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[RELEASE] Metropolitan Mayhem - a 15-map episode!

User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#121

I think an 88 is a little low. Seems you let the things you didn't like carry more weight than what you did like (there were more levels you felt were either equal to or surpassing original quality, than those you felt pedestrian and amateurish).

View PostNancsi, on 28 March 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

The first two levels are worse than the original levels though, especially the first map which seems mostly amateurish at times.


2 disliked levels

View PostNancsi, on 28 March 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

I would say levels 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and the boss level I played are the ones that match the original 3DR mapping style at best, except for the short length in some of them (especially level 3 and 6). Level 8, 9, 10 (despite the bug) and the secret level clearly surpasses original quality.


5 levels equaling original quality (+1 more if you want to include the boss map)
3 levels surpassing original quality (+1 more if you want to include the secret level)

8 (10) liked vs. 2 disliked = 88%

ouch.

This post has been edited by Forge: 29 March 2012 - 04:31 AM

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#122

View PostForge, on 29 March 2012 - 04:24 AM, said:

I think an 88 is a little low. Seems you let the things you didn't like carry more weight than what you did like (there were more levels you felt were either equal to or surpassing original quality, than those you felt pedestrian and amateurish).



2 disliked levels



5 levels equaling original quality (+1 more if you want to include the boss map)
3 levels surpassing original quality (+1 more if you want to include the secret level)

8 (10) liked vs. 2 disliked = 88%

ouch.


10/12=83,33%

So I was generous with the score.
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#123

View PostMikko_Sandt, on 29 March 2012 - 04:12 AM, said:

I think 88 is the kind of a score one would arrive at if you were to rate the maps individually and then take the average. This is pretty obvious from you praising MRCK's maps relative to all the other levels that were intentionally shorter and less detailed. It actually seems that those who have rated (and I don't necessarily mean a numerical rating) the episode as an episode think otherwise. See, for example, Fakir's post on the subject, particularly his praise toward the first map that you seemed to dislike.


I didn't really notice until now who created these maps, but yes, MRCK's stuff are my favourite in this bunch. I already liked the infamous pleaser, and generally liked his style as soon as he toned down the over-detailing. Same goes for Merline, his talent is obvious, sometimes he goes too far with sprites, palettes etc, but his levels are excellent nevertheless. The only MRCK level btw. I don't care for is the 2nd level with the french title. That seems rather dull and uninspired. But judging the posts here this seems to be intentional.

Your levels are good as well, a lot cleaner in design, but they are too short even for an episode.

Quote

You mean the yellow lock zone? There's a ledge right next to it that you can use, accessible via the destroyed building.


Maybe I was doing something wrong, but that jump didn't work for me... EDIT: found the problem, I wanted to reach those ledges from the middle building. poor me.

This post has been edited by Nancsi: 29 March 2012 - 10:04 AM

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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#124

Just shows that Mikko was right and you rated the maps individually and averaged the score instead of taking the episode as a whole, and also failed to take into consideration that almost all of the maps were individually built in one day. Just my opinion, but your standards are too strict and too high for projects that don't cater to your specific likes (they're too short - even if they were built in only one day) and taste (they must be classic 3DR styled). But taking these standards you have set in stone, 88 probably is generous.

This post has been edited by Forge: 29 March 2012 - 11:54 AM

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User is offline   MetHy 

#125

It's funny because MRCK's maps are pretty much like Nancsi Pleaser

But let's not "wag the knife inside the wound" like we say in France
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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#126

I was trying not to bring that up
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User is offline   MetHy 

#127

I know, I just felt like being asshole today
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User is offline   Danukem 

  • Duke Plus Developer

#128

View PostForge, on 29 March 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

and also failed to take into consideration that almost all of the maps were individually built in one day.


