[Fox]

100% staged.

[Doom64hunter]

Forge, on 29 March 2018 - 07:02 PM, said:

Gag Fred from ever talking on the matter again, and fire any future PR desk jockey that does address it.

Don't do this actually.
If Wolfenstein 2 taught me anything, getting people like this guy angry could actually help sales.
They have a tendency to unwittingly create their own self-made marketing campaign for a game they desperately want people not to buy.

[Player Lin]

But IM isn't Wolfenstein 2...even I kind of get what you mean...

Again, such shitty marketing shitfest just doesn't fit games like IM if you ask me, and 3DR is NOT Bethesda/ZeniMax, if screwed up so hard then the backlash would be very serious problem for such small company like 3DR and Voidpoint.

[Forge]

Doom64hunter, on 31 March 2018 - 01:04 AM, said:

Don't do this actually.
If Wolfenstein 2 taught me anything, getting people like this guy angry could actually help sales.
They have a tendency to unwittingly create their own self-made marketing campaign for a game they desperately want people not to buy.

You can't reason with people that have more time on their hands than grasp on reality.

Intent means nothing, (twisted) interpretation and feelz is everything.
If someone tries to cater or pander to this completely fabricated social justice issue, then it will get nothing but backlash from everyone. Including the attention seekers that were supposed to be placated. They got what they wanted. Submission and compliance. Then they float away gloating on their moral high-ground cloud.

It was a bad tactical error for someone involved in the distribution of the game to even bring up the old crap from the 90's in the first place. It throws open the doors to criticism from all kinds of idiots off the street, at both extreme ends of the spectrum. Then voidpoint becomes guilty by association.

This is an origin story for fucks sake. Most people start out as 'normal' people before they go through some life changing experience. Even a good portion of comic book heroes were normal people before they got bit by a radio-active hamster, or their parents were killed by a roving band of nuns in a dark alley. Only a few were born with three sets of genitals on planet Spishak and migrated here illegally.
It's a common story-line premise.

[OpenMaw]

Forge, on 31 March 2018 - 03:48 AM, said:

It was a bad tactical error for someone involved in the distribution of the game to even bring up the old crap from the 90's in the first place. It throws open the doors to criticism from all kinds of idiots off the street, at both extreme ends of the spectrum. Then voidpoint becomes guilty by association.

I don't agree with that entirely. I think showing the history of the character is fine. Throwing the silly childish remarks into it was the real issue at play. Going, hey, this is the history and evolution of the character and letting the various designs speak for themselves would have been the better route.

Forge, on 31 March 2018 - 03:48 AM, said:

This is an origin story for fucks sake. Most people start out as 'normal' people before they go through some life changing experience. Even a good portion of comic book heroes were normal people before they got bit by a radio-active hamster, or their parents were killed by a roving band of nuns in a dark alley. Only a few were born with three sets of genitals on planet Spishak and migrated here illegally.
It's a common story-line premise.

I'm not even sure if the term is applicable in the classic sense given the fact that this is an old school shooter and if we're completely honest narrative like that isn't particularly important. IE: the timeline of the Duke Nukem games was always in a state of flux and so forth... With one glaring issue that I see which has saddled the character's narrative. Bombshell, the game, itself. If this is literally playing out what was referred to as the "Washington incident" Bombshell is basically sandbagged into the worst aspects of her future self. That is to say, if they even made another game featuring the character after IM and it's not just a one-off scenario. You'd have to time jump away from Bombshell/ignore it outright to give the character a chance to become something more palatable again.

Doom64hunter, on 31 March 2018 - 01:04 AM, said:

If Wolfenstein 2 taught me anything, getting people like this guy angry could actually help sales.
They have a tendency to unwittingly create their own self-made marketing campaign for a game they desperately want people not to buy.

Not always is bad press a good thing. Sometimes bad press is just bad press. The fundamental frustration beyond the audience of Wolfenstein II actually goes to the gameplay itself being such a downgrade from the first game, and since you spend far less time playing the game and instead listening to the characters preach, the politics at play stick out even further. It's a toxic mix. I don't think it's really helping the Wolfensten franchise to have that kind of press. Not in the long term.

