[Minigunner]

This mapset is great! I can't really describe it in a paragraph, so here's a list:
Pros:
- Most of the levels are directly interconnected, similar to many of the Duke3D levels.
- Several levels have quite the similarity to the original levels (e.g. the first level basically being Hollywood Holocaust with a rearranged outdoor area and different indoor areas).
- Abundance of pistol, shotgun, and chaingun ammo. (Too much of said ammo IMO, but that's not really a con).
- Availability of certain weapons depending on how far you are in the set (e.g. you don't just get the Devastator right off the bat, like in Raw Meat; it appears in later maps).
- Lots of enemies, which is made easier with having so many bullets/shells at your disposal.
- Explosions. Plenty of explosions.
Cons:
- I didn't like the progression between the first and second level; it seemed as if the world around the exit area just changed (and no, not in the usual sense of the area you left behind being destroyed).
- I had trouble spotting a couple wall-cracks that I needed to blow up, notably in the third level. Perhaps turning the opacity on the crack up a bit may be better.
- I think the subway should have two cars, each going an the inner/outer side in the same direction.
- So many unusable doors. I can understand why many of them can't be opened (overlapping layouts could keep the doors or the rooms they lead to from working properly), I think plenty of them could lead to extra rooms without much trouble.

That's all the thoughts I currently have, but to sum it up (again), I like this.

[MetHy]

Minigunner, on 27 June 2013 - 11:27 PM, said:

This mapset is great! I can't really describe it in a paragraph, so here's a list:

Thanks for your comment, glad you liked it, I'll try to clarify a few things

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Most of the levels are directly interconnected, similar to many of the Duke3D levels.

Yes that was an important point for us, it's part of what made Duke3D unique and "realistic" compared to other FPS games of the time, which is why we made sure to build levels each one after the others.,

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- Several levels have quite the similarity to the original levels (e.g. the first level basically being Hollywood Holocaust with a rearranged outdoor area and different indoor areas).

Basically I wanted it to be a mix of E1L1 and E1L2 (hence the bookshop leading to an elevator to an apartment)

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- Abundance of pistol, shotgun, and chaingun ammo. (Too much of said ammo IMO, but that's not really a con).

In terms of weapon/ammo/health ratio the episode was designed just like the original game, that is to say that each level can be played independantly on Come Get Some with a pistol start (some harder then others though); so that no saving/loading is required. If you die you can start over the map with just pistol. Not dying and being able to survive and save all the ammo is actually a reward for good players.
Of course that's not something many players do this day (they usually save a lot) but it was still important to do it, the second reason being that if you want to DNSCOTTY to replay any map, you can.

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- I didn't like the progression between the first and second level; it seemed as if the world around the exit area just changed (and no, not in the usual sense of the area you left behind being destroyed).

That's very well spotted! When I made the first map, I had E1L1 in mind for the end of the street. In E1L1 the road just "stops" with a wall because that's probably how the developers thought best to keep it simple since you can't go go on forever like IRL; but imo, if Hollywood Holocaust was IRL, obviously there would be no wall and the road would just go on. So that's why I had in mind when I made that wall you can see here (except that I ripped off FBSP003 with the sandbags to try and give realism and a reason for the wall itself to be there, for protection)



Then MRCK made the 2nd map on the spot after I finished this one and we didn't actually talk about how 2 maps were supposed to be connected so he didn't the same vision of the road as me. He didn't think the road would have continued (which is totally fine, just a different view on things). Then, I decided to extend the pavement to try and make people (and myself) forget that I had in mind that the road would have continued : if you check the screenshot above, the pavement at first was only on the left and right, but I extended it where the crosshair is (behind the duke sprite) to pretend the road normally stops there and the wall is a "normal" dead-end. Apparently that wasn't enough though!

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- I had trouble spotting a couple wall-cracks that I needed to blow up, notably in the third level. Perhaps turning the opacity on the crack up a bit may be better.

Well I don't think that's an issue. We actually turned up brightness on cracks in the last touches we did before release plus they are always in a dead end or in a small area.

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- So many unusable doors. I can understand why many of them can't be opened (overlapping layouts could keep the doors or the rooms they lead to from working properly), I think plenty of them could lead to extra rooms without much trouble.

I think that's one of the parts were we took some liberty from the original game. In the original game all doors are there to be opened, they don't put doors just for decorations. As a consequence though it looks very unrealistic with plenty of buildings you can't go in which have hundreds of windows but not a single door; hence why mappers in Duke maps (and not just us, but in general) like to put fake doors, just for decorations and realism; but it's something that often comes back as being confusing gameplay-wise for players (Nansci ALWAYS complains about this).
I think the reason why players always complain about decoration doors but mappers keep making them is because, when you're a mapper and you're playing other mappers maps, most of the times you can spot right away which doors can be opened or not, it just "makes sense" from a mapper points of view, so we don't realize it can be a problem. And also, plenty of mappers care about the esthetic first and gameplay comes second, they often don't build a map with both aspects in mind at the same time (which they should imo)

[Mikko]

I never really saw locked doors as a problem, neither as a mapper nor as a player (probably due to what Met said about mappers being able to spot permalocked doors immediately). They're just decorations.

