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Doom corner  "for all Doom related discussion"

User is offline   MrFlibble 

#3931

Saw this on Doomworld yesterday and I think it looks awesome:

He Came From Beyond
6

User is offline   Balls of Steel Forever 

  • Balls of Steel Forever

#3932

View PostMrFlibble, on 08 January 2021 - 12:05 PM, said:

Saw this on Doomworld yesterday and I think it looks awesome:

He Came From Beyond

Even if that game has walking sim type gameplay I'd probably be into it for the art alone.
2

User is offline   Lazy Dog 

#3933

Doom Eternal equipment launcher

https://i.redd.it/itfqui33hwy41.jpg

This post has been edited by Lazy Dog: 08 January 2021 - 07:51 PM

6

User is offline   jkas789 

#3934

So what, they are like his JOJO stands?
0

User is offline   Merlijn 

#3935

 MrFlibble, on 08 January 2021 - 12:05 PM, said:

Saw this on Doomworld yesterday and I think it looks awesome:

He Came From Beyond



That looks fantastic, and the fact that it's Lovecraft inspired is even better!
0

User is online   NightFright 

  • The Truth is in here

#3936

That must be one of the best "You'll never guess this is still Doom" mods/conversions I have ever seen. Very original and unusual visuals. If it's ever going to be finished, I want to try it.
0

User is offline   Cherno 

#3937

I (re-)added some sprite renders in the last couple of weeks. All my sprites can be found here: Cherno's Sprites.

Ogre from Quake (Updated 12/30/2020)

2x orthographic.

https://abload.de/img/ogre_idle7tku6.gifhttps://abload.de/img/ogre_runpsje5.gifhttps://abload.de/img/ogre_smash14j4a.gifhttps://abload.de/img/ogre_shootnjjdo.gif

Gunner from Quake II

2x orthographic.

https://abload.de/img/gunner_idleufkoz.gifhttps://abload.de/img/gunner_walkihjyv.gifhttps://abload.de/img/gunner_fire_machinegu5gkbt.gifhttps://abload.de/img/gunner_fire_grenade_lsbknp.gif

Locust Drone from Gears of War 1

2x orthographic.

https://abload.de/img/idleu3jau.gifhttps://abload.de/img/walk_missilewikf1.gifhttps://abload.de/img/meleeatktb.gif
8

User is offline   MrFlibble 

#3938

Excellent work on converting those Q1&2 models to sprites, I never though it'd work out that well.
0

User is offline   jkas789 

#3939

So apparently back in november of 2020 the Doom 64 source code was reverse engineered. Cool stuff!
0

User is offline   ck3D 

#3940

View Postjkas789, on 18 January 2021 - 04:04 AM, said:

So apparently back in november of 2020 the Doom 64 source code was reverse engineered. Cool stuff!


I kinda like how a lot of people have just recently been finding out about Doom 64, I absolutely loved that game for its atmosphere as a kid and yes I had played both classic Doom games before that, so I was aware of the shift in tone but I totally embraced it. I'm seeing a lot of people claim the game went unappreciated at the time because most people assumed it was one more port of Doom on the Nintendo 64 which I can see to an extent, but I also very well remember that at the time reviewers were really questioning, when not downright put off by the very differences with the PC game, to the point where it used to be sort of a question whether or not it was 'canon' and eventually I think that sort of entrapped it into cultural limbo, and not so much ignorance regarding the product. That was pre-reboot of the franchise with Doom 3 (which I've never played), etc. The color palette in general was especially amazing and the level design was gloomy as fuck, I do remember having remarkable trouble with the darkness at the time though, IIRC default settings on console really lacked visibility which made exploring the maps all the more frustrating in that you wanted to do it, however most often your only reward would be to get lost amongst a bunch of undistinguishable corridors in the dark. I remember really wanting and trying to finish the game a few times exploring everything, but would always give up a few maps in due to how repetitive the experience would start to feel, tasting like going nowhere fast.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 22 January 2021 - 05:49 PM

0

#3941

Haven't posted in a while on this topic, so I might as well talk what I have been playing (mostly random stuff). Before that, to reply to Ninety-Six about KDIZD:

View PostNinety-Six, on 31 December 2020 - 06:57 PM, said:

KDiZD is one of my personal favorite games. Not as high as some other FPS, but it scores top 20 at least.

I don't care what popular opinion says I had an extremely good time with it. I think the only bad part about it is just using the stock music. I recommend the PSX soundtrack to go with its more ambient tone (which I do when I play it. With one exception: Z1M8 gets the sonic clang version of E1M8).

They like to talk about "hubris" but I never got any sense of trying to out-do the originals. Instead I got the feeling of playing those originals for the first time, which is what the mission statement actually was. E1 remakes are a dime-a-dozen, and with the unchanging monster roster there are no real surprises anymore (bullshit death traps notwithstanding). But KDZiD recreates the trepidation of not knowing what could be behind the next corner thanks to the brand new monsters, it gives you a similar rush of excitement when you find new weapons to play with for the first time. And while the levels could be a bit labyrinthine, I never got too lost (besides, a common (and deserved) criticism of the original game are its own labyrinthine levels).

I agree with you that KDIZD is one of the best ZDoom experiences and the levels recreating the original Doom shareware feeling in an unique way, I have always been impressed by the projects made by Tormentor667 due to the additions (custom enemies, weapons, etc) and attention to detail in the levels, also the Realm667 repository holds a special place in my heart because of all those custom monsters, weapons and items, I remember making my first randomizer mod for ZDoom back in 2009-2010 (at that time I was mostly using Skulltag and playing on multiplayer servers, still using ZDoom/GZDoom for playing some mods) and found some monsters excellent additions to the original Doom bestiary.

Now there are some minor issues about KDIZD which have been pointed out by others but I never found them to detract from the experience (such as the super detailing in levels, the true final boss being just thrown there and other stuff) and I found a lot of people's complaints to be really silly and unjustified attacks according to all the drama that surrounded KDIZD back in 2000s. I can only wish good luck to Tormentor667 to his future projects and I really hope the planned sequel The Shores of ZDoom comes out one day. I don't remember what happened to the project anyway, was it cancelled or put on hold? If anyone knows more information, please let me know!

Now for the wads, I have been playing a lot of varied stuff as of lately, some cool stuff but also some outright trash stuff. In all cases I played on UV skill and most of the stuff was easy, only few things were difficult and I will point out.

