Sky.

Anyway, I don't get it why people call WT greatest fanservice ever either. If they really wanted to bring greatest fanservice, HTTKC would happen instead of what we've got with original mappers and Lee Jackson on board, plus they could release all the alpha/beta material as a bonus, that's what I call greatest fanservice ever, pretty much nothing would outdo such release and it could be the best rerelease ever, especially if they brought Chuck Jones too.

I still don't get it how they fucked up so badly, they met TX since January, even Nerve had enough balls to use Fox content. Gearbox had one job to unfuck themselves and become better company not only in eyes of Duke fans but also in eyes of the rest people. How bad you have to be at business to lose such opportunity?

[Micky C]

Nancsi, on 24 November 2016 - 11:29 PM, said:

In the case of DNF, Gearbox essentially released a product that was made by 3DRealms. And while the game sucked a bit (or more like it didn't meet the sky high standards of expectations), the blame should be addressed at 3DRealms, as they didn't manage to pull it together within time.

Gearbox had control over development for well over a year didn't they? A lot could be done in that time, especially if they threw as many resources at it as they claim (Didn't Randy actually say that Gearbox had put in more man-hours than 3DR by the time of release?)

Let's not forget the other dodgy aspects involved with marketing. Randy repeatedly lied about there being mod tools for the game. Yes I know, he didn't say "the game will have mod tools", but whenever he'd be asked about it, he'd hesitate then say something along the lines of "it's something we'd like to do". It's fairly obvious, especially in hindsight, that he never had the intention of releasing the tools. In all fairness the tools were probably a complete mess to the point of being near unusable for your average Joe, but in that case he should have just answered honestly.
There was also that mention of there being a secret level. However that supposed secret level conveniently found its way into the DLC.

[Daedolon]

Didn't GBX rewrite all the dialogue and look what we got. Also keep hearing that they're responsible for removal of all the secrets in the game.

[----]

AFAIK the dialogue for the main campaign was written by the wifes and girfriends of Tryptich/Triptych/Triptich/Tryptych (wIll try to find a source).

And Randy lied about there being secret levels in DNF. He stated as a fact and there was not one secret level.

[Micky C]

Was it actually Randy who said it? I thought it was the other guy?

Everyone (including me) is throwing all these statements around but unfortunately we don't back ourselves up with sources. Still it all happened a few years ago, and mostly in video interviews so they're relatively hard to find.

I definitely remember that DNF was written by two women though.

[----]

Micky C, on 25 November 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

I definitely remember that DNF was written by two women though.

They are listed in the IMDB. But I didn't find any connection to other people from Triptych (if they are really their wifes/GFs). That's why I didn't post any sources yet.

I assume (just a personal opinion that isn't backed up by anything but the warm feel a few Jägermeisters made in my guts) that the women wrote something they thought boys would like to see/hear in a Duke game but not understanding the chartacter at all.

THe writing got much better in TDWCM, imho. But that got written after the massive criticism the initial game recieved for the writing in the main campaign, I assume.

[Striker]

I'm mostly thinking it'll be Bulletstorm.

[Micky C]

fuegerstef, on 25 November 2016 - 01:50 PM, said:

I assume (just a personal opinion that isn't backed up by anything but the warm feel a few Jägermeisters made in my guts) that the women wrote something they thought boys would like to see/hear in a Duke game but not understanding the chartacter at all.

I agree completely. They just didn't get the character at all. It's like they read a 3 sentence summary and extrapolated from there. Besides, why would you get women to write about what they think men want to hear, when they can just get men who know what men want to hear?

This reminds me of a Dave Chappelle bit (slightly NSFW in terms of spoken content).




Edit: What's all this about Bulletstorm anyway, is it a re-release or a sequel?

[Mr. Tibbs]

Micky C, on 25 November 2016 - 02:33 PM, said:

Edit: What's all this about Bulletstorm anyway, is it a re-release or a sequel?

It hasn't been formally announced yet. People Can Fly left Epic and became independent again last year, retaining the Bulletstorm IP.

A reporter at E3 found a usb containing some glossy screenshots in a folder called 'Bulletstorm Remaster,' and a few months later the Brazilian ratings board revealed that it's going to be subtitled Full Clip and published by Gearbox.

As an aside, Gearbox opened a Quebec studio this time last year, which is "hiring game developers to join the Quebec City studio for its inaugural title growing to full AAA production capability through 2016." On their jobs page, they are looking for level designers with Unreal 4 experience. Still, it seems way too early to announce a new game, and given that Randy recently said Duke "is not good business," I think scaling back expectations wouldn't be a bad move.

