[Zaxx]

cybdmn, on 23 March 2018 - 09:55 AM, said:

And that fits perfectly, Duke Nukem had the Body of Arnold Schwarzenegger, the hair of Dolph Lundgren as Ivan Dragov, and Sylvester Stallones mouth. He is quoting Bruce Willis from Die Hard and Kurt Russell from Escape From New York, among others.
He is totally a 80/90 action movie Frankenstein.

And that’s what all the millenials misunderstand about the 90ies FPS, it was just more than big guns and action. It was some kind of a new subculture. And nobody back then gave a fuck about political correct.
Bombshell as how she is portrayed now, would be totally forgotten today. You had lived it in the 90ies, or you never fully understand it.

I lived in the 90s and still think that the early designs of her are super lame, the nice ideas only start appearing in the 99-2001 version. "Let's copy Barb Wire!" is not character design, that's just laziness and even if you compare that to Duke it's clear to see that Duke is actually the sum of all the classic action movie heroes while proto-Bombshell is literally Barb Wire and nothing else.

Edit: And really even the idea of using Barb Wire as inspiration is pretty embarassing. It's an absolutely terrible movie and Pamela Anderson is not a badass action heroine in BW, she's just "hey, sugartits is acting all weird and ackward with those fake guns, let's laugh at it!"

[axl]

Forge, on 22 March 2018 - 04:24 PM, said:

1997 = lara croft
1998 = pam anderson stripperella
1999 = hm fakk 2
2001 = space marine
2018 = anne lewis robocop / dredd (2012)

Héhé, that pretty much nails it.

Actually, I pretty much like all the designs... You just have to put in the right context. The 90's version of Bombshell would fit perfectly in an 80s / early 90s themed action game.

[3rdmillhouse]

90s Bombshell looks a lot to me like Nancy Callahan from Sin City.

[xMobilemux]

It's funny how everyone saying that a sexed up, leather clad, pole dancing, babe with guns would be an embarrassment today when in fact that very kind of babe is one of, if not the No 1 gaming babe today.


If Ion Maiden wasn't a Build FPS, no one would give a shit.
Also Fred pointing out and apologizing for the sexualization of those designs multiple times proves exactly what kind of developer he is. Ion Maiden will be the last 3DR product I support.

[Perro Seco]

xMobilemux, on 23 March 2018 - 05:07 PM, said:

It's funny how everyone saying that a sexed up, leather clad, pole dancing, babe with guns would be an embarrassment today when in fact that very kind of babe is one of, if not the No 1 gaming babe today.

I don't want to offend, but I think you're obssesed with the character idea. As I said before, there are lots of well known shooters that don't have even a character (Doom, Quake, etc). Why would we need a weird female character here? I'm expecting a coherent answer.

[xMobilemux]

Perro Seco, on 23 March 2018 - 05:20 PM, said:

I don't want to offend, but I think you're obssesed with the character idea. As I said before, there are lots of well known shooters that don't have even a character (Doom, Quake, etc). Why would we need a weird female character here? I'm expecting a coherent answer.

Personality wise, Doom mostly let the weapons and violence be the character, you were ripping and tearing your way through the forces of hell and Doom 4 improved on that with the Doomslayers pissed off persona.
I hate what the new God of War is doing to Kratos but Doomslayer can fill my need for a pissed off masculine power fantasy.
Ion Maiden can't do that cause the weapons so far are nothing special. Nothing bad, but nothing special.

I can't say much about Quake as I didn't play much Quake, but Half Life has a unique protagonist, a theoretical physicist who fights off alien invaders with a crowbar, how often do you see something like that? Also his look was a grey and orange suit of armor with his glasses, had some color much like the Doomguy.

To me Shelly from Bombshell 2016 had an ok look, but horrible personality as the result of a rushed attempt to make a new game out of a failed Duke Nukem game and now in Ion Maiden she just looks like some random soldier you'd take control of in a CoD game with obligatory Build Era oneliners.

I'm so obsessed with the character cause I wanted Shelly to be something new and cool in an era of bland and boring western female leads, there are so many things that could have come from building the whole game around one of those past designs.
I mean if they designed Shelly from one of those past designs, the rest of the game would be designed with that in mind, that would set up an interesting game, just makes me wonder what the themes would be, the music, the enemies, the bosses, the atmosphere, etc.

Ion Maiden has nothing noteworthy in those areas so far. I mean the final boss of the preview was just some mech.

Voidpoint is not to blame for these problems though as they are limited by the garbage world 3DR/Interceptor set up and they can't get that creative.

[MusicallyInspired]

Voidpoint's Shelly has really grown on me. It's a lot better than Interceptor's Bombshell. I don't know. I just like it. It's nothing special, but it's also nothing overtly "non-embarrassing".

