[Forge]

Zaxx, on 30 October 2018 - 02:23 PM, said:

As for my assumption really, what else should have I assumed

But really I guess I assumed

there were two separate discussions going on. one about performance, one about customer relations. You bundled them.

the example you used is out of context - you omitted the part where I said if the performance increase in the beta makes it to the final release, then drm-free will do better on my older comp.

so I actually support getting the drm-free version for people with lower-end comps, or people who don't want to run additional programs to play the game.

TerminX, on 30 October 2018 - 02:18 PM, said:

I understand your grievances and you make a lot of valid points, it's just that shitting on 3DR for it doesn't really help us address the issue. I give them hell about it enough behind closed doors as it is.

You're right. I shouldn't be bringing a negative vibe into a thread about a good game. I got too bitter about it. More than is called for. Thanks for reeling me in.

[Hank]

TerminX, on 30 October 2018 - 02:18 PM, said:

I give them hell about it enough behind closed doors as it is.

A favor then, behind sealed doors.
At this moment there are two legit customers, at 3D Realms' forum, with questions regarding the Founders Edition. And those boxes weren't exactly cheap. Pretty please, with sugar on top - Someone please answer them.

[Zaxx]

Forge, on 30 October 2018 - 02:36 PM, said:

so I actually support getting the drm-free version for people with lower-end comps, or people who don't want to run additional programs to play the game.

What are your specs? I'm asking because the game relies heavily on the CPU even in OpenGL mode so basically any additional application that's using the CPU on the same core will affect the game's performance. When it comes to Steam though the client leaves the CPU alone if you're not doing anything with it, it just takes up 100 megs from your RAM and that shouldn't be a problem at all.

So if you see better performance when the client is not running than my guess is that it has to do with the Steam overlay because the client itself is very light on resources.

[Forge]

overlay is turned off

@idle:

all the steam services take up almost 250,000k memory

all the Nvidia & avira anti-virus services only take up about 110,000k
(nvidia's version of 'overlay' is also shut off)

[Zaxx]

Forge, on 30 October 2018 - 03:04 PM, said:

overlay is turned off
all the steam services take up almost 250,000k memory

What am I not counting then? Isn't it only the client + bootstrapper and the webhelper? I checked before I posted and those only take up 100-120 megs for me, if I log in to friends that jumps with around 40 megs but that's all. And even if it was more it really doesn't matter since IM uses only around 250-300 megs too, that's nothing.

[Forge]

maybe it's because every time I launch steam I get 5 instances of steamwebhelper.exe running.
steam.exe & steamservice.exe use very little memory

[Forge]

I don't know how to turn on the fps monitor (i haven't looked)

there's not a lot of difference between drm update 2 and beta3 as far as the cpu & mem usage demands are, Maybe 10% difference, on average (not counting the spikes). But the drm-update2 barely uses the gpu, where beta3 uses it quite a bit more. About a 30-40% difference.
Drm-update2 just isn't utilizing my hardware, especially my gpu, efficiently.

fx 8320
gtx 650ti 2gb
16 gb ram

running stock / no o/c

[Hank]

Forge, on 30 October 2018 - 07:33 PM, said:

I don't know how to turn on the fps monitor (i haven't looked)

open console [SHIFT + ~] then type r_showfps 2

[Forge]

can't really compare the two QotH modes. They're almost completely different games with different numbers of enemies, the radar, etc.

so I played until the first large open are in the campaign.

drm-update2 fps 130-40
steam-beta3 fps 340-60

framerate limit=none

side note - the drm-free & steam games share the same configuration files under users/*/appdata/roaming/Ion Maiden Preview Campaign.

[gemeaux333]

More voxel examples :

https://twitter.com/...456088382091264

https://twitter.com/...401552187596800

https://twitter.com/...345501081845760

[Micky C]

I wonder who's making them since TX said voxels are a rare skill set as opposed to sprites. I gather they're converting from 3D models, but they'd still need touch-ups.

Also, given that performance is still an issue in some parts of the game, I wonder what effect the new voxels will have on the frame rate.

[Zaxx]

Micky C, on 30 October 2018 - 09:26 PM, said:

Also, given that performance is still an issue in some parts of the game, I wonder what effect the new voxels will have on the frame rate.

I wouldn't worry about performance that much. The engine is not "commercial game ready" yet (I mean if you make a retro game fairly decent performance is not enough, it has to run and render ultra smooth) but they seem to be well aware of that fact and the rendering improvemens TX was talking about seem pretty significant. If EDuke32 wants to go to consoles then it has to be a lot more efficient (and a lot smoother instead of just chugging along like you were hard locked at 60 even when you get 1000 fps) than it is now and that will be felt on the PC side too.

