[icecoldduke]

PikaCommando, on 02 July 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

So uh, anybody got any ideas as to why DN3D's cast of enemies turned from robots to aliens? I think the 1995 build in the video already has somewhat the same plot as the final (but with LameDuke levels for some reason and little sign of the tentacle infestation), but we still don't know anything about LameDuke and the 1994 build. Was there a robot revolution or something? Who would be the bosses, then?

Since the human/robot(???) Trooper evolved into the alien Assault Trooper, does that mean the human/robot(???) Captain evolved into the Assault Enforcer? The only thing remotely alien with LameDuke is the cyborg Octabrain and the DN2 slime.

That is a good point, I'm curious when that happened as well. I wouldn't have liked the game as much if they stuck with robot enemies, so I'm glad they switched to aliens.

[Zummone]

High Treason, on 02 July 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

...

Now, now. Unless I'm overly extraneous to common banter in this place, there's no need to behave like this and go straight to the insults, Fox's post didn't really deserve that. I'm sure you're a respected member of this community and wouldn't like people to think less of you because someone stole your footage (it's not really anyone's but the guy who recorded it) and you start a dicksize war by making a less than sour joke about stealing YouTube views. I don't know Lunick, but it didn't seem like he minded and was just bantering back and I think you took the wrong impression out of him. It's okay and it can all still end well, but you have to bury the hatchet.

I'm telling you this because we have talked before, and even enjoyed your DukeHard map at least 20% more than the other users, nice stuff. I was also the one who originally found the (low-quality) Romero video by pure accident so I feel like I'm partially involved in this argument and need to step in.

I joined the forums around 2014 when this whole beta release was a big deal and my childhood dreams were finally realized, I wanted to thank all of the community for doing so and throw a bunch of insight (I even made an early e1l2 likeish map for the occasion), but I never did because I never felt like it was the best opportunity to introduce myself, little did I know all we'd eventually get were merely the appetizers. I nevertheless always kept lurking around here and had my fair share of fun and insight (I literally spent an entire night reading through the PolymerNG thread, I was in tears).

What I want to say is, I know research is a time consuming effort, but I think finding footage or unearthing beta content is supposed to be something for the community to gain, not a personal one. I can see if you had a partnership or something and the amount of views you'd get would be proportional to your income, although that would kind of make your passion a second thought; I also have beta content that I'm about to release, but I wouldn't ever partner for it (probably because I have heck of a lot copyrighted stuff, whoops), the least thing I would agree with is that people should know you found it first through your efforts. On YouTube this is not important, because hardly anyone cares about a minute and a half beta footage of "that doom ripoff with aliens and babes", and if it did they would be posting about it here instead, where people know it was you who found the video, see what I mean? Take it easy dude.

Even if I called the material ITT "appetizers", they are light years ahead of what those videos have accomplished, thanks to the periodic (and often unasked) peeps TerminX and Hendricks granted us. If you feel like doing some research, there's a good way I'm not sure I ever heard people talking about (Hendricks' post about the space suit wasn't that much interesting to me, because I've dug in this stuff years ago) to glance at some beta elements from the main 3 unfinished versions (0.99, 1.0 and 1.1). Now that you got some of the beta assets, you could make it even more believable with some patience. You basically just drop the 1.3D Duke3D GRP, change up the USER.CON files and you can blast through the full game levels like a bitch (I'm not sure why people didn't even try making custom maps with the 0.99 beta, I did one long ago where I was just learning the basics of Build, I'm attaching its last attempt to stay relevant). Now that would be days worth of research I'd like too see if you stump into something weird (CON files are bare, but that doesn't mean people have the will of reading them through or that it's all written there, for example another couple of years ago I found there was a sector effector which changed the MIDI track on LameDuke) or just want to document your findings in a cool series of videos.

About this map: find a way to enable God Mode if you're going to play it through the beta versions, the boss vehicle (SE 5, the one in E1L8 of LameDuke I recon, also converted that one for the betas and it was interesting seeing how the boss behaved) shoots like a thousand liztroop lasers per minute and they travel through sectors so you're instadead.

EDIT: Screwed up attaching, here's a link to the map from my web space. Also, my main language is not English so please be gentle, and forgive my abuse of brackets .

http://vgbasement.al.../duktest!!!.map

[PikaCommando]

Zummone, on 02 July 2016 - 10:52 AM, said:

Now, now. Unless I'm overly extraneous to common banter in this place, there's no need to behave like this and go straight to the insults, Fox's post didn't really deserve

About this map: find a way to enable God Mode if you're going to play it through the beta versions, the boss vehicle (SE 5, the one in E1L8 of LameDuke I recon, also converted that one for the betas and it was interesting seeing how the boss behaved) shoots like a thousand liztroop lasers per minute and they travel through sectors so you're instadead.

