[Forge]

Mblackwell, on 18 February 2016 - 10:46 AM, said:

http://legacy.3dreal...urce_readme.txt

true for SW, but not for blood, darkforces, daggerfall, xngine
that's why it can't be a source port.

Mblackwell, on 18 February 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

more like using the source to create an asset loader and game-play recreation

'technically' probably fairly accurate assessment since it can't be a true 'source port'. With the non- open source items, he has to decompile it and 'port' what he can to his engine.

MrFlibble, on 18 February 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

The initial release (Beta 1) is planned to only support the software renderers of each of the respective games, recreated using reverse-engineering.

^this
&
The XL Engine is not open source at this time and the source code is not available. However, it should become open source soon after reached beta status.


So at what point do we start and stop splitting hairs about how the source codes, decompiled codes, & game assets are used?

Is there a difference between ripping all the maps & assets out of blood, then using SW to recreate the game as accurately as possible vs. decompiling blood & using the code to create a game launcher?

[Mblackwell]

MrFlibble, on 18 February 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

The Daggerfall Tools for Unity is a completely different project altogether. To the best of my knowledge, XL Engine does not use Unity.

I didn't say it did.



Based on the website XL Engine is either a glorified front loader with some injectors for shaders or a completely separate and custom engine that things are being recreated on, with while having no relation to the original other than hopefully being a decent approximation, and being able to load assets from the original engine.

Edit: So no, it's not a "source port" although it is a port of a kind. Just to say that it might be splitting hairs a bit, but it does mean that it being exact is always going to be an uphill battle, and for me you might as well have just edited the SW source to get the newfangled benefits rather than try to rebuilt it in a new engine with the source as a guide. And if that's what's happening (it's just edited source) then it's not really a new "engine".

[Forge]

download the last release and look at what's included in the darkforces folder.
maybe looking at it will be better than some code-illiterate monkey like me trying to explain the difference between apples and oranges.

it appears to be about as much of an 'engine' as eduke.

how close eduke is to the original Duke3D is probably a good approximate to about how close this XL is to the original games it intends to launch

I could always dig out my daggerfall disk and find out

[TerminX]

Forge, on 18 February 2016 - 09:05 PM, said:

how close eduke is to the original Duke3D is probably a good approximate to about how close this XL is to the original games it intends to launch

Bullshit, EDuke32 is based directly on the Duke3D source code while all of the games in XL are reverse engineered approximations.

[luciusDXL]

Hello, I made this account a long time ago - I've made one other post I think but do read these forums from time to time. Anyway I saw this thread and thought I should clear up some things. I will argue some points, mainly so my position is clear. Of course I realize that several of you disagree - which is fine, proof must be in the results.

First I'd like to mention that the current release on the site has not been updated in a long time and predates the reverse engineering and decompiling efforts. The DaggerXL release does not have much gameplay - outside of dungeon combat and DarkXL is much more complete but still a recreation (and the build is an alpha build). For a source-port accurate, gameplay complete experience you will have to wait until Beta 1 is released. Beta 1 can only be so accurate by disassembling the games and generating equivalent source code.

I'd like to be clear that I disagree with the notion that different implementations of an idea cannot produce functionally equivalent results. I would go so far as to assert that this notion is provably false, fortunately - otherwise decompiling, optimizations, refactoring, etc. would be impossible. For example I could write 3 different software rasterizers that can produce the exact same results using radically different algorithms.

Second decompiled code is, if correct, functionally equivalent to the original - though it will look different. Therefore ports built from decompiled code are functionally equivalent - if proper care is taken - to source ports. When I say "accuracy of a source port" I literally mean that.

Third, I know that several free ports exist for Shadow Warrior. Unfortunately, for some people - including myself - they have issues that detract from the enjoyment. And even if that were not true, I don't see any inherent problem if another option is available. Of course I'm not saying that Shadow Warrior running on the XL Engine is bug free but 1) it hasn't been released yet, 2) it needs more testing (see 1), 3) this is the first time I have ever shown it to the public. If Shadow Warrior isn't functionally equivalent to the original it's due to bugs not due to some inherent impossibility.

Shadow Warrior currently uses most of the original code, with edits of course. Yes some systems use the XL Engine implementations but those systems produce equivalent results in areas that matter. Yes mouse look is different, music plays through the XL Engine Ogg player, etc. but the gameplay code will be exactly the same, the software renderer look the same, physics work the same, etc. except where there are bugs or optional changes.

