[ck3D]

LeoD, on 23 August 2014 - 04:40 AM, said:

Considering the size of our community (although it seems to have grown a bit recently thanks to Megaton), I think mapping for Duke3D should be for fun. Or satisfaction to reach a certain goal. The maximum possible amount of recognition is just limited here. If I cared about appreciation I'd have ceased contributing long ago, or at least radically changed my way of posting. We just love Duke3D, but not all of us in the same way, do we?

i fully agree with you on that one. which is exactly why i don't really get it when people refer to unambitious maps as regression. to me there is no bar to raise ! just sheer fun to be had with each and every map regardless of the amount of work that went into their respective makings. reading the comments in certain threads sometimes, to me it (occasionally) seems like some people are just bitter that they like to put insane amounts of work detailing their great maps, subconsciously expecting everyone else to do the same (for whatever reason) or that it's how, in 2014, it 'should be done' ; then whenever a more basic-looking map comes out, and gets more feedback or general attention or whatever - they feel the urge to chime in and remind everyone that there are more complex maps out of there, thereby neglecting the idea that regardless of how basic a map can be, it's almost always just as fun to play, if not more.

i just fail to see the fun in this type of outlook on playing / mapping, so i have to be just as much of a party pooper and chime in to whine about it myself. actually in reality, i try not to just whine about it, and offer my own perspective on how more laid-back i think duke mapping should be sometimes. but really, it might just be the way i perceive things and i am probably mistaken in the first place. if anything it is just all food for thought in order to make for interesting discussions, or so i think. those forums need some form of constructive activity ! i am also fully aware that everyone has their own tastes and opinions as far as maps go, and the type of layouts and aesthetics they like. i am not trying to address that point, not only because everyone is entitled to their own (and rightfully so), but also because diversity is the most beautiful thing. i can only encourage people to keep doing the stuff they already are digging, and always expand from it !

also, the feedback issue is also why i personally try my best to comment on every new map that gets released that i get to play, even if that means i have to go out of my way sometimes. i think feedback is an important contribution to the well-being of the community and shouldn't be overlooked.

Mark., on 23 August 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

Every now and then I think about how my very ambitious Graveyard project will suffer the " here today, gone tomorrow " scenario. But then I look back at the hundreds of hours on and off between other projects over the last two years and I realise how much fun its been for me. Plus I have learned a lot more mapping skills, especially the use of effects. I honed my skills in model creation and con coding. So even after my 15 minutes of fame ( I hope ) it will not have felt like wasted time.

please keep at it. i am sure it will be 100% worth the wait and plenty of good elements will be remembered from your work. every map has its place and i am looking forward to playing yours !

Artem Nevinchany, on 23 August 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

That moment when actually, the topic is about my map
(...)
Gonna have a piece of my opinion in your discussion. First, this map is less detailed cos I wanted to remake the original map (E3L3) as close as it possible without copying. Second, you should pay attention to the gameplay. It's so stupid wrong to compare this map with It Lives. There are different ideas, design and... gameplay. Flood Area considered to be a "fun map" like shoot-n-run. I think, this map also good in multiplayer.

no, your map itself is great. the ongoing discussion is merely a side discussion, if anything.

[brullov]

Yeah, but my topic seems to be discussed about my work. Am I right?
I don't worry that you have so big conversation, but it would be great to make separate topic.

[Mike Norvak]

An admin should move some of the comments to a new topic.

[ck3D]

Artem Nevinchany, on 25 August 2014 - 03:33 AM, said:

Yeah, but my topic seems to be discussed about my work. Am I right?
I don't worry that you have so big conversation, but it would be great to make separate topic.

not really. it is more like your work is engendering a deeper discussion that goes so far as beyond its specific qualities. i would take that at a good sign, actually ; and if anything, it only means that more people are going to be bound to pay attention to your map. i see your point about the seperate topic though.

[brullov]

ck3D, on 26 August 2014 - 01:25 AM, said:

not really. it is more like your work is engendering a deeper discussion that goes so far as beyond its specific qualities. i would take that at a good sign, actually ; and if anything, it only means that more people are going to be bound to pay attention to your map. i see your point about the seperate topic though.

I just don't like a mess. Everything must be on its place, cos people can get confused.