[Mblackwell]

Forge, on 30 October 2018 - 08:52 PM, said:

can't really compare the two QotH modes. They're almost completely different games with different numbers of enemies, the radar, etc.

so I played until the first large open are in the campaign.

drm-update2 fps 130-40
steam-beta3 fps 340-60

framerate limit=none

side note - the drm-free & steam games share the same configuration files under users/*/appdata/roaming/Ion Maiden Preview Campaign.

In update 3 you can get more information using r_showfps 3. But you are correct that over development time the game is being made to take less and less CPU power and put more onto the GPU. EDuke32 (and Polymost... Build in general) is largely CPU bound.

There were also a good amount of optimizations done on the game side (scripts, etc) for update 3. Right now the update is still not ready to go out until a newer version of EDuke32 that fixes some critical issues has been tested thoroughly.

[HulkNukem]

Duke Nukem 1 and 2 style side scroller Ion Maiden/Bombshell companion game coming when?

[Forge]

Mblackwell, on 31 October 2018 - 01:10 PM, said:

In update 3 you can get more information using r_showfps 3. But you are correct that over development time the game is being made to take less and less CPU power and put more onto the GPU. EDuke32 (and Polymost... Build in general) is largely CPU bound.

There were also a good amount of optimizations done on the game side (scripts, etc) for update 3. Right now the update is still not ready to go out until a newer version of EDuke32 that fixes some critical issues has been tested thoroughly.

as for the cpu, is it single-thread or multi? amd fx chips aren't exactly known for their single thread performance. Shifting the demands onto the gpu, even that old gtx 650 ti, is a huge boost on my rig.

Those fps numbers I gave (for both beta-update3 & drm-free update2) were just for running around out in the outdoor section below the street lamp poles. While I was in the garage & indoor sections, I was getting over 1000 fps with beta-update3 (not sustained unless I stopped moving, & I didn't noticing any tearing or anomalies)

[Zaxx]

Forge, on 31 October 2018 - 04:50 PM, said:

as for the cpu, is it single-thread or multi?

If I saw it correctly the game is using two cores but only one is getting maxed out so ultimately single threaded performance will be the limit to your fps.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Ion Maiden makes a PC Gamer's under-the-radar FPSes list:

Quote

The first chapter of this neo-retro gem is already available, but the rest of it can't come soon enough. What's brilliant about Ion Maiden is the way it takes the best aspects of the ancient Build Engine it's assembled in but applies modern thinking to its weapon designs and level layouts. The result is an FPS with some of the best ingredients of early '90s shooters (gorgeous sprite art, high-acceleration movement, secrets aplenty) without many of the rough edges from that era. Maybe the best example of this is the nuanced behavior of the Bowling Bomb, Ion Maiden's rolling grenade that detonates on impact with enemies, but rebounds dynamically off surfaces and won't explode if it doesn't connect with a bad guy.

Ion Maiden will be done in the second quarter of 2019, and a new level, weapons, and enemies will be shown at PAX South in late January. It's currently rated "Overwhelmingly Positive" across 731 Steam reviews.

https://www.pcgamer....2019-fps-games/

[Mr. Tibbs]

Excuse the double post, but here's an awesome developer blog post concerning Ion Maiden and the Build Engine from Voidpoint and Duke4's own oasiz:

https://3drealms.com...and-ion-maiden/

[MusicallyInspired]

I was expecting a mention of TROR in that article. Does Ion Maiden not use TROR?

[Phredreeke]

I don't think so given that Ion Maiden uses Polymost

[Micky C]

Phredreeke, on 01 November 2018 - 04:30 AM, said:

I don't think so given that Ion Maiden uses Polymost

As the resident "TROR" guy, I think it does in small doses. I haven't paid close attention to where it could be, but as an example, the courtyard in the GDF building (where you use the yellow keycard, and where the lift drops down and explodes in an epic set piece), likely has it near the ceiling to allow the player to enter the rooms, while still having an upper area on top of the building.

TROR can and has been used in polymost. There are examples of it in the DNF 2013 mod and its DLC, such as when you press the button to raise the truck so you can access the vent below. Generally speaking, TROR in polymost is pretty stable as long as you're in the lower sector looking upwards, as is the case in Ion Maiden. When you're looking downwards through a TROR portal where there are red walls in the lower sector, those red walls will cause a weird masked wall effect glitch. However, if you're looking down through a relatively simple TROR portal sector, and there are no red walls in the lower sector, then you can probably get away with it fairly glitch-free. I really need to add this to the wiki page at some point.

