[rasmus thorup]

This map is a 7/10. Great gameplay, but a bit too easy. The mapping was good. You could have put in a bit more detail. The map was filled with wrong sized objects. The strippers were about 3.5 meters tall.

[Merlijn]

I liked it very much. Gameplay didn't give me any trouble at all - in fact I found the map to be pretty easy (played on let's rock). There are 2 secrets containing a RPG and I found them both, I guess that helped.
Design is solid throughout IMO, there are indeed some visual glitches but they didn't distract me too much. The huge pool centre was the highlight of the level, I really liked the scale and those mirrors were a cool touch.
One weaker point would be the ending, the way the level ended felt a bit random and sudden to me. I would have liked some more rooftop + jetpack action, now the jetpack felt a bit useless and thrown in at the last minute. But overall, a very enjoyable map.

[Mikko]

If noobs found the map difficult and pros easy then I guess we got it about right!

[Danukem]

Mikko_Sandt, on 25 February 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:

If noobs found the map difficult and pros easy then I guess we got it about right!

I would say so. And I would add that this is a map where the player can be reasonably expected to find a lot of the secrets. Most of them are pretty obvious.

[rasmus thorup]

Well that is why we have difficulty levels. I found it too easy on the hardest difficulty, which means that he could probably put in more monsters on that difficulty. So it's not "about right".

[MetHy]

Merlijn, on 25 February 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

I liked it very much. Gameplay didn't give me any trouble at all - in fact I found the map to be pretty easy (played on let's rock). There are 2 secrets containing a RPG and I found them both, I guess that helped.
Design is solid throughout IMO, there are indeed some visual glitches but they didn't distract me too much. The huge pool centre was the highlight of the level, I really liked the scale and those mirrors were a cool touch.
One weaker point would be the ending, the way the level ended felt a bit random and sudden to me. I would have liked some more rooftop + jetpack action, now the jetpack felt a bit useless and thrown in at the last minute. But overall, a very enjoyable map.

Thanks for the comment.

I too would have like to see more rooftop action, but considering that the map was started around 2006, at this point it's already incredible it got finished (thanks to Mikko); so at some point it's good to say "fuck it, it's done".
The jetpack was put there for noob players who don't know how to strafe-jump, because that last jump is impossible if you don't strafe jump. Like this there is still a solution for them to beat the map. (I remembered players complaining about jumps that were impossible to be made in Mikko's BNW episode)

I've fixed the misaligned textures I had missed and I'm now trying to fix the glitches.

[Forge]

Reviewed

http://www.scent-88....r/sincenter.php

[MetHy]

I've fixed most misaligned textures (all that got reported, a few more I found; except for vents. Fuck vents, every single mapper probably knows they are hell to align, though I did improve them a bit), fixed the entrance door of the pool club, tuned down the size of bitches a little bit, made the mirrors unbreakable, deleted the jetpack (because like Mikko pointed out to me, that jump is actually possible with no strafe jump), updated the txt file as well as fixed a couple of corrupted sectors.

Mapster is still finding 2 errors though but fuck it, I'm not touching it more. It's done. Plus, depending on the version of eduke32 used, some glitches appear, some don't, and in some cases none appear at all (I'd like to know how the map plays in original dos Duke if somebody still uses that).

Mikko replaced the file already for those who care.

Thanks for the feeback everybody.

Edit : with Forge that's 2 people complaining the map isn't hard enough, so I just added about 7 enemies in come get some only. Now it's done. More feedback is of course welcome but I'm definitely done with it.

[Forge]

I played it (the first version) in software mode using snapshot 2344 and didn't encounter any of the reported glitches.

[Mikko]

rasmus thorup, on 25 February 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

Well that is why we have difficulty levels. I found it too easy on the hardest difficulty, which means that he could probably put in more monsters on that difficulty. So it's not "about right".

It is about right. The opinion of a few hardcore Duke3D players is next to irrelevant because they're going to find usermaps easy anyway (there are exceptions though, usually tedious exceptions). I find 99% of usermaps easy. The original maps (which were the source of inspiration for this map) are piss easy even on hard. Moreover, increasing the monster count as a means to increase the difficulty level is risky as it can render a map boring.

[Forge]

the quantity of enemies was spot on. there was too much health at the back end of the parking garage where the first mini-battlelord spawned. there was also too much fire power; never even used the devastator, shrinker, or freezer (don't remember if there were pipebombs or not. if there were, didn't use them either)

[rasmus thorup]

The shrinker also works too well on mini battlelords. 1 shrinker ammo pack equals killing 5 minibattlelords with minimal effort.

[Mikko]

rasmus thorup, on 25 February 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

The shrinker also works too well on mini battlelords. 1 shrinker ammo pack equals killing 5 minibattlelords with minimal effort.

Blame EDuke32. The Shrinker obviously should do no damage to Battlelords. Mappers should not start removing Shrinkers from maps with mini Battlelords or vice versa because of an EDuke32 feature.

[TerminX]

What? That has nothing to do with EDuke32... the shrinker always shrunk mini-Battlelords, though they usually have to be hit at the right angle for it to work. The only reason you can even shrink them in the first place is because the CONs are programmed to allow shrinking Battlelords with a palette other than 0.

Relevant CON code:

state checkboss1hitstate
    ifrnd 2 spawn BLOODPOOL
    ifdead
    {
        ifspritepal 0 globalsound DUKE_TALKTOBOSSFALL
        else
        {
            ifrnd 64 globalsound DUKE_TALKTOBOSSFALL
            ifwasweapon FREEZEBLAST { sound SOMETHINGFROZE spritepal 1 move 0 action ABOSS1FROZEN strength 0 break }
        }

        sound BOS1_DYING

        addkills 1
        ai AIBOSS1DYING
    }
    else
    {
        ifrnd 32 { action BOSS1FLINTCH move 0 }

        ifspritepal 0 { }
        else ifwasweapon SHRINKSPARK { sound ACTOR_SHRINKING ai AIBOSS1PALSHRINK break }

        soundonce BOS1_PAIN

        debris SCRAP1 1
        guts JIBS6 1
    }
ends

[Danukem]

^ I always fix the shrinker "bug" in my mods, along with some other bugs in the original CONs. It's one reason I never play the game with the original CON files. I seem to remember a few years ago that Hendricks266 and I had talked about making a GAME.CON that was just about bug fixes and didn't add any new features. Personally, I would find that pretty boring, but maybe it would be a good idea to release that for those who want a classic vanilla experience without the bugs, and do not want to use a more weighty mod.

On the subject of the shrinker bug, the way I fix it in my latest mod