Let's start with the good stuff. I finished two Boom-compatible maps (cacoward winners) by Trevor Primmett (iori), the maps are called Songs of the Damned and Drip Feed, they are from 2006 and 2010 respectively. Played in PrBoom+ 2.5.1.4 with parameter -complevel 9. The second map replaces MAP30, so make sure you warp there when you start a new game (I started directly with -warp 30 -skill 4 parameters) and also note the fact that due to MAP30 slot, monsters can telefrag the player and even each other. This resulted in a funny situation where some monsters telefragged each other upon grabbing the berserk pack and running (that was the only teleport trap in the level, so don't worry about these kind of traps).

The maps are quite lengthy, pretty challenging and very well designed. I had a lot of fun playing these two maps, they felt like an adventure and nothing felt out of place. Gameplay wise, it was pretty much Doom 2 at its core, nothing felt confusing. I did them both without dying, thankfully. Had some close calls on second map but I survived until end. Though the maps took me nearly 2 hours each, so I recommend taking breaks if you get bored of playing the map.

Songs comes with a dehacked patch and a gameplay demo that you can watch in ports like PrBoom+ and Eternity. It is useful for revealing an early Megasphere secret and a solution to the yellow key puzzle where you must choose the correct switch (spoiler: it is the second one).
In Drip Feed, after finishing the map, I went back for the missing secret and enemy and I couldn't figure out how to get the BFG secret by myself, so I searched for the internet and couldn't find a full playthrough or anything mentioned on doomwiki.org, until I finally found an UV-Max demo on DSDA, so I watched it and even then I didn't understand how to find that switch to unlock the BFG secret. I at first believed I needed that archvile to reach it but thankfully that wasn't the case (and at that time I was also struggling a bit with health and the green armor was just running out). Thankfully I eventually figured it out, however it was a bit pointless getting the BFG so late as I didn't even need it and even the Plasma I found relatively late. I mostly stuck with the shotgun/SSG (the latter was given halfway in map, I think), chaingun and RL and sometimes the plasma rifle.
The other two secrets are not difficult to find, the first one is easy to find and is a backpack secret (which is much needed), the second one is tricky and requires shooting a switch that briefly gets revealed while going on those stairs leading to red key. The BFG secret requires lowering the beginning lift and pressing that switch quickly, then the BFG platform will lower and you can grab it.

As for other cool stuff, recently I finished Waterlab GZD by Enjay (2017 Cacoward runner-up), was a fantastic GZDoom 2.4.0 mod.
The monster count may scare you away with the 700-800 or so enemies present but most of them are weak, variations of zombies, of which there are many. There are now female zombies variations, zombie scientists and many more! There are also other familiar custom monsters from Realm667, though I won't spoil them. I will however say that the boss fight against Overlord (from Realm667, not the one from Duke Nukem 3D) is really cool!

I found 11/17 secrets by myself and had to watch an YouTube video to get the rest, the last one is found in the last rooms where there's lots of enemies to fight, since I found the BFG earlier in a secret place, I had no problem tearing through them and grab the invulnerability secret. Then there is another invulnerability that appears while the final monsters teleport, so make sure to grab it and fight the Overlord with it!

The ending text is funny and a reference to original Doom shareware ending (see picture). The icing on the delicious cake is that there is even a custom cast screen showing ALL the encountered enemies in the mod. Shame that this didn't win a Cacoward, instead that Lilith shit got one (don't worry, I will get to rant about it). Personally I think Enjay is a very talented ZDoom modder and most of his wads were always great (though I didn't enjoy much his old wad Operation Overlord as it was insanely difficult, I finished it a few months ago 100% and without cheats, had to save/load a lot). He even made some very old Doom wads that I haven't had the chance to play yet.

I've also been playing a few Heretic and Hexen wads. I finished a long Heretic map in ZDoom 2.1.7 (that was latest ZDoom version available when map came out, so I thought to use that instead of latest ZDoom) called Town of Witchcraft. It was made by Kaiser and he has created quite a couple of interesting wads for all Doom engine games, of varying quality. This map was long and pretty good, although progression wasn't clear at times and since ZDoom was recommended (despite the map not using any of its features), I decided to jump and crouch at times and advance the map as I really couldn't figure out what to do next when wandering around for 30 minutes straight while I was getting shot (though rarely hit) by monsters across the map. I know in original Heretic there is no jump at all (and crouching never existed in any Doom engine game) but since I'm using ZDoom, I see no issue with it. An updated version of the map seems to be included in Heretic Treasure Chest megawad which is also limit-removing and mostly for ZDoom ports, so I will try to figure out the progression next time I play through the map, unless I will break it again with jumping, assuming the wad doesn't disable jumping.

Hordes of Chaos series (also for Heretic), currently on HOC2, map 2. It is alright, I guess. I started playing each wad individually (using older ZDoom 2.0.98) and I know Hordes of Chaos X includes the first 4 episodes as well, so I will get to replay them, I was thinking to also play their initial version too. However note that Hordes of Chaos II, III and IV don't include previous entries, only Hordes of Chaos X includes all previous content + episode 5.

Difficulty wise, can't say it's as difficult as advertised, for someone like me, I'm finding these maps fairly easy actually. There are lots of teleporting monsters (spawned by scripts) at times which inflate the monster count but you shouldn't have trouble dealing with them. There are few timed maps as well (second and fourth level in first episode had time limit, the map I reached currently also has a time limit).
Please note that weapons and ammo reset between maps, only health, armor and inventory (1 each item) carries between levels. There are no secrets to find, so only make sure to kill everyone and get all items (inventory items count as one), I was successful to get everything, though I had to replay second half of E1M4 from an earlier save due to missing an enemy at end of level and backtracking wasn't possible. There are monsters taken from Doom 2 and Hexen as well, though the Doom 2 monsters are a bit out of place and their palette also suffers a bit. Thankfully stronger monsters like Barons of Hell and Archviles can be turned into a chicken and get rid of them immediately. Assuming you still have the morph ovum in inventory, so I recommend saving it for those situations. The Hexen monsters fit nicely alongside Heretic ones, however the biggest difference between them is Hexen monsters don't drop anything upon dying, while the Heretic ones randomly drop ammo or artifacts upon dying. So obviously it feels less satisfying to kill Hexen monsters with Heretic weapons and the weapons also aren't as strong as the ones in Hexen, so the combat feels a bit odd at times, not very satisfying. Thankfully there is a fair amount of tomes in some of the levels, so sometimes you can make use of one to clear a room quickly. A bug sometimes happened in this specific ZDoom version where the weapon was still tomed after it expired, so I could still fire a powered crossbow. I rarely took advantage of the bug and it doesn't work on most weapons. Gauntlets remain red after a tome expires (instead of reverting to green) but sadly it doesn't drain health, so this is pointless. The bug is gone upon switching to another weapon. I guess I know why this happens, these weapons are supposed to do the lowering-raising animation (as they do in vanilla Heretic) upon tome expiring and they don't do that here.