[Jimmy]

Nancsi, on 24 November 2016 - 11:29 PM, said:

In the case of DNF, Gearbox essentially released a product that was made by 3DRealms. And while the game sucked a bit (or more like it didn't meet the sky high standards of expectations), the blame should be addressed at 3DRealms, as they didn't manage to pull it together within time.

This is 100% demonstrably incorrect. 3D Realms quit production in 2009. Then some of the developers went rogue, and continued to develop it without Scott Miller and George Broussard. Say what you will about either of these men, but without their involvement it is not 3D Realms at that point. And that is why they chose the name Triptych. Triptych and Gearbox released a very different game than 3D Realms was planning to release, and I will say that while George Broussard may have never managed the game to a point where it would be released, he also never would have allowed what was released to go gold. It was not a Duke Nukem game, and it was re-written by two women who had no grasp of the character. Duke Nukem Forever was a mangled mess because of Triptych's rogue development where they clearly chopped the game up and Gearbox Software signed off on it. It was not the game 3D Realms intended to release. DEMONSTRABLY SO. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong and will be forever wrong.

Nancsi, on 24 November 2016 - 11:29 PM, said:

In the case of WT, Gearbox did the greatest fanservice to this franchise ever (did 3DRealms create anything at the 10th anniversary?), yet everbody moan about little nitpicks, most of them are already fixed or - hopefully - they will be fixed soon. The price is not that bad now, only 4$ more than for Megaton, which did practically nothing notable to the original game (no new episode by the original devs, no true 3d emulation etc).

During this "greatest fanservice" Gearbox also halted a much better release of the game by the EDuke32 team.

[HiPolyBash]

Duke Nukem Forever was never finished. Gearbox and Triptych released a polished alpha that had been fucked with more than Frankensteins monster with the worlds shittiest narrative written around it. This is why Gearbox and Pitchford saying over and over again that they saved Duke Nukem and delivered 3D Realms vision is bullshit because they really didn't. There are accounts from several different developers discussing how they tore apart the most finished parts of an alpha build, wrote around it, polished and released it and in addition to this it doesn't resemble 3D Realms vision as well as the DLC being a large segment of the game that was removed from the original release and sold as DLC with yet another terrible narrative written around it.

If 3D Realms had in fact reached Gold in April of 2010 I honestly believe we would have gotten a much better game supported by mod tools, with a better narrative, overly better as a game and the developers would have been more receptive to the pre-release criticism to avoid the backlash that Duke Forever was given prior to release and in reviews but it still would have disappointed in several different areas.

Duke Nukem Forever was never going to be a great game after the development it went through and the shift towards console gaming influencing the development of the game but it would have been a lot better had 3D Realms been able to complete it and I honestly believe that.

[PikaCommando]

HiPolyBash, on 26 November 2016 - 07:52 PM, said:

There are accounts from several different developers discussing how they tore apart the most finished parts of an alpha build, wrote around it, polished and released it and in addition to this it doesn't resemble 3D Realms vision as well as the DLC being a large segment of the game that was removed from the original release and sold as DLC with yet another terrible narrative written around it.

Really? Where?

I thought the Area 51 + Space sections in the DLC was never meant to be a part of the final game anymore since 2007 when Broussard declared "Cutting is shipping" (at least that's what Fred says) and I don't think the 2009 trailer shows any section from the now-DLC areas. As for the narrative, according the leaked plot diagram in 2009, it looks like it's basically the final's but with the DLC in it and arranged differently (imo playing as Bombshell is a bad idea, it'd be like the Arbiter levels in Halo 2).

Also, it's not as if Triptych had the chance at the time. They were a small team team and they have admitted that they were just trying to ship what has already been made just to get DNF off the vaporware list at last.

Feel free to prove me wrong with leaked builds, though.

[Jimmy]

The DLC is an amalgam of material that was cut in 2007 and things Triptych cut from 2009 DNF. Nothing makes sense because the entire game is a Frankensteining of random materials. It's very clear that the story was written around the set-pieces that were finished. It's the choppiest game I've ever played.

[HulkNukem]

I like when Gearbox and I believe Broussard himself said the DLC was entirely new content made after the game was finished which is completely false because there was plenty of leaked screenshots after 3DRealms originally shutdown production of some of the DLC content.

[Mr. Tibbs]

GeorgeB on DNF's DLC:

Mirrors what Triptych's Andrew Baker said over at Shacknews.

Quote

To be honest the writing was done nearly for free (bad decision) by two women (yup, women, so the misogyny thing is just baffling) who had never written anything or anything like it before (one a technical writer right out of college IIRC, the other a relative of someone on the team who's never written anything published at all before AFAIK). There was no story or written dialog or fucking anything like a cohesive level progression to the game when 3DR shut down. All that was all done while the game was forcibly assembled from misc parts, over a few months between the shutdown and when GBX picked up the project.

