[Hank]

DaveyDoomsday, on 19 July 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

http://www.escapistm...heckpoint-Saves <-- Seriously, read this.

I did. Considering the debugging for on demand saves and the high risk to fail; it's easier to take complains from fans now to have check points rather then later, when mystery bugs show up, and the player may not even be able to continue where he left off, and really starts complaining?

Also, Harrison Fjord or Harrison Fnord ?

[MusicallyInspired]

DaveyDoomsday, on 19 July 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

There's enough checkpoints in each level that no matter where you die you'll never lose more than a minute or so of progress. We made sure of that. Also, you can play from any checkpoint at any time with any character and it will start you with the same weapons that you had. So it's practically saving.

Except you don't need make yourself stop and do it yourself, which makes the game too easy. You can never really fail. That's one of the modern game mechanics that I despise the most. It's hand-holding.

That's too bad...:/

[Micky C]

Well, I'm not entirely sold, and I'd still prefer manual saves. But at least you're being kinda honest about it. If the checkpoints really are every minute or so, and you can reload from any previous checkpoint then it's not too bad, but of course we'll have to play the game to find out.

If it's a matter of time and resources then it'd be fantastic if it was implemented as a later patch or something.

[Kathy]

DaveyDoomsday, on 19 July 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

it's so hard to have save states in modern games unless you have a giant budget like Skyrim:

Let's not exaggerate.

[Player Lin]

DaveyDoomsday, on 19 July 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

There's enough checkpoints in each level that no matter where you die you'll never lose more than a minute or so of progress. We made sure of that. Also, you can play from any checkpoint at any time with any character and it will start you with the same weapons that you had. So it's practically saving.

Croteam isn't a company had many budgets, is it?...

Sounds fair. But they're still checkpoints, right? And I failed to see any points that can't do a whole save-state if can doing a lot of checkpoints...

It's not really old-school enough for me...at least compare with RotT classic.

[DaveyDoomsday]

MusicallyInspired, on 19 July 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

Except you don't need make yourself stop and do it yourself, which makes the game too easy. You can never really fail. That's one of the modern game mechanics that I despise the most. It's hand-holding.

That's too bad...:/

It's actually the opposite of hand-holding since you can't "save scum" and save or load right before or after you get through a hard part of a level. This is especially true in levels like "The Room" wherein each puzzle room is essentially its own level that we want you to complete in one run. Herein lies the challenge. Especially if you're going for Scott's Mystical Head. If you could save and load after every trap or jump you got past, you'd be practically cheating or holding your own hand! And since you can actually cheat in the game, at that point you might as well /fly and bypass the traps altogether

Even if you completely despise checkpoints in games, know that in ROTT '13 they totally work. And I'm obviously going to say 'wait until you play it!' to decide for yourself. Even then, if you completely hate it, then that's your opinion and I'm cool with that. This is America, you can hate our game all you want, but I don't think you will. Trust me when I say the system is pretty sound. Nobody who has played the game so far has complained in the slightest. This includes old-school gamers and new school gamers alike.

And Kathy, perhaps Skyrim was a bit of an exaggeration but it's a prime example of a modern game with enormous levels that save EVERYTHING. And god knows how buggy that gets. But please remember, we are a small team with a small (nearly non-existent) budget. So what's possible even for developers like Croteam, simply isn't possible for us. Frederik has done an exceptional job with the resources we have and I stand by his decisions and am proud to represent them for better or worse.

FNORD!

[Mr.Deviance]

DaveyDoomsday, on 20 July 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

This is America, you can hate our game all you want, but I don't think you will

How do you come up with such corny ass lines is what I am wondering.
It's already clear to me that as the pr of this project, it's your job to say anything and everything to get the game sold but that line right there just made me face palm...
The cringe factor on that sentence is the sole reason I would fire you if you were my pr guy.
Good luck...

[Radar]

Go screw yourself. Dave's doing a great job. He acts like he's one us, except with some inside information. If you don't like how he's handling it, then maybe they could just get a PR guy that spends zero time on forums and leaves us in the dark like every other game studio.

[Engel220]

Ms. Radar, on 20 July 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

Go screw yourself. Dave's doing a great job. He acts like he's one us, except with some inside information. If you don't like how he's handling it, then maybe they could just get a PR guy that spends zero time on forums and leaves us in the dark like every other game studio.