[NNC]

ck3D, on 23 August 2014 - 03:06 AM, said:

Micky C - if 'another It Lives' were to come out nowadays, i am pretty sure it would go close to unnoticed and people would forget about it a week later. sorry for plugging in my own work again but it is - for obvious reasons - what i can personally relate to the best as far as illustrating this type of situation goes : the last 'ambitious' map i released was bummed out.map (anarchy city x). while not the most ambitious level ever, it was definitely on the detailed / modern-looking side, and took me months to make (plus i could only work on it on and off which made the process even more chaotic on my end as the author). when i finally released it, barely anyone paid attention to it, then just a few days later it had already blended into oblivion amidst all the other levels that get released only to go through the exact same treatment regardless of the amount of effort that was put into its making. even though i tried to make it different gameplay-wise, so that it would stand out, to everyone else it ended up being just 'yet another modern-looking map you have fun roaming around in once before letting your hard drive phagocyte it for good or at least, unless someone mentions it on a message board six years later and you remember it from way back when' (or so i assume).

maps that make use of some of the fancy modern features (ie. TROR) take even longer - or at the very least, are even more complex - to make than how most of the 'detailed' maps that were made a few years ago, including It Lives. according to your logic that ambition in level-making is important, their respective authors would deserve just as much credit, if not more. however the truth is, those maps just get played once or twice and fade into oblivion as well just as much as the next one. in fact if anything, the less aesthetically ambitious, so-called 3DR-styled levels get more attention - probably because they are more light-hearted and fun to play, thus more memorable and with a higher replay value. performance for the sake of performance will always be inferior to sheer fun in a context of entertainment.

were i to remember certain releases from this past year and think of them as landmarks, maps like slum noir or this one, or projects such as duke hard would be the first ones to come to mind. not maps like bobsp 4 or entrapped - no disrespect to their respective authors intended because they obviously have talent and every map has its place. i just feel like some of the most ambitious levels are only good to have around just so that people know that they are there and available, if anything. some of them aren't even fully playable even on modern set-ups ! their sole existence itself are their main sense of purpose. whereas some other maps are not only there, but also fun to play. not everyone can pull off a good, classic map - but i would definitely prioritize entertainment over technical prowess. the question is trickier than it might seem - so maybe i should just shut up for once and go try finishing my own map in order to stay somewhat relevant - whatever that may mean - instead of arguing over the whole ordeal.

You actually admit here that I was right (or better said: ahead of time) in those "AMC pleaser" debates when I said classic style will win out because of the essence of the game. Although I have to agree, the community did the better, when they explored those things before coming back to the roots. But I still say: I'm not against modern looking maps and great visuals, but the properly done classic style is what keeps this 18 year old game still alive, since the whole engine is working better that way. On the other hand I still think the legendary Red 3 was the greatest "new" addition to the game, which style (eerie, scary, ambient stuff) wasn't explored in the original. And that really added a lot to the community. Just my 2 cents.

[NNC]

OK, I've played the map, and honestly I'm not a fan of it. Sure, it has a homage to Flood Zone and to lesser extent The Abyss, but the map feels mostly empty and boring. 3DRealms style doesn't mean emptyness, and idle wandering around, but active gameplay (including atmospheric, less action packed exploration) without major interruptions. This map basically revealed all of itself barring the keycard parts early on, but also in an annoying nonlinear way. While interconnection and less linearity are part of the Duke 3D experience, it doesn't mean you have to encounter most enemies and places early on and get confused by it. It means you have to reveal the areas gradually with unlocking doors etc, and that often results in a "yay, I was here 5 minutes ago" experience. The leveldesign in this level is mostly dull and the scale is way to high with lots of oversized and empty areas. There are very few shadows as well, and most places don't make any sense, like the "hi tech" area with the Battlelords. The finding of the first key also makes the rest of the map very predictable, as there are no real gameplay behind the key doors, just a boring way to find another key. So I have to say this is not a hot map within' my standards, a nice retro blast, but nothing extraordinary...

[brullov]

Nancsi, on 28 August 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

OK, I've played the map, and honestly I'm not a fan of it. Sure, it has a homage to Flood Zone and to lesser extent The Abyss, but the map feels mostly empty and boring. 3DRealms style doesn't mean emptyness, and idle wandering around, but active gameplay (including atmospheric, less action packed exploration) without major interruptions. This map basically revealed all of itself barring the keycard parts early on, but also in an annoying nonlinear way. While interconnection and less linearity are part of the Duke 3D experience, it doesn't mean you have to encounter most enemies and places early on and get confused by it. It means you have to reveal the areas gradually with unlocking doors etc, and that often results in a "yay, I was here 5 minutes ago" experience. The leveldesign in this level is mostly dull and the scale is way to high with lots of oversized and empty areas. There are very few shadows as well, and most places don't make any sense, like the "hi tech" area with the Battlelords. The finding of the first key also makes the rest of the map very predictable, as there are no real gameplay behind the key doors, just a boring way to find another key. So I have to say this is not a hot map within' my standards, a nice retro blast, but nothing extraordinary...