One hope I had for the project moving to GBX was that they'd trash the writing, the recorded dialog, and give a decent professional doing-over story-wise - but they didn't want to spend the money or time on that, and thought what existed worked, apparently.

I'm convinced now that giant swaths of people who were making decisions were or are tone-deaf to what makes media work, let alone what would be needed for a game character like Duke; I know with Borderlands, it's a tiny group of 2-3 core guys who are creative directors on it and they have the power and freedom to hire actual popular, professional and proven funny people like Anthony Burch, trash and rework and polish the story elements, and were willing to make story and tone a central element of the game, not an afterthought or some insultingly bargain basement amateur project.

Quote

Yeah to be honest I don't think it's the norm right now. From what I know, GBX paid Triptych very little to complete DNF, and we as employees were told by Triptych that we'd get some sort of payout even if the game didn't do that well, because we were saving GBX/2K so much money having presented them with a near finished project and then working for peanuts to ship it. We were told that it didn't even need to sell over a million to make money, etc etc. Then it came out, and from what we could tell it easily sold over 1mil between the three platforms (like .3mil PC, .75mil Xbox and 7.mil or something like that on PS3).

Somehow this didn't happen, of course. We suddenly were told by Triptrych that 2K/GBX said it didn't recoup expenses and wouldn't be paying them any royalties, so there was not going be trickle down to us, obviously; seemed like the accounting changed magically, like some sort of fucking music industry deal you hear about. Well, at least we subsequently got giant raises to complete the DNF DLC and the two BL2 DLCs. Live and learn. But needless to say there's a few ex-Triptytch employees watching this closely, popcorn in hand. If they owe 3DR money, they owe Triptych money, I think, and therefore possibly me, money.

Levels were cut to pieces because their modified engine performed poorly on the consoles:

Quote

That engine ran on consoles like a fat guy up Everest. Some levels were cut into up to four parts (why many seemed oddly short) and still level loading times were terrible. Dead ends, side routes, any excess gameplay space that could be cut, was cut.

When Brian Hook joined 3D Realms in February 2008, it "was health packs and 10 guns"

Quote

What I'm curious about is: before you guys got laid off, were the health regeneration and two-weapons limit implemented in the game?

"Yes. And yes, there was much argument and controversy over it, and in the end I don't think it was possible that there was a 'right' decision. People were going to argue that it was either "trying too hard to be modern" or they'd argue that it was "too old fashioned and way behind the times", so in the end I understand the decision to go to something more modern feeling since that's what today's players would understand. "

Quote

Based on people's comments here, my guess is that DNF turned out exactly how I thought it would given the way development wrapped up. My personal opinion is that the core game wasn't even close to shippable state when 3DR shut down the team, and that any resources GBX put into it should have been put into single player on the PC and aim for a great PC-only release as opposed to what we're seeing now on 3 platforms.

But due to the crazy relationships between TTWO, GBX, 3DR, and Triptych the above was likely never even an option.

Again, based solely on comments from people here, I'd say that what you see is a distorted view of what we were aiming for before the shut down. Major props to Triptych for managing to pull together what they did, but obviously with like 10 guys they weren't going to have the time/resources to really do anything but stitch together what already existed.

DNF is definitely a tough one to 'assign blame' to, because there are elements in the final version that were developed by people 10 years ago, and there are elements of it that were done by people 6 months ago. It's a patchwork of assets and code that span a decade, and the original vision keeper was not involved with the process at all AFAIK for the past year.

DNF was like a house. At one point, it was a set of blueprints and dreams, and then people started building it. And then for whatever reasons what was being built wasn't matching what the owners expected, so they tore parts of it down and started again. Repeat this over a decade.

The last couple teams then inherit a house that is done in bits and pieces, but it's too late to really start over, you have to make something that passes code and that can be sold because the builders are running out of money and time. The final team is told "Do what you can to make this pass building code, but you have no budget and no people and no time". They did the best they could given those constraints and that starting point.

[NNC]

Jimmy Gnosis, on 26 November 2016 - 07:37 PM, said:

This is 100% demonstrably incorrect. 3D Realms quit production in 2009. Then some of the developers went rogue, and continued to develop it without Scott Miller and George Broussard. Say what you will about either of these men, but without their involvement it is not 3D Realms at that point. And that is why they chose the name Triptych. Triptych and Gearbox released a very different game than 3D Realms was planning to release, and I will say that while George Broussard may have never managed the game to a point where it would be released, he also never would have allowed what was released to go gold. It was not a Duke Nukem game, and it was re-written by two women who had no grasp of the character. Duke Nukem Forever was a mangled mess because of Triptych's rogue development where they clearly chopped the game up and Gearbox Software signed off on it. It was not the game 3D Realms intended to release. DEMONSTRABLY SO. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong and will be forever wrong.


