[MetHy]

Helixhorned, on 05 March 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

- however, I'm an outspoken opponent of invisible walls, they distract from the illusion of realism. For example, instead of making the wall blocked in front of the ravine (caused by a helicopter crash?), I would have made a one-way blocking wall on the other side, where you're not supposed to go at the beginning. This way, a player would fall into certain death when attempting to cross it, but that's preferable to being pampered.

I'd rather make it entirely blocked than tricking the player into thinking he has to jump there when it would be physically possible for Duke, just so he dies to his death at the very beginning of the map.

Of course another solution would have been to block the road another way or to make the hole bigger, but I couldn't think of a better way to block this while making it look good, and making the hole bigger would have ruined some the visuals of the street.

So it's still the best solution imo

[Blue Lightning]

Yeah, that's a tough one. I just went back to take a look at the crater. Your right, if you put up a tall fence it reduces the view of the other sides of the crater.

The thing is there is a small strip of road that goes around the crater...but it is just big enough for duke to crawl on. Perhaps if the crater was slightly extended all the way to the outer wall of the buildings with no strip of road at all? Then the player couldnt get around the hole and would fall and die. Just a thought...

[MetHy]

I'm not going to change anything in this map though.

Btw you should change your nickname to the "Invisible Man"

[Micky C]

The original Duke levels had invisible walls as well. They're not very common and they're mostly for the jetpack's sake, but they're there.

[ck3D]

Blue Lightning, on 06 March 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

Yeah, that's a tough one. I just went back to take a look at the crater. Your right, if you put up a tall fence it reduces the view of the other sides of the crater.

The thing is there is a small strip of road that goes around the crater...but it is just big enough for duke to crawl on. Perhaps if the crater was slightly extended all the way to the outer wall of the buildings with no strip of road at all? Then the player couldnt get around the hole and would fall and die. Just a thought...

have you ever released a map ? just curious, i don't get on this forum much, i see you post criticism all the time and i'm just curious as to whether or not you have ever released something. I'm thinking of a possible map or two but i might be thinking of the wrong person

[Forge]

ck3D, on 07 March 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

have you ever released a map ? just curious, i don't get on this forum much, i see you post criticism all the time and i'm just curious as to whether or not you have ever released something. I'm thinking of a possible map or two but i might be thinking of the wrong person

ouch! just got a flashback from when i used to review maps before I had any releases.

imo the crater is fine the way it is. unblocking it and making it bigger to keep players from 'roid-strafe jumping it would ruin the aesthetics. putting a fence or road barriers around it would ruin the aesthetics. having a player die right away in a map would frustrate some people.

having a few people note that a blocking wall makes no sense is an unfortunate collateral casualty when trying to make something for people to enjoy. in the end it all falls on the expression,"you can't please everyone."

[ck3D]

Forge, on 07 March 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

ouch! just got a flashback from when i used to review maps before I had any releases.

it was a honest question though. criticism is good but it's also nice to know the standpoint of the person who emits it, whether it's purely from a player, purely from a mapper or from someone with experience in both playing and mapping. i usually find it more interesting when criticism comes from someone who plays duke more than they map for it, because mappers are often caught up in their knowledge of technicalities and how stuff works 'behind the scenes' and dismiss the actual gaming experience a bit. strict players can make some unfair remarks sometimes (when their bad experiences have more to do with limits of the game itself that they are not aware of, than with the actual mapping), but when you look past this and focus on the sincerity of their experience, as a mapper you often have a lot to learn.

about blue lighting, turned out that i had him mixed up with that nerdkoopa dude who released ethanol fever a few months back, but my question still stands, out of curiosity

[Forge]

ck3D, on 08 March 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

it was a honest question though. criticism is good but it's also nice to know the standpoint of the person who emits it, whether it's purely from a player, purely from a mapper or from someone with experience in both playing and mapping.

Of course at the time I was a player for around 10 years with no build experience. The split was obviously one side saying with that much face time playing I can tell what does and doesn't work in a map. The other side said I did not have enough technical knowledge about the mechanics of the game to determine what it takes to make a playable environment.

At some level they were both right, but I digress.

This Blue Lightning person seems to have a thing about invisible walls. Maybe he doesn't understand why they're used. Invisible barriers are usually there for the aesthetics and to give the environment depth.

[Helixhorned]

Forge, on 08 March 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

This Blue Lightning person seems to have a thing about invisible walls. Maybe he doesn't understand why they're used. Invisible barriers are usually there for the aesthetics and to give the environment depth.

Ahem, excuse me? I can't empathize with this at all. Invisible walls should be used as a last resort when there isn't a more elegant solution to the "world can't be infinite" problem. To come back to Sin Center, the edge of the crater could have a "police line, do not cross" ribbon going along it which would tell the player that going past it is probably not very wise. The other side could then be elevated such that jumping there is impossible without cheating. Not implying that MetHy should change anything, it's his creative effort after all.

[MetHy]

Yeah, that's true. I could also have made it slightly bigger as well. But like said I have no intention is changing anything in this map, I'll just learn from the experience and the feedback for an hypothetical future release.

[Mikko]

This is just another relatively minor thing that's getting blown out of proportion. Of course, MetHunter should have planned ahead from the beginning so that there would have been no need for invisible walls to begin with but once he built those buildings, he made it so that the cost of fixing the pit the right way would've been too costly in terms of effort.