[Forge]

xMobilemux, on 23 March 2018 - 06:24 PM, said:

now in Ion Maiden she just looks like some random soldier you'd take control of in a CoD game with obligatory Build Era oneliners.

I'm so obsessed with the character cause I wanted Shelly to be a rip off of bad 90s tropes

I mean if they designed Shelly from one of those past designs, the rest of the game would be designed with that in mind:

by that, I mean boob physics

[Forge]

xMobilemux, on 23 March 2018 - 05:07 PM, said:

.......a sexed up, leather clad, pole dancing, babe ..... in fact that very kind of babe is one of, if not the No 1 gaming babe today.

Exactly.
It's overused.
How about a normal, wise-cracking soldier or police officer for once, instead of an over-used cliche that belongs on some sad person's pillow case

[OpenMaw]

Let's not go there, Forge. Seriously.

I don't agree with everything that xMobilemux is saying, but I do share his sentiments with regards to the idea that there should be any "embarrassment" over the designs. What the fuck is that? It's the same mentality that transmogrified Lara Croft into the shell of her former self. Lara Croft who used to be the witty, independent, globetrotting badass. Yes, she wore her sexuality on her sleeve, but unlike her modern interpretation, she didn't need to have a bleak origin story to "become" the suave, charismatic, awesome character that she was. It was apparent in her personality and the gameplay supported that. Fred in particular has a lot of nerve to talk about embarrassment given how much of an embarrassment the initial Bombshell reveal was and how out of touch the character's design was. Looking like all the current trends were smashed into a stock poser character.

So what? Why was that ever an issue? It seems we're teaching ourselves the lesson that women can only be "badass" and independent if they are victimized and abused first. Bombshell was guilty of that. Her entire character was about being tortured and traumatized, while also trying to fuse that with the vestigial Dukeisms needed for the character. It was off putting and it just wasn't true to the concept of the character. On the whole the modern thinking reeks of thought control and in some very bad ways. "Oh God, they can't show off their butts and boobs, that's sexist... I know! We'll make them all pseudo rape victims!"

Ion Maiden does a good job on the whole of repairing the damage done to the character in Bombshell. The fact that IM is a well designed and fun experience is very important and great. However, I would be lying if I didn't say I find the design of the character leaning towards generic sci-fi space marine in nature. She fits the cyberpunkian world she resides in, that's true, but she lacks some of the contrast-y punch that her male-kin had in their other games. The BUILDbros basically resonate in their games. I don't think Shelly quite reaches that. If we're all remembering BUILD engine games, all the good ones had a character who stood out and basically grabbed a piece of pop culture real estate and made it their hunting ground for character. Ion Maiden get's the most important parts right. The gameplay, level design, consistent theme. Ion Maiden feels a tad safe. That's probably the only weakness I can honestly point to after thinking about it a lot. There's nothing really bitey or provocative about the character, or the world she lives in. Don't get me wrong. None of it is bad. Not at all. It is all very well done, but there is a distinct lack of... I don't want to say Color. Contrast, shall we say?




My final point on this is, we have no idea what Bombshell would have been like had she made it into a decent build of DNF that we could have seen. She would not have been nearly so copy and paste of "Barb Wire" any more than Duke is a copy and paste of any of the characters he was based on. This is 3D Realms we're talking about after all. They know how to do characters. Tommy, Max, Duke, Wang, Caleb.

[cybdmn]

I wouldn‘t take the criticism too serious. The Bombshell character is only one aspect of the game. In my opinion it is a fail, but what I have seen from the game in the preview, the rest is developing very well.

I for myself can live with the ccaracter, even if I would not love her, and enjoy the rest of the game, for it is what I expect when it comes to 90ies FPSes.

[xMobilemux]

When it comes to female characters I do love the sexualized ones, I ain't apologizing for that and I support any good game and developer that has a sexy and cool female lead, but in Bombshell's case I very much would have preferred her to be more akin to this design:

Makes me think of a Heavy Metal version of Lara Croft, she would have the right amount of sexy and the design would compliment a witty personality very much.
I can't get over that whip either, it was clearly a thing among the 3DR designers for a while, I wish it could have been brought to realization.

[OpenMaw]

Just a funny aside, but the image of Bombshell from 2009 in their list is actually a picture I took(scanned) from my own copy of the BOSE art book.


I'm rather fond of this one:

[necroslut]

I do love the game, but the character design is pretty bland. Not bad - and it's a huge improvement from the mess it was in Bombshell - but it's hardly iconic material. The same goes for the enemies, really.
Again, it's not bad, it's adequate, it's just pretty bland and generic, and feels more like it belongs in a B-tier 90's FPS than one of the Build classics. Personality-wise she reminds me a bit of the dude from Powerslave.