[Minigunner]

Ah okay. I'm just kinda used to the fact that you can open almost any door in Duke3D (save for a few justified exceptions). I'm fine with locked doors, it's just that there's so many of them.

[Gambini]

Mikko_Sandt, on 25 June 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

A shameless bump but I uploaded a video for the mod: http://www.moddb.com...n-mayhem/videos

Good trailer and cool music. I was expecting all the time the Airwolf tune to start, the way it starts is almost identical to that theme. Although In my opinion you should have used the new r_usetileshades command, then the maps would have looked much better.

[Mikko]

An article on some Brazilian site: http://www.superdown...politan-mayhem/

Even visible on the main page: http://www.superdownloads.com.br/

Weird; maybe a DNF spillover effect? The download link points to the ModDB page.

Gambini, on 28 June 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

Although In my opinion you should have used the new r_usetileshades command, then the maps would have looked much better.

Not true.

[Gambini]

Mikko_Sandt, on 29 June 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

Not true.

Elaborate. That thing makes polymost look like software, minus its ugly aspects. Hasn´t been this mod done mostly for software?

[Mikko]

I don't want it to look like Software. I've been using Polymost for 10 years now. Moreover, usetileshades makes the game slightly darker, which throws off visibility in the maps.

[Gambini]

Mikko_Sandt, on 29 June 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

I don't want it to look like Software. I've been using Polymost for 10 years now.

Yeah and it´s time to move on!

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Moreover, usetileshades makes the game slightly darker, which throws off visibility in the maps.

But all maps there, minus yours, were done for software! in fact your maps look much better in software too!

[Mikko]

Gambini, on 29 June 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

Yeah and it´s time to move on!

You mean move backwards?

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But all maps there, minus yours, were done for software! in fact your maps look much better in software too!

But the "cancer mode" is not Software mode.

[Gambini]

Cancer mode is even more accurate but it´s for polymer. usetileshades is for polymost and only differs because it uses the same visibility than polymost.

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You mean move backwards?

Moving backwards in the same fashion of going back to 8bits after using the HRP.

[Gambini]

Let it be known that Mikko Sandt chickened out and ran away.

[Mike Norvak]

What's that all about?

Cancer mode and "usetileshades" ? I've been away for a while...

[Gambini]

If you´re running polymost type r_usetileshades 1 and see it for yourself. Polymer has an even more accurate version that´s called cancermode. I think you activate it by typing cancermode 1 when running Polymer.

[Micky C]

Gambini, on 29 June 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

If you´re running polymost type r_usetileshades 1 and see it for yourself. Polymer has an even more accurate version that´s called cancermode. I think you activate it by typing cancermode 1 when running Polymer.

I thought cancermode was enabled by default? Unless they changed that since it was introduced.

[MetHy]

Mikko_Sandt, on 29 June 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

An article on some Brazilian site: http://www.superdown...tan-mayhem/Even visible on the main page: http://www.superdown...s.com.br/Weird; maybe a DNF spillover effect? The download link points to the ModDB page.Not true.

Cool!

Why is "cancermode" called "CANCERmode"? Did it kill the eduke32 devs to do it?
Did Duke smoke too much cigarettes from the vending machines in DNF?

[Helixhorned]

Since there's some confusion in this thread regarding the Polymodes' extensions to make them appear closer to classic, here's some info.

First, they're only conceptually related -- their implementation is completely different. Polymer's ART mapping feature (which was just briefly called "cancer mode" by Plagman for reasons only he knows) generates OpenGL objects for the relevant classic data such as base palettes and shade tables, and accesses them in fragment shaders. TerminX's "use tile shades" for Polymost generates one GL texture for every tile number x used shade combination.

The console variables controlling the features are r_pr_artmapping and r_usetileshades, respectively. Both are now enabled by default, for Polymer since r3737 and for Polymost since r3899. Toggling r_pr_artmapping may need a restartvid afterwards.

As far as the accurateness of reproducing classic is concerned, Polymer's ART mapping is near perfect at default visibility, as far as I can see. There have been reports about it being wrong with other than default global (as opposed to per-sector) visibilities, such as when firing a gun. Also, ART mapping exhibits somewhat of an "iridescence" effect which is likely due to how the 256 colors are interpolated to yield true color.

Polymost's "use tile shades" does not represent dark areas accurately, which can be easily seen in the E1L1 restroom -- the alcove with the medkit and the ventilation duct leading to the upper area are both almost pitch-black. For this reason, it should not be used when building maps for now. Where applicable, it's always best to take classic mode itself as reference anyway IMO.

[Mikko]

Gambini, on 29 June 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

Cancer mode is even more accurate but it´s for polymer. usetileshades is for polymost and only differs because it uses the same visibility than polymost.

Okay, I thought "cancer mode" was the usetileshades mode. I was talking about the usetileshades mode as were you so we were both talking about the same thing, I just referred to it with the wrong term.