Well said. Realistically, how often do you see game development staff actively hanging around on forums that aren't directly related to their products or company? Not very many. The fact that the head of Interceptor hangs out here is impressive, usually key development team figures hand all this stuff over to those lower on the food chain (e.g. Gearbox's Adam F and Chris F, aka the Sentinels), and anyone else from Interceptor being here is a great bonus (Dave, for one). They're not obligated to be here, they could just stick to their site and promote through the usual media, but instead they come to where the Duke/RoTT fans are and address fans questions and concerns directly.

Frankly, a lot of companies could take lessons from them in developer/player relations.

[MusicallyInspired]

DaveyDoomsday, on 20 July 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

It's actually the opposite of hand-holding since you can't "save scum" and save or load right before or after you get through a hard part of a level. This is especially true in levels like "The Room" wherein each puzzle room is essentially its own level that we want you to complete in one run. Herein lies the challenge. Especially if you're going for Scott's Mystical Head. If you could save and load after every trap or jump you got past, you'd be practically cheating or holding your own hand! And since you can actually cheat in the game, at that point you might as well /fly and bypass the traps altogether

Except that with manual saves it's on you if you forget to save. In this scenario you never have to worry about it because it always saves for you. It's not the player's responsibility anymore. One less thing he has to worry about thinking to do. I consider that part of the playing experience, not a detractor of the experience. So I submit that autosaves/checkpoints are more hand-holding than manual saves. I'm much more about holding your own hand anyway than something watching your back. I'm just against immunity to failure of any kind. That's the core of the oldschool experience. Not just manual saves, but a possibility for complete failure. Nobody likes dying anymore and starting over. To that I say, well, you should have saved. I consider that part of the game. Another obstacle to overcome as a player.

All things considered I can understand if it's not possible for you guys to implement, although I find that strange and somewhat suspicious. I get the feeling you're exaggerating the difficulty in adding it. Maybe it is a lot of work but at the worst it'd be time-consuming not difficult. Then again maybe you're not exaggerating. Either way I understand, really. But I am disappointed. I've never heard of implementing manual saves as being a difficult thing to do for a developer. Ever. Not that I don't believe you, the whole thing is just strange seeing as it's never seemed to be an issue to anybody before...at least publicly. But it is a huge detractor for me.

Also, I never said I hated the game. Please don't assume such things. I believe all I said was "That's too bad...:/". What I am is very disappointed. Disappointed that we aren't going to be allowed to play the game the way we choose to play it, with decisions like checkpoints every other minute being made for us. You can say it steps on how you want the game presented. I say letting the gamers choose how they want to play your game is the better way to go. Anyway. I'm just ranting. This is all moot because it's apparently not possible either way.

[Kathy]

These forums surely aren't 'America'.

Btw, will there be a demo or something?

[Mr.Deviance]

Ms. Radar, on 20 July 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

Go screw yourself. Dave's doing a great job. He acts like he's one us, except with some inside information. If you don't like how he's handling it, then maybe they could just get a PR guy that spends zero time on forums and leaves us in the dark like every other game studio.

I rather go and screw myself than be grateful because the pr guy of a company owned by fresch is ACTING like one of us around here.
Maybe he's acting like you if you feel this so much but he could definitely never be able to act like me, that's for sure.
It's very hard to act like me when your job requires you to be a professional bullshitter.
In case it's not already clear, I have no sort of respect or sympathy for the PR profession, simply because I know that to get the job you have to be able to take a piece of shit and wrap it in a nice shiny cover with a red bow tied to it and then attempt to sell it as something very valuable. I have 0 respect for people that make a living out of selling lies and false hype.
The pr guy in my mind, is the one guy that sells false hopes and dreams just like politicians do.
The biggest pr guy that I've seen until now that's related to this community, is that regurgitated putrid scumbag of a magician that owns Gearbox.



I am not saying this game is a piece of shit, I am just saying I don't like bullshit when I see it and PR people are the fist people to find it at.

[DaveyDoomsday]

Mr.Deviance, on 20 July 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

I rather go and screw myself than be grateful because the pr guy of a company owned by fresch is ACTING like one of us around here.
Maybe he's acting like you if you feel this so much but he could definitely never be able to act like me, that's for sure.
It's very hard to act like me when your job requires you to be a professional bullshitter.
In case it's not already clear, I have no sort of respect or sympathy for the PR profession, simply because I know that to get the job you have to be able to take a piece of shit and wrap it in a nice shiny cover with a red bow tied to it and then attempt to sell it as something very valuable. I have 0 respect for people that make a living out of selling lies and false hype.
The pr guy in my mind, is the one guy that sells false hopes and dreams just like politicians do.
The biggest pr guy that I've seen until now that's related to this community, is that regurgitated putrid scumbag of a magician that owns Gearbox.