Player Lin, on 31 March 2018 - 01:14 AM, said:

Again, such shitty marketing shitfest just doesn't fit games like IM if you ask me, and 3DR is NOT Bethesda/ZeniMax, if screwed up so hard then the backlash would be very serious problem for such small company like 3DR and Voidpoint.

Honestly I think that's even blowing this particular scenario out of proportion. There is nothing wrong with Ion Maiden and i'd be very surprised to find out that anyone with any sense looked at that concept art and said there was anything wrong with the game. My strongest words on the subject were that the character was a little bland. That's not even harsh criticism, and for the record that has nothing to do with the voice actress. I think she's doing a tremendous job and my hat goes off to her. It's definitely a huge improvement from the delivery and context given in Bombshell which was not dull nearly as much as it was often times awkward.

Even xMobilemux being basically the strongest critic of the character in relation to the concepts here on the forum is not really poo-pooing the game itself, just the notion that the character had to be X or Y.

So with that being said I don't think the two situations are nearly as comparable. This wasn't some massive media outcry that swept through the various outlets and had people calling for a boycott or anything. It sounds like a few outlying extremes on the STEAM forums doing what they always do over there, and that's be overly toxic and pathetic.

I do think there was some legitimate criticism to be made over the context the images were given, and I do think there is some room for improvement with the Shelly Harrison character.

[Zaxx]

Commando Nukem, on 31 March 2018 - 05:46 AM, said:

I don't agree with that entirely. I think showing the history of the character is fine. Throwing the silly childish remarks into it was the real issue at play. Going, hey, this is the history and evolution of the character and letting the various designs speak for themselves would have been the better route.

Let the designs speak for themselves? Dude, we're talking about internet retards who think 2+2 equals 3, letting the designs speak for themselves would have lead to the same stupid conclusions. Hell, if you look at the Steam forums these kind of idiotic "girl has armor, devs must be SJWs" opinions started even before Fred came out with the old stuff, he just catalyzed them so they became a problem.

[Player Lin]

Commando Nukem, on 31 March 2018 - 05:46 AM, said:

Honestly I think that's even blowing this particular scenario out of proportion. There is nothing wrong with Ion Maiden and i'd be very surprised to find out that anyone with any sense looked at that concept art and said there was anything wrong with the game. My strongest words on the subject were that the character was a little bland. That's not even harsh criticism, and for the record that has nothing to do with the voice actress. I think she's doing a tremendous job and my hat goes off to her. It's definitely a huge improvement from the delivery and context given in Bombshell which was not dull nearly as much as it was often times awkward.

Even xMobilemux being basically the strongest critic of the character in relation to the concepts here on the forum is not really poo-pooing the game itself, just the notion that the character had to be X or Y.

So with that being said I don't think the two situations are nearly as comparable. This wasn't some massive media outcry that swept through the various outlets and had people calling for a boycott or anything. It sounds like a few outlying extremes on the STEAM forums doing what they always do over there, and that's be overly toxic and pathetic.

I do think there was some legitimate criticism to be made over the context the images were given, and I do think there is some room for improvement with the Shelly Harrison character.

Internet just a weird place with shitload of weirdos and they may make your life miserable if you're not careful when deal with them, better just don't give any of shit to them, it just not worth any of your shit.

Agreed about it can be get some more improvements for IM's Shelly, but I still think current design(in Preview) is good enough(*) and I feel xMobilemux just a little overreacting IMHO, even I understand the point(s) of his critique and that's fine, because I know everyone has his/her own taste, just don't "demand the dev. should do something" and I think it's fine...

(*): Or maybe because I like these kind of design so I feel that's good enough, I don't know but I'm sure copying what Duke was had may just bad idea, she's brand new Shelly, not the original Bombshell that never see any of light.

[Forge]

Commando Nukem, on 31 March 2018 - 05:46 AM, said:

I'm not even sure if the term is applicable in the classic sense given the fact that this is an old school shooter and if we're completely honest narrative like that isn't particularly important.