EDIT: Screwed up attaching, here's a link to the map from my web space. Also, my main language is not English so please be gentle, and forgive my abuse of brackets .

http://vgbasement.al.../duktest!!!.map

I'm not sure what this map is trying to do or how to even end it (if there's an end), but I'm assuming the pod inside the next base of the insta kill moon section is the LameDuke boss? All it does is follow me around and shoot harmless Liztroop shots to the air (it seems all projectiles gravitate to the ceiling for some reason). If this is indeed the effect planned for the boss, then how is Duke supposed to fight/kill it? iirc there was a video that showcased this effect, but it didn't shoot anything and only follows where Duke goes, like a UFO.

[Zummone]

PikaCommando, on 02 July 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

I'm not sure what this map is trying to do or how to even end it (if there's an end)

There isn't, it's been unfinished since forever it's meant to run tests on the various unused elements of Duke3D and test it on beta releases, I also made a LD version but it's buried in my hdd.
For example, you can check how the organic turret works, or check the mirror code (1.3D still needed giant empty sectors for them (or maybe I'm mistaking pre-1.3D), while 1.5's mirrors can do without, but entering them using DNCLIP shows HOM, not actually being inside the room like previous versions).

PikaCommando, on 02 July 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

but I'm assuming the pod inside the next base of the insta kill moon section is the LameDuke boss?

Yeah, back then I was testing sector effectors and didn't even realize SE 5 was the thing from LameDuke's L8.MAP

PikaCommando, on 02 July 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

All it does is follow me around and shoot harmless Liztroop shots to the air (it seems all projectiles gravitate to the ceiling for some reason).

Its code was changed in the final release to target the opposite coordinates of the player, while in beta those shots were aimed at your ass (even though they were quite easy to dodge in L8.MAP, but they're a pain in mine), AFAIK it does still harm in 1.0

PikaCommando, on 02 July 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

If this is indeed the effect planned for the boss, then how is Duke supposed to fight/kill it? iirc there was a video that showcased this effect, but it didn't shoot anything and only follows where Duke goes, like a UFO.

That sounds like LameDuke, where it was on its way to implementation I suppose, and damaging it would have been no harder than placing an invisible sprite under it. I converted L8.MAP to the final's game art coding if you're interested, let me find it.

[PikaCommando]

Zummone, on 02 July 2016 - 12:38 PM, said:

There isn't, it's been unfinished since forever it's meant to run tests on the various unused elements of Duke3D and test it on beta releases, I also made a LD version but it's buried in my hdd.
For example, you can check how the organic turret works, or check the mirror code (1.3D still needed giant empty sectors for them (or maybe I'm mistaking pre-1.3D), while 1.5's mirrors can do without, but entering them using DNCLIP shows HOM, not actually being inside the room like previous versions).



Yeah, back then I was testing sector effectors and didn't even realize SE 5 was the thing from LameDuke's L8.MAP



Its code was changed in the final release to target the opposite coordinates of the player, while in beta those shots were aimed at your ass (even though they were quite easy to dodge in L8.MAP, but they're a pain in mine), AFAIK it does still harm in 1.0



That sounds like LameDuke, where it was on its way to implementation I suppose, and damaging it would have been no harder than placing an invisible sprite under it. I converted L8.MAP to the final's game art coding if you're interested, let me find it.

I don't think the one in LameDuke shoots Liztroop shots either. The Organic Turrets in the teleport room to the final room does nothing either (also, my attacks gravitate to the ceiling).

In the final room with 3 hallways; the one on the right is the mirror room, but what is the one on the left and middle supposed to be?

Also, if they're gonna put an invisible sprite under it, why not just make it an actual sprite enemy? I wonder if there's any design notes laying around that explains just what the fuck was going on in their heads when they were making DN3D (or even DN1 and DN2).

[Zummone]

PikaCommando, on 02 July 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

I don't think the one in LameDuke shoots Liztroop shots either. The Organic Turrets in the teleport room to the final room does nothing either (also, my attacks gravitate to the ceiling).

In the final room with 3 hallways; the one on the right is the mirror room, but what is the one on the left and middle supposed to be?

It's like this:

LameDuke: only moves, doesn't shoot
0.99: shoots at you
1.0, 1.1: maybe they shoot away from you
1.3D: definitely shoots away from you

The organic turrets weren't ever finished I think, unless someone here can prove the opposite. About the other 2 rooms, the one on the left was supposed to have a set of teleporters (a la SE.MAP) and one of them brought you to L8.MAP, but having two SE 5 is definitely a bad idea. The one in the middle, I didn't figure out yet.