I've also done Wolfen wad for Hexen (also in ZDoom 2.0.98) and I think it was ok, although massively overrated when comes to people mentioning it in "Best Hexen wads" topics. I remember not liking it back in 2011 or so and then finally playing it and finishing a few times in 2019 after playing an unofficial fixed version from moddb or something (in latest ZDoom). I replayed recently (the original 2004 idgames release) in an older version of ZDoom mentioned earlier and even then one puzzle item didn't work right, so I had to jump on a tree to get past those spikes that are supposed to lower upon inserting the flame mask. The wad was made for these ZDoom 2.0.x versions and even then it doesn't work correctly. Why didn't anyone report that bug? Because of the level design being too confusing at times? Why does everyone think the level design in Hexen is too confusing?

Difficulty wise, is only sometimes a bit difficult for Fighter, while Cleric and Mage will have an easier time. I liked the Aeon mana abilities (maximum Aeon mana is 70 I believe, as I tried finding all pickups of it) and the Aeon weapon (which is a different reskinned Heretic weapon for each class) and some puzzles were interesting. The final boss is interesting as well with you becoming a werewolf (in reality, your weapons are removed and replaced by a reskinned Doom Fist that look like unused Beast Claws from Blood) fighting against those ettins that shapeshift into Blood cerberus boss, though a bit too easy/lackluster. I also like the secret boss map which involves fighting the author of the wad, acting like a reskinned D'Sparil from Heretic.

What I hate at this wad are infinitely respawning monsters (unlike in Hexen that respawned mostly Ettins at a few minutes, the enemies here, mostly ettins, respawn infinitely as long as there's at least 3 or so present in the map), some cheap insta-kill traps, some annoying enemies like those reskinned arachnotrons, really ugly sprites for most custom content (custom monsters are nothing more than reskinned ones from Doom 2 and Heretic) and there's a few other issues with it as well, mostly the fact the author never updated the wad for newer ZDoom versions, so it's broken if you play in latest ZDoom with puzzle items not working. Even then on ZDoom 2.0.98 the flame mask puzzle cannot be placed but the books puzzle (that unlocks secret level) works fine.

Now back to Doom stuff, I also did Action Doom (again, ZDoom 2.0.98) and I think most of it was great (although outdated by modern standards of course), I enjoyed the level design (inspired by Duke3D at times) and most of the stuff it offered and the secrets (some of which are tricky to find, make sure to find the Mario secret in first level), I also liked that there's different paths leading to different outcomes. What I didn't like is that due to having only 1 HP, you can be easily killed by pretty much anything, though thankfully zombies now shoot projectiles. The final bosses (and even different mini bosses in each path you take in second map) are also interesting, that last normal boss fight is pretty hard and annoying due to infinitely respawning imps (imps have been modified to only kill you upon touching you), it can be done with lots of saving/loading and after defeating the boss, most times I jump to reach helicopter and escape, it seems like the player doesn't jump at all, falls and dies instead...

I also didn't enjoy some parts/paths you take, such as the boat ride, it was buggy/glitchy as hell despite using an older version of ZDoom for around the wad was made, which is same deal as with the Heretic/Hexen wads mentioned above. Maybe I was supposed to run with ZDoom 2.0.63a? I never liked that version TBH, it was fairly buggy to me (like other 2.0.x versions that I tried years ago to play some older wads), I found 2.0.98 more stable imo. Because there was for example an early ZDoom wad I played months ago called RTC-3057 Hub 1 (demo version, didn't play the full release in many years) and it didn't work at all in ZDoom 2.1.7 (refused to start), while on latest ZDoom 2.8.1 you can't pick up/select pistol and are forced to fight with your fists at beginning until you get weapons, so I used 2.0.98 and it worked fine, no pistol bug.

And as mentioned, sometimes difficulty is a bit unfair. You should save often and have multiple save slots just in case but also for replayability. The true final boss appears when you play on Contra (hard) skill, so make sure to play on this difficulty to get the full/intended experience. My final score on my last playthrough (after choosing the right paths that give most points and all secret areas) after defeating the final boss, was 353002, which was also higher than Scuba Steve himself from the credits screen.

Now for the rest mixed bag/trash wads that I enjoyed a bit or didn't really enjoy at all. To not make the post seem very long, I will put them in spoilers.

I finished Equinox last week in ZDoom 1.22 (ZDoom was recommended in text file and that old 1.22 version was latest at that time in 2001 which still retains most of vanilla feeling including the infamous BLOCKMAP bug, also I read that this wad caused to crash most of the ports at that time it came out and since it was made by the infamout author of nuts, I thought ZDoom works the best when playing his wads) it was pretty good (although ammo a bit scarce, had to rely a LOT on chainsawing and monster infighting in general) up to MAP11. No deaths until that point, everything went smooth and I enjoyed my time. After that, surprise surprise, it went downhill.

As soon as MAP12 started, I knew shit was going to get serious. I started dying a lot (kinda strange to go from no deaths to a LOT of deaths, isn't it?) and started getting frustrated. The thing is I initially died like 6 or so times until the last room and I was already starting to run out of ammo at times (despite conserving as MUCH ammo as I could). Because for some retarded reason, there is an invisible IOS spawner in last room which got activated much earlier before I even reached that part and even worse since it's not MAP30, monsters don't telefrag each other, some were stuck inside each other and it was fucking annoying when barons and mancubus and arachnotron stuck inside each other while I was out of ammo and getting killed in process. Even worse that last part is a maze you have to navigate and it contains only a cell pack inside one of the corners, nothing else, so if you are out of health and cells, you are out of luck.