And I still do think it was a mistake to make her a brunette. Not only was the blonde hair the only trait she had kept through the years, but unlike the 90's these days brunettes are 10-to-1 to blondes and a small thing like that could have helped her stand out more.

The '98 designs (the bullet belt bikinis and that) were pretty damn bad as well though, and looked more like they would fit in in Heavy Metal FAKK rather than a Duke game.Even then, Fred's (I assume it was him) apologies and "how far we've come!" was pretty damn embarrassing to read. The idea that there is less sexualization today is just dumb, There is a ton more nudity, "adult themes", more explicit sex scenes, etc today than there was in the 90's. Back then, Duke was pretty much the only game with a strip club - these days every goddamn sandbox game has one, regardless of it fits in or not (jungle strip clubs, space strip clubs...) - it's just the over-the-top comic book stylizations that have changed into something more "realistic" and gritty.

[xMobilemux]

With Bombshell being a character action game and all I think those bullet bikinis and what not would have made good unlockable outifts like a lot of character action games have done in the past.
It makes you realize just how rare unlockable outfits are nowadays, even if they aren't charged as DLC.

[Zaxx]

xMobilemux, on 24 March 2018 - 02:37 AM, said:

With Bombshell being a character action game and all I think those bullet bikinis and what not would have made good unlockable outifts like a lot of character action games have done in the past.
It makes you realize just how rare unlockable outfits are nowadays, even if they aren't charged as DLC.

Alternate outfits are expensive to make and that's not a joke.

[Zaxx]

Commando Nukem, on 23 March 2018 - 10:27 PM, said:

She fits the cyberpunkian world she resides in, that's true, but she lacks some of the contrast-y punch that her male-kin had in their other games. The BUILDbros basically resonate in their games. I don't think Shelly quite reaches that. I[/size]f we're all remembering BUILD engine games, all the good ones had a character who stood out and basically grabbed a piece of pop culture real estate and made it their hunting ground for character. Ion Maiden get's the most important parts right. The gameplay, level design, consistent theme. Ion Maiden feels a tad safe. That's probably the only weakness I can honestly point to after thinking about it a lot. There's nothing really bitey or provocative about the character, or the world she lives in. Don't get me wrong. None of it is bad. Not at all. It is all very well done, but there is a distinct lack of... I don't want to say Color. Contrast, shall we say?

I agree, the character does not have that provocative aspect... but why would she need it? Come on, it's not the 90s anymore where showing tits and asses is considered provocative, these days that stuff is just juvenile and nothing else. When I was 8-10 years old it was awesome to play a juvenile and provocative game like Duke Nukem 3D but now, as an adult I don't need that aspect that much and not only because I matured but also because there is nothing that could come off as provocative to me at this point.

Back in the 90s this was considered sick and provocative as fuck and something that directly affected the forming of the ESRB:


In 2015 this is mild entertainment on a dull Saturday afternoon:


So really here's my question: how could a Build game with its nice little sprites and low res textures be provocative now? Everybody is watching super hardcore porn on the internet in fucking 4K, the horror genre invented every single piece of brutality and gore that the human mind could ever come up with and a random episode of South Park or Family Guy is more out there than 3D Realms titles ever were. Ion Maiden a has bit of juvenile, provocative humor in it ("we were popular when coke was cheap" and the like), those get a few chuckles out of you as they should but anything else would be dishonest and "tryhard" in this day and age. Making a game to be "90s provocative" would be the most pointless thing ever because it just wouldn't work at all. That goes for the character and the whole game itself.

[X-Vector]

MusicallyInspired, on 23 March 2018 - 04:23 AM, said:

It's so funny to me how times have changed. That stuff was empowering to women in the 90s. Since the 60s even really.

Tremendously empowering, amazing.

[Forge]

Commando Nukem, on 23 March 2018 - 10:27 PM, said:

Let's not go there, Forge. Seriously.

I don't agree with everything that xMobilemux is saying, but I do share his sentiments with regards to the idea that there should be any "embarrassment" over the designs.
Fred in particular has a lot of nerve to talk about

I will go there because I can. Free will and having an opinion still being allowed.

I don't know what this "embarrassment" line is all about that keeps getting repeated. I don't know what Fred said, and personally I don't give a damn what he said.
He should probably shut the fuck up though, before he alienates potential customers and fans.

If you base Shelly off nothing more than shallow fan-boy drool and boobs, she'll have a short shelf-life. It's over-used.
This is allegedly a prequel story, you need to establish a good base attitude and character depth before you worry about fan service with some ass & tit.
I'm about the one of least sjw people on here. I'm not promoting a conservative view of the Shelly character for 'social' reasons. Don't get the issues confused.