Narrations and story lines being exclusive to everything except 90's shooters?
And retro ones made nearly two decades later, no less?
Ones labeled as prequels (implying there is a narration and sequence of events)?

Commando Nukem, on 31 March 2018 - 05:46 AM, said:

I don't agree with that entirely. I think showing the history of the character is fine. Throwing the silly childish remarks into it was the real issue at play. Going, hey, this is the history and evolution of the character and letting the various designs speak for themselves would have been the better route.

It not that it was done, it was a matter of who brought it up.
Intent was irrelevant. It was how the people took it, and the mess it turned into.
Maybe it was only a steam forum, but it won't go unnoticed by the Sarkeesites.

Commando Nukem, on 31 March 2018 - 05:46 AM, said:

the politics at play stick out even further. It's a toxic mix

I hope she gets a double mastectomy to go along with her arm being removed. Just to piss off people who think she has to be an over the top 90's sexpot in order to be a legitimate character in a retro game.
(she can rip on soy-boys too, call them the "real shemales", just to piss off the other end of the spectrum).

The character can be what ever they want it to be. It doesn't have to fit a special mold. And it doesn't have to be 'sandbagged' into a role.
Characters and stories get re-written all the time in books, movies, television shows, etc.
Bombshell was a bad dream, or an alternate universe Dick Grayson

[OpenMaw]

Zaxx, on 31 March 2018 - 06:01 AM, said:

Let the designs speak for themselves? Dude, we're talking about internet retards who think 2+2 equals 3, letting the designs speak for themselves would have lead to the same stupid conclusions. Hell, if you look at the Steam forums these kind of idiotic "girl has armor, devs must be SJWs" opinions started even before Fred came out with the old stuff, he just catalyzed them so they became a problem.

Exactly, so don't be a catalyzer in the first place, right? Context is for kings, but heavy lies the crown, and that's what happened there. The salt and toxicity on the STEAM forums has always been high.

Forge, on 31 March 2018 - 06:22 AM, said:

Narrations and story lines being exclusive to everything except 90's shooters?
And retro ones made nearly two decades later, no less?
Ones labeled as prequels (implying there is a narration and sequence of events)?

Forge, on 31 March 2018 - 06:22 AM, said:

The character can be what ever they want it to be. It doesn't have to fit a special mold. And it doesn't have to be 'sandbagged' into a role.
Characters and stories get re-written all the time in books, movies, television shows, etc.
Bombshell was a bad dream, or an alternate universe Dick Grayson

My point was that YMMV as to how much stock can be put into the term "prequel" given the context here. Where, Evil Dead style, the entire narrative could be altered and shifted around by the next installment in the series. IE DNF putting the events of Duke Nukem 3D sometime in "1996" even though Duke 1 - 2 and 3D form a vague connection that would place Duke Nukem 3D sometime in 1998.

The prequel argument you were putting forth holds no water if things are that disposable. That mean Ion Maiden isn't so much a prequel and is more akin to a soft reboot. Which I honestly think is the better way to go anyway.

Forge, on 31 March 2018 - 06:22 AM, said:

It not that it was done, it was a matter of who brought it up.
Intent was irrelevant. It was how the people took it, and the mess it turned into.
Maybe it was only a steam forum, but it won't go unnoticed by the Sarkeesites.

I can't agree. Intent is very important. If you show someone a picture and give it no context, it's on the viewer to give it context. Show that same picture and say "this represents the death of facism." You have now given the audience the means to critique it, and you, from that specific context. Controlling the narrative from the outset is very important when it comes to presentation.

[Forge]

Commando Nukem, on 31 March 2018 - 06:48 AM, said:

I can't agree. Intent is very important. If you show someone a picture and give it no context, it's on the viewer to give it context. Show that same picture and say "this represents the death of facism." You have now given the audience the means to critique it, and you, from that specific context. Controlling the narrative from the outset is very important when it comes to presentation.

Intent is shit. It's the reaction it creates.
Child porn is child porn, no matter if you call it 'art' or not.