Sure you can skip straight to the exit teleporter if you are fast enough but I wanted to go to the back of maze and grab that megasphere and cell packs before entering the maze while BFG-ing whatever was in my face. EVEN THEN, I started to run out of ammo and health and had to save scum to pass and died 22 times in this map and yeah, I think you get the point how frustrating it was. I can't imagine doing this in a classic port because of infinitely tall monsters, as ZDoom had them disabled even back on this old version, so you don't have to worry about this bullshit.
There were demons on a pit at beginning (which I chainsawed when I dropped down at one point) and those cacodemons in maze, can't imagine doing that in PrBoom+. Ugh the more I think of that map, the angrier I get and I think 96 would agree with me here. Not sure if anyone played Equinox but I'm just warning if anyone wants to attempt playing this wad. Because the last two maps are really bad!
I eventually made it with low health and only a few bullets left. At least there's some ammo at beginning of MAP13 and even a slightly pointless invulnerability secret, as it will almost run out by the time you come back and fight those monsters at start.

If anyone is wondering, no the maps don't have any new names, they are just reusing original Doom 2 level names.
So what's with MAP13? It wasn't as bad as I thought it was, in fact it was easier than MAP12, I only died here 8 times (half of deaths were my fault, the others were bullshit as usual, like a revenant fireball killing me as soon as I opened the door) and yeah sadly you can't get all kills (those Cyberdemons in main huge room for example aren't meant to be killed), plus there's those demons, spectres and some archiviles (at least try BFG-ing the few Archviles) on a bullshit lava area where you must run as fast as you can while invulnerable and there's some imps and barons on some high ledges you can't kill, rest you can kill. I only got 61% kills here (and in previous map over 900% kills) but otherwise I have 100%'ed every map in the wad. The last room is also impossible to clean since you will be almost out of cells, so don't kill anyone that spawns, just run to press the switch which will kill the hidden Romero heads, hidden voodoo dolls and also you (even if you have a lot of health, you will still die with positive health left) and end level at same time.

Since I needed to finish the map 100% before deleting the wad, I turned on Infinite Ammo option in menu after emptying all my ammo on all weapons and just realized none of my weapons worked because in older ZDoom versions you needed to have ammo in order to fire the gun, in this case you also need at least 2 shells for SSG and at least 40 cells for the BFG, so I reloaded a slightly earlier save where I had like 60 cells and went crazy with spamming the BFG for all remaining monsters in the level, including those demons while jumping in lava (in older ZDoom versions up to 1.22, jump height was much lower and it was harder to avoid the lava damage), even then it took a lot to kill those cybers as I needed to strafe a lot in that arena and never get hit by their rockets.

Overall, I think Equinox is a mixed bag, the first 10-11 maps are good (though not as good as some people make it out to be) if not average at times, however it goes downhill on MAP12 and after that it's not that fun. I will say the final map's difficulty varies and can't be harder than the last part of MAP12, though there's some tricky parts. As with rest BRPD (BPRD?)'s wads, they are massively overrated and very few people criticize the wads he has created so far. Sure they have an interesting atmosphere and are uniquely designed at times. But I was never a fan of author's works, I guess.

The other positive things I can say about the wad are the music and the custom graphics, especially that unique status bar design with the face replaced by a graphic depicting a human, which also starts showing critical condition when your health is below 40%. The new weapon sprites (pistol and chaingun) are a bit out of place, made of pre-existing 3D renders (or CGI graphics) I guess. Rest weapons are unchanged.

Spoiler


Anyway sorry if the message turned out to be very long as I had to share my experiences with these wads. I have put a spoiler in order for the message to not be too long, so most of ranting is in spoiler.

I will continue my Dooming in February as next week I will mostly prepare for the upcoming Duke3D's 25th anniversary, maybe with an occasional Doom level a day and then I will finally finish stuff like Akeldama, KDIZD, SIGIL and others that I have been dragging for so long and I should have finished long ago. Screenshots time I guess (had more screens but after realizing there's so many, I will upload only the most interesting ones in order to not spam the topic). Kinda wish I didn't delete the Lilith pics because I wanted to show how bad the mod is. Also the Equinox pictures are cropped because old versions of ZDoom don't run well in fullscreen mode, so I have to play in windowed mode.

Oh almost forgot to mention, recently I received my Limited Run Games big box copy of Chex Quest, which I heard it contains just the first game, according to an YouTube unboxing video I have watched a while ago after hearing LRG has started shipping Chex Quest. Either way I think it will sit nicely along the other big boxes I have (Duke3D expansions boxes, SIGIL big box) and even that unopened Chex Quest disc I got recently from eBay in past couple of months. I'm not a hardcore collector but I still enjoy collecting whatever I can afford.

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This post has been edited by RunningDuke: 23 January 2021 - 10:03 AM

1

User is offline   Ninety-Six 

#3942

View PostRunningDuke, on 23 January 2021 - 10:01 AM, said:

I agree with you that KDIZD is one of the best ZDoom experiences and the levels recreating the original Doom shareware feeling in an unique way, I have always been impressed by the projects made by Tormentor667 due to the additions (custom enemies, weapons, etc) and attention to detail in the levels, also the Realm667 repository holds a special place in my heart because of all those custom monsters, weapons and items, I remember making my first randomizer mod for ZDoom back in 2009-2010 (at that time I was mostly using Skulltag and playing on multiplayer servers, still using ZDoom/GZDoom for playing some mods) and found some monsters excellent additions to the original Doom bestiary.


I also have a soft spot for the Realm667 bestiary. As a matter of fact it tends to scratch the itch that I was talking about for Duke and LRWB. Most of the Realm monsters are variants of the vanilla roster which I find to add extra depth to the combat and unpredictability without relying on bullshit traps that require foreknowledge to beat. Really I wish the realm monsters were just used more often to shake up the gameplay instead of relying on that crap. If you're struggling to think up of ways to surprise the player without killing them instantly, there's a whole library you can use.

I also don't know the status of Shores and kinda don't have hope we'll ever see it (and if we do I expect it would instead be Shores of GZdoom instead). Though there was a remake of Refinery made in the KDiZD style by him. And yeah I think KDiZD got unfairly criticized just because Tormentor is a controversial figure in the community. Which is an attitude I really don't like. I believe a work can exist independent of its creator. For instance, I can't stand TerminusEst13 as a person; I think he's just a straight conceited asshole (so nothing new there). But he has also made good stuff that I like. Most notably spearheading the DUMP project, and the gameplay mod that came with the third installment. He even contributed my favorite weapon to the latter, which was a hilariously oversized mallet that made a squeaky noise when it hit an enemy. I loved that weapon and wished so bad I could have it separate from the gameplay mod.


