[Plagman]

Sobek, on Jul 19 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

Oh right, I forgot to mention - I'm having no luck getting Normal Maps to work. I've got them generated just fine, and I've defined them exactly as they should be (even compared the def code I used to that of other normal maps already in the Polymer HRP), yet I don't get any normal maps for anything ingame. I tried enabling the parallax override command and tweaking things in game but there was still absolutely no effect, and my logfile shows no errors whatsoever (bar the IFSOUND errors generated if I use DukePlus).

In the ROR test map, I also don't have transparent water, it's just the dirty stock 8bit water texture...

Any thoughts? I'm running a 2900xt on my work machine so obviously there's the chance of issues with ATi cards, but I can't see any obvious faults - I'm using the Catalyst 9.6 / 9.7 drivers too (tried both).

There shouldn't be any issues with a 2900XT. Please post your normal maps and the definitions you used. Note that plain normal maps won't look any different unless the surface is lit. You need a height map in the alpha channel for them to add a parallaxing effect and for the parallax override variables/definitions to do anything.

[Sobek]

Plagman, on Jul 20 2009, 04:51 AM, said:

There shouldn't be any issues with a 2900XT. Please post your normal maps and the definitions you used. Note that plain normal maps won't look any different unless the surface is lit. You need a height map in the alpha channel for them to add a parallaxing effect and for the parallax override variables/definitions to do anything.

Not a problem. Attached is a downsized version of my normal map (simply downsizing won't compromise it, right? Didn't want to post a 5mb PNG if I could help it). The def code I'm using on the model is as follows;

// Battlestar Galactica (9990)
model "highres/sprites/props/BSG.md3" {
   scale 20 shade 10
   skin { pal 0 surface 0 file "highres/sprites/props/BSG.png" nocompress nodownsize }
   normal { pal 0 surface 0 file "highres/sprites/props/BSG_N.png" parallaxbias 0 parallaxscale 0.1 }
   skin { pal 0 surface 1 file "highres/sprites/props/BSG2.png" nocompress nodownsize }
   skin { pal 0 surface 2 file "highres/sprites/props/BSG3.png" nocompress nodownsize }
   frame { name "Frame0" tile 9990 }
}

I added the 'surface 0' to the normal code recently just to see if it was being applied wrongly elsewhere, it made no difference. The thing is, it's not just my model. Even those textures in the HRP with their normals defined and present don't have any applied ingame... At the moment I'm using Nvidias normalmap generation plugin for Photoshop. My texture has the 3 RGB channels and a seperate ALPHA channel (solid black). I set the plugin to generate height data to the normal map via the alpha channel (sorry I'm being rather simplistic here), so I can only assume it's generating things correctly at that point.

It just seems that everything except the normal mapping works fine. Oh and the water as in the ROR map, not sure what's up there, it looks like this for me;



If I recall correctly, it's supposed to be transparent... I believe it was TX that originally posted a screenshot of it somewhere.

Attached thumbnail(s)

• 

[staffcarguy]

hhmmm looking at that picture makes me think and wonder.

would it be possible to make water reflective and refract (is that the correct word? i always seem to forget.) the things bellow the surface and vice versa? Just suggesting it if it hasn't already (since this is the polymer thread i figured this would be the best place to mention a suggest / idea, if it is not the right place then i apologize.)

being able to see the surface / bottom has been proven possible through duke plus.

also great work guys I've been following this thread since its early stages, and I'm quite impressed with what i see being done so keep it up!

[Sobek]

Kinda like this?;



Plagman posted it some time back on the 3dr thread for Polymer.

It sure got my pants wet.

[staffcarguy]

Sobek, on Jul 19 2009, 11:28 PM, said:

Kinda like this?;



Plagman posted it some time back on the 3dr thread for Polymer.

It sure got my pants wet.

haha yep that's what i had in mind i guess i must of just missed it or forgot about it

[Roma Loom]

[quote name='Sobek' post='24303' date='Jul 20 2009, 04:52 AM'
If I recall correctly, it's supposed to be transparent... I believe it was TX that originally posted a screenshot of it somewhere.[/quote]
The PNG you've attached doesn't have an alpha channel. Also the normalmap itself is way too dull. Set the greater scale in NVidia Normal Map Filter.

[Sobek]

Roma Loom, on Jul 20 2009, 06:26 PM, said:

The PNG you've attached doesn't have an alpha channel. Also the normalmap itself is way too dull. Set the greater scale in NVidia Normal Map Filter.

Odd, it has an alpha channel present when I go to generate the normal map, and it lets me choose to add height to the normal map via the alpha channel... I don't see why the alpha would just vanish once it's created. But it doesn't really change the fact that none of the other textures that have normal maps (those already in the Polymer HRP) don't show any normal mapping at all. Something is definitely 'broken' for me.

