[Kristian Joensen]

I won't lie, I am not at all a fan of checkpoint save systems. It means you can't quit playing just any time. DNF took me much much longer to play through due to my inability to save at any time. In a game with only checkpoints you have to play until the next checkpoint which you have no idea when it will be. Quitting in between checkpoints leads to lost progress and having to repeat areas(in DNF's case many many times due to dying in between checkpoints). For me as someone who really really really sucks, checkpoint systems are an added obstacle to getting through a game.

That being said it won't stop me from getting ROTT 2013 and I certainly expect to enjoy it a lot. But the checkpoint system will almost certainly lessen my enjoyment. That is unless they have checkpoints literally every 3 - 5 minutes. Even then with a checkpoint system you usually only have the equivalent of one save slot. So if you are low on health and/or ammo when reaching a checkpoint it can but you in a really bad spot.

I have only ever completed 3 FPS games without cheating: DNF(but not the SP DLC), Bioshock Infinite and Quake 1. After all these years of trying I have yet to complete Duke3D's E1L2, Red Light District without cheating. Currently I am playing Shadow Warrior Classic Redux on Steam and I have completed the first 7 levels of the game so far. But I am saving literally all the time. From once every 5 minutes or so all the way up to several times/minute. Although I am dying a lot less in Shadow Warrior than I did in DNF.

[NY00123]

Guesses for possible reasons for *not* letting one save anywhere:
- I don't know if it's related, but on a PC/Mac with a full/medium sized keyboard it's common to have a couple of keys for quick saving and loading, which may be a good reason for letting one save anywhere. So it's possible that it seems to make less sense on platforms with no more than a few game controllers (e.g. consoles). I have some doubts about this, though.
- It may complicate the coding; It's impossible to make assumptions that fail in case in-level saving is supported. Furthermore, when a game is patched, existing saved games may become useless. Finally (not sure about this) if checkpoints are all that you have then they take less space on the disk?

One game that takes a hybrid approach (well, at least the PC release) is Serious Sam 3: BFE. You can save anywhere, but it encourages the player to take advantage of no more than the automatic saves (i.e. checkpoints).

[Kathy]

Kristian Joensen, on 18 July 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

After all these years of trying I have yet to complete Duke3D's E1L2, Red Light District without cheating.

Even on Piece Of Cake?!

[Kristian Joensen]

Kathy, on 18 July 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

Even on Piece Of Cake?!

Yes indeed! I told you I suck!

[Radar]

After 17 years you should be able to complete the whole game on CGS in a half hour.

[Kathy]

I fairly certain most people here can complete E1L1 blindfolded.

....okay, maybe not. I tried and couldn't.

How the hell did you complete other levels in the first episode, Kristian? Cause first two are fairly simple in comparison. Or you didn't?

[Kristian Joensen]

Kathy, on 18 July 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

I fairly certain most people here can complete E1L1 blindfolded.

....okay, maybe not. I tried and couldn't.

How the hell did you complete other levels in the first episode, Kristian? Cause first two are fairly simple in comparison. Or you didn't?

I have never gotten past E1L2 without cheating. E1L1 I have completed many many countless times. It is has been so long I have tried playing Duke3D in anything but a straight linear level after level fashion that I honestly don't remember if I have completed other levels without cheating. But I can only conclude for me that E1L2 is much harder than all of DNF, all of Bioshock Infinite and all of Quake 1. I think it took me around the 5 - 10 hour mark to complete Quake 1, around the 12 - 15 hour mark to complete Bioshock Infinite and around the 30 - 40 hour mark to complete DNF. The first 7 levels of Shadow Warrior have also been a breeze compared to E1L2 of Duke3D.

I used to be a big cheater in games back from when I started gaming in the mid 90s until the early 2000s. I have never ever done it since.

[Radar]

LOL. I know how it's like being a cheater. Back when I was 9 dnkroz and dnstuff were typed in immediately when starting the game. I eventually let go of dnstuff realizing that getting the keys would ruin the level progression. I ditched cheats completely when I was 12 I think.

