[oasiz]

Man there are so many different versions of this game out there..
Quite a bit of history too.

Interesting how similar the apogee/3dr iterations are to the final, art is very similar and we are talking about a 2 year difference.
Must have been in some sort of a development limbo at some point.

No real engine differences either, using "tekwar" feature set. Which was probably what 3DR started to license when they considered the engine mature enough.

Digging a bit in to all the games with 3DR history, every game seems to have a bit of it's own effect paradigm and workarounds.
SW, blood, PS/EX, D3D. All different, I find it kind of interesting. Of course end result is bound to be different at some point but this is still stuff that kind of needs to be decided early on.

[MetHy]

I don't know about Blood, but Exhumed, DN3D and SW all work more or less on a similar system to be honest. Low and high tags for sectors and sprites.

Considering Exhumed was developed by Lobotomy, that modability was not a purpose, and that coming up with groundbreaking awesome effects was not a priority, it's no surprise the effects are a little different and that the system is much simpler (it's kinda like Doom where you use a tag for an effect, and it comes with pre-set speed and sound).

Exhumed is like the base, and then with DN3D and SW things needed to become more and more complicated, so they added more effects and more variables.

[deuxsonic]

Blood mentions using an enhanced build map format. Since Monolith was doing reverse-engineering to replace parts of the engine with their own stuff, could Blood be the most advanced of the Build-engine games?

[MetHy]

I've started replaying the PS1 version of the game. I never did beat it, only played a couple of hours or so, a little past the first boss iirc.

The PS1 version is far from smooth at all times, is the Saturn version better in that regard?

There are a lot of things I like, but there are also a lot of things I think were simply done better in the PC version.

Most things combat related for instance, the Anubis zombies act weird when they get hit, and then they just explode when they die (even from bullets) which is totally weird. The blue scorpions are just funny, the new birds don't really fit imo. Then there is the fact the mini Wasps, kind of a waste what they did of them, and the fact that it makes a lot of very small enemies (wasps, scorpions, birds) plus in the first few levels I must have seen like 4 or 5 Anubis zombies; 95% enemies were the small ones.

Their 3D engine can do slopes but they barely use it. I'm also disappointed not to see any flickering lights, which would have been nice with their dynamic lights, whereas flickering and fading lights are all over the Build version.
The dynamic lights emitted by enemies energy balls look wonderful though. Much better than that silly sector based "dynamic" light of the Build version.

Then this silly question struck me: why didn't they use their 3D engine for the PC version? Anyone knows? I'd love to see more old interviews about the game.

I guess they were kinda forced by 3DRealms to begin with to use Build, but once they separated, why not use their 3D engine for all versions? I'm not complaining though, since we got 2 games and I love the Build one, I'm just wondering since at the time it seemed like the logical thing to do. It's not like a long period of time separates both release.

[MetHy]

Well, I beat the Playstation version. Then I played an beat the Saturn version.

Guys both version are totally awesome, although I still think the PC one is the best, I love the whole series. I think what I like best in the console versions is the last few levels, when you have the last 2 weapons and the ability to fly, it really feels like you've acquired the powers of the Gods, as promessed by Ramses, and that really sets it apart from other FPS of the time.

I think the Saturn version is MILES ahead of the PS one. The PS one may have better looking graphics, although I'm not even too sure of that since I played it with ePSXe and advanced video plugins, and may have a couple of things it did better here and there. Everything else, Saturn versions wins.
The most important, is that everything combat related feels awesome on Saturn, guns are incredibility satisfying to use both due to better sounds and to better enemy reactions, only Magmantis are better on Playstation because their hit detection is weird on Saturn. Then there is the fact that the Saturn version is smooth at all times, even when you bring the automap, while in the PS version it tends to lag quite often, and you can forget about moving while using the automap at the same time. Also, the Saturn version has bomb jumping, rocket jumping with the grenade bomb, and it's tons of fun to use (you can sequence break a LOT though). Then the Saturn version has much better lighting, some items even providing flickering lights, and also has the power-ups (invisibility, increased weapon power).

There are many other differences, so I won't go over them all, but overall for me Saturn wins by a huge margin.
Both versions are totally worth playing though, especially considering that each version has 2 exclusive levels (2 maps replaced by new ones in the PS1 version) + half of 2 other levels are completely different as well, + many other level design differences in every single level, which go from architecture, to items, keys, and enemy placements.

Some screenshots of the Saturn version. Check out that lighting it's amazing.