View PostRunningDuke, on 23 January 2021 - 10:01 AM, said:

Now back to Doom stuff, I also did Action Doom (again, ZDoom 2.0.98) and I think most of it was great (although outdated by modern standards of course), I enjoyed the level design (inspired by Duke3D at times) and most of the stuff it offered and the secrets (some of which are tricky to find, make sure to find the Mario secret in first level), I also liked that there's different paths leading to different outcomes. What I didn't like is that due to having only 1 HP, you can be easily killed by pretty much anything, though thankfully zombies now shoot projectiles. The final bosses (and even different mini bosses in each path you take in second map) are also interesting, that last normal boss fight is pretty hard and annoying due to infinitely respawning imps (imps have been modified to only kill you upon touching you), it can be done with lots of saving/loading and after defeating the boss, most times I jump to reach helicopter and escape, it seems like the player doesn't jump at all, falls and dies instead...

I also didn't enjoy some parts/paths you take, such as the boat ride, it was buggy/glitchy as hell despite using an older version of ZDoom for around the wad was made, which is same deal as with the Heretic/Hexen wads mentioned above. Maybe I was supposed to run with ZDoom 2.0.63a? I never liked that version TBH, it was fairly buggy to me (like other 2.0.x versions that I tried years ago to play some older wads), I found 2.0.98 more stable imo. Because there was for example an early ZDoom wad I played months ago called RTC-3057 Hub 1 (demo version, didn't play the full release in many years) and it didn't work at all in ZDoom 2.1.7 (refused to start), while on latest ZDoom 2.8.1 you can't pick up/select pistol and are forced to fight with your fists at beginning until you get weapons, so I used 2.0.98 and it worked fine, no pistol bug.

And as mentioned, sometimes difficulty is a bit unfair. You should save often and have multiple save slots just in case but also for replayability. The true final boss appears when you play on Contra (hard) skill, so make sure to play on this difficulty to get the full/intended experience. My final score on my last playthrough (after choosing the right paths that give most points and all secret areas) after defeating the final boss, was 353002, which was also higher than Scuba Steve himself from the credits screen.


Nah I don't think saving that often is necessary. There are plentiful checkpoints. I also found the difficulty quite fair (well, as long there isn't a tank around); I think it's more a matter of approaching the game with a completely different mindset. Unlike the base game where you can go in guns blazing, AD was heavily inspired by games like Contra, hence the single hit point. Unlike those games though, enemies aren't infinitely respawning, which encourages and is built around you playing with just a bit more caution. Gotta take it a little slower and be much more mindful of enemy attacks, unlike in Doom where you can safely tank some attacks.


Playing AD was also when I kind of realized jut how sorry the modern state of doom modding is. Even past the bullshit death traps, I realized most mappers these days are so solely focused on making pretty sector art. They only want spectacle but after so much "spectacle" it all starts to run together because that's the only thing they give out.

Meanwhile, in mods like AD, there are more genuine attempts to elicit other emotions than just "wow". You get the pumping action of the first level, there's a creepy atmosphere in the base, Hell has never looked more like Hell in Doom, and so on. I played this around the same time I played Sigil which was also a masterwork of eliciting and controlling how a player feels, and combined I really learned why even past the frustrating combat of modern dooming there is just nothing past the surface.


i really gotta stop making long rants about doom modding but i just have so much to say
2

User is offline   jkas789 

#3943

View Postck3D, on 22 January 2021 - 05:41 PM, said:

I remember really wanting and trying to finish the game a few times exploring everything, but would always give up a few maps in due to how repetitive the experience would start to feel, tasting like going nowhere fast.


I liked everything but the control scheme. N64 controller was horrible for first person games.
0

User is offline   ReaperAA 

#3944

View PostNinety-Six, on 23 January 2021 - 04:55 PM, said:

Playing AD was also when I kind of realized jut how sorry the modern state of doom modding is. Even past the bullshit death traps, I realized most mappers these days are so solely focused on making pretty sector art. They only want spectacle but after so much "spectacle" it all starts to run together because that's the only thing they give out.


I disagree with your assessment that modern wads are worse than the older wads. You are probably just looking at the wrong place. Most of the standard non-ZDoom stuff focus more on the combat and less on atmosphere (and things have kinda been like this since the beginning). If you want more atmospheric stuff, you are better off looking at ZDoom maps/TC's.
0

User is offline   Ninety-Six 

#3945

More on sector art*, more like. But regardless, I'm already aware of that particular divide. Problem is there isn't all that much of that, either. Like 65% of all Z-family mods are some type of randomizer for some bizarre reason. Actual maps for those ports aren't common and when they show up it's usually for a few extra features that last a single map, maybe three, but not much more.

The TCs do have a much stronger track record I'll admit. Still it's not like such things can't be done even within vanilla limitations of classic doom. The original game did that quite well, for instance. The sequel, not so much, but I'd argue TNT actually did a decent job, particularly in the second episode. Say what you will of the actual level design itself, but there was some successful attempts at creating an atmosphere, particularly in the night time levels. TNT:R also did a decent job of it, MAP12 being a standout.



But even more to the point, it's not just the lack of atmosphere I lament; it's the lack of any attempt to get the player to feel anything other than "wow look at the pretty walls" and "wow look at how many rockets can fit in my ass". Maybe that can also be argued to be atmosphere, but I see it as a more background, ambient thing. What I'm talking about is a bit more upfront, though make no mistake that atmosphere is absolutely a part of it.


To use Sigil as an example (I don't mean to keep praising it as I do have some issues with it here and there, but it is the perfect demonstration of what I'm getting at), the first map throws you into the thick of it. You start off swarmed by enemies, the walls are all red, and the music is thundering in your ears, in both versions of the soundtrack. The level itself is also very fast paced, with a short length and enemies packed together in tight groups for easy disposal with the shotgun. It presents this aura of rage, after all you are literally seeing red, and the bodies drop quickly.

The second map is similarly claustrophobic, but now it's turned against you. You're on some bright island in the middle of a black abyss. The music is still rocking but there's a more trepid sound to it, as you face against much tougher monsters on these narrow catwalks.


In both examples, there's a very similar ambience to both, but the level designs are done in such a way as to elicit slightly different feelings on the same backdrop. From empowerment to escape, but still encouraging you to blast forward. It's a much more active presence in how the very level itself is designed around bringing out these similar yet different feelings. The ambience just adds on top of it, or more accurately brings in a backdrop that suits that goal.