[MusicallyInspired]

I cheated through games all the time when I was a kid because I was incredibly insecure and not confident. However, once I got used to the game I'd play through it legit. FPS games don't scare me anymore like they used to. E1L2 is a breeze now. I fly through all the levels not giving any enemies time to even react to me. I've been playing on Let's Rock for too long and need to graduate to CGS. Not that I was scared, just out of habit because I'd just spam enter in the menu until the game started. I was obsessed with finishing the game in the fastest way possible.

I was also the king of keyboard control. Now that polymer is here I use the mouse, but 8-bit will always be keyboard d for me.

[Kristian Joensen]

I just don't get how I can complete the entirity of DNF, the entirty of Bioshock Infinite(what a great game) and the entirty of Quake 1 but I can't complete E1L2, how can it be harder for me than entire games?

[Kathy]

Where exactly are you having troubles? I'm baffled.

[Inspector Lagomorf]

And do you play the game with WSAD+mouselook? Or just the classic directional key setup?

[Jimmy]

[Kathy]

In E1L1 you can acquire lots of weapons and other stuff. Kristian, get your ass and beat that level. What the hell!

[Radar]

The 3 pig cops in the bar area, the 3 pig cops right before the red key card slot, and the whole strip club filled with pig cops was always really hard when I was a kid. Now I've learned just to throw pipe bombs in those areas.

[MusicallyInspired]

I've always had an rpg by that point and dispensed with the pig cops immediately. Or the pipe bombs if I ran out of rockets.

[Mr. Tibbs]

ROTT/Intereceptor made the news in Denmark. They're planning to open an office in the near future. Congrats guys!

[Micky C]

Not to mention that checkpoint saves make cheap deaths all the more frustrating.

[Malgon]

Sweet, just bought this on GOG!

[X-Vector]

Two things:

1. Not having a manual save system in a nineties style retro FPS is absolutely ludicrous.
Dark Forces was already criticised for using lives rather than saves back in 1995.

2. How can anyone get through Quake and Shadow Warrior, but not Red Light District?
Only boss encounters and a swarm of those pesky drones should give you any trouble in Duke3D.

[Striker]

Kristian Joensen, on 18 July 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

I just don't get how I can complete the entirity of DNF, the entirty of Bioshock Infinite(what a great game) and the entirty of Quake 1 but I can't complete E1L2, how can it be harder for me than entire games?

How the? Do you have a dismembered index finger, and a paralyzed left side from a stroke? I know E1L2 like the back of my hand. Secrets and all. Got it first try, on come get some, pistol start, back when I was 11 years old. No cheating. Classic Keyboard Controls. It's just as easy as E1L1 if you can deal with the pig-cops.

Make use of the secrets in E1L1 to build up your arsenal, getting things like the RPG, Shotgun, and Ripper. Also, get the portable medkit and make use of it. The portable medkit is a godsend, and you'll need it if you take damage. E1L2 is pretty generous as far as health is concerned. Plenty of medkits around, and if you run out of them, you have the toilets and urinals. (Pissing usually heals a fair amount of health, and if you can't piss, you can break the toilets and urinals and drink from the water supply pipe.)

The sewer cap in behind the demolished building wall can be blown off with the RPG or pipe-bombs, there's some useful things in there too such as a Jetpack and more Pipebombs.

The blue key is behind the combination door and up the elevator inside of the Adult Movie store at the beginning. The yellow key is behind the building you destroy by using the blue key. The red key is in the bar where the prostitute is standing. Just open up the cupboard in that area.

[Player Lin]

I don't care whatever reasons needed to use the checkpoint system... I hate the whole shit at all, it always saved my damned game at whatever positions which I don't needed and feel frustrating(sometimes I want to quit the game if I died and last save point just about 5+ minutes ago or before long cutscene)...

In Serious Sam 3, I decided call that stupid (auto-saving) checkpoints go the Mental's hell when they tied it with bonus and in later levels, it just made more frustrations than I thought, I just can't bear them so I just disable the autosave, and save my damn game manually whenever I like, it made I feel so better than it was.