It's kind of a shame so many people these days go for the EX version and don't have the curiosity to check the actual games instead. Checking the EX version for only a few minutes, everything gameplay related (player movement, weapon and enemy behaviours, etc) were completely off, and that was compared to the PS1 version, which gameplay-wise was worse than the Saturn version to begin with. A lot was lost in gameplay in the PS1 version, and even more in EX....

[deuxsonic]

Kaiser doesn't do ports, he basically does remakes by eye. EX never got much of a chance to get honed in on where the actual PS1 game is because someone hit him with a C&D. There's a beta 1.02 that contains some movement fixes that he never got to share if you want it, but I'm sure it's still not going to play like the original.

[MusicallyInspired]

I keep confusing this game with Witchaven. I remember having an old shareware CD with this game on it. I could never get it to work right, though. It was FPS right? Did it also use the Build engine?

[Hendricks266]

MetHy, on 11 August 2016 - 12:06 PM, said:

It's kind of a shame so many people these days go for the EX version and don't have the curiosity to check the actual games instead. Checking the EX version for only a few minutes, everything gameplay related (player movement, weapon and enemy behaviours, etc) were completely off, and that was compared to the PS1 version, which gameplay-wise was worse than the Saturn version to begin with. A lot was lost in gameplay in the PS1 version, and even more in EX....

This.

[MetHy]

MusicallyInspired, on 11 August 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:

I keep confusing this game with Witchaven. I remember having an old shareware CD with this game on it. I could never get it to work right, though. It was FPS right? Did it also use the Build engine?

PC version is a complete different game than what I was just talking about, with some of the same assets and a similar story. Yes it runs under Build.

[MrFlibble]

MusicallyInspired, on 11 August 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:

I keep confusing this game with Witchaven. I remember having an old shareware CD with this game on it. I could never get it to work right, though. It was FPS right? Did it also use the Build engine?

Powerslave runs well in DOSBox and there's several demo versions if you want to try it out.

[MetHy]

I've been replaying every level of the Saturn version trying to find the hidden Team Doll locations. They're crazy well hidden, I must have replayed 10 levels and only found 5 so far. Although I found the location of the one in map Selkis Path, but apparently you need to be able to fly upward to get it, meaning that you already need to have 14 dolls...

Well that's what I thought until I found out that using the Cobra Staff shots against a wall while floating knocks you back, and if you're looking down, that means you can go further up! What gave me the idea was being shot by a Mummy's red cobra while floating.
I don't know if it's a famous trick or not, but just like bomb jumping, it got taken out of the PS1 version. I always heard about bomb jumping, but not of the Cobra Staff trick, which can be very useful when bomb jumping isn't enough (which can happen).

I made a video, cobra staff stuff at 1min


Well I got 2 more dolls thanks to this cobra trick. Who needs 14 dolls to fly upwards anymore?!

[HulkNukem]

The M-60 Machine Gun is such a god damn beast of a gun, I really REALLY like it in this game, no matter the version.
That is all.

[MetHy]

Yeah, it's the most reliable weapon, in any version. It works well against everything.

When you think of it it's kind of a shame the PC version has less weapons, and also less different textures and themes, even though it came out months after the Saturn version. Would be nice to be able to mod the weapons in, but with no con coding and no source code, it would probably be a hell of a task.

[deuxsonic]

Playing the PS1 version, I never use the Ring of Ra. It uses ammo quickly and the little fireballs go everywhere and it feels like I'm wasting ammo when a lot of that doesn't hit what I want. It wouldn't bother me for that weapon to be missing.

[MetHy]

That weapon is very useful in tight indoor environments and at close range.

[deuxsonic]

So is the M-60 and that doesn't miss.

[MetHy]

Like I said earlier, I was hunting down the hidden Team-Dolls in the Saturn version. I found about half of them legit, until I gave up. That half I found was hidden in a good way, they were hard to find but there was either a clue of some sort, or it just "made sense" once you found it... However, I'm glad I gave up on the rest and looked up a FAQ. The other half are nearly impossible to find by yourself, it's really full of shit like asking the player to bomb every meter square of wall, ceiling and floor in the entire game in the hope to find a hidden path; and even then it wouldn't be enough. Perhaps it's not as bad in the PS1 version.

Anyway that unlocked both Lobo-Flight mode and the Death Tank mini game, and I have to say that both seem extremely fun to play with. Too bad Death Tank is multiplayer and I don't known anyone who'd be interested to play it with me (maybe via emulator online, if Saturn emulators even allow online play which I doubt....)





Also out of curiosity I checked the Saturn PAL version of the game for a few mins and I spotted a texture related improvement in the 2nd map.