*edit* Nothing I do lets Photoshop maintain the alpha channel in the PNG file... DDS? Sure, the alpha channel stays. But if I try and use PNG it just vanishes after saving, if I try and add it in later, it complains that the image format doesn't support what I'm trying to do (RGB + Alpha channels). I'm no good at normal maps so if you have any suggestions my mind is wide open.

The normal map I posted does look somewhat flat and useless, but that's just because it's downsized. At the original size, there's some very strong definition present. If I scale it much higher, it starts to look like a real mess...

[Roma Loom]

Oh wait... I haven't noticed you are trying to apply normal map upon a model - is it already implemented in latest polymer builds? My version still doesn't have this feature, it works only for the level textures.

Also for working with PNG alpha channel directly google the SuperPNG plugin. The only thing where it fails - some of 8bit PNGs in HRP...

[zchri9]

Roma Loom,

Wondering, are you working on anything for Duke3D at the moment?

[Plagman]

As Roma Loom pointed out normal maps don't work on models yet, it's not a specific issue on your end.
And yeah, Photoshop is a real bitch when it comes to PNGs with alpha channels. Good luck with that.

Edit: oh, and RoR isn't implemented in Polymer yet. That screenshot I posted shows that it works, but it's not accessible to the end-user yet. These two things are pretty much next on my list.

[Roma Loom]

zchri9, on Jul 20 2009, 01:52 PM, said:

Roma Loom,

Wondering, are you working on anything for Duke3D at the moment?

http://romaloom.ho.c...1102_normal.png

[Fantinaikos]

Well water surely be transparent whit this PL buids, but for the toxic and acid pools? I don't think I have ever seen a limpid acid or toxic liquid maybe you could add smoke or more lighting...

[Sobek]

Plagman, on Jul 20 2009, 09:47 PM, said:

As Roma Loom pointed out normal maps don't work on models yet, it's not a specific issue on your end.
And yeah, Photoshop is a real bitch when it comes to PNGs with alpha channels. Good luck with that.

Edit: oh, and RoR isn't implemented in Polymer yet. That screenshot I posted shows that it works, but it's not accessible to the end-user yet. These two things are pretty much next on my list.

Sounds very tasty, I await those things anxiously

Is normal mapping disabled completely at the moment, or not? I only ask because, while it's clear now that I can't use it on models, I still don't have ANY normal maps working on ingame textures, more specifically those that are included with the Polymer HRP. Is there any reason these wouldn't work?

[Roma Loom]

normal/parallax mapping works for me, my eduke32 version is dated by June 18.

[Chip]

*Not polymer related*

Yesterday I tried making one of my actors change palette via a random chance. Sounds easy right? - just use ifnd or randvar?
Well here's the problem, I've used these within "eventloadactor" so it happens before the actor is alerted (as that'll look stupid seeing my actor change colour before your eyes) but then I noticed something which ruins everything - the randvar / ifrnd / basically the random number generater isn't very random at all.

The EXACT same actor will always be the different coloured one. In my test map, in the 3rd room, the actor near the back wall will ALWAYS be the coloured one!
No matter how many times I restarted the map or even restart the game the random number generator makes that actor the coloured one.
I don't know much about random number generators but from this I could assume that its a series of numbers that are fixed into the source code and the game just moves along these numbers every tic or once a number has been called and it starts at the first number upon map fully load.

Unfortunately this makes things predictable and have noticed this in the past but shrugged it off as super coninsidence but now it sticks out and its ruining my "random encounter" of this colour change.
Is there anyway around this by using some other form of "random numbering" or / and are there plans to make this generator more random? Perhaps not have it restart upon each map and let it continue where it left off? Have it start active right from the first intro movie since its not humanly possible to run through the movies and start a game at the exact tic of a second each time, or have it start a number ahead based on the seconds and milli seconds of the computer's clock or something.

Again, I don't know anything about random number generators so I don't know if anything can be done or if anyone actually wants to do anything about it.
It would be really helpful and fun to not have things set so fixed for something meant to be random.

[Fox]

Duke use a pseudo-random value. Lost likely a counter (for example: 23, 64, 2, 7) which will always be more or less random since the player's choices will influence it... unless you set it before the player moves.

I don't know what you could do. Maybe you can use that feature that gets your personal computer day/time? =P

[Jimmy]

Yeah, it actually isn't random. In layman's terms, and from what I've understood, the game just has this sequence of "random numbers" that run from the start of the game to the end. When you use a "random" command in Eduke, it really just waits for the "random" number to appear, and if it doesn't it does something else. Again, I haven't looked at the source to see how it works, but that's how I understand it.

[Jblade]

I asked before but - what causes this error in multi:

network: ERROR: Two players have the same random ID!
network: ERROR: Please restart the game to generate new IDs.
  ...closing socket...

and is there a way to stop it from happening?

[Lord Misfit]

Chip, on Jul 22 2009, 10:39 AM, said:

*Not polymer related*

Yesterday I tried making one of my actors change palette via a random chance. Sounds easy right? - just use ifnd or randvar?
Well here's the problem, I've used these within "eventloadactor" so it happens before the actor is alerted (as that'll look stupid seeing my actor change colour before your eyes) but then I noticed something which ruins everything - the randvar / ifrnd / basically the random number generater isn't very random at all.

