[icecoldduke]

** DISREGARD** ** DISREGARD**

[Hank]

^ sure
top view of E2L7



side view, hiding the sector extended where the mirror is

[icecoldduke]

** DISREGARD**

[Mark]

In Mapster It took all of 2 minutes to find and tweak that mirror area in E2L7 so it is no longer using SOS and still looks identical. But I guess thats not the point.

[icecoldduke]

** DISREGARD**

[Mark]

yeah, but I'm sure its not that easy for the other maps.

[icecoldduke]

** DISREGARD**

[Hendricks266]

icecoldduke, on 26 May 2016 - 05:00 PM, said:

Oh and as a side note the MeshBuildTool, which builds meshes into a memory ready format, is going to use Open Asset Import Library, which means FBX, MD2, MD3, MD5Mesh, MD5Anim, .Blender, etc etc will be supported in PolymerNG.

How big is that library? Supporting .blender seems downright excessive.

[icecoldduke]

Hendricks266, on 26 May 2016 - 06:44 PM, said:

How big is that library? Supporting .blender seems downright excessive.

The library is heavy, but its only included in the mesh build tool, not the engine. The engine ONLY loads the memory ready data. Don't panic guys I will make asset import a streamlined process, but as of right now the toolset can import the following formats:

COMMON INTERCHANGE FORMATS
Autodesk ( .fbx )
Collada ( .dae )
glTF ( .gltf, .glb )
Blender 3D ( .blend )
3ds Max 3DS ( .3ds )
3ds Max ASE ( .ase )
Wavefront Object ( .obj )
Industry Foundation Classes (IFC/Step) ( .ifc )
XGL ( .xgl,.zgl )
Stanford Polygon Library ( .ply )
*AutoCAD DXF ( .dxf )
LightWave ( .lwo )
LightWave Scene ( .lws )
Modo ( .lxo )
Stereolithography ( .stl )
DirectX X ( .x )
AC3D ( .ac )
Milkshape 3D ( .ms3d )
* TrueSpace ( .cob,.scn )
MOTION CAPTURE FORMATS
Biovision BVH ( .bvh )
* CharacterStudio Motion ( .csm )
GRAPHICS ENGINE FORMATS
Ogre XML ( .xml )
Irrlicht Mesh ( .irrmesh )
* Irrlicht Scene ( .irr )
GAME FILE FORMATS
Quake I ( .mdl )
Quake II ( .md2 )
Quake III Mesh ( .md3 )
Quake III Map/BSP ( .pk3 )
* Return to Castle Wolfenstein ( .mdc )
Doom 3 ( .md5* )
*Valve Model ( .smd,.vta )
*Open Game Engine Exchange ( .ogex )
*Unreal ( .3d )
OTHER FILE FORMATS
BlitzBasic 3D ( .b3d )
Quick3D ( .q3d,.q3s )
Neutral File Format ( .nff )
Sense8 WorldToolKit ( .nff )
Object File Format ( .off )
PovRAY Raw ( .raw )
Terragen Terrain ( .ter )
3D GameStudio (3DGS) ( .mdl )
3D GameStudio (3DGS) Terrain ( .hmp )
Izware Nendo ( .ndo )

Right now I am reduing alot of the image code, and getting a material system working, so I will have some screenshots of all of this by the weekend. I have the mesh build tool working, and engine loads it in successfully, I need to also hook up the mesh overrides to the def system and such as well.

[Kyanos]

icecoldduke, on 26 May 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

Let me pose a question. What current build tricks would you want to use in the next gen renderer?

This one will be challenging I think.

http://infosuite.duk...ge=ae_tricks_a2



map and faq here http://dnr.duke4.net/editing.php.html
Translucent Water Demonstration by Bob Averill

[icecoldduke]

** DISREGARD**

[MusicallyInspired]

icecoldduke, on 26 May 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

What current build tricks would you want to use in the next gen renderer?

[Mblackwell]

In this example of "transparent water" there is the potential that the sectors would be within each other's boundaries even on the Z plane. In fact it's required in some setups.

There's another version of the trick where you flip the red walls and you get a result like in the New World mods.

[HiPolyBash]

Why not include an option to run the offline build pass for all the vanilla maps upon first run with the advisory that the maps will perform worse with PolymerNG effects enabled if you forgo the process? What about a system similar to maphacks that identify the sectors that use SOS for the vanilla maps as maphacks would be required for the placement of light points anyway? User maps can use the slow vis pass by default but if they wish to implement the new PolymerNG effects and fully take advantage of the renderer they can run the offline build pass tool or modify their maps to remove occurrences of SOS where not needed for performance optimization?

The only circumstance with performance issues seems to be if a map had take full advantage of PolymerNG features while featuring SOS, using all the bells and whistles featured in PolymerNG as well as high-res textures and models without performing an offline pass which seems to be an exceptional, unrealistic situation anyway.