NTSC :


PAL :


So I really wonder what else they improved in the PAL version. In any case it seems to be a solid PAL release: the game runs at the normal speed, although some things like weapon firing rate may be slightly slower. Sadly there doesn't seem to be an accurate way to play the PAL version via emulators so I ordered it to play on my actual Saturn. Maybe then I'll be able to see if it has other, more important, improvements.

Yes, my autism for Powerslave/Exhumed has picked.

[leilei]

not even with the recent Mednafen Saturn emulator which is highly regarded for accuracy already?

rypecha is an emulation goddess

[MetHy]

Yeah, not even with that because it doesn't support PAL games yet.

Although I'm interested in that emulator but I've never used mednafen before, I'll see if I can set it up later.

[MetHy]

So I've received the PAL Saturn version of the game and it's great, don't get prejudices because it's PAL, Lobotomoy went through some efforts to make it play at the normal speed.

So I've recorded a playthrough of that version, using as much sequence breaking and shortcuts as possible using the Amun Bomb and Cobra Staff weapons, and have uploaded it on youtube

Sequence breaking starts at 31min45s onwards, up until that point it's regular play.

I'm thinking of doing another version of the video with commentary, some of the stuff would need explanation for people who don't know the game too well, but I've never done something like that so I'm not sure.

Edit : Sorry guys I'm hiding that video for now because I'm working on making a better one.

[MetHy]

Me again, I know not many people care about this game but I also know I'm not the only one here so I'll keep posting.

I have re-allowed access to the video I talked about in the previous post, which I had hidden because upon new discoveries I was working on a speedrun.

That speedrun is now live, and awaiting authorization on speedrun.com. I have beaten the game in 31m22s



I know I can do better than this run but for now I'm satisfied with it. I'll try to go under the 30min bar though.

I'm using several tricks, some of which only work with the Saturn version, and some of which may only work in the PAL version.
About that I need to check to be sure but I can't find the Jap version, called Seireki 1999: Pharaoh No Fukkatsu, for download ANYWHERE and it costs way too much. From the screenshots and video I've seen that JAP version seems to have many differences, for instance different item placement, more ammo for the Amun Bomb and the Cobra Staff. I'd love to get my hands on it.

In other news I also found this blog with many interesting links.

The interviews linked from that page have all the answers to the questions I was asking myself. Why were the console versions completely different, how comes you can only sequence break in the Saturn version and why did they leave it in if they knew about it, why is the PS1 version so different, why the different game names depending on the region etc etc it's all in there so check it out if you're interested. There is also some neat stuff about the cancelled Powerslave 2.

[deuxsonic]

Why is every single release of this game different? I can't think of any other game I've played where literally every release has a bunch of visible changes to it like this. Nowadays developers seem to always want parity between all of their releases but this is as far as you can go in the other direction.

[MetHy]

It's all in the interviews.

First version was the Build DOS version. When 3DRealms gave up on Lobotomy, they found another publisher, who was ok for console releases too.

At first they wanted to port the PC version to console, turns out that it's not that simple and would have made it a lot worse, as "proven" by the framerate of games like DN3D on PS1 and Doom on Saturn, at the time it was actually easier to have a full 3D game on console, thanks to their dedicated hardware, whereas it's easier to have something like Build on PC due to the extra CPU power.

About the PS1 version being different, it was programmed by another person and apparently that started before the Saturn version was released.
About the different levels, according to Ezra it's because the designers never stopped improving them. That explains the differences in the same levels, but not why some levels have completely different.
However Sony also demanded that at least ONE thing was different in the PS1 version, hence the red spider/crabs turned into blue scorpions. This could also explain the different levels.

As for why there is no bomb jump / cobra trick in the PS1 version, it seems quite logical. They only discovered about that by accident a couple of weeks before deadline. Instead of fixing it, they thought it was really cool, and added super secrets (the team dolls) some of which would require the bomb jump. This was done very quickly under a week, which may explain why some team dolls are hidden in insane ways.
The lack of time may explain why they left it in, why the sequence breaking is possible despite them knowing about it.

For the PS1 version they still had a lot of time so they removed it, or perhaps it wasn't there to begin with, remember, it was programmed by another person, but in any case they didn't include it. That lead to a different way of handling Team Dolls and the means to reach them.