[Blue Lightning]

Forge, on 08 March 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

This Blue Lightning person seems to have a thing about invisible walls. Maybe he doesn't understand why they're used. Invisible barriers are usually there for the aesthetics and to give the environment depth.

Nah. This Blue Lightning person was just pointing out some weak spots, as well as the strong spots. When praising a map I notice nobody minds, but when pointing out something that might be improved, some dont want to hear it, although I was actually proposing an idea.

So I guess only speak when it is all positive? Ok, I see how that works. (man I forgot what it was like here)

[Helixhorned]

?

Have you read ck3d's post 5 posts before yours?

[Blue Lightning]

Helixhorned, on 08 March 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

?

Have you read ck3d's post 5 posts before yours?

I missed that particular post, thanks for pointing it out.


Post edited

[ck3D]

yet my question is still left unanswered. it's no big deal, I would just like to know more about your gaming / mapping background, so I can appreciate the criticism you post in a more accurate maneer which would only make it more helpful to the mappers. I have yet to notice anyone complaining about the actual content of your feedback.

[Inspector Lagomorf]

As a mapper (albeit with only one released map) and a long-time player of retro first-person shooters, here's my suggestion:

Rather than throw up an invisible wall, do as somebody else suggested and throw up a police line that indicates that the player probably shouldn't try to make that jump. "But wait," you point out, "someone could just use steroids and jump the gap." Well, I don't think that this is necessarily an issue. There's a very distinct set path in which the level is meant to be cleared. This applies to all of the levels in Duke Nukem 3D, even though there are some shortcuts (some very obvious ones) that allow you to skip a lot of the levels. I need not point out that Hollywood Holocaust has a route that allows you to cut through 1/4th of the level with a jetpack (and speedrunners have found an even faster way to clear the level in 11 seconds!). Any player in their right mind would clear the level the way it's meant to be cleared, and 99% of them will not try to clear the gap on their first playthrough, unless they're intentionally trying to speedrun it blind. Invisible walls, in my opinion, delve into that territory of linearity which I despise, even in situations where it is arguably used well.

A good level doesn't try to railroad the player. A good level gives players the impression that they have relative control over their surroundings.

I know for a fact that modern FPS developers catch so much hell for using invisible walls and "combat zones" in their games. I hold fan mappers to the same standards as them.

Disclosure: I love this map regardless of the invisible wall.

[Danukem]

The tragedy here is that in the time we have spent talking about invisible walls, those guys could have made a wonderful new map. But instead they are sitting around and smoking pot or something. Note that I said "or something", so no matter what they are actually doing, the statement is true.

[Blue Lightning]

ck3D, on 09 March 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

yet my question is still left unanswered. it's no big deal, I would just like to know more about your gaming / mapping background, so I can appreciate the criticism you post in a more accurate maneer which would only make it more helpful to the mappers. I have yet to notice anyone complaining about the actual content of your feedback.

Gaming mapping background: Play DN3D single player releases, play/review Half Life 2 single player releases on Planet Phillip. Belong to online gaming clan Jolly Rogers for Darkest Hour/Red Orchestra. No mapping skills, just a player.

[Forge]

Blue Lightning, on 08 March 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

Nah. This Blue Lightning person was just pointing out some weak spots, as well as the strong spots. When praising a map I notice nobody minds, but when pointing out something that might be improved, some dont want to hear it, although I was actually proposing an idea.

So I guess only speak when it is all positive? Ok, I see how that works. (man I forgot what it was like here)

That's not it. I noticed this Blue Lightning person was focused on the exact same subject under another release thread, so this Forge person was wrongly under the impression of a possible troll. I apologize.

I hate invisible walls as well, but more so for the ones out in the middle of nowhere with no indication that there's supposed to be a barrier. Ones on the edges of cliffs and buildings aren't so bad because at least you know there's a line or boundary.

"Negative" feedback is as important as positive. Not everybody is going to agree to the extremity of the points made, but the mapper should receive an idea of what works and what doesn't

[MetHy]

Yeah, I appreciate negative feedback as much as positive ones; sometimes even more because positive feedback often just stops at "i liked it" while with negative things you more often get an explanation on why the player thought some points were bad.

[Blue Lightning]

I enjoy playing and giving feedback. Really, just as a player, I feel like each map is a work of art. It reflects the authors imagination...what the author can do with models that was presented to him/her...and then how they arrange it all. It really is an art.

Sure I point out what (IMO) might be improved, but only to help in the sense of feedback, not to upset anyone. Anything I say is just my opinion anyway for whatever that might be worth.

Recently I got to beta test a lunar map. Now that was a blast!

[ck3D]

i finally got to play this, a pretty solid release, i remember seeing that map in its early development status a few years back, so it's good to see it released, my favorite looking place was the carpark section but i love the moody look you managed to give to the entire map, it looked coherent in a way that really reminded me of how most good user maps from the late 90's worked and felt, also i liked the flow of the gameplay, and i thought the way you built the pool hall with the mirrors and everything to make it look bigger was a nice conceptual addition to the map, anyway i enjoyed playing this

[MetHy]

Thanks