I am not saying this game is a piece of shit, I am just saying I don't like bullshit when I see it and PR people are the fist people to find it at.

Wow, as someone who has built a reputation on being one of the the most, if not THE MOST transparent motherfucker in video game marketing and PR, it upsets me that you think I've ever tried to sell any of you guys bullshit. If you think I'm acting then I must be one hell of an actor. Look back at this forum, at every forum, every thread, every interview, every facebook, twitter, and youtube comment about ROTT that I answer with a 100% no bullshit attitude. Seriously. If I'm 'acting' then GIVE ME MY GOD DAMNED OSCAR RIGHT NOW!

But seriously, even if you hate marketing/pr people, then disregard everything I've said and just let the game speak for itself.

[DaveyDoomsday]

Kathy, on 20 July 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

These forums surely aren't 'America'.

Btw, will there be a demo or something?

"I'M SORRY, I THOUGHT THIS WAS AMERICA." Maybe I should have said Denmark? :-p

Yeah, we're looking to do a full on shareware episode post release. But it's all up to Fred and the guys as to when/how. The general consensus is that we'll base it off the original Hunt Begins episode, since that seems like a pretty cool idea.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Dave's not just a "PR" guy. He put his own money into funding development. I don't think that happens at other developers/publishers.

[----]

Player Lin, on 20 July 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

And I failed to see any points that can't do a whole save-state if can doing a lot of checkpoints...

So, saving the navigation node of the player plus a few vars for weapons doesn't sound easier to do than all properties of all objects in game, from enemies to flying bullets in an engine that can stream levels and which you can map in different editor instances that later can be overlayed ingame, etc...?

If you fail to see that I wonder what you see if you encounter a not completely obvious fact?

[DaveyDoomsday]

Mr. Tibbs, on 20 July 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

Dave's not just a "PR" guy. He put his own money into funding development. I don't think that happens at other developers/publishers.

It's not just me. We all put our own money into this project. We're all pretty much in debt at this point. I sold my car, I'm selling my house, you guys know Fred has dumped everything he has into it as well. We're all in on this thing. Every one of us. It's scary, but you can't go half way when you've only got one shot imo. That's why I find it funny when people talk about us like we're any other game developer. You know, the ones with a budget. Or that we can be hired or fired AS IF WE GET PAID FOR THIS.

Then again, it's flattering in a way that people talk about a small, self funded independent virtual studio like we're an established developer with offices and a payroll and criticize us in the same way. I guess that means we're doing a pretty good job so far.

[Bloodshot]

As long as there is a lot it should be perfectly fine.

The only time checkpoints bother me is when they are too far apart, or when open-ended games use them.

Imagine how discouraged the player would be in a game like Crysis 1 from experimenting with everything they possibly can in the environment as weapons knowing they'd have to restart at an older checkpoint every time they messed something up. I sort of had this problem with Far Cry 3 because the saving system was wonky as hell and was more like a respawning system then anything.

But for a game like this it makes sense, especially with things like traps you have to go through - of course either way it wouldn't effect the challenge for me probably, because I have a habit of saving with restraint, never saving during encounters or in the middle of something going on anyway.

[K100]

Mr Deviance, you should read this article from last year on Dave's blog:

http://bloggalog.com...he-thick-of-it/

Really interesting article about his involvement on ROTT.

[----]

DaveyDoomsday, on 20 July 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

Then again, it's flattering in a way that people talk about a small, self funded independent virtual studio like we're an established developer with offices and a payroll and criticize us in the same way. I guess that means we're doing a pretty good job so far.

You know, Mr. Deviance often tries to come across as if he has deep insight into stuff and has a well funded opinion when the opposite is often the truth. The foundation of his building has more termites in it than one can see at first glance.

[Ronin]

[DaveyDoomsday]

Ronan, on 20 July 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

Lol. The last thing I want is people getting into arguments on this forum. I like it a lot better when it's about actual Rise of the Triad development info, don't you?

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and personally Mr. Deviance's criticisms of both Fresch, Interceptor (and now even myself!) over the years helped shape how I handle Interceptor's messaging - so if anything you guys should thank him for his harsh crits. In fact, if it wasn't for his posts I never would have finally made a Duke4 account and started posting here, nor would I have ever been able to make things like this Duke Nukem 2013 mod playthrough:

http://youtu.be/_C3SKDwFh-8

Go look back in this thread, I ain't lyin'

You might see his comments as "Mr. Deviance giving Dave shit" but I see them as, "Hmm, maybe sometimes I say things that come off as corny, lame, disingenuous or sound "like marketing copy" even when it's not intentional.