During this "greatest fanservice" Gearbox also halted a much better release of the game by the EDuke32 team.

The whole Duke legacy belongs to people like Todd Replogle, Allen Blum, Richard Gray, Charlie Wiederhold, Chuck Jones etc. Broussard and Miller were just corporate men, who did nothing on the game but supervising and making money. So saying that 3DR stopped the development in the 10th month of the year means nothing. It's 3DR work for most part. Certainly Gearbox didn't add anything noteworthy to this game except for some arrogant comments by Pitchford. That didn't help, but let's not pretend it's not the work of people who had a job on it at 3DR. Besides, the game at least was released. If the IP still belongs to 3DR, we would still say release is coming soon.

The greatest fanservice as you got a new episode from original mappers and composer, and while there were/are flaws in it, most of them had been fixed already or planned in the near future. Even the price is not that steep now. Also the HTKKC was a planned Android port, as far as the screens looked, it wouldn't have the ambient occlusion, also I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have the new episode.

Also, it's the greatest fanservice for this franchise, because this is the first proper fanservice for it since The Birth episode. Yea, LameDuke was somewhat interesting, but it was a too early state of the game, aside from beta-Derelict, and some multi elevators there is nothing really interesting there.

Quote

and it was re-written by two women

Yea, let's emphasize on the real word of the sentence. WOMEN. Since women worked on it, it must suck.

[Micky C]

Thanks Mr Tibbs for compiling those comments. Is there some kind of repository of all this information? The history is actually quite interesting.

Jimmy Gnosis, on 26 November 2016 - 07:37 PM, said:

This is 100% demonstrably incorrect. 3D Realms quit production in 2009. Then some of the developers went rogue, and continued to develop it without Scott Miller and George Broussard. Say what you will about either of these men, but without their involvement it is not 3D Realms at that point. And that is why they chose the name Triptych. Triptych and Gearbox released a very different game than 3D Realms was planning to release, and I will say that while George Broussard may have never managed the game to a point where it would be released, he also never would have allowed what was released to go gold. It was not a Duke Nukem game, and it was re-written by two women who had no grasp of the character. Duke Nukem Forever was a mangled mess because of Triptych's rogue development where they clearly chopped the game up and Gearbox Software signed off on it. It was not the game 3D Realms intended to release. DEMONSTRABLY SO. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong and will be forever wrong.


During this "greatest fanservice" Gearbox also halted a much better release of the game by the EDuke32 team.

Let's also not forget that (IIRC) it was Triptych who decided to ultimately set Vegas during the day time, which had a massive detrimental on the tone, atmosphere, and visuals of that component of the game.

[PikaCommando]

Micky C, on 27 November 2016 - 03:57 AM, said:

Thanks Mr Tibbs for compiling those comments. Is there some kind of repository of all this information? The history is actually quite interesting.





Let's also not forget that (IIRC) it was Triptych who decided to ultimately set Vegas during the day time, which had a massive detrimental on the tone, atmosphere, and visuals of that component of the game.

iirc the demo reels and the trailers in 2009 when 3DR disbanded already had Vegas in daytime (more or less the same skybox as final). I think it had something to do with the dynamic lighting not working as well in outdoors night environment, but adding dynamic lighting to the engine just because Doom 3 did it is the real bad decision here. Anyone who wants to set their game in Vegas should be sane enough to know that Vegas is only Vegas at night.

[Micky C]

Hmm maybe you're right. I just remember it being really late in development.

IIRC (and I'm more confident about this), the reason was because Vegas at night had already been done in UE3 in games like Tom Clancy's Vegas and Vegas 2, and they wanted to set it apart. Either the devs or one of the PR guys described it as like "the morning after a terrible storm" or something along those lines. I'm fairly confident that they could have easily done most of the lighting with lightmaps, which would have had a detrimental impact on performance.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Nancsi, on 27 November 2016 - 03:20 AM, said:

Yea, let's emphasize on the real word of the sentence. WOMEN. Since women worked on it, it must suck.

Context: When DNF came out, if you only listened to the critical reception, you would think that 3DR's main purpose was to communicate misogyny. What Baker reveals is that 3DR wasn't involved in creating the final story of the game. Some temp work by inexperienced writers, which maybe was not the best choice for a sequel people had been waiting for since 1996, was never replaced once the publisher was back on board and Gearbox bought the game.