Intent matters when you know your audience.
Knowing steam is a cesspool like twitter, the reaction to anything even remotely open for interpretation should have been expected.
If Fred had posted that here, it most likely would have never gotten the reaction it did.

[MusicallyInspired]

Commando Nukem, on 31 March 2018 - 05:46 AM, said:

I don't agree with that entirely. I think showing the history of the character is fine. Throwing the silly childish remarks into it was the real issue at play. Going, hey, this is the history and evolution of the character and letting the various designs speak for themselves would have been the better route.

If Fred had just posted those concept images without hanging a lantern on the "inappropriateness" and "embarrassment" of them, then he'd get heat for advocating for it, which is why he threw in the caveat in the first place. Either way it causes trouble, don't you see? It would have been better if it weren't released at all. Intent means nothing to the internet.

[OpenMaw]

Forge, on 31 March 2018 - 06:54 AM, said:

.
Child porn is child porn, no matter if you call it 'art' or not.

That's a bit of an extreme example. That's like dropping the Hitler comparisons in there. Nobody but an insane person would argue that particular example. I assumed we were in the realm of thereasonable assumption, and reasonable expectation.

MusicallyInspired, on 31 March 2018 - 09:23 AM, said:

If Fred had just posted those concept images without hanging a lantern on the "inappropriateness" and "embarrassment" of them, then he'd get heat for advocating for it, which is why he threw in the caveat in the first place. Either way it causes trouble, don't you see? It would have been better if it weren't released at all. Intent means nothing to the internet.

I can see your point to a degree, but I think that outrage would be obviously silly, because the redesigns would indicate the exact opposite.

[Forge]

Commando Nukem, on 31 March 2018 - 10:45 AM, said:

I assumed we were in the realm of thereasonable assumption, and reasonable expectation
I can see your point to a degree, but I think that outrage would be obviously silly, because the redesigns would indicate the exact opposite.

you looked at this link?

Doom64hunter, on 31 March 2018 - 01:04 AM, said:

this guy

Case closed.

[Zaxx]

Forge, on 31 March 2018 - 11:32 AM, said:

you looked at this link?

Hey, at least Sarge liked the game:
http://steamcommunit...mmended/562860/
Guess IM's "Brutal" enough.

[MusicallyInspired]

Commando Nukem, on 31 March 2018 - 10:45 AM, said:

I can see your point to a degree, but I think that outrage would be obviously silly, because the redesigns would indicate the exact opposite.

Dude....are you new to the internet or something? I agree it's silly. Of course it is. Any one person who sits and gives some thought to it would come to that conclusion. But you are vastly overestimating the intelligence of people on the internet. It's all about reaction not thinking.

[fgsfds]

Can we close this discussion already? Even steam forums got over it and that retarded Green Skeleton stopped making dozens of threads on 4chan like a week ago. You seem to be the only ones that still keep this shit going.

[OpenMaw]

Why would the discussion be closed? Discussion in this sense is good for the game. Aside of some slight incensed back-and-forth it's relatively civil and it's still on topic with relation to the game and the character. You know what the big problem is? There are only so many ways to praise the game. It's a good game. There's not a lot to really critique in that regard, and speculation is only going to go so far on so little.

I posted two attempts to return to talking about just the game without the bullshit, and the discussion turn back this way within four posts. But hey, let's try again here.

Fox, on 30 March 2018 - 11:41 PM, said:

100% staged.

On the subject of staged, this is probably my favorite staged image from Duke 3D. It has such a meta-aspect to it when you finally play the game and find that location is a literal STAGE.

Forge, on 29 March 2018 - 08:24 PM, said:

I only know of two who did it pre-spoiler videos. (vid dated Mar 2 -almost all other vids are from Mar 3 or later)
James, and the person that made the videos.

There were a couple secrets in each section that kicked my ass, and I ended up having to watch the vids.

I got to the end of the first level with half the secrets still unfound. "WHAT!?" I had to go back and my brain was honestly hurt trying to think outside the box. Props to the mappers, again, for stuffing in the secrets.