Yea. Thats my first experience in oldschool style, next time I gonna map harder. Glad you played!

[m210®]

Yeah, it's good map I love classic style, and Flood zone was my favorite level in childhood

[Merlijn]

I've played this, it was a nice map. I can see where Nancsi is coming from though, the level feels a bit empty and it stays a bit too close to the original Flood zone IMO (I had the same problem with Submerged zone from the Metropolian Mayhem level). It could have used a bit more of its own identity, the concept of a flooded city opens up so many possibilities.

However, I know it was made in 3 days so perhaps I'm just too picky. And make no mistake, this is still a well-made map and I enjoyed playing it. So thanks for sharing it. If you make a sequel, you could try to expand upon the theme.

[NNC]

Just a little offtopic, but I think the most original flooded city level might be "Old LA on Ice" from LRWB TC.

[Jan Satcitananda]

multipost removed

[Jan Satcitananda]

Do something original Artem. Unfortunately, this map is rushed and inconsistent. Certain areas are clearly oversized, others are just ideas from 3DR maps done in a sloppy manner with little or no detail/style. It's not a hottie Mikko, not even close.
Don't hurry. Work on your next project a bit longer until you see that it's something you'd wish to share with us.

[Blue Lightning]

I'm just now DL'ing some older maps on this thread, that I didn't see at Duke Repository.

This is simply one of the best maps I ever played. I don't understand some of the negative comments I have seen. I guess everyone is different? Me personally, I think well designed maps with an original flavor are by far the most fun, like this one is. I was not bored, not even for a second. And I cant say that about a lot of maps that I have played.

Vanilla style and wide open, allowing the player to choose where he wants to go and what he wants to do first, which is much like Flood Zone. The routing here is very good. Also, the map very challenging, with a lot of tough battle action. And the map has secret places that are excruciatingly hard to get to. I don't see a lot of Flood Zone type maps, so this one was a nice surprise.

I'm just wondering...

Spoiler

I couldn't find a jetpack in the level. I did get to the Atomic health cave by jumping on top of a fat commander (very dangerous) and darting into the cave. I also could see a cave that a bunch of fat commanders came out of earlier, and it has some pipe bombs. It's real high up though. I suppose I have to jump on enemies to reach it?

And finally,

Spoiler

the secret room high up in a building is accessible by a window (I guess jump on enemies to get to it?) There is a Devastator in there so I really want to get to it.
There is an adjoining room with a red key card. The doorway from that red key-card room to the secret room is a girl on a steroid poster. But I pressed everywhere on that poster, and it won't open. The light switch doesn't seem to help either. Am I to assume that the poster cannot be opened from that side? and does that mean you have to get through the window to get in? There is a switch in the secret room that opens the poster-door, but I could not figure out how to shoot the switch from the fans on top of the building across the way...the fans are not high enough.

Anyway, lots to explore and a lot of good fun!

[Forge]

Blue Lightning, on 29 September 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

This is simply one of the best maps I ever played.

Holy Crap! you actually play the game and can leave constructive feedback?

[Blue Lightning]

Sure. You hate my posts on the other forum because you disagree with my politics. But gaming is gaming.

[High Treason]

Blue Lightning, on 29 September 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

But gaming is gaming.

Actually, it's not. People can get very defensive about their preferred platform, their favorite hardware and software vendors not to mention their opinions if they believe them to be fact... Usually the latter happens when they realize they don't have much to back that up with so they get angry and try to make out that you are somehow the problem instead of their crappy argument that they started in the first place - all the while failing to back up their original argument or their newer, weaker one, with any actual facts whatsoever.

Roland/3DFX/IBM fans are probably best at this kind of thing. Suggest to them that you find Leisure Suit Larry runs better for you on a clone system using TSeng VGA and a Yamaha device and they will start flipping their shit.

An example would be when I got bored and riled a few Vogons users up... Not exactly a difficult feat. Not the avoidance of challenges and facts brought forward, they're always on the attack. Finally they destroy their own arguments "You're not using it right" regarding the MT-32 followed by "It was designed for Piano Accompaniment" implying they really aren't using it right.