People also seem to be confused as to how Shadow Warrior being implemented can possibly help Blood. The game code is completely different and even the version of Build has differences. However enough of the engine is similar that I can get variable, function and file names in cases where they aren't in the exe. I can see how some functions are used and gain extra information. And I got a sense of the requirements of supporting a Build game. Honestly any Build game could have worked, I chose Shadow Warrior because my experiences with existing free ports wasn't that great - it seemed to get less attention then games like Duke Nukem 3D and due to personal preferences.

Truth be told, if people decide they would rather play Shadow Warrior using DosBox, Swp or JFSW - the work of porting and getting the game to work with the XL Engine was still worth it, the effort provided a lot of insights both regarding the engine and Blood decompiling. That said, and you'll have to take my word for it until release unfortunately, but playing Shadow Warrior using the XL Engine is much more enjoyable for me than the alternatives due to the improved high resolution support, better performance and low latency responsive controls.

So is there any point from your point of view? That's for you to decide but it's well worth the trouble from mine.

[Forge]

TerminX, on 18 February 2016 - 09:37 PM, said:

Bullshit, EDuke32 is based directly on the Duke3D source code while all of the games in XL are reverse engineered approximations.

i'm not pissing in your pudding. eduke being based directly from the source codes is not being questioned. (how much that code has been modified since can be left up to debate).

edit; also note the quantifier "approximate" in my post

luciusDXL, on 18 February 2016 - 09:59 PM, said:

Hello,

thanx for rescuing me from my own stupidity

[MetHy]

Well, as far as Blood is concerned, at least it sounds like it can't be as bad as BloodCM (which many people do play). So that's one good thing.

Yeah, I just said that.

[Forge]

MetHy, on 18 February 2016 - 06:12 AM, said:

I could understand a non-fan playing something like XL Engine, but being on this forum, I thought you guys would have a better standard. "It gets the feel" just isn't enough for me.

Oh hey I have all the Michael Jackson CDs here but instead I'll listen to some fan's cover in .flac because it covers as much bass and treble as a vinyl.

MetHy, on 19 February 2016 - 05:59 AM, said:

Well, as far as Blood is concerned, at least it sounds like it can't be as bad as BloodCM (which many people do play). So that's one good thing.

Yeah, I just said that.

[Player Lin]

I don't get how this thread goes, since XL engine beta 1 hasn't release yet...even I get all trepidations about it's accuracy on target game(s)...

And what's wrong with "reverse-engineered approximations"? Maybe SW Classic don't need do that since we have source code, unlike Blood, we never have source code for it...

Oh, don't forgot Strife, every engines now run that game are all "reverse-engineered approximations", even the Steam version is too , does all those engines are bad(eg: Svstrife, ZDooM/GZDooM and Chocolate Strife. Vavoom doesn't count, last time I checked that just a useless, unable-to-play-anythings of crash-fest thing)?

Well, I guess that's too early to conclude about XL engine, since the release one just outdated and the new one still WIP...or I should just shut up... :\

--

Compare Blood on XL engine with BloodCM mod just sounds like compare DooM64EX with DooM 64: Absolution TC, and it's just weird for whatever any reasons for me.

[Striker]

If it looks exactly the same, and plays exactly the same, just having different gears running it all under the hood... where's the problem? That's how I see it.

If it'll be anything like the reverse-engineered ports of Strife, the accuracy will be pretty much 1:1. Or like Lin said, if it turns out accurate, it'd be like Doom 64 EX is to the (inaccurate) Doom 64 TC, and XL Engine, to the (very inaccurate) BloodCM.

[Daedolon]

The issue simply is that the recreations of Blood that we've seen so far have either been complete trash or hopeless approximations at best. Nobody has any hope.

If it'll be even remotely comparable with Strife on Steam, I'll recant my opinion.

[Duke of Hazzard]

MetHy, on 18 February 2016 - 06:12 AM, said:

What's not to understand?

You need at least a modest desktop to play SW in DOSBox, else you can use source ports, but those are still buggy. Latest one is the General Arcade "polishing" of the JFSW code but judging from the update list on Steam it hasn't been worked on for almost a year.

My laptop can't even run Duke3D at 640x480 VESA 2.0 mode, let alone SW or Blood.

Besides, many people here absolutely fawn over Doom 64 but the only way to play that in its original form is on the N64 since the N64 emulators all suck and the Doom64EX project is a "recreation" as you say.

[Sixty Four]

The best way to play the 64 classics are always on the N64. However, Doom64 Ex feels great imo there are some things that people may complain about but overall it gets an approval stamp from me emulators suck Doom64ex is not like that. The Duke64 mod I have never been happier with it on eduke converted. I think the only games that really should be recompiled and recreated are games that lost there original source, games that can be made better overall, and games that are not on pc that need converting. Turok (not to spam it everywhere hehe) is my best example the game had severe performance issues and had a lost source regardless of being on N64 and PC. It was either lost forever or recompiled as Turok ex and I will take option B all day no questions! Turns out option B plays significantly better and offers much more then the original in this case. I also do enjoy Blood CM runs pretty good for me not perfect I know it but its not bad I played it today also (at work) come to think of it honest lol was fun had a steak and cheese to. Some people are making maps for it to because its easier with mapster.