The third map breaks away and is probably one of the most atmospheric in the set, relying on it more. It's darker, it's quieter, the monsters are less frequent and are spread out more, the level design is still narrow but not as much, and it's the first and last time you see the sky for a while. It even holds onto the reveal of the sky for a while, so that you pay special attention to it when it shows up. It's all to give you the sense of being in a dark place where you're not supposed to be, like you're in the "back alleys" of Hell, about as far from home and safety as you could ever be.



I could go on (and would happily do so if asked), but you get the idea. Of course expecting such a thing from modders, especially in a pack designed by multiple different mappers, is a tall order. I recognize that. However. There is a great irony to all this.

See, AD is not something I would define as professional in quality. It's a fun time but it's definitely a mod. Likewise, the atmosphere it creates is indeed much simpler in style. But the thing is, it still had those moments. Tension and release. It wasn't as fine a point as it was with Romero, but it wasn't supposed to be. It was instead the naievete of the modder going with what seemed to make sense. "Science labs after a disaster should be creepy, so when they get to the lab I'll play some creepy music and not have them fight that much." "Hell is supposed to be full of blood and fire and brimstone so here's a river of corpses that dump into lava."

It's very simplistic logic, again it demonstrates naievete since they're just more like setpieces than fully going the mile with it. They're based more on what makes sense of the location they wanted to make rather than going as in-depth as Romero did to basically completely orchestrate every tiny aspect of the entire stage. But at the end of the day, the result is a different feeling based on how far into the game you are.


These days the doom community is so "professional," clean and sterilized that they outgrew that naievete. The problem is they never replaced it with better knowledge. They got so bloody obsessed with "look how pretty my map is" that everything else became secondary. The gameplay, the atmosphere, and as was the point of this particular rant, the ability or care to make a player actually have some sort of journey.


Not every map has to of course, but what we have is certainly no alternative. Where every map is just visual spectacle after visual spectacle and it just all runs together after a while. There's nothing new other than yet another fancy moving floor or just a prettyful texture pack. The combat certainly got stale after the 1500th archvile came out from behind a wall of cyberdemons that you couldn't touch.
4

#3946

I actually ask you to go on with the Sigil level analysis. I also love how every map has a different feel to them, how the different visual narratives alter your mood and playstyle, and how that's a textbook example of professional mapping.
1

User is offline   Ninety-Six 

#3947

View PostThe Watchtower, on 26 January 2021 - 06:42 AM, said:

I actually ask you to go on with the Sigil level analysis. I also love how every map has a different feel to them, how the different visual narratives alter your mood and playstyle, and how that's a textbook example of professional mapping.



Well carrying on from where I left off, Paths of Wretchedness is simultaneously a continuation and a break from established patterns. While the first three levels were on a downwards trend in terms of moment-to-moment intensity as well as mood and theme, this level acts as a tonal pacebreaker. It takes the player back to a tone somewhere between the second and third levels, with brighter visuals, faster music, but clamps down on how much of the sky you get to see. It's possible that this level originally came earlier before being deemed too difficult to be level 3, but I tend to think it's intentional. A breather between the gloomy E5M3 and the much more intense and dark middle sections.

In terms of how it actually plays, it continues the trend of using tight walkspaces against you. In fact the entire level is built around this concept, and I'd argue is when the concept is at its hardest, especially seeing as your weapon options, whether you are playing continuous or from a pistol start, are still quite limited. Sigil as a whole has a theme of tight spaces (carrying on from most episode 1 maps, really), but E5M4 here is when it's at the peak.


Abbadon's Void is (or at least was) probably one of if not the most difficult maps of the set, for me anyway. This map takes the concept of tight spaces and expands on it. You aren't so restricted movement-wise in terms of physical barriers, but you are definitely encouraged to essentially define the barriers, since you have two cyberdemon turrets on area denial duty for about 2/3 of the level. Fittingly, since having two growling cyberdemons no more than a backyard's distance away at any one time, the tone is basically horror. Both music tracks are on the tense unsettling side, and the "sky" here is just a black void with lava lightning in the distance. Romero wanted you scared here, and I think he succeeds.


Unspeakable Persecution lessens up on the tight spaces (though make no mistake; they are still present in spades. They're just not a focus anymore), but plays with heavy use of darkness, picking up that trend from the previous level instead. You have a gloomy skylit area (which in my opinion is the most beautifully desolate view in the entire wad; in fact I took a screenshot of it to show my friends who demanded I stream it as soon as they saw it) that goes pitch-black, right after you have a series of tunnels that are at their darkest, and then you have the minotaur maze also in low levels (with a cyberdemon acting as the minotaur). Tonally it's still just as dark as E5M5, but aims for hopelessness and desolation over horror. "Stygian pocket of evil" indeed.


Realm of Iblis, the secret level, is tonally very close to E5M7 which I'll touch on in a minute. Courtesy of a recent replay however, I'll have to disagree with you, Watchtower, on this not having a distinct visual theme. In fact, I think it has the most concrete theme of Sigil. Something that always jumped out to me about this level were those very oddly cubic and small crushers that dot an entire area of the map. And on this last playthrough, when I went to refresh myself to write this all up, something else stood out to me. Right from the beginning, literally when you start the level, the first thing you see are metal platforms and cages in a lake of lava. Further in is the aforementioned crusher area, also with plenty of metal to spare. And the fort? Its ramparts are metallic. In fact this is the only time a lot of those circuitry textures show up in Sigil, and certainly the only time so much of it is on display. It even comes with that tech tower thing, which is unheard of in Hell levels.

All put together, and the level paints an image of what I think is intended to be a demonic metalworks factory. The metal over fire, the odd crushers that look like they belong on an assembly line, and what's in the metal fort but a cyberdemon. I think I understand now why the level was a bit of an oddball and thus made a secret level: it was the only one where Romero tried to build something that almost made sense. Obviously didn't go the full mile with it, but with this in mind it does nicely explain the level's odd quirks and why the cyberdemon fight was so...off.

I am not going to dwell on the music for this level, but I do want to take a moment to reiterate how much I love the level's Midi track, Adrenaline in the Blood. The second half of that song is legitimately beautiful and I am sad you never see remixes of the song ever. I could honestly do a breakdown and analysis of the song like I did the levels here, but I won't.