So you are saying that the episode should get a higher score because the maps were built in one day? To me that makes no sense at all. How long it took to build the maps is irrelevant, what matters is the end product. It's one thing to say (pretty much as I have) "the maps were built in one day so it's not surprising that they are not very ambitious", but it's another thing to actually give the episode a higher score on that account. That would be like giving a student extra points on on a term paper because he took less time to work on it than other students.
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User is offline   Mikko 

  • Honored Donor

#129

Criticize our episode and I'll fuck you up, I swear, I'll burn your fucking house down :)
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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#130

View PostTrooper Dan, on 29 March 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

So you are saying that the episode should get a higher score because the maps were built in one day? To me that makes no sense at all. How long it took to build the maps is irrelevant, what matters is the end product. It's one thing to say (pretty much as I have) "the maps were built in one day so it's not surprising that they are not very ambitious", but it's another thing to actually give the episode a higher score on that account. That would be like giving a student extra points on on a term paper because he took less time to work on it than other students.


View PostForge, on 29 March 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

...(they're too short - even if they were built in only one day)....


Way to pull it out of context. You get extra points AND a gold star
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User is offline   Gambini 

#131

Here´s a little problem and it´s that Nancsi is basing his rating on a more realistic scale (thing that almost nobody does here). 88 is very very good, even scratching excelent in any other way the 100/100 rating system is used.

You open a magazine and read a review of a car that got 88/100. That must be a very good car people will buy a lot and soon it will populate the streets.

You check a site and see a review of a game that got 88/100. That´s just about the rating almost all great games get, except by legends like Half Life, Duke Nukem and Quake which will go over 90.

You get an 88/100 in a math test at school. You´re one of the best students and your parents are likely going to buy you a lollipop that day.

Instead, in this community if you rate a map below 90 you´re saying it´s not so good, almost mediocre. So most worth releases are piled between 90 and 99 and there´s no way a map can be rated below 70 (never seen any at least). I know it´s too late to change that, but I wouldn´t be offended if somebody like Nancsi comes and says it´s an 88 points episode, because that´s a praise in my book.
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User is offline   Danukem 

  • Duke Plus Developer

#132

View PostForge, on 29 March 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

Way to pull it out of context. You get extra points AND a gold star


Forge, I honestly don't see how the additional context affects the point I made. Let's just agree to disagree and let it drop.
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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#133

View PostGambini, on 29 March 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

Here´s a little problem and it´s that Nancsi is basing his rating on a more realistic scale (thing that almost nobody does here). 88 is very very good, even scratching excelent in any other way the 100/100 rating system is used.
...etc...


This coming from the guy who threw a fit about how I rated one his maps below 80
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#134

I thought maps 3 and 4 were a bit too short, whereas map 2 was longer. I would of put map 2 as map 4. Just an opinion. Map 1 was very short but as a first map of the episode, it was ok length. Even had a few secrets.

Of course map 8 was my favorite as I have stated.

One thing I would of liked to see which none of the maps had, was some focused routing involving ledges. Where a player can spend most of his time on ledges, jumping to another ledge, using roids to jump to a far away ledge, etc...kinda living on ledges, like the level LA Rumble.

This post has been edited by Blue Lightning: 29 March 2012 - 06:37 PM

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User is offline   Gambini 

#135

View PostForge, on 29 March 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

This coming from the guy who threw a fit about how I rated one his maps below 80


haha I knew you´d have grudge because of that. But I asked for an explanation because you rate maps using Duke standards and yet it got 7something which reads as the map is crap.

This post has been edited by Gambini: 29 March 2012 - 06:52 PM

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#136

View PostMetHy, on 29 March 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

It's funny because MRCK's maps are pretty much like Nancsi Pleaser

But let's not "wag the knife inside the wound" like we say in France


That map was pretty much excellent, except for it's original title.

