[Micky C]

Have the maps actually been tested in coop? I can foresee several problems with progression in my map due to doors that close behind the player...

[Daedolon]

Don't MP switches work in coop?

[Micky C]

IIRC out of all the DM/coop options for sprites, switches are the only ones that don't work in coop, and are reserved for DM. I remember hearing something about Megaton having a few extra options like pal 2 for something, but I'm not sure how useful that is for us in the grand scheme of things.

[MetHy]

DM switches and COOP switches are different, PAL1 switches only appear in DM and PAL2 switches only appear in COOP.

However, PAL1 weapons and iteams appear both in DM&COOP and you can't make DM or COOP only weapons/items.

I've become pretty good at coming up with solutions on how to make makes multiplayer compatible without changing how they work in SP so you can trust me.

edit : that's only for megaton?

[Micky C]

I would definitely ask around before assuming the pal 2 thing works in classic and eduke.

[ck3D]

i just got back from a three-week long trip abroad. i have no clue if anyone has tried to contact me about my map so far since i left, or if there are any issues to address about it to begin with ; i just thought i would post somewhat randomly to give a heads up and let you know that i am available to make any potential bug fixes and whatnot if needs be, now that i am back home and actually have access to a 'duke computer' again (always good to know).

also please note that i am well aware that there are some minor sprite-related visual issues in my map ; ie. pal 4 sprite pipes on some walls as shadows that can be destroyed independently from the actual pipe they are supposed to be casted from, or some two-sided sprite signs that are actually made of two different one-sided sprites (with different palette values or shade values for the sake of decoration) that can also be broken independently, making for unrealistic visual effects. really i do not care about realism enough to fix them and would like them to be left the way they are. basically those little things are pretty much deliberate and seeing as they do not affect the gameplay in any way and are purely cosmetic i don't think they should be touched. the map is as fun as it gets to be played as it is and that's what matters to me.

[Paul B]

@ High Treason - well as cool as the shooter effect on an elevator was I've managed to find a simpler implementation which isn't as complex and provides a better end result.

I've spent more time beta testing this map then building it. I wish I could do things right the first time. Crazy!

[Helixhorned]

MetHy, on 31 May 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:

DM switches and COOP switches are different, PAL1 switches only appear in DM and PAL2 switches only appear in COOP.

However, PAL1 weapons and iteams appear both in DM&COOP and you can't make DM or COOP only weapons/items.

(...)

edit : that's only for megaton?

Mickey C, on 31 May 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

I would definitely ask around before assuming the pal 2 thing works in classic and eduke.

Code in A_Spawn() suggests that a switch with any non-zero pal is removed in a game with more than one player. So this seems to be a Megaton extension.

[MetHy]

That's funny. I had no idea that was Megaton only (I just didn't think they would add such a thing to Megaton).

I'm glad you guys mentioned it though. This however just makes things VERY complicated for coop, as I understand from the infosuite page you can't make switches coop only, or even multiplayer (both coop&dm) only, JUST dm-only.

In other words, I can't think of a way to prevent the possibility of getting stuck in quite a few maps (High Treason's, Mickey C's, Cage's, perhaps even others...); unless we come up with a brilliant idea.
There is always the possibility of making the 2nd coop player spawn in a seperate space with a touchplate which alters the maps so that players can't get stuck in coop; however, that would render the point of the some maps null in coop; and even then, that wouldn't work for every map (I know it's hard for you to imagine without having looked at the map, but the people concerned should understand what i mean)

I have to say though that this PAL2 for coop thing is VERY handy and a great idea, and I can only recommend you to add that to eduke32

[Jblade]

There's no point worrying about multiplayer for Eduke32 since it's broken and there's no ETA on when it's going to be functional again. It could be years for all we know.

[MetHy]

Well like I said I like to think ahead; and I read a post in another thread of TX saying someone might be willing to work on the netplay code so I had my hopes up.

It all depends how complicated it can get; I'll have a look at the maps that can cause coop players to get stuck and see if things can be sorted out by having a simple system such as :
-Coop player 2 spawns in a place with a touchplate before getting instantly being teleported to playfield area
-that touchplate opens up small pannels on the map which hid switches allowing you to (re)open places that may get you stuck in coop

If this works, it's pretty easy. However I'm thinking it may not work in some maps because sometimes it's a little more complicated than just that. I'll have a look.