[Hendricks266]

Sometimes I feel like PolymerNG should drop the pretenses of being a proper source port-worthy renderer and focus on whatever you Cataclysm guys want. As more is revealed about its progress, I see more work falling on my shoulders to get things working "right" for consideration of merging upstream.

HiPolyBash, on 26 May 2016 - 07:12 PM, said:

Why not include an option to run the offline build pass for all the vanilla maps upon first run with the advisory that the maps will perform worse with PolymerNG effects enabled if you forgo the process?

The pass should just be done on level load. Nothing offline needed. This is part of being a source port: retrofitting existing content dynamically without any user intervention.

HiPolyBash, on 26 May 2016 - 07:12 PM, said:

What about a system similar to maphacks that identify the sectors that use SOS for the vanilla maps as maphacks would be required for the placement of light points anyway?

"Make the user download something extra so that the renderer functions as it should in the first place." Do you seriously think that sounds sane?

[Mblackwell]

What happens in E1L1 when the geometry changes every few minutes?

Doing everything offline won't help in many of the vanilla maps.

[Hendricks266]

icecoldduke, on 26 May 2016 - 06:37 PM, said:

I got a lot of e-mails basically saying the same thing; everyone is confused.

To anyone emailing icecoldduke: post here for all to see instead of going behind the EDuke32 team's backs.

[HiPolyBash]

Hendricks266, on 26 May 2016 - 07:14 PM, said:

Sometimes I feel like PolymerNG should drop the pretenses of being a proper source port-worthy renderer and focus on whatever you Cataclysm guys want. As more is revealed about its progress, I see more work falling on my shoulders to get things working "right".

At the very bare assed, bottom of the barrel scenario it should at the very core be a port capable of playing Duke Nukem 3D vanilla from beginning to end with no significant issues performance wise or other. Include the Polymost/Polymer renderer if possible for compatibility with legacy content and allow user creations going forward to take full advantage of the new renderer. Keep in mind this is entirely a hypothetical, at the very minimum scenario that'd still be acceptable for people who were looking for a modern outlet for their Duke creations without the fear of Captain Jackass and his Merry Band of Lawyers fist fucking anyone who wanted to work on Duke projects in a modern engine. This isn't the ideal scenario but it'd be something.

Quote

The pass should just be done on level load. Nothing offline needed. This is part of being a source port: retrofitting existing content dynamically without any user intervention.

As far as I've interpreted what Icecoldduke is saying there would be no performance issues with the vanilla maps in the base game. They'd only exist if someone decided to enable all the features of PolymerNG and throw models and high-res textures into the mix without doing an offline pass or having a maphack like system. It'd still work just with performance issues.

Quote

"Make the user download something extra so that the renderer functions as it should in the first place." Do you seriously think that sounds sane?

It's just an idea.

This is specifically in the situation that someone wants to use all the new features of the renderer without sacrificing performance. The way I've read it is that they'd run perfectly fine in their vanilla state without issue even if they use SOS. Even with the PolymerNG features enabled they'd still work just perform worse.

[Mblackwell]

Hendricks266, on 26 May 2016 - 07:14 PM, said:

Sometimes I feel like PolymerNG should drop the pretenses of being a proper source port-worthy renderer and focus on whatever you Cataclysm guys want. As more is revealed about its progress, I see more work falling on my shoulders to get things working "right".

This is part of being a source port: retrofitting existing content dynamically without any user intervention.

Yes, the basic goal should be to make something as flexible as BUILD is now so all previous content "just works", and we keep all of the advantages of the engine. From day one you should make sure vanilla Duke at the very least works the same across the board as it did before, and THEN you start building features on top. All of these things should have been taken into account in the initial design outlay... There are a billion engines that can do pre-baked everything and you throw a ton of shaders on top. BUILD offers flexibility. You can quite literally reference sectors from one part of the map into other parts of the map and the game engine doesn't skip a beat, it just draws it because all it cares about is where the wall reference says the next portal is. This is a huge strength over any other engine and has allowed mappers and modders to create basically anything they have wanted over the years with the only restrictions being the limitations in the format (which is bound by memory limitations).

If you remove this, you basically turn it into a much lesser version of other free engines that already exist right now.



When other source ports have new renderers tacked on they are usually quite careful to try and get it as accurate to the original as possible if they want to be successful. The idtech (particularly Doom) community generally is a good example of this. Vanilla content all works just as you expect but with better framerates and more features.


I'm not sure what your frame of reference for speed is in PolymerNG, but why are you settling for a bit faster than Polymer when you could be trying for Polymost which gets 242fps in Clear the Coast.

[icecoldduke]

EDIT1:
Removed extra comments. Evaling Polymost in CLCoast, stand by.

EDIT2:
Verified 5-6ms in Polymost in worse area. Need to eval whats going on. Stand by.

[Hank]

icecoldduke, on 26 May 2016 - 06:37 PM, said:

So right now I have three choices I'm offering for making content for PolymerNG.