I never heard of this XLengine before either in fact I have seen it only here but never checked the thread had no idea sorry. But hey it seems cool and i'm not downing the SW project at all that's just my opinion on rare games! Here it would be cool to see and nice to see someone motivated for SW always.The Blood version might be cool and rare to check out if this SW project helps it, that's pretty cool and maybe even more worth pursuit never know. But if you do it don't aim for another crab in the bucket or that's just what it will be. Pretty cool looking engine.

I am ranting again ehy oi damn you Duke4 damn you to doge Don't mind me seriously lol so I don't have a hangover in the morning

[Hendricks266]

Sixty Four, on 19 February 2016 - 10:31 PM, said:

Turok (not to spam it everywhere hehe) is my best example the game had severe performance issues and had a lost source regardless of being on N64 and PC.

The Turok source is not lost. Night Dive has it.

[Sixty Four]

It was lost before that I said had but I bet i am being confusing though lol Its kind of amazing but I know this this started before ND got involved but also sobek is pretty great. It is kind of what I meant its a surprise SW is not really a surprise not to be rude. It deserves a great port though not saying that and I like SW a lot someone should be motivated. But I beat redux if that had mp wouldn't be to bad would it. With the workshop if you add mp into the equation it could do some wonders imo even now its not to late

[Player Lin]

Daedolon, on 19 February 2016 - 01:15 PM, said:

The issue simply is that the recreations of Blood that we've seen so far have either been complete trash or hopeless approximations at best. Nobody has any hope.

If it'll be even remotely comparable with Strife on Steam, I'll recant my opinion.

I agreed, since those recreations of Blood shit gave us more pains than anything good, even I feel OK with BloodCM, I see it as TC for Duke3D and you can't blame M210 for everything on it just because being not 100% accuracy or hopeless approximations). But just like current DN IP, I still have very little of hope, should wait and see.


If the XL engine just still shitty recreations again when it released then I won't be against whoever doesn't like that, but I hope it's not shitty...

[Sledgehammer]

Hendricks266, on 19 February 2016 - 10:38 PM, said:

The Turok source is not lost. Night Dive has it.

Isn't it just N64 source code though? I believe they don't have PC source code. I wonder if they have Powerslave/西暦1999 ファラオの復活/Exhumed source code as well, by the way (both PS1 and DOS versions, the later though likely is lost since they mentioned that they going to release PS1+Saturn versions and nothing about DOS version).

[Hendricks266]

Takehiko, on 20 February 2016 - 05:33 AM, said:

Isn't it just N64 source code though? I believe they don't have PC source code.

I don't know.

Takehiko, on 20 February 2016 - 05:33 AM, said:

I wonder if they have Powerslave/西暦1999 ファラオの復活/Exhumed source code as well,

They don't.

Takehiko, on 20 February 2016 - 05:33 AM, said:

the later though likely is lost since they mentioned that they going to release PS1+Saturn versions and nothing about DOS version).

The decision of which version to focus on was Kaiser's personal interest on his project.

[Sledgehammer]

Hendricks266, on 20 February 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

They don't.

Shame. Maybe they'll find it one day. They couldn't find System Shock source code at first too.

Hendricks266, on 20 February 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

The decision of which version to focus on was Kaiser's personal interest on his project.

Interesting. So after all it was Night Dave who asked him to remove download link to Powerslave Ex and stop working on it?

[Hendricks266]

Takehiko, on 20 February 2016 - 10:21 AM, said:

Shame. Maybe they'll find it one day.

It's worth mentioning that Night Dive doesn't actually have any rights to Powerslave.

The EDuke32 team and friends have tried tracking down the Powerslave DOS source and with the exception of one or two possible leads, we assume it is lost.

I believe the case is the same for the PlayStation source, but I'll need to check.

The Saturn source exists. That's all I have to say about that.

Takehiko, on 20 February 2016 - 10:21 AM, said:

Interesting. So after all it was Night Dave who asked him to remove download link to Powerslave Ex and stop working on it?

That's a possibility, but we may never know for sure.

[Sledgehammer]

Hendricks266, on 20 February 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

It's worth mentioning that Night Dive doesn't actually have any rights to Powerslave.

The EDuke32 team and friends have tried tracking down the Powerslave DOS source and with the exception of one or two possible leads, we assume it is lost.