[Paul B]

Like Methy mentioned, my map does both Co-op and Death match successfully using the one way tele-port method for the second player death match starting APlayer. Since the death match Duke APlayer isn't the same as the regular co-op Duke players because of a Aplayer lowtag there shouldn't be any problem making Death Match / Co-op distinguishable.

The only thing you need to confirm is that the second Aplayer death match duke starts above the one way teleport, otherwise the whole thing breaks.

I've also used this strategy for preventing players from ending the map in Death Match or Activating / De Activating the motion sensors in the Death match environment as well opening up areas of the map to allow the player to get around better in death match but not in Co-op.

The nice thing about Build/Mapster anything is just about possible, it's just a matter of how much time you want to invest?

The mappers who make their map should be the ones making these multi-player allowances because they know their map best and they know how the map should be played out. If a third party makes modifications to someone's map by tweaking this type of game play they could end up tampering and breaking certain parts of the map unknowingly. I ended up unknowingly breaking my map several times just from tampering.

[Helixhorned]

MetHy, on 31 May 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:

DM switches and COOP switches are different, PAL1 switches only appear in DM and PAL2 switches only appear in COOP.

MetHy, on 01 June 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

I have to say though that this PAL2 for coop thing is VERY handy and a great idea, and I can only recommend you to add that to eduke32

A problem is that such a change is not backwards compatible: it would remove pal 2 switches in Dukematch. Thankfully it looks that not many maps use switches with pals greater than 1. Searching my usermaps directory for wall-aligned sprites of pal > 1 whose tile name contains "SWITCH" (but neither "ACCESS" nor "MASTER"), only two maps are found: ROCH7 and sunshine_dp.

Spoiler

Not manually of course. Revision 4499+ required.

$ ./findmaps.sh ~/.eduke32 'sprite: bit.bor(.cstat,16)~=0 and .pal>1 and .lotag~=0 and rdefs[.picnum] and rdefs[.picnum]:match("SWITCH") and not rdefs[.picnum]:match("ACCESS") and not rdefs[.picnum]:match("MASTER")'
(...)
~/.eduke32/attrition/attmaps/ROCH7.map: 2665
~/.eduke32/0usermaps/02009/sunshine_dp.map: 9771

So it seems that it's not too big of an obstacle for implementing the Megaton behavior. The few problematic maps would have to be tweaked if anyone wanted to play them in Dukematch.

[MetHy]

So I've recieved Drek's full beta report. I will try to find time later today to put it together with Mister Sinister's and mine and send it to everybody.
Got not much from Steambull because of shit going on in his life and he apologizes for that.

[MetHy]

So, I was just thinking. There are 4 maps which provide health packs at the very end just before exiting the level; there is the lobby map and daedolon's map which give 1x 30hp; then James map which provide 2x 30hp and Cage's map which provide 3x 30hp. (the secret map provide an atomic health, too, which is the reward for the boss map after finding the secret map)

I was just thinking that we should make that consistent. I think we should make it so that every map provides one 30hp pack just before exiting (like, make it respawn when the path to the stairs get opened). It's kind of weird atm that only a few seperate maps do it and do it with a different number of packs. Giving a 30hp on each map would prevent the player from killing himself at the start of each map to get back to 100hp or to wander for HP in the map before exiting if he's low on health.

What do you think?

[Forge]

i think you should get to work implementing it

[stumppy84]

Methy,
Replace my poster with Daedolon on the MODB page. I won't be offended, it was more of a "proof of concept".
No need for 3 posters!

[Paul B]

Can I just place a Health Kit at the Top of the Stairs unreachable to Duke? He can see it as he exits the map but will never reach it because the map ends before he attempts to get it. Or did i miss the point? Are we trying to boost the players health before the map ends? Either way its a simple Respawn sprite I can add if absolutely needed.

I don't really see the point off adding the health kit because every player will have a different amount of health taken away at the end of each level and sometimes more than 30 + damage. So i'm not really sure what difference it makes whether we include that health kit or not? Seems kind of trivial to me.