This post has been edited by Nancsi: 29 March 2012 - 06:52 PM

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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#137

View PostGambini, on 29 March 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

haha I knew you´d have grudge because of that. But I asked for an explanation because you rate maps using Duke standards and yet it got 7something which reads as the map is crap.


i use my standards and they've always been the same

not my fault you focused on a few areas I mentioned and got your panties in a bunch over it because you couldn't convince me to change my opinion

even though the two areas you were uptight about received a 7 out of 10 and an 8 out of 10

Texturing/Lighting-Shading: 7/10
Sprite Work/Detailing:8/10
Ambiance: 7/10
Architecture/Design: 17/20
Layout: 17/20
Gameplay/Difficulty: 23/30
Overall: 79/100

It's okay for Nancsi to be strict with his assessment of this release
It's not okay to be strict with one of your releases
Seems strict standards are absolutely fine by you, as long as they don't apply to you
We call that a hypocrite where I'm from

This post has been edited by Forge: 29 March 2012 - 08:47 PM

-2

User is offline   Inspector Lagomorf 

  • Glory To Motherland!

#138

Good Lord, we're all pissing ourselves on ratings, of all things? Every Duke Nukem map is an experience, good or bad. All this competition to create the best map evar!!!1!! is rather juvenile.
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User is offline   Micky C 

  • Honored Donor

#139

idk, a month or so back there were some noobs creating 3 or 4 hour piece of crap maps that were short, buggy, incredibly under-detailed and oversized, with horrible gameplay, layout and flow, a complete lack of shading, and a filesize smaller than a hydrogen atom's nucleus. While you could call those maps an 'experience' they certainly weren't playable.

And I can't believe this episode still doesn't have a news item!? Before, everyone was complaining that we don't get enough news, and suddenly a fantastic episode like this comes out and it doesn't even get a mention on the front page! I swear I submitted an article ages back, and unless there was some technical glitch and it got deleted, it, or some article someone else writes should really be put up. Especially since the latest news item is about some expired special deal on gog.
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User is offline   Yatta 

  • Pizza Lawyer

  #140

View PostMicky C, on 29 March 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:


And I can't believe this episode still doesn't have a news item!? Before, everyone was complaining that we don't get enough news, and suddenly a fantastic episode like this comes out and it doesn't even get a mention on the front page! I swear I submitted an article ages back, and unless there was some technical glitch and it got deleted, it, or some article someone else writes should really be put up. Especially since the latest news item is about some expired special deal on gog.


Hi Mickiloov,

I haven't forgotten about your news submission and still have it marked as unread in my e-mail so I'd know it needs to be posted. We're a little slow with special news items because we're short of manpower, but Mr. Green is working on it. (I've been a bit miserable lately in law school.)

The GoG post is a simple 1 minute post because it's just an image, hence the fact that it was posted earlier.
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User is offline   Gambini 

#141

View PostForge, on 29 March 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

i use my standards and they've always been the same

not my fault you focused on a few areas I mentioned and got your panties in a bunch over it because you couldn't convince me to change my opinion

even though the two areas you were uptight about received a 7 out of 10 and an 8 out of 10

Texturing/Lighting-Shading: 7/10
Sprite Work/Detailing:8/10
Ambiance: 7/10
Architecture/Design: 17/20
Layout: 17/20
Gameplay/Difficulty: 23/30
Overall: 79/100

It's okay for Nancsi to be strict with his assessment of this release
It's not okay to be strict with one of your releases
Seems strict standards are absolutely fine by you, as long as they don't apply to you
We call that a hypocrite where I'm from


This again becomes personal and completely offtopic (not to mention you always edit your posts to confuse people). and you call me hypocrite? lol

Take your shit somewhere else and we´ll have a proper discussion. But please stop pushing me to derail this thread. The only thing I said is that Nancsi was being nice saying he would give the episode 88 points. He´s not doing a review for a site, he´s saying what he thinks.
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User is offline   Micky C 

  • Honored Donor

#142

View PostYatta, on 29 March 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

Hi Mickiloov,

I haven't forgotten about your news submission and still have it marked as unread in my e-mail so I'd know it needs to be posted. We're a little slow with special news items because we're short of manpower, but Mr. Green is working on it. (I've been a bit miserable lately in law school.)

The GoG post is a simple 1 minute post because it's just an image, hence the fact that it was posted earlier.