Seriously, called RotT but use checkpoint system only?

[Micky C]

I think we're owed some kind of explanation by the developers. It's funny how they're only around when ROTT's being praised...

Given all the things they have time for like that classic editor thing, there must be some way to incorporate manual saves into the game. There are people out there who don't care about scores and that stuff and just want to enjoy FPS games without their freedom removed.

[OpenMaw]

Micky C, on 19 July 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

I think we're owed some kind of explanation by the developers. It's funny how they're only around when ROTT's being praised...

Given all the things they have time for like that classic editor thing, there must be some way to incorporate manual saves into the game. There are people out there who don't care about scores and that stuff and just want to enjoy FPS games without their freedom removed.

There's no reason from a technical standpoint...

I sent a message to Terry about this on FB, and I hope maybe they'll be willing to change this before release.

[Kathy]

Really strange decision and the silence that followed. If you made a checkpoint system despite the old school vibe you were generating then stand your ground to explain the reasoning behind this. Or are they waiting it to bite them big time in the ass once the game proves to be mediocre?

And I've already got sick from all the enthusiasm. I find it rather strange that all you need is to market the game as anti-modern to generate that kind of praise before release. The [hate mode] forum had for Interceptor was at least amusing.

Having that said, the game actually might be fun for all the good reasons. I'm not preordering shit, though, since I can buy and download it anytime later.

[DaveyDoomsday]

WOAH WOAH WOAH

What is all this about the checkpoint system? It's not your typical UE3 checkpoint system like Bioshock: Infinite where if you die you lose tons of progress. That would suck. There's enough checkpoints in each level that no matter where you die you'll never lose more than a minute or so of progress. We made sure of that. Also, you can play from any checkpoint at any time with any character and it will start you with the same weapons that you had. So it's practically saving. In fact it's as close as we could get to save states without having actual save states, which is simply not something we could accomplish with our limited resources and budget. If you want to get technical about it, I'd let Fred explain that, but this Escapist article sums up pretty well why it's so hard to have save states in modern games unless you have a giant budget like Skyrim:

http://www.escapistm...heckpoint-Saves <-- Seriously, read this.

Personally, I was against the checkpoint idea at first, I hated the thought of it, but given our limited options and after seeing how we implemented it and how it works with our style of gameplay, I think it actually makes more sense than having manual saves. Especially given the arcadey, high scoring style of ROTT. And I stand by the system knowing that it works well and that it was a serious pain in the ass for the guys to have in place. You know Frederik is as old school as it gets, so if we were going to be forced to use a checkpoint system, you know he'd make sure we did it right. Trust in the hair, people.

Meanwhile, if that's the only thing you guys are unhappy with so far in regards to ROTT, then I can deal with that.

Also, our checkpoints have funny names... I wrote them myself... SO LOVE THEM.

[Lunick]

DaveyDoomsday, on 19 July 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

Also, our checkpoints have funny names... I wrote them myself... SO LOVE THEM.

Please tell me they are not as bad as the Multiplayer level names...

[DaveyDoomsday]

Lunick, on 19 July 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

Please tell me they are not as bad as the Multiplayer level names...

We have one checkpoint named 'Harrison Fjord'. Yeah. Oh, and if you're referring to 'Drop the Base' - I love that level

However most of our checkpoints are named after Classic ROTT '95 levels so it's a nice homage.

Our secret levels are named after Kurt Russell movies... that was Leon's idea.

[Lunick]

DaveyDoomsday, on 19 July 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

We have one checkpoint named 'Harrison Fjord'. Yeah. Oh, and if you're referring to 'Drop the Base' - I love that level

Yes, that was the level I was thinking of so I guess you know that it is bad

[DaveyDoomsday]

Lunick, on 19 July 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

Yes, that was the level I was thinking of so I guess you know that it is bad

When I first saw the name...

http://images5.fanpo...677_469_650.jpg