[MetHy]

That'd be useless stupid trolling. We don't want the episode be commented on and remembered for its trolling rather than its qualities

[Paul B]

MetHy, on 04 June 2014 - 06:19 AM, said:

That'd be useless stupid trolling. We don't want the episode be commented on and remembered for its trolling rather than its qualities

Methy who are you referring to about your last statement. I don't see anyone trolling here? =S

[Kyanos]

One persons map spawned a few 30hp bottles just as the key was used to open the stairs. They spawned right in front of me, let me start the next level with full health. Every other map I finished I was usually so low on health that I just ran around and got a feel for the next map, died on purpose then start over with full health. If every map starts no weapons, there is no reason for the player to start at even 90hp.

As for the trolling comment, if you put health out of reach its a tease not a help.

[MetHy]

I think 1x30hp is fine enough. 2 at best I guess if that's what everyone wants, but 3 would be too much imo.

I'd rather go for 1x30hp because more than that would nullify the difference between good players and very good players; with more than 1x30hp that would mean bad players are rewarded more than good ones.
Plus since we're already taking out weapons, if we force start 100hp every map, gameplay will feel more like a collection maps rather than episode (not sure if i explain what i mean well... )
And if people want to cheat and commit suicide at the start of a map, that's lame, but they can.

[Paul B]

MetHy, on 04 June 2014 - 07:05 AM, said:

I think 1x30hp is fine enough. 2 at best I guess if that's what everyone wants, but 3 would be too much imo.

I'd rather go for 1x30hp because more than that would nullify the difference between good players and very good players; with more than 1x30hp that would mean bad players are rewarded more than good ones.
Plus since we're already taking out weapons, if we force start 100hp every map, gameplay will feel more like a collection maps rather than episode (not sure if i explain what i mean well... )
And if people want to cheat and commit suicide at the start of a map, that's lame, but they can.

Being that i'm unfamiliar with the game play of the episode I just naturally assumed everyone would start the next level or map with full health. I didn't realize the health wasn't reset between levels. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to realize that it might only make sense to have one large health pack spawn when the end of the level keylock is used. That makes the most sense to me for everyone. If we boost the players health too much then we may as well just have everyone start with 100 health at the start of every level. 30 health points is a perfect number.

[MetHy]

I think 1x30HP is good because it avoids starting with too low HP the next map. More than that could nullify gameplay progression feel for the player and would also reward bad players more. It would also mean there is no need to play too well and pay attention because you know you'll be given 60hp at the end anyway. imo that goes against any video game logic (at least as far as retro games are concerned)

An atomic health is WAY too much. That would mean the possibility of starting every map with at least 150hp. With an atomic health, I know most people will just go wander through the entire level picking up all the HP they left or even drink water so they can start the next map with 150hp. The point of that 1x30hp is also to prevent players wasting their time going around the entire level again to pick up hp before the next level, not to encourage it.
And that's without even mentionning the fact that some maps already provide atomic healths; some hidden, some not so hidden, some not hidden at all. There is already two maps very good players could leave with 200hp if they play well and/or pick up the atomic healths before leaving the map..

[Kyanos]

I agree starting a map with a min of 30 hp is good enough. I admit it felt real cheap suiciding for some hp. 1x30 would be enough to prevent me from suiciding for health. A few times I started levels less than 5 hp.

[MetHy]

So, I've just thought of something for coop.

Having coop only switches inside small panel systems for coop can still be possible.

I'm pretty sure this only concerns Mickey C, High Treason and Cage but it might also concern Mikko depending on whether or not he changes one thing for his map and how he changes it.
The idea is that, we want switches to open up places that could get the player stuck in coop (or alternatively which opens a one way teleporter); that is to say every time a path closes behind the player; but obviously we want this switch to be only in coop, AND only preferably only use-able when/if needed.

I thought PAL2 worked but since it doesn't, here is the idea :
- for each time the path gets blocked, have a panel system in a wall next to the blocked path with a switch inside that opens up the door/path (or which opens up a teleporter, if needed and if there is space)
- this small pannel has 2 "doors" and one switch behind those "doors"
- the door closest to the switch opens whenever there will be need for the switch; for example, let's say you have a door that gets locked behind the player and blocks the path to players behind that door. Either with a new touchplate or with the same one depending on the situation, make it so that this also opens that door in that panel on the other side of the blocked path so that coop players who are left behind or who died can use that switch to open the path as soon as the path is blocked
- The 2nd door in the pannel (preferably the one farthest to the switch out of the 2 doors of the panel) serves the purpose of making it all coop only and not noticeable/use-able in sp :
Have the 2nd player start the map in a small sector outside of the map which teleports him immediatly in the template area, but which also activates a touchplate that opens ALL of those 2nd doors of all panels.