I believe the case is the same for the PlayStation source, but I'll need to check.

The Saturn source exists. That's all I have to say about that.

How are they supposed to release the game for sale? Aren't they in talk with IP owners then?

You did? Well, this is interesting. And why things are so bad about DOS source? Is there totally no hope? Would be nice to have DOS source because DOS version is pretty clunky and of course dated because of old version of the Build engine.

If only Night Dive tried to do something about PS1 source if it's lost. Maybe they could find DOS source too.

Powerslave deserve better fate, both PC and consoles versions. If only there were more FPS with enemies and stuff inspired by Ancient Egypt.

[Hendricks266]

Takehiko, on 20 February 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

If only Night Dive tried to do something about PS1 source if it's lost. Maybe they could find DOS source too.

Night Dive is not the solution.

[Sledgehammer]

Hendricks266, on 20 February 2016 - 11:05 AM, said:

Night Dive is not the solution.

Maybe, but do we have a choice? I don't think anyone care about Powerslave except them. And even then, they want to re-release it because it's another old game. Still, would be nice to hear how bad things are for Powerslave source codes. I'm actually surprised you guys tried to get DOS code.

[Hendricks266]

Takehiko, on 20 February 2016 - 11:14 AM, said:

I don't think anyone care about Powerslave except them.

For what definition of "care"? Care to make money off of it.

Turok EX is a by-sight recreation of the game that only has ripped assets (the easy part of reverse engineering), and it's disgusting that they're selling it as The Real Thing.

Takehiko, on 20 February 2016 - 11:14 AM, said:

I'm actually surprised you guys tried to get DOS code.

This is the kind of "care" Powerslave deserves.

[MetHy]

Hendricks266, on 20 February 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

The EDuke32 team and friends have tried tracking down the Powerslave DOS source and with the exception of one or two possible leads, we assume it is lost.

[Sledgehammer]

Hendricks266, on 20 February 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

For what definition of "care"? Care to make money off of it.

Turok EX is a by-sight recreation of the game that only has ripped assets (the easy part of reverse engineering), and it's disgusting that they're selling it as The Real Thing.

That's basically what I meant. That's why I said that Night Dave care just because it's another old game. Otherwise almost no one even know about existence of this game except some people on Duke4 and Kaiser who is likely working on Powerslave EX right now so Night Dave could release it as a paid product.

Also that's how Night Dive treat their releases in general. I shouldn't even mention how they treated System Shock re-releases and how they pissed SystemShock.org off. But what I like is that they can be useful when it comes to source codes. So who knows, they could find Powerslave source code too.

Hendricks266, on 20 February 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

This is the kind of "care" Powerslave deserves.

So, what happened? Did owners promised to find it or they said that it's lost like always?

[Hendricks266]

Takehiko, on 20 February 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

But what I like is that they can be useful when it comes to source codes. So who knows, they could find Powerslave source code too.

I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion. It is nonsensical.

Takehiko, on 20 February 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

So, what happened? Did owners promised to find it or they said that it's lost like always?

We contacted people. They don't have it. There are people we have not been able to contact yet.

inb4 "Night Dive can help". They can't.

[Sledgehammer]

Hendricks266, on 20 February 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion. It is nonsensical.

Why so? Didn't they find Turok source code? If they didn't and it wasn't lost then at least they found System Shock source. And people didn't have hope, especially when ND said that they couldn't find it at first. Not sure about the rest games they re-released on the other hand. Maybe it would be worth contacting them about source when they decide that it's time to release the game for digital platforms.

Hendricks266, on 20 February 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

We contacted people. They don't have it. There are people we have not been able to contact yet.

Well, that's unfortunate. Hopefully you'll try to reach other people.

[Hendricks266]

Takehiko, on 20 February 2016 - 12:32 PM, said:

Maybe it would be worth contacting them about source when they decide that it's time to release the game for digital platforms.

Takehiko, on 20 February 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

How are they supposed to release the game for sale? Aren't they in talk with IP owners then?

Stephen Kick jumped the gun in the name of free publicity when he announced Powerslave in that one interview. They were not able to secure the rights.

You forget that Night Dive is concerned with exactly one thing: profit. They are suits. A game in their hands is a game lost to the world of business and a quick buck.

[TerminX]

I've considered Night Dive to be a joke ever since I saw how they handled their WW2GI release on Steam. We were in talks for them to license EDuke32, but they didn't want to pay what we were asking, so they opted to just stop communicating but use EDuke32 to take all of their Steam screenshots and record their trailer, while shipping their customers the original DOS version instead. They're a bunch of losers who just want to make money from the work of actual developers.