This refutes that Gearbox put in tons of care to ship '3D Realms' game. That is simply not true.

[Jimmy]

Nancsi, on 27 November 2016 - 03:20 AM, said:

The whole Duke legacy belongs to people like Todd Replogle, Allen Blum, Richard Gray, Charlie Wiederhold, Chuck Jones etc. Broussard and Miller were just corporate men, who did nothing on the game but supervising and making money.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Scott Miller did not have much involvement in development but to deny George Broussard's influence is exactly why no one will ever get a Duke Nukem game right again. No matter your opinion of him, Broussard has always understood what worked for the character and what worked for the players who were looking for a Duke Nukem game. All of the biggest negative changes occurred to the game after it was taken away from George. DNF's history is a story of standards. Broussard's DNF is what happens when standards are too high. Gearbox's DNF is what happens when standards are too low. George's management style may have never brought the game to completion but it also would have never shipped the game we got. That is fact.

Nancsi, on 27 November 2016 - 03:20 AM, said:

So saying that 3DR stopped the development in the 10th month of the year means nothing. It's 3DR work for most part. Certainly Gearbox didn't add anything noteworthy to this game except for some arrogant comments by Pitchford. That didn't help, but let's not pretend it's not the work of people who had a job on it at 3DR. Besides, the game at least was released. If the IP still belongs to 3DR, we would still say release is coming soon.

Because clearly you did not follow the history of the DNF 2009 Fallout closely. The game was like 60% done when 3DR asked for more money, publishers refused and they had to close their doors. When Triptych took over they cobbled together what they could from that 60% to make a "complete" game. Gearbox had no hand in development other than paying them peanuts. However they signed off on the "final" version of the game. Gearbox could have paid them to actually finish the game properly but they just had them wrap it up. I'd rather have no DNF than this franchise-killing turd.

Nancsi, on 27 November 2016 - 03:20 AM, said:

Also the HTKKC was a planned Android port, as far as the screens looked, it wouldn't have the ambient occlusion, also I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have the new episode.

I know what HTTKC was. I was a team member. I have played it. You don't know what you're talking about.

Nancsi, on 27 November 2016 - 03:20 AM, said:

Also, it's the greatest fanservice for this franchise, because this is the first proper fanservice for it since The Birth episode. Yea, LameDuke was somewhat interesting, but it was a too early state of the game, aside from beta-Derelict, and some multi elevators there is nothing really interesting there.

That's your opinion and I don't care about it.

Nancsi, on 27 November 2016 - 03:20 AM, said:

Yea, let's emphasize on the real word of the sentence. WOMEN. Since women worked on it, it must suck.

Nice projection. That's not what I said at all. They were women, what else should I refer to them as?

You're an arrogant dimwit Nancsi. You don't know shit.

[----]

Jimmy Gnosis, on 27 November 2016 - 11:43 AM, said:

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Scott Miller did not have much involvement in development but to deny George Broussard's influence is exactly why no one will ever get a Duke Nukem game right again. No matter your opinion of him, Broussard has always understood what worked for the character and what worked for the players who were looking for a Duke Nukem game.

This. It is often underestimated what the creative head behind a product achieves.

[Jimmy]

It achieves consistency and quality. DNF is a mangled mess because shipping was the chief goal, not consistency or quality.

Also the Vegas daytime change occurred after Triptych took over. Just go watch the 2009 leaks, you can see the Battlelord battle at least still took place at night.

[HulkNukem]

Micky C, on 27 November 2016 - 04:19 AM, said:

IIRC (and I'm more confident about this), the reason was because Vegas at night had already been done in UE3 in games like Tom Clancy's Vegas and Vegas 2, and they wanted to set it apart. Either the devs or one of the PR guys described it as like "the morning after a terrible storm" or something along those lines. I'm fairly confident that they could have easily done most of the lighting with lightmaps, which would have had a detrimental impact on performance.

That was the excuse they gave that nighttime Vegas is overdone in media, however that is when Vegas is at it's absolute best, so the engine not handling the lighting is the more likely reason.
They mentioned it being overdone before the game came out and the engine not being able to handle it was mentioned sometime after IIRC

If they truly thought it was overdone, they could've had the battle through the strip at night and then when you are going up to the Duke Burger/Stratosphere then set it at day so you can see the whole daytime skybox.

[brullov]

Jimmy Gnosis, on 27 November 2016 - 11:43 AM, said:

I know what HTTKC was. I was a team member. I have played it. You don't know what you're talking about.

I wish I could play HTTKC on my phone, it's sad that I had no opportunity even to see how it works.