This means that; even in SP, the player will open one of the door of each pannel as he goes through the map but will never realize it thanks to the 2nd door the pannel has; and it becomes use-able in coop thanks to the trick involving those 2nd doors which are all connected together and only open up with that 2Nd player coop start.

But wait - it gets more complicated :
- we have to be sure the coop spawn in the teleporting area with the touchplate IS the 2nd player and not the 3rd or 4th. I THINK the 2nd player spawn in the last one you built but if someone can confirm this, please let me know, or else i'll do researches to confirm this. edit : so yes, 2nd player is the last coop spawnpoint you make, so you can just delete one and re-make it
- if your map has no pistol; or little ammo; or the risk of the coop player running out of pistol ammo or not having access to the pistol when he meets the switch; the doors of the pannel have to be slide doors. Indeed, with any other type of doors, you can only shoot the switches, not USE them. I remember there was also an issue with the lower/rise sector SE but I don't remember what exactly, but there was a reason I used slide doors when I built similar pannels.
- with slide doors, if you want the button NOT to be push-able through the wall before the pannel opens (i wouldn't blame you if you didn't but it's better imo especialyl considering the switches WILL be there in SP), the switch and the pannel have to be really small, the size of a 10x10 sized switched; and you have to make sure the SE, Activator and Speed sprites of the slide doors are in the middle of the pannel and 'hide the path' before the doors get opened. So this is not mandatory but it's highly recommended, or else SP players might be able to use the switch if they notice a small part of the wall looks different or if they randomly press use everywhere while looking for secrets etc
-You can also make sure the pannel is not noticeable in SP. So you can use the same texture as the wall you put it in for the doors, and the space between the first wall and the closest 'door' of the pannel could have the size of "1"
-Don't forget the new sector for the 2nd player with the one way teleporter also has to be hurtfloor

So there, that should work. It sounds like trouble but it really isn't complicated especially considering that I believe Mickey C's map needs only 1 pannel at the start; High Treason needs 2 but actually since both doors work together you can make that just one as well; and IF mikko will need it, it will only be one pannel too. Only Cage's map will probably need more.

To Mikko : when I say you might need it, you'll know what I mean when you get the beta report; i'm putting them all together as we speak so it should be soon.

Edit : I know it sounds like trouble, especialyl considering eduke32 multiplayer is broken at this point; but considering everybody's built weaponless coop spawn point in their maps it would be stupid not to do it. When it's just one pannel it takes a couple of mins; only Cage will need more. If you're really busy and you trust me I guess I can help.

I'm still for hearing everyone's opinion on the hp packs discussion we were having

[Paul B]

I'll add the 30 HP med pack to my map just to free you up Methy. But i'll do that once I've heard back from the beta testers to make sure everything is ok. Then i'll send one last really really final update.

[MetHy]

Okay I'm screwed. I wanted to make sure which DM spawn point is the 2nd player (if it's the first you build, or the last; and i think it's the last), so I made a test map that just consists of a room with a player start + 7 coop spawn points next to numbers in order of which I created them; I wanted to use my two 2 steam accounts and my computer+my gf's laptop to run the test; and i wanted to do it in Megaton.

Then suddenly of course Megaton stops working (it goes back to desktop after the logo) and there is nothing I can do about it. I guess I'll have to use xduke and metldown or whatever, I always get trouble bullshit like this.

My point is, if anybody knows please let me know; or knows of another way to find this out.

I know for a fact that in DM the last you make is the 2nd player start so I'm thinking it's the same for coop but I'd like to be able to confirm this.

Edit : i'm still workign on putting all the beta reports together btw, i'm half way through it now.

[Daedolon]

It's the sprite order, similar to the cameras.

[MetHy]

So, the last sprite put is 2nd player; thanks, that helps.