The most amusing one probably has to be;

Quote

Yamaha, Creative and Roland are still around. GUS / AdLib and so on all bit the dust and are gone. That tells it all.

In a terrible attempt to counter an argument I put forth. He obviously fails to realize that AdLib cards were simply a way of interfacing a PC to a Yamaha chip and that Creative only properly got into the market by using that same chip and sticking a poor quality DSP and a DAC on the same card... I wasn't dignifying that with a response.

One or two guys, notably the first guy to respond to it, are civilized though and obviously are fine with other people having differing opinions to themselves.


-----

This map... Seems OK, haven't had chance to mess with it much yet, I was about to and ended up doing something else. I'll report back when I'm done.

[Blue Lightning]

I just now beat it on Damn I'm Good, which is an amazing feat on this map! It is very hard on DIG, just like I like it!

It is not as difficult on DIG as map 8 or 9 of Metropolitan Mayhem, or not as difficult on DIG as Hell Station. But it is damn close to that hard. The author of this Flood map gives the player enough resources to survive on DIG, but only just, which makes it a nice challenge.
Weapons that destroy bodies (a must on DIG) are in good enough supply, and even better supply if you can get to a few of the ridiculously hard-to-get-to secret places. However, the author is fairly stingy on health, which is just want you want on DIG! No med packs (which are not needed since the map isn't real long like Hell Station or map 8 and 9 of Metro Mayhem, and due to the fact that you can sometimes escape enemies by going underwater), and a few well placed health bottles...but only a few. This meant I was usually low on health and under pressure. And that makes playing it on DIG much fun!

Again much thanks for this map, it stays on my hard drive!

Spoiler

(PS. I like the "F U C K" message in the secret cave with the Atomic health and Shrinker!)

[NNC]

Don't confuse vanilla style with average leveldesign with recycled ideas. For example I consider the Daikarin episode as vanilla in the way that it's very faithful to the game's original roots, despite having some non vanilla parts like new textures. The same can be said about LRWB TC, which had even more new textures/art (mostly based on originals), even some modified enemies (based on LameDuke), but as an experience, it's clearly vanilla, and has an atmosphere of the original episodes. I have a faded memory about Metropolitan Mayhem, but I love the later levels more despite them being further from the so called 3DRealms style. And just for the record, I think Hell Station is really just the poor man's Occuppied Territory. Silent, not well shaded, skimpy on enemies especially at the level's second half, misaligned textures here and there, and so on. I don't understand why it's the most popular map of the author, because all the others by Pipeline are clearly superior (especially Doomcity and Suburbia).

I see your point BL when you prefer the game's original style better, I share your views strongly and don't play Roch etc. style levels anymore, but it doesn't mean that levels that look better than average are all bad, because they are not vanilla enough.

[MetHy]

Nancsi, on 01 October 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

Don't confuse vanilla style with average leveldesign with recycled ideas. For example I consider the Daikarin episode as vanilla in the way that it's very faithful to the game's original roots, despite having some non vanilla parts like new textures. The same can be said about LRWB TC, which had even more new textures/art (mostly based on originals), even some modified enemies (based on LameDuke), but as an experience, it's clearly vanilla, and has an atmosphere of the original episodes. I have a faded memory about Metropolitan Mayhem, but I love the later levels more despite them being further from the so called 3DRealms style. And just for the record, I think Hell Station is really just the poor man's Occuppied Territory. Silent, not well shaded, skimpy on enemies especially at the level's second half, misaligned textures here and there, and so on. I don't understand why it's the most popular map of the author, because all the others by Pipeline are clearly superior (especially Doomcity and Suburbia).

I see your point BL when you prefer the game's original style better, I share your views strongly and don't play Roch etc. style levels anymore, but it doesn't mean that levels that look better than average are all bad, because they are not vanilla enough.

You seem to confuse 'vanilla' with 'classic'. The definition of vanilla is default 'unmodified', so every Roch maps are vanilla, but Daikarin and Metropolitan Mayhem are not.

This map would be both vanilla and classic-style.

[NNC]

MetHy, on 01 October 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

You seem to confuse 'vanilla' with 'classic'. The definition of vanilla is default 'unmodified', so every Roch maps are vanilla, but Daikarin and Metropolitan Mayhem are not.

This map would be both vanilla and classic-style.

Technically, a user map is a modification to the game in the same way as user art or user sounds are, With this strict term nothing is vanilla other than the original game.