Finally, as for regional differences, for some differences (like small level design improvment) the same reason as above can be given "the designers never stopped improving the levels". Then, they claimed to lack time for the PAL version, which is why Death Tank is not in it, and which may also explain why there are two (obvious) glitches in the PAL version. The Jap version has more ammo for cobra staff and amun bomb, which may be because Japs often tend to have easier versions, or also because they thought that part needed rebalancing; after all in the PS1 version, which came out later, you can carry even MORE ammo.

[deuxsonic]

It's nice that they kept improving things. Today with how games receive patches, it would be perfect, as you could take advantage of the changes. Unfortunately since development was fragmented by platform, the game went by 3 different names, and console games weren't patched much back then (when they were they never announced it) it meant that all the different releases of the game are all unique in their content. If the PS1 version was the last one to get releases, then the last PS1 release would have had the most improvements. What release would that be?

[MetHy]

The different names are due to the European and Japanese publishers not liking the original name.

deuxsonic, on 26 August 2016 - 12:32 AM, said:

If the PS1 version was the last one to get releases, then the last PS1 release would have had the most improvements. What release would that be?

It's not that simple. Like I said the PS1 version had a different main programmer, and it is a port of the Saturn version.

The PS1 version is generally the most known and liked, but if you ask me, the Saturn version is better. The engine was developed with the Saturn in mind to begin with. The PS1 version is prone to more lag during normal gameplay, and if you turn on the overlay automap framerate drops insanely. The Saturn PAL version seems to be the one which lags the least, but it also seems to be a little less smooth. Also I feel that combat is a lot more satisfying on Saturn, due to the lack of impact of sounds and enemy behaviours it feels less satisfying to me on PS1.

I haven't digged into the PS1 versions enough yet to tell if it has regional differences and which is the best.
The PAL PS1 version was released a month after the NTSC-U one, which is short. I can't find the release dates of the Jap versions.
The speedrun of the PS1 version is done using the PAL version, which if anything is at least a sign that it got a proper speed conversion to 50hz.

Edit : I'm really interested in getting the Jap Saturn version because it may be the best, but so far no luck to find it. However the Saturn PAL version will probably still be the best to speedrun due to several reasons.

Edit 2: I've found a much better shortcut in one of the levels and I'm going to try and record a better run. I think I can do a sub 30mins run.

[sirlemonhead]

The PS1 and Saturn code bases don't share any code apparently. They were written entirely independently

[deuxsonic]

The Saturn renders everything 3D in quads where the PS1 uses triangles like everything else. Trying to port between the 2 consoles would have been a nightmare with how massive the hardware differences were (the Saturn hardware alone being extraordinarily complex with CPUs controlling CPUs and the CPU controlling the optical drive actually having basically total control over the rest of the system with a massive number of different instructions this CPU could execute). It explains why the Saturn version of Slavedriver and it's corresponding editor BREW (which was given the ability to do some basic conversions between Duke 3D and Quake maps and the Slavedriver format although I believe all they got out of it were basic shells of the original maps that required heavy reworking) was used to remake Duke Nukem 3D and Quake for Saturn rather than the insane task of trying to port the real games to such an overengineered mess. I really have to hand it to Lobotomy for all of that work. With the original sounds, music, and art, and almost completely remaking all the maps of both games and recreating all the game logic as best they could, they kind of got something like both games for the Saturn, which is probably the best you could hope for. They had Quake ported to the PS1 (I'm curious how close that one was to the actual game versus the Saturn recreation) but there weren't any publishers interested in it. Ezra Dreisbach was their engine programmer so I'm sure he had loads of fun getting stuff to work with all the quirks and nonsense of both consoles.

[MetHy]

Again, based on the interviews linked above...

For DN3D they were able to convert maps from Build to their Engine; however they still had to make many changes and rework some parts, either to connect them for real (like for instance the rooftop in E1L1, which in Build, isn't "really" above the main street) and because of the limits of their engine and of the Saturn. The biggest levels were even stripped into two maps.

For Quake, they couldn't convert anything. They had to re-build everything.

Quote

Ezra Dreisbach was their engine programmer so I'm sure he had loads of fun getting stuff to work with all the quirks and nonsense of both consoles.

Like we said the PS1 version of Powerslave was programmed by someone else entirely.

I don't know anything about their supposed version of Quake for PS1. It's not mentioned anywhere since it never made it.

[sirlemonhead]

Yup Jeff Blazier was responsible for the PSX version. He wrote all the code from scratch - nothing was shared bar levels and game assets. It's crazy thinking

Nothing is left of the PSX Quake port, sadly.

[MetHy]

New speedrun, game completed in 25min27secs (6 minutes less than the previous run).

I have found new tricks which save a lot of time. It's not just bomb jumping anymore.