MrFlibble, on 30 March 2018 - 12:53 AM, said:

I was immediately reminded of this guy:

That's rather uncanny actually. Props to the developers for paying homage to all manner of 90s shooters in that regard.

[Daedolon]

Marathon 2 also has similar enemies. There's also this fun movie:



The 80s and 90s were full of crazy fun stuff.

[Zaxx]

It's interesting to know that the Loverboy is not as far fetched as it may seem:
http://www.guns.com/...-shot-revolver/

Lol.

[Hank]

[Nitpicking]
It looks like the index finger of the left hand is too long? I tried with my own hand, no matter what I can't replicate the pose.


[/nitpicking]

[OpenMaw]

It's the angle. I think her middle finger is pulled back and bent more. I was able to roughly replicate it by holding my hand in a certain way.

[Forge]

Commando Nukem, on 01 April 2018 - 05:56 PM, said:

It's the angle. I think her middle finger is pulled back and bent more. I was able to roughly replicate it by holding my hand in a certain way.

this^

I simulated like I was holding a beer bottle with the top finger a bit closer to the neck than what I would normally hold a bottle. Felt a little abnormal bringing my top finger in a bit like that, but it looked roughly the same.
Maybe Shelly has a yet to be revealed drinking problem.

[Hank]

^ as I wrote, I'm nitpicking.
Still, I tried with two 3D hands, no luck.

[Forge]

Hank, on 01 April 2018 - 07:24 PM, said:

Still, I tried with two 3D hands, no luck.

that's cause you're used to drinking from a can.
barbarian.

[OpenMaw]

Hank, on 01 April 2018 - 07:24 PM, said:

^ as I wrote, I'm nitpicking.

I think you were titpicking.

Forge, on 01 April 2018 - 08:02 PM, said:

that's cause you're used to drinking from a can.
barbarian.

Everyone of class and good manners drinks from a glass. A shapely glass.

[MrFlibble]

Daedolon, on 01 April 2018 - 04:54 AM, said:

There's also this fun movie:

I'm suddenly asking myself if this wasn't an inspiration for Eradicator in the first place...

[Micky C]

On subsequent playthroughs of Ion Maiden it has become more and more clear that the levels are quite linear in their progression; the way you complete the levels, despite their relatively open and non-linear layouts. For example, you have to collect to collect keycards in a specific order instead of having the freedom to choose which one to go for first. Sure, there are several parts where you can choose from multiple hallways for example, but they all lead to the same area.

So, while the levels are non-linear on a micro scale, they're very linear on a macro scale, hampering the replay value. Will this be improved in levels in the final game?

[OpenMaw]

Compare and contrast, Micky, what's a better example of level design in your view from one of the other old school FPS that IM stands next to? Something from Doom or Duke 3D perhaps that you think would be something VP should take a closer look at?

[Forge]

Micky C, on 02 April 2018 - 01:47 PM, said:

On subsequent playthroughs of Ion Maiden it has become more and more clear that the levels are quite linear in their progression; the way you complete the levels, despite their relatively open and non-linear layouts. For example, you have to collect to collect keycards in a specific order instead of having the freedom to choose which one to go for first. Sure, there are several parts where you can choose from multiple hallways for example, but they all lead to the same area.

So, while the levels are non-linear on a micro scale, they're very linear on a macro scale, hampering the replay value. Will this be improved in levels in the final game?

Why, that sounds just like every Duke3d map in all the original episodes that have locks and keys.
The horror.

[Micky C]

There are some instances where you can take different routes in the original levels. In Hollywood Holocaust for example, (after getting the RPG in a pretty obvious secret), you can enter the one building from opposite sides. The only reason why it doesn't necessarily feel like macro non-linearity is because the levels are so incredibly small in those games, however this limitation is no longer the case. Whether or not such a layout extends well to a larger scale would come down to personal preference. However, keep in mind that IM is not attempting to be a 1:1 imitation of the older games, rather it takes what's best and aims to make it better with modern advancements in technology and gameplay mechanics. In the AMC TC for example, large parts of several levels can essentially be played backwards. Other levels approach an outdoor open-world level of freedom.