Meanwhile, in relevant news: ROTT IS PLAYABLE AT PAX AUSTRALIA RIGHT NOW!!!1 So if any of you are in the area, I encourage you to go check it out

[Ronin]

DaveyDoomsday, on 20 July 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

Lol. The last thing I want is people getting into arguments on this forum. I like it a lot better when it's about actual Rise of the Triad development info, don't you?

Yep, I just like that gif. Decent once inserted it into the middle of an argument I was having with someone and it made me laugh and probably helped diffuse the situation.

[DaveyDoomsday]

Ronan, on 20 July 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

Yep, I just like that gif.

I prefer this one myself:

[Ronin]

Ha ha that's pretty good too, must remember that one.

[Frederik Schreiber]

Looks like I missed a good fight

[DavoX]

Frederik Schreiber, on 20 July 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

Looks like I missed a good fight

Don't worry, you can go back a few checkpoints to see it

[Radar]

LOL TOO BAD WE COULDN'T MANUALLY SAVE IT.

Alright bad joke I know...

[Mr.Deviance]

fuegerstef, on 20 July 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

You know, Mr. Deviance often tries to come across as if he has deep insight into stuff and has a well funded opinion when the opposite is often the truth. The foundation of his building has more termites in it than one can see at first glance.

Termites are great builders and very organized little creatures.
If my foundation has termites then they surely built it with formidable ingenuity and durability.
If you've never seen a termite hive, I suggest you check some pics out quickly.

Smart ass remarks aside. My opinions are strongly against pr people.
As a rule of thumb, I never trust nor look too deep at what pr people have to say.
My previous remarks about Dave were just my opinions on pr guys and on this guy in particular that seems to try really desperately to convince people that checkpoints are better than quick saves.
That's what primarily ticked me off and then as I read through his explications and his attempts to convince the guy he was talking to that checkpoints are better than quick saves, he suddenly pulls out the most fucking obnoxious reasoning I've seen in a long time "This is America, you can hate our game all you want"
When I got to that point I couldn't actually fathom that what he just wrote that, being a pr and shit, I would have expected him to know better than post such stuff as if it's supposed to actually be funny or make sense.
He could have very well said that checkpoints work better than quick saves because... "america fuck yeah"

And now after all I said about him, he starts praising me. I don't even want to comment on this shit anymore, it disgusts me.
Dave dude, I understand you are selling your house soon for this game and if I wasn't cynical I would actually say wow I'm impressed that you have so much dedication to see this game making it big.
But because I am a cynical guy, I will have to say that if you actually TRULY sold your house to fund the development of this game,
1. you are either are either rich enough to afford to sell your house without having to worry that you will go on the streets if this game flops and fails to sell as much as your team is predicting.
2. You are bullshitting and you aren't actually selling your house, you are just trying to impress people around here with your dedication to this project.
3. You are a crazy irresponsible suicidal person that is risking ending up on the streets under the fucking bridge for a fucking remake of a game that almost 80% of the gamers today haven't heard about.
Your game better be fucking legendary which after I've seen gameplay of it, will surely not be in this big sea of 1000 games that come out each year on multiple platforms.

And if you aim so high with this game, you would certainly not be so desperate as to try and advertise this game to a forum like this where most of it's users are a few disgruntled DNF fans and old apogee/3dreams fans like myself.
I'm pretty sure that if everybody on this forum bought your game, you would still not get to make enough profit to buy a new house.

It leaves me completely untouched to hear that you've completely changed your job strategy because of me and it makes it a little sad that I am the only reason for which you decided to make an account on this forum.
One would have expected that you registered here mainly to share something duke nukem related, not just to put me in my place.
Now I will resume to only reading this topic as I did until pointing out some of the bullshit that was going on lately around here .
I sure hope you are willing to put your money where your mouth is when it comes to selling that house.
Good luck and all jokes and evil wishes aside (not that it would make the least of difference to me but) I sure hope you don't get to live in a sewer after this game comes out.

If you accept unrequested suggestions from strangers such as myself, I would recommend you not to sell your house for this game, nor for any game development for that matter, simply because it's a very risky irresponsible thing to do.

[Radar]

How about you just shorten your posts to "I'm a dickwad" instead of making us read a novel each time?