Nightmare Underworld, which wins the award for having the most opposite title, is probably the "happiest" level of the set. I use the term relatively, of course, but nonetheless. Despite its name, you have a clear view of the sky at almost all times, and the darkness that was so prominent in the previous two levels (secret level notwithstanding) is now used situationally instead. The level is much brighter, and it suits the tone. Even the music is more optimistic than the others, especially in comparison to the last few. It, along with E5M9, both signal you're nearing the end. The minimal use of sky until this point was very deliberate. It gives the vibe of crawling your way out of the blackest pits to see the light again. From no sky, to minimal sky, to absolute darkness, and now free and on your way to the end.

In terms of play, this level is by far the longest. And I believe it's because this is the final exam level. All the level design concepts from the others previous come into play at various points in the map: claustrophobic tunnels, narrow walkways, area denial, and darkness. And often several times. It doesn't bring much new that wasn't already seen, but that clearly was the intent. Again, as the longest level, and the last "real" one (most boss maps tend to be short romps to the showdown, if not skip to the showdown entirely, and Sigil is no different), it takes everything seen before and mixes it together as the final test and gauntlet for you to overcome.


And lastly, Halls of Perdition. The darkness is back, but it's not really used in a way that affects how you play; it's more for backdrop purposes. Indeed, short of the spider and cyberdemon fights, the darkness doesn't hinder you much. And as I said, boss levels in official or semi-official Doom mapsets tend to not be much more than short adventures before you face the finale. There's nothing much to speak of as the level itself isn't very intense, outside of probably having the most barons per area in Sigil (though not most barons overall).

The music is back to being intense like the first two levels, but much more grounded to suit the final showdown. The most distinct visual theme here are the glowing cracks in the darkness. I personally loved that detail, as it creates a wonderful bookend. Both to Sigil itself via the secret vista in the first level, and to Doom 1 overall through his own take on Phobos Anomaly which also showcased the cracks as a very prominent obstacle in that level. If you play KDiTD with his two levels included (MAPINFO is a wonderful thing so that the original levels aren't replaced), it really sells the idea that this is the real end of the game. While the "boss fights" aren't much to write home about, being just a fight with another spider and cyberdemon (though he does add a nice bit of catharsis to the level in the 1.2 update where, after fighting the cyberdemon, you have a small horde of lesser demons you can just BFG away), I think we can agree it is a better finale than what Unto the Cruel had (Possibly better than Inferno if you have the BFG that can kill the spider in one hit. At least here the darkness makes it a little harder.) Though I will cut john some slack here; without adding any new monsters, there really isn't much you can do for a finale with just the Doom 1 roster.

This post has been edited by Ninety-Six: 02 February 2021 - 06:39 AM

3

#3948

Great post, Ninety-six, I agree with most parts, and you know, we should form the Alliance of Adrenaline in Blood, it's really the greatest game soundtrack since VVVVVV's Positive Force.

As for Nightmare Underworld, you should know that the map was made right after E1M8b and E1M4b by Romero, when he didn't really add up what he wants to do with this game (or not everything about it). He originally wanted the level to be between E5M3 and E5M4, but since the map was much bigger and much harder than both, it was pushed to slot #7, where it technically looks out of place, because its a much happier place (despite its difficulty) than the levels before it. Thematically E5M6 should have been the penultimate level, it even makes a decent connection with E5M8, another somewhat dark level.

Also for that matter, E5M1 and E5M8 are very well related too. The former is the outer area of the same place, you can even see the mystic cracks of E5M8 from secret places. From E5M8, you can see the red outer zone too. It's a brilliant touch IMHO.

This post has been edited by The Watchtower: 02 February 2021 - 12:44 PM

1

User is offline   Malgon 

#3949

Not specifically Doom related but id Software have now turned 30!

https://twitter.com/...351303799222274
2

#3950

It might interest you relatively, but Onemandoom Blog doesn't seems to be dead as the 8 July KMX E XII message suggested, it is returned in activity. Latest review is the DOOM64 Lost Levels.
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User is offline   Ninety-Six 

#3951

Interesting. I personally never knew what to think of that site, since he seemed to love just about everything he reviewed in some shape or form. Given my, let's be generous, "contentious" opinions of the doom community's output, the mostly-positive outlook he gave equally to even more obscure works kind of landed him in a unique spot where I simultaneously valued and devalued his opinion.


That said, I ended up checking his site for updates quite frequently for about a year before that July message came up. Looking up certain wads on the site, and he would sometimes have useful advice or perhaps even a hint about how to deal with something in his review, even if unintentionally. The site covered a massive spectrum of wads so there was a good chance there was at least a mention of it somewhere.

It also made for great idle reading during certain downtimes. I have lamented not being able to read the latest reviews while waiting on various things. While I disagree very strongly with a lot of what he praises, I can't condemn him of engaging in favoritism. That's worth something in my book, especially from the doom community.
1

#3952

Yeah, if a review site can't tell the difference between a good wad and a bad wad, it's not exactly a worthy read.
0

User is offline   Ninety-Six 

#3953

View PostThe Watchtower, on 05 February 2021 - 08:19 AM, said:

Yeah, if a review site can't tell the difference between a good wad and a bad wad, it's not exactly a worthy read.


Honestly, it's less that he can't tell the difference and more that he's an optimist who tries to see the best in something, and grades more on how closely he believes an author came to fulfilling their own design goals. Take Jim Flynn and his frustrating hidden switch crap. It's terrible design, but Jim seemed to know that and was intentionally going against it just to be an asshole. So Kmexii would grade it on that, since it was intentional assholery.

And to be completely transparent, that's generally how I grade things, too. And in most cases if something is intentional that I don't like, I give it credit for succeeding but admit it's not really my thing and leave it at that.