PikaCommando, on 02 July 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

Also, if they're gonna put an invisible sprite under it, why not just make it an actual sprite enemy? I wonder if there's any design notes laying around that explains just what the fuck was going on in their heads when they were making DN3D (or even DN1 and DN2).

Actual sprite enemies aren't 3D spaceships, which was the main appeal of the boss I think. I love LameDuke because you can tell they were having fun just experimenting new gameplay styles and stuff.

[Lunick]

Zummone, on 02 July 2016 - 10:52 AM, said:

About this map: find a way to enable God Mode if you're going to play it through the beta versions, the boss vehicle (SE 5, the one in E1L8 of LameDuke I recon, also converted that one for the betas and it was interesting seeing how the boss behaved) shoots like a thousand liztroop lasers per minute and they travel through sectors so you're instadead.

EDIT: Screwed up attaching, here's a link to the map from my web space. Also, my main language is not English so please be gentle, and forgive my abuse of brackets .

http://vgbasement.al.../duktest!!!.map

I've always been slightly interested in this boss-like sector effect after oasiz showed a video of it in action. Your English seems fine as well.

[deuxsonic]

Interesting how these demos make very heavy use of the look left and look right keys, at one point in front of a demo camera to have him appear to be surveying his surroundings. I guess they thought this was going to be an impressive new feature? In the final game there's really no reason to ever use these keys or the turn around key.

[TerminX]

As far as I can tell, that look left/right stuff existed purely for the sake of making the in-game demos look better. There were even animation frames for the player representing it.

[Lunick]

I think they look cool at least but I don't think they'd get much use outside of demo playback since you probably wouldn't be using it too much in multiplayer due to the fast pace of the game.

[deuxsonic]

I'm also curious why the game has a holster weapon feature. Were there going to be non-combat sections of the game where you'd holster your weapon? Also the Holoduke should have been left out of single player because it doesn't appear to do anything. Even a human player would be hard to trick with it since it is stationary, exactly what an actual player would not be. Steroids can be useful for speedruns and utilizing bugs in the game, but I only ever find myself using them to counteract being shrunken. Lastly, the Night Vision Goggles seem to be pretty useless as just that (just a change in color palette?) but will highlight monsters for you. I wish they had kept going with the idea of alternate modes of fire for weapons. Ultimately the Shrinker/Expander is the only last vestige of this. Using Blood as an example, having alt-fire modes for weapons makes weapons more fun to use I think anyway.

[CatNapDreams]

Maybe the holster weapon thing was going to be like in Duke Nukem: Time to Kill when you swam or climbed? Must have been some reason... or maybe that was how fists were going to be activated... then you could punch and use the mighty boot. First person hand to hand is kind of silly though.

CatNapDreams

[DNSkill]

Well... I think the looking left/right this is useful in single player at times, and also is just a cool thing to have and could probably find some sort of interesting use from modders.

The holster weapon feature is there because why not? It may not seem like much today, but back in the day the holster feature was really useful when you were doing platforming and there wasn't any enemies around so you could see all that was below you. Also it's just a cool feature, that is probably there to just be there.

[Lunick]

If platforming is your reason for the Holster, the player can just switch to Kick which doesn't have anything visable (although we can't confirm if that was in the build above). Maybe that's why the holster function is in Shadow Warrior then since all the weapons take up some of the screen.

[DNSkill]

I think the holster function is in the game because it was used during development for testing things or taking in game screenshots. It's also something you can do in real life with a gun, and is most likely something that lost its value over time, seeing as most shooters after the BUILD games did not have this feature.

[MrFlibble]

IIRC the holster function is somehow related to pistol reload. I think it automatically reloads the pistol when it's holstered, which may be useful under some circumstances.

Also I vaguely suspect that maybe the holster function was kept in line with other Build games like TekWar where it affects NPC behaviour?

As for the sideways look keys, I've always liked how the screen tilts when you do that. It's a cool effect, but admittedly not useful during actual gameplay at all. BTW, I just thought that maybe like with weapon holstering, both features were added simply for realism's sake, since the whole development was aimed at making a more realistic feel of the game world.

[High Treason]

Holstering might have once been there with the intention of climbing ladders or something, like in Shadow Warrior. Perhaps the strippers/some other NPC would have reacted differently towards the player or maybe some hi-tech security stuff would have not fired/locked down if you holstered the weapon?

Or maybe the devs just thought it looked cool?


Looking left and right is almost certainly there because it looks cool and not much else - but you can use it practically. In View Mode you can use it to look round corners quickly, something I never really have to do in Duke, but the feature carried to Blood where I used it constantly.

[deuxsonic]

Redneck Rampage does make use of the look keys when you get drunk, turning your head because I guess when you're really drunk your head gets stuck looking to the right. Which also strangely seems to half the screen resolution which I never understood.