She does need to spice up, or get a bit more 'nasty', with her personality. But we've only been give a little bit; not really enough to judge by. Hopefully what we were exposed to isn't all of it and there's more.

(as a side note, I'm surprised somebody already hasn't nuded up the game's splash screen, made her naked & holding a dildo, then posted it all over reddit)

[NightFright]

It's interesting to see where this discussion suddenly went. However, I'd prefer to read more about the game.

[Forge]

NightFright, on 24 March 2018 - 06:07 AM, said:

It's interesting to see where this discussion suddenly went. However, I'd prefer to read more about the game.

having a strong, relatable character is part of the game

Caleb didn't have to walk around in a speedo to be a memorable character.
Just because Shelly has tits doesn't mean she needs to walk around like a Duke stripper wearing pasties to be memorable.

[Zaxx]

Forge, on 24 March 2018 - 06:14 AM, said:

Caleb didn't have to walk around in a speedo to be a memorable character.

And if you think about it Caleb was not an "edgelord" at all, the only thing in Blood that could be considered provocative was the amount of gore. By today's standards that aspect is mild compared to what you see in a Mortal Kombat game or in Brutal Doom yet somehow Blood is still a super enjoyable FPS and a lot more people think of Caleb as a character who is more memorable than the original Lo Wang.

[cybdmn]

Zaxx, on 24 March 2018 - 04:49 AM, said:

Come on, it's not the 90s anymore

You know which game we are talking about?

[cosmonautcowboy]

Zaxx, on 23 March 2018 - 09:07 AM, said:

I love how 3DR says that the early versions of the Bombshell design were "inspired by" Barb Wire. It IS Barb Wire, lol.

Yeah, the 1997 one is pretty much the comics Barb Wire, and the 1998 one is Pam Anderson. The face even looks like her. Pretty cool to see all those designs and imagine what might have been.

[Zaxx]

cosmonautcowboy, on 24 March 2018 - 07:23 AM, said:

Yeah, the 1997 one is pretty much the comics Barb Wire, and the 1998 one is Pam Anderson. The face even looks like her. Pretty cool to see all those designs and imagine what might have been.

Just to clarify: when I said Barb Wire I meant the movie with Pam Anderson, this one:

I know next to nothing about the BW comics.

[Forge]

stripperella
(also voice-acted by pam anderson)

[cosmonautcowboy]

Zaxx, on 24 March 2018 - 08:55 AM, said:

Just to clarify: when I said Barb Wire I meant the movie with Pam Anderson, this one:

I know next to nothing about the BW comics.

Yep, I understood. Most people aren't aware of the comic book.



The comic book is a bit different in that Barb is a normal person, but she's going up against people with superpowers. It was part of Dark Horse Comics' short-lived universe in the early/mid 90s. Most of the characters have completely faded away, the only ones that had any staying power were Ghost and Barb Wire. I like the movie for what it is, but I'm under no illusions that it's a good film. It never occurred to me that it was a deliberate rip-off of Casablanca until someone brought it up on a forum years later.

Forge, on 24 March 2018 - 09:22 AM, said:

stripperella
(also voice-acted by pam anderson)

It's been a while and I never watched the show, but wasn't Stripperella much later? So it wouldn't have been an influence on any of those designs, right? At least not the 1998 ones. Have you seen the show? Is it worth checking out? As I recall it was credited to Stan Lee, of all people.

Anyhow, back on topic...as it relates to the current Bombshell and Ion Maiden, I like the character design we have. On the other hand, it would be cool to see a game go with this totally 90s, Pam Anderson inspired look. We've seen a couple examples of games that fly in the face of the current conventions being financially successful, so it could work.

[Zaxx]

cosmonautcowboy, on 24 March 2018 - 01:44 PM, said:

snip

Yeah, Stripperella was later than most of the Bombshell-designs, around 2004-2005 if I remember correctly. I watched a few episodes, it never won me over.

[Forge]

stripperella was basically a continuation of the pam anderson bimbo-hero shctick. An animated version of Barb Wire, more or less. (at least inspired by barb wire)
I wouldn't watch it on purpose. Not with the volume on.

Barb Wire was bad enough. Rehashing it 7 years later didn't improve it. Another 15 years isn't going to make it age any better.

[cosmonautcowboy]

Forge, on 24 March 2018 - 02:19 PM, said:

stripperella was basically a continuation of the pam anderson bimbo-hero shctick. An animated version of Barb Wire, more or less. (at least inspired by barb wire)
I wouldn't watch it on purpose. Not with the volume on.

Barb Wire was bad enough. Rehashing it 7 years later didn't improve it. Another 15 years isn't going to make it age any better.

I don't doubt it! Not that I'm above it, though. I'm not gonna lie, I watched plenty of episodes of goofy syndicated series V.I.P.