The EXACT same actor will always be the different coloured one. In my test map, in the 3rd room, the actor near the back wall will ALWAYS be the coloured one!
No matter how many times I restarted the map or even restart the game the random number generator makes that actor the coloured one.
I don't know much about random number generators but from this I could assume that its a series of numbers that are fixed into the source code and the game just moves along these numbers every tic or once a number has been called and it starts at the first number upon map fully load.

Unfortunately this makes things predictable and have noticed this in the past but shrugged it off as super coninsidence but now it sticks out and its ruining my "random encounter" of this colour change.
Is there anyway around this by using some other form of "random numbering" or / and are there plans to make this generator more random? Perhaps not have it restart upon each map and let it continue where it left off? Have it start active right from the first intro movie since its not humanly possible to run through the movies and start a game at the exact tic of a second each time, or have it start a number ahead based on the seconds and milli seconds of the computer's clock or something.

Again, I don't know anything about random number generators so I don't know if anything can be done or if anyone actually wants to do anything about it.
It would be really helpful and fun to not have things set so fixed for something meant to be random.

I don't know if this will help you like it did me, but I sorta noticed this behavior some times ago because I have certain things in my mod that are also semi-randomized. If I recall, the following bit of code was given to be by Hunter_rus back on 3DR about 1-2 years ago.

I put this at the end of EVENT_ENTERLEVEL

 ifmultiplayer break
 // De-Pseudo
 gamevar TMP 0 131072
 readgamevar numruns
 addvar numruns 1 
 andvar numruns 65535 
 setvarvar TMP numruns 
 xorvar TMP 43690 
 whilevarn TMP 0 
 { 
  ifrnd 1 { }
  subvar TMP 1 
 } 
 savegamevar numruns

It will require those vars like TMP, numruns, etc. The most important thing is the "ifrnd 1 { }" part. It saves the "numruns" var and I assume it makes the number generator cycle a few times at startup of a map depending on the amount of times you've played a map or game. So try it out for a while and see if it helps. o.o

Also, if you use the DNCOORDS cheat, you'll see a value with the coordinates called "SEED" and you'll notice it's always changing. I'm sure that's the psuedo-random number generator in action.

[Chip]

Quote

It saves the "numruns" var and I assume it makes the number generator cycle a few times at startup of a map depending on the amount of times you've played a map or game. So try it out for a while and see if it helps. o.o

That's basically what I thought up today at work - randvar a number and save it out of the game (using that save to external file command which i read about some time ago) and use that to randvar pointless times equal to number number written (so it jumps up the RNG a few times) after which re-write that saved number for next time.

I was hoping there was a better and more practical solution but thanks guys

[Gambini]

Polymer Bug Report

There is one nice detail that mappers use to do, making a narrow sector with maskwalls and dropping down the ceiling with parallax can be usefull for good looking fences or gates, even 3d looking doors if you also parallax the floor. Well, this isnt working in polymer, and instead a these maskwalls seem to go all along the sector until the top and or down. Alejandro Glavic´s maps, Roch series, some maps of mine and many others have make use of this trick (in Fusion TC redux the railways use it), so i think it´s worth to be fixed.

Also, Dukeplus´s disable model feature isnt working.

[Skulldog]

Can the new mapster32 work with all the Build Games? Or is it just for Eduke32 Maps.

[Sangman]

It might work with other games as well as long as they have a GRP with ART files in them (with appropriate names, Tiles###.art) and if you rename the GRP to Duke3D.grp

Shadow Warrior has a GRP file that has ART files, try renaming that one and using it with Mapster

[supergoofy]

for shadow warrior get:
http://www.proasm.co.../SwpBuild12.zip

SwpBuild is a Build editor for JFSW using SWP

[Skulldog]

It Works with Shadow Warrior. Does not work with Blood the colors are all wrong.

[Master Fibbles]

Blood probably has a different palette.

[Skulldog]

Even with the palette.dat from blood, the colors are all wrong. I'll just use the mapedit program that came with it.
I really like Mapster32, it makes things so easy on duke3d maps. Shadow Warrior looks like it will work, but it looks like it will need a names.h file of its own. So I will use the swpbuild for now. Thanks!

[Jimmy]

I think Mapster also works with Redneck Rampage.

[Sobek]

I was just wondering if in Mapster, the point lights might get a radius sphere like the sound effect range has? Obviously it can't factor in height / depth, but with a little intuition and ingame comparison, it wouldn't be hard to guess how high and low it's going to reach.

It'd just be nice to be able to see what each of your lights is (very roughly) covering at a glance, which could probably help pinpoint potential issues with overlapping lights.

[The Commander]

Captain Awesome, on Jul 25 2009, 01:30 PM, said:

I think Mapster also works with Redneck Rampage.

Also works for Tek War if you change the palette's of course.