[oasiz]

0.99 duke quick kick hides the weapon when kicking.. Wasn't there some "show opponent's weapon" flag in MP? I think that might be the actual reason.

[Fox]

deuxsonic, on 03 July 2016 - 07:06 AM, said:

Redneck Rampage does make use of the look keys when you get drunk, turning your head because I guess when you're really drunk your head gets stuck looking to the right. Which also strangely seems to half the screen resolution which I never understood.

When you look to the sides, your view is also rotated. The software renderer cannot rotate the screen, and instead the screen view is converted to a texture and rotated.

[DNSkill]

In the video that was shared, I really wonder what movies are playing at that theater.. lol

I've noticed that the city areas looks far more realistic in early versions of the game.

[oasiz]

Slashmaster II, That theatre seems to be the same as LD, just a facade with nothing playing.
There is a later shot of this which had the police car in front of the entrance, along with a pig cop.
That iteration seems a bit more worked on, although I wouldn't be surprised that the theme changed to porno stuff as they actually started working on it, considering the posters and all

I wouldn't really say that it's more realistic, just that it was chopped off and made self-contained in the later iterations.
Makes me wonder if those huge walls were just added there to visualize the new changes as they make little sense
You can clearly see that the video has both E1L1 and E1L2 there in their most bare forms.

E1L1 streets used to have a very similar layout to E1L2 in the earlier iterations (zigzag), probably why it got chopped even further to set it apart a bit more.
What they did do however is that they removed a lot of additional details (street signs, palm trees, sector trimmings, etc..) to gain extra performance. There are some E1L2 shots that show a bunch of the LD stuff intact but with retail-like texture set.

[jet_nick]

oasiz, on 02 July 2016 - 01:39 AM, said:

Heh.. thanks for mentioning first frames.. if you pay attention, you can actually see that female soldier that was scrapped on that subway map.
So they did indeed work on it more.

This image has been lazily color corrected.

in which video appears this woman?
and in what minute?

[Striker]

I really like the aesthetic of the level at 8:08 in that DN3D Beta video. The music, the atmosphere, the human enemies, the choices of color, etc... It really carries on that spirit of Duke Nukem 2 into 3D. Almost makes me wish the final game had a little more of that character.

[PikaCommando]

StrikerMan780, on 04 July 2016 - 01:07 AM, said:

I really like the aesthetic of the level at 8:08 in that DN3D Beta video. The music, the atmosphere, the human enemies, the choices of color, etc... It really carries on that spirit of Duke Nukem 2 into 3D. Almost makes me wish the final game had a little more of that character.

I don't think there were any human enemies left (or to begin with) at this point, since those Troopers are shown to be suited LizTroops in concept art.

Maybe the enemies LameDuke were robots because they gotta keep that kid-friendly rating.

[MrFlibble]

oasiz, on 03 July 2016 - 12:19 PM, said:

0.99 duke quick kick hides the weapon when kicking..

This also holds true for v1.0 and v1.1 as well.

StrikerMan780, on 04 July 2016 - 01:07 AM, said:

I really like the aesthetic of the level at 8:08 in that DN3D Beta video.

Agreed. It's quite remarkable how with so many of the constituent elements having essentially changed very little between the pre-release builds and the final game, the atmosphere and aesthetic became drastically different. It's almost like the final version of Duke Nukem 3D transitioned to a completely different era of game design altogether.

I feel kind of nostalgic about the old pre-release levels. Parts of the section StrikerMan780 refers to also reminded me of Blake Stone a bit for some reason. I also love many of Lame Duke's cityscape levels. I agree with gerolf that they're more "realistic" in the sense that they to recreate the layout of a city block, rather just maybe a couple of alleys and sidewalks. This reinforces the feel of non-linearity for the player too. There's a pre-release screenshot which I think captures this feel quite well:

[CatNapDreams]

I never played Duke Nukem 3D "back then"... but since I have been with MBC, I have played other games from that time period and understand the chronological order. I can not imagine playing DooM to death and loving it, then seeing footage like this! WOW! The leap is huge in environment and game-play. I know the first episode of Duke Nukem 3D pretty well, but I don't know Duke Nukem 3D much beyond that. I have only played it through (co-op) maybe three or four times, but there was a lot of interesting ideas in the maps in that video that I don't remember seeing.

Also, I am not sure if it is the external camera thingy, or what that makes the levels seem bigger or more open or something. Were they shrunk down for graphic efficiency (optimization?) maybe? I see why people are so interested in beta stuff.

CatNapDreams

[deuxsonic]

I liked it back when you could kick simultaneously with all 3 feet. They totally nerfed Duke...

[MusicallyInspired]

3?

[Altered Reality]

Are there any screenshots that let you take a good look at those silver enemies?