• Slow Vis Pass: Can do everything that Polymost and Polymer can do. Not optimized for speed, and will not support NG rendering effects.
• Fast Vis Pass: Doesn't support sectors encroaching on other sectors. Will have support for NG effects. 2x the speed of the Slow vis Pass.
• The mystical offline build pass(voxels or something similar): Supports 60fps and all the nice build effects you guys like in build. Might even support dynamic sectors without any work, besides running the offline build tool. Info on this is TBD. Will support NG effects.

That's not fair to us. At least in my humble opinion.
You are the one programming all this, therefore it is up to you to decide how you wish to proceed.
TerminX offered a direct conversation via Scype, did he not? Him, Hendricks266 and anyone actively working on EDuke32 can effectively advice on this.
well it's quoted, to be ignored though.

[Mblackwell]

icecoldduke, on 26 May 2016 - 07:40 PM, said:

What geometry are you talking about specifically? E1L1 has three instances of SOS encroaching on other sectors, those are the ONLY fail cases with the fast vis pass. I have been doing a bunch of testing in E1L1, but I would love to hear what changing geometry issues you think would be a problem.

Why wouldn't doors, exploding walls and floors, and a few other oddities in the map change that result in a pre-baked scenario?

[icecoldduke]

Hank, on 26 May 2016 - 07:40 PM, said:

That's not fair to us. At least in my humble opinion.
You are the one programming all this, therefore it is up to you to decide how you wish to proceed.
TerminX offered a direct conversation via Scype, did he not? Him, Hendricks266 and anyone actively working on EDuke32 can effectively advice on this.

Mblackwell, on 26 May 2016 - 07:42 PM, said:

Why wouldn't doors, exploding walls and floors, and a few other oddities in the map change that result in a pre-baked scenario?

I have verified polymost is running at 4-5ms in worst case areas in clcoast This considered acceptable. Don't understand yet why its running its so fast. Stand by.

EDIT1:
Looks like Ken is using the smost, dmost logic to do culling. Stand by.

EDIT2:
I'm going to say completely disregard everything in the past 30 topics talking about all this. This is proof the albedo can run fast with all features enabled. Will post back when I have it hooked up properly.

Everyone thank MBlackwell.

Disregard EVERYTHING I have said today.

[Hendricks266]

icecoldduke, on 26 May 2016 - 07:45 PM, said:

EDIT2:
I'm going to say completely disregard everything in the past 30 topics talking about all this. This is proof the albedo can run fast with all features enabled. Will post back when I have it hooked up properly.

Everyone thank MBlackwell.

Disregard EVERYTHING I have said today.

[icecoldduke]

If you have quoted anything I have said today please remove it. I don't need late commers panicing over stale information.

[Hendricks266]

icecoldduke, on 26 May 2016 - 06:57 PM, said:

** DISREGARD**

Alright dude, rule #1 is no blanking of posts. It's dishonest. Put a preface, strike out the contents, surround with spoiler tags, any or all of the above.

icecoldduke, on 26 May 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

If you have quoted anything I have said today please remove it. I don't need late commers panicing over stale information.

Latecomers can shit their pants for all I care, if they're too dumb and/or impatient to read the entire thread.

[icecoldduke]

Hendricks266, on 26 May 2016 - 07:57 PM, said:

Alright dude, rule #1 is no blanking of posts. It's dishonest. Put a preface, strike out the contents, surround with spoiler tags, any or all of the above.

I fully admit I was wrong. I'm not doing it to hide the fact I was wrong. I was wrong. VERY wrong but I don't want people panicing over stale info. This is great fucking news. I wondered if using the dmost and umost logic would work, and perform well; this is a great example of it working properly.

I want to clear...I'm not hiding anything. I was wrong I blanked out those posts already, I apologize, if you can re-add those posts back great, if not I know for future reference.

[Hendricks266]

icecoldduke, on 26 May 2016 - 07:59 PM, said:

I'm not hiding anything.

I don't believe you are, but now that you've blanked record all anyone can do is take your word for it.

[icecoldduke]

Hendricks266, on 26 May 2016 - 08:00 PM, said:

I don't believe you are, but now that you've blanked record all anyone can do is take your word for it.

That was not the intent. I love being wrong, this is a great example were being wrong yielded great results, but you have to take my word for that , but I wont' do it agian. Moving on I'll post back when I have Polymost render hooked up in PolymerNG.

[MusicallyInspired]

Ken Silverman, John Carmack,.....proof that oldschool is smarter than nextgen. These things are very good to hear.

Hendricks266, on 26 May 2016 - 07:14 PM, said:

Sometimes I feel like PolymerNG should drop the pretenses of being a proper source port-worthy renderer and focus on whatever you Cataclysm guys want.

Hey, I was a Cataclysm guy and I don't want that. Then again, I haven't run into anything audio-wise that I'd ever want to change so drastically.