And as Helixhorned mentioned, it makes the maps darker, as I claimed earlier. It should not be the default mode because it screws up lighting in tons of maps built in the past ten years. This includes Metropolitan Mayhem, which has several of these areas that appear nearly pitch black with usetileshades.

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Moving backwards in the same fashion of going back to 8bits after using the HRP.

Apples & Oranges.

[Gambini]

Mikko_Sandt, on 30 June 2013 - 03:34 AM, said:

And as Helixhorned mentioned, it makes the maps darker, as I claimed earlier. It should not be the default mode because it screws up lighting in tons of maps built in the past ten years. This includes Metropolitan Mayhem, which has several of these areas that appear nearly pitch black with usetileshades.

Lighting has been always fucked up because there were way too many combinations along all these years. Polymost has never been an accurate replacement for software and with the time it received many changes that made it look closer or farther from its original objective. In all those years that Polymost received updates and modifications many maps were built. No one of these thousand maps retain their original look in polymost, while as software has been there all the time being the unaltered reference point. Now is it finally possible to make maps look like the original game in the polymodes. So, the counter argument of small lighting differences should be ruled out since it is much better this way than the other thousand ways polymost used to look.

Just a brief highlight of polymost changes along the years (years are estimative):

2002: Polymost has no visibility at all.
2004?: A black fog system is implemented to mimick visibilty, it is nowhere as hell similar to 8bits visiblity.
2009?: With Polymer introduction r_shadescale values are drastically modified by default, several times altering the shading of all maps.
2011?: Helixhorned introduces r_usenewshading and makes it default. In the hunt of a visibilty method that approach the look of software mode.
2012?: r_usenewshading 2 which is now much more accurate replaces the previous one.
2013: cancermode and usetileshades are introduced and become default.

For 11 years the lighting in polymost has changed so many times and no map built in the process retains its original look unless it has been done with software mdoe in mind. Now there´s finally a mode that makes all renderers look as similar as humanly possible, and I don´t see an intelligent reason of why not to use it. Arguing against it is like arguin about the benefits of modern medicine.

[Hank]

deleted - lol I've got the message

[Gambini]

A discussion about the classic look of the game is justified in this thread because it started after this mod´s trailer impressions. And the fact this mod is a homage to classic gaming. You´re making no sense asking that in this thread, because it´s not related to either two things.

[Tea Monster]

On the playability side for a moment, can you put switches to control elevators from the bottom?

There are two elevators at the end of levels that lead up to the nuke button. On one occasion, one of us went up the elevator and got toasted by the Enforcer at the top. When he respawned and came back to the elevator, we could open the elevator doors, but there was no way to call the elevator back down to us. On the second one, we made sure to send the elevator back down when we got to the top, but a button on each end would be great.

That niggle aside, we loved it. It does bring back the whole Episode 1 feel.

[MetHy]

We didn't think about that indeed... nice to see you're somebody's playing it co-op

[Tea Monster]

Hell yeah, it's great. I've had five people on my lan playing at once. The trouble is finding decent maps for coop, so this pack is especially appreciated. Thanks to all involved.

[Mikko]

Gambini, on 30 June 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

So, the counter argument of small lighting differences should be ruled out since it is much better this way than the other thousand ways polymost used to look.
...
Now there´s finally a mode that makes all renderers look as similar as humanly possible, and I don´t see an intelligent reason of why not to use it. Arguing against it is like arguin about the benefits of modern medicine

I simply don't agree that it looks better. For example, the dam map in DNF looks pretty bad with those reddish canyon wall textures everywhere. Easy for you to say it looks better because you've been playing in Software mode since the beginning. I haven't. I have spent more years playing in the Polymost than Software mode.

[ck3D]

nice to see new comments on this so long after its release, glad to see people still play and enjoy it.

[necroslut]

I think this is probably the best episode/mod ever released for Duke 3D.

[Blues22475]

Just leaving a post to chime in...

This is a great mod. I had a couple of gripes, but I can't seem to remember what it was. I haven't finished all the boss maps yet, but I have to say my favorite so far was the stadium. I never seen so much alien scum crammed together in one place. It was hard, but at the same time there was enough equipment to finish it. Was playing on "Come Get Some".

[NightFright]

I noticed two strange things (in EDuke32 r3942, Polymer 32bit):

1) E5L2 has some serious rendering issues with floor-oriented sprites. The starting area is bug-free, but as soon as you enter the streets, the glitches kick in. No other map of the pack has this issue, so it's something unique to this map which is either not done correctly or EDuke32 does not like it. Screenshots below.
2) E5L14 seems to have problems with swinging doors not opening, or I didn't figure out how to open them, at least (sectors 81/82 and 347).

[Forge]

seen that before while building cbp8
the instance i experienced had to do with sprites that give off their own "glow" being too close together
(my encounter with this issue involved two atomic health next to each other; one was fine-the other had a black square around it & several other sprites in the area also had black squares around them-trees and such- separating the atomics a certain distance apart fixed the problem)