Thanks Yatta, it's good to know things are still happening behind the scenes, and sorry to hear about law school. It also looks like Green just posted a gearbox related article so we probably won't see one for this episode for a while yet http://forums.duke4.net/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif
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User is offline   ck3D 

#143

i don't really get some of your reactions people, I actually appreciated reading nancsi's feedback, thought it was constructive and 88% was a fair rating. Like Gambini said, it's pretty much the equivalent of getting a 9/10 or a 18/20 at a school test, I'm psyched he liked the episode that much. Of course he is bound to have personal tastes about map length and design, whether or not the maps were built in just one day, he is an individual and entitled to his own opinions, it's just user maps for a game, let's not get our panties in a bunch for such minor disagreements

This post has been edited by ck3D: 30 March 2012 - 02:46 AM

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User is offline   Mikko 

  • Honored Donor

#144

View Postck3D, on 30 March 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

i don't really get some of your reactions people, I actually appreciated reading nancsi's feedback, thought it was constructive and 88% was a fair rating. Like Gambini said, it's pretty much the equivalent of getting a 9/10 or a 18/20 at a school test, I'm psyched he liked the episode that much. Of course he is bound to have personal tastes about map length and design, whether or not the maps were built in just one day, he is an individual and entitled to his own opinions, it's just user maps for a game, let's not get our panties in a bunch for such minor disagreements


Yeah I agree and I don't have a problem with the rating, he's just using a different scale. Moreover, Nancsi has always taken bold positions with respect to some maps.

But then the suggestion is to avoid giving numerical ratings in the first place if they only lead to essentially fruitless discussions about scales. Scales are subjective and as such there's no "wrong" scale. But this subjectivity also means that scales are not comparable (so that Nancsi's 88 is not the same as MSDN's) even though people have a tendency to automatically compare ratings rather than the opinions behind them.

This post has been edited by Mikko_Sandt: 30 March 2012 - 03:26 AM

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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#145

I said an 88 from Nancsi was generous from his strict standards quite some time ago, but some slug likes to come into threads, stir up the pot, then back-out trying to act all innocent

the only major conflict I had with Nancsi's assessment was his complaint about the length of the maps. I felt he didn't take into consideration that one of this project's core design restrictions was each map had to be built in a 24 hour period, which of course is going to result in shorter than usual user made maps. But other than a couple of the maps included in this release I didn't think they were that much shorter than E1L1 or E1L2.

This post has been edited by Forge: 30 March 2012 - 09:11 AM

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#146

Maybe the number 88 has too low reputation in the ultra lefties' minds. :)
(j/k)
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User is offline   Mike Norvak 

  • Music Producer

#147

The only thing I wanted to know is what score would you give to the original maps with that same scale, so I can understand you give an 88. Anyway reading the comments now I understand what do you mean with an 88, and I think is okay, is just that I'm so accustomed to undervalue at maps with ratings lower than 90, yeah that's a big mistake.
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#148

I cant even play map 6 cause of fatal bugs. I dont think it was beta tested.

Map 12, now that is a clever map, and a lot of fun. But the big boss is on a platform that has nothing holding it up. I dont get it.
Map 13 is good...but I would of liked to see raindrops.
Map 9 is quite good.

This post has been edited by Blue Lightning: 30 March 2012 - 05:54 PM

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User is offline   Danukem 

  • Duke Plus Developer

#149

View PostBlue Lightning, on 30 March 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

I cant even play map 6 cause of fatal bugs. I dont think it was beta tested.


I downvoted this, because after six pages of this thread and all of the people talking about how they have played through the entire episode (plus references to lots of beta testing), it's an insulting thing to say.
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#150

View PostTrooper Dan, on 30 March 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

I downvoted this, because after six pages of this thread and all of the people talking about how they have played through the entire episode (plus references to lots of beta testing), it's an insulting thing to say.

mabye it's my rig, who knows,

This post has been edited by Blue Lightning: 30 March 2012 - 06:02 PM

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