[oasiz]

Preview has zero TROR, Skybox use, yes
i.e. the street lamps and signs are floating sprites in the skybox, no rendering prio issues there.
Plus the courtyard is all floating sprites at the top.

I do have some polymost TROR stuff I've been working on..

One neat use case is to abuse non-transparent TROR, i.e. if you want to create shallow water where the player is able to sink in a tiny bit.
You get the collision but no transparency, without the side effect of instant deep lotag1. Useful for slopes and all sorts of shit.

And regarding TROR in that article, I thought I'd just focus on the more characteristic features of the engine so I left it out.
It's a cool feature but I think It's still a bit finicky and would have required way more exposure. At most it was going to be a passing mention anyway along with ROR examples.

[MusicallyInspired]

Ah I see. It's too bad it couldn't be used more comprehensively to really show off what EDuke32 and Build can do in the 21st century. But it already looks incredible anyway.

[Micky C]

Hmm I could have sworn the sectors went over the doors in the courtyard. I’ll be interested in checking out the maps in Mapster once the full version comes out. So much for being the resident TROR guy

The article is very nice, and clearly had a lot of work put into it. Thanks for that!

I do have a minor concern that some of the content might put some potential future mappers off the engine, as this could very well be a page that people visit to see what’s possible in Ion Maiden. Besides the lack of TROR already mentioned, there is the comment that you’re forced to do all mapping in a top-down perspective, and that this can make overlapping sectors difficult to work with. As you’re probably aware, there’s the orthogonal projection mode which is an incredibly useful ‘3D’ view of the level in 2D mode, which can be rotated 360 degrees and at any vertical angle from top-down to side-on.
Furthermore, you went well out of your way to emphasise how tedious shading can be you’re not wrong per se, but you made it sound like, to the uninitiated, that you’re more or less typing in some value on each and every single surface. This is opposed to using a whole bunch of time-saving tips such as highlighting and shading sectors in bulk, or even making use of some basic mapster script to tweak shading. This doesn’t help the requirement for manually drawing shadow sectors, but still.

That reminds me, we still need to have Fox’s automatic shading script properly ported to mapster, I’m sure myself and a few others would get some decent use out it.
On that topic, doesn’t LEBuild have some kind of automatic shadow sector generator?

[MusicallyInspired]

Yes indeed the article was a great read! Loved the example screenshots taking you through each era of 2.5D in Ion Maiden's style.

[brullov]

Micky C, on 30 October 2018 - 09:26 PM, said:

I wonder who's making them since TX said voxels are a rare skill set as opposed to sprites. I gather they're converting from 3D models, but they'd still need touch-ups.

Also, given that performance is still an issue in some parts of the game, I wonder what effect the new voxels will have on the frame rate.

If you can make pixel art than you can make voxels. So any 2D artist can make them, it's not so hard, cause voxels are based on 2D artwork.

I bet that if they show us these voxels, the perfomance allows.

[Forge]

Micky C, on 01 November 2018 - 05:27 AM, said:

I’ll be interested in checking out the maps in Mapster once the full version comes out.

You can look a the preview maps now. At least in 2d mode. I wouldn't recommend 3d mode, unless you can figure out how to get the art & sprites to work.

[oasiz]

Thanks!
I'm aware of the F3 view but it's way less useful than top/side/front view's you'd see in say... worldcraft
TROR editing is still cumbersome and quite tacked on top, 2D mode Z level exclusion is quite unreliable from what I have used (greys out areas despite you being on them)

As for shading, it is a bit dramatic in tone but I think it was a bit necessary since It's something you'd take for granted these days to be automated (or at least be a bit easier). Many tricks & workflow shortcuts exist to speed things up but the approach here is intended to be less veteran-heavy and show more on how 90% of users experience it. For a typical mapper I would argue that it's a lot of work once the detail level passes a certain point as you can shoot yourself on the foot so many times when doing light sources with slopes and dealing with firstwalls, etc.. I wanted it to be simply clear that the lack of handholding comes through
I want to do some better guides once I have more time on stuff that actually shows things a bit better than just a few odd examples, these are mostly just to get the point across.

[Kristian Joensen]

Aside from the very interesting blog post about 2.5D games, 3D Realms updated their website a bit and now has both the 3DR and Voudpoint teams: https://3drealms.com/team/

Akthough the website does have issues on my ohone and tablet.

[Forge]

DavoX looks like he should be tossing midgets around a wrestling ring