The unfairness in doom wads is something I rag on about though because I see there's kind of a disconnect between intent and result. The intent being "make a hard wad" but the result being "making a bullshit wad." The completely erroneous belief that just because you can kill a player with cheap traps doesn't actually make the level hard. The belief that that is skillful, which then leads to more of that crap spreading like a virus, so that people who love battles (like me) just keep getting shafted over and over instead of having their mid-fight skills tested. etc etc
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User is offline   jkas789 

#3954

View PostNinety-Six, on 05 February 2021 - 03:13 PM, said:

The unfairness in doom wads is something I rag on about though because I see there's kind of a disconnect between intent and result. The intent being "make a hard wad" but the result being "making a bullshit wad." The completely erroneous belief that just because you can kill a player with cheap traps doesn't actually make the level hard. The belief that that is skillful, which then leads to more of that crap spreading like a virus, so that people who love battles (like me) just keep getting shafted over and over instead of having their mid-fight skills tested. etc etc


It is quite a chore, however to be fair I think that some traps here and there are good. Dark souls is a good example of a game that masterfully combines trap placement and enemy placement to fuck the player over without the player being angry at the game, but at themselves and their lack of ability to not git gud.
1

User is offline   Ninety-Six 

#3955

View Postjkas789, on 05 February 2021 - 05:15 PM, said:

It is quite a chore, however to be fair I think that some traps here and there are good. Dark souls is a good example of a game that masterfully combines trap placement and enemy placement to fuck the player over without the player being angry at the game, but at themselves and their lack of ability to not git gud.


Yeah I'm not against traps on the whole. I'm just against cheap traps that are more or less a guaranteed kill a player's first time through, requiring them to die to it to be able to deal with it in advance. A classic example for doom would be walking over an invisible linedef and being transported right in the middle of a horde of revenants, as in smack in the middle, and you will be punched to death unless you had the plasma gun or BFG in hand before you walked into it. Because you literally don't have time to switch once the trap is sprung.

In cases like those, the only lack of skill on display is that of the mapper's. There's nothing to- well, to say "nothing to learn" isn't quite accurate. They learn two valuable things: 1. The level designer is an asshole, and 2. where the trap is. But there's nothing permanent to learn from the experience. There's nothing to learn that the player could take with them into the next level or even the next mapset. There's nothing to reflect on for them to increase their overall skill and knowledgebase at the game as a whole.


I love me a hard game. I genuinely do. And I guess I'm in the minority, but I could die 50 times to a game in a row, and not get mad a single time so long as every 50 of those deaths felt like my fault. If I could reflect on what happened, point to where I went wrong in either my decision-making or where I went wrong in my execution, I'm perfectly happy. But when it's a cheap trap like above, there's nothing to learn. Nothing to improve upon, because a player did everything that they could correctly up to that point. They did everything right and were punished for not being psychic.

Me, personally, I love gaming exactly because of that ability to constantly be tested and to constantly try to improve. It's why I love these older FPSes, as I've said. I live for battle in these games. I love being tested in the moment and having to make lightning-quick decisions to survive, with the quality of those plans and the quality of their execution being what determines my continued life. I even go so far as to play saveless just because I like having the risk of a total reset to make the decision-making process a bit more interesting. I'm about as into the "get gud" mindset as someone can, because that improvement is the main attraction for me. But that said, I'm going to paraphrase a certain youtuber for this. I'm fine with a game or a level expecting perfection from me. But in return, it's only fair to expect perfection back. And if it can't deliver, "get gud" doesn't apply anymore.


It's why these rants keep showing up. I love Doom; I genuinely do. It's not my favorite FPS or anything, but I still do enjoy it. And the excessively few times where I've been in a challenging battle that was still feasibly winnable on my first attempt (regardless if I actually won it or not), it's great. But those times are few and far between and it just keeps breaking my heart.



EDIT: I do acknowledge the exception that are "troll levels" and other IWBTG-style level designs. I even like them, since in return for the cheap kills they give the player something back in return, usually in the form of humor to make the experience far less frustrating.

This post has been edited by Ninety-Six: 05 February 2021 - 08:26 PM

0

User is offline   ReaperAA 

#3956

View PostNinety-Six, on 05 February 2021 - 08:23 PM, said:

And the excessively few times where I've been in a challenging battle that was still feasibly winnable on my first attempt (regardless if I actually won it or not), it's great. But those times are few and far between and it just keeps breaking my heart.


I know you and I may have different opinions on Doom wads, but have you tried Alien Vendetta? It's a tough and challenging wad, but it rarely has any gotcha traps (it's traps are very different from something like Ancient Aliens). So far I have completed 25 maps of AV and most of my deaths genuinely felt my own fault.

If you played Hell Revealed, then AV would seem similar, just more polished.
1

User is offline   Ninety-Six 

#3957

View PostReaperAA, on 05 February 2021 - 10:20 PM, said:

If you played Hell Revealed, then AV would seem similar, just more polished.


Okay you actually have my attention. I did play HR a couple of years ago, to see if the "original" hard wad was the beginning of that trend I most despise. I actually didn't end up hating it, though I didn't actually complete it. Never made it to the third episode so I can't comment on the quality there, but I did make it about halfway in before I stopped playing. Not because it infuriated me or was too hard, but because I honestly got kind of bored holding down the fire button against three hundred barons. And then one of the levels was seemingly nothing but that and I started dying a lot because I just completely mentally checked out. At that point I decided to stop.

That being said, when HR did want to get challenging it got there. Maps 11 and 13(I think 13? It was the one that used Goin' Down the Fast Way) were the highlights, being fairly difficult without being bullshit. Not the hardest I ever experienced but it gave me a good run for my money.


So if AV is like that, just harder and less mass killing of walking doors, I'm actually a bit interested now. I never played it for more than a few minutes just to toy with things, so besides MAP20 being everyone's favorite apparently, I'm more or less blind on it.

I suppose it couldn't hurt to fire up one of these days. Why not; worst that can happen is that I hate it like the rest. No different than the normal. Best case and it lives up to your description and I finally find myself a winner.

Worth a shot.
0

User is offline   ReaperAA 

#3958

View PostNinety-Six, on 05 February 2021 - 10:40 PM, said:

Not because it infuriated me or was too hard, but because I honestly got kind of bored holding down the fire button against three hundred barons.


The good news is that AV is far less grindy than HR. AV does have a few grindy moments, but nowhere near HR (which is overly obsessed with barons).



1

User is offline   Ninety-Six 

#3959

View PostReaperAA, on 05 February 2021 - 11:28 PM, said:

The good news is that AV is far less grindy than HR. AV does have a few grindy moments, but nowhere near HR (which is overly obsessed with barons).


That it was. So that's good news at least.
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User is offline   ReaperAA 

#3960

Another wad I would recommend keeping an eye on is the currently-in-RC-phase Bourgeois Deathmatch. It is a universally compatible wad (vanilla wad that supports both SP and DM). The wad is pretty fun to play. The levels are moderately challenging and since the layouts are DM oriented, the levels in SP mode are short and each of them can be beaten in less than 5-minutes.
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