But these are just words anyway, so I don't think calling classic 3DRealms style maps as vanilla even with new art etc are really that blasphemous.

[Micky C]

While that's true, Methy's description makes more sense.

If you want to be that technical about it, just call it a "vanilla map" to show that nothing extra comes included with the map.

[Blue Lightning]

I call any original style map with no new textures "vanilla" or "original". To me they are the same thing. But I'm not a modder or anything, just a player.

As far as Hell Station, I think it is an excellent map and not a poor man's Occupied Territory. In the beginning you have almost too many enemies, but after you get to parts of the map where they are more scarce (which gives me a chance to scrounge and rest a bit), suddenly you will hit a part (the fast elevator) where enemies are numerous again. I like the pacing in HS, and I really like the map design.

Being a sucker for a good lunar map (my favorite kind due to the atmosphere), I found Hell Station to have some nice atmosphere due to areas that you can see out into space, and in some of these places, some good shadowing effects. I must of missed the misaligned textures, as it all looks very clean to me. There are even a few parts where you can see outward, with nice ambience, where I can hear the wind sounds (although it could of used that element in a few more sectors than it did).

The Lunar maps...Probably the same reason why I love Bioshock so much..the cold lonely-ness of the bottom of the ocean is like space. It's that atmosphere!

When I first played Hell Station I was hating it due to the huge enemy numbers in the beginning, but once I learned how to handle them, it became fun. Weapon placement in HS couldn't be better, and the fact you can route exploit in a few places (like jumping on an Octabrain to get to the upper level of the center part long before your supposed to) made it even more fun. If there are errors on the map, (and I believe Nancsi since Nancsi is a pro map maker and I'm just a player), the fun factor is so good that I missed them. At least that's my opinion of the map for what it's worth.

Anyway, Back to this Flood map...

What I am concerned about is that only 1 or 2 people before me even commented that they liked this Flood map. I am concerned that Artem Nevinchany might get the wrong idea and think everyone hates the map, when there are players (like me) who think it is a gemstone! I hope he reads these newer posts.

[NNC]

Well, to each his own. If you like Hell Station, you should try the author's other levels: Suburbia, Doomcity and Mothership. Mothership is bugged in the later EDuke versions and you cannot hit a ceiling aligned switch, but that leads only to a secret area, so that's not a big problem anyway. Suburbia is somewhat uneven, with some dull areas, but others look excellent. The title is misleading. Doomcity is one of the best vanilla (and really vanilla) city map you can find, it has no Enforcers, which is a good thing, but has a disco, a long subway, dark streets, and many other places to visit.

I'm not a mapper BTW, I enjoy trolling in Build, but have no time (and patience) to release my own stuff, which might be a bit lame since I'm part of the community since ages.

[Blue Lightning]

Ah...well you seem to know a lot about mapping nonetheless.

I may of tried those offerings I'm not sure. I'll DL them and try them thanks.

Speaking of Lunar maps, my favorite has to be Polaris Outpost...a very old Vanilla map. In fact I think it was done in 1996 if I'm not mistaken?

I wonder what the author of this Flood map will do next? Has anyone figured out how to get to the secret room on the top floor of the red-key card building without cheats? I cannot seem to get Fat commanders to maneuver under that top floor window (yet) to be able to jump up there.

[brullov]

Wow, so much feedback! As for the jetpack:

Spoiler

You can find it in the wall which is in front of you when you start. Jump on it and turn left, press "use" and secret door opens!

Today I am working on Duke Begins too much so I left all my single maps. I am really glad that you like my work.

P.S. Different people - different tastes. I wish I could make a map which can be loved by everybody. Now I am going to make a good TC. Lets see how it will be?

[Blue Lightning]

Good luck on that! Although I only play SP maps, so I will look forward to your next single player map offering! Yeah, I really like your work on this Flood map and I am quite picky about maps. Most don't stay on my hard drive. I guess players like myself that really like original type maps that are well made, will like this kind of map.

LOL

Spoiler

That Jetpack makes some of the caves and the secret room a little easier to get to LOL!

Can you imagine I was trying to get to them all by jumping on top of Fat Commanders? I think of myself as a skilled player, but not even I could pull that off!

[Blue Lightning]

PS I just checked, there is no

Spoiler

secret room or Jetpack that I could find

Edit: nevermind I found it. Damn that is well hidden

[brullov]

Special for you

Spoiler

[Blue Lightning]

Spoiler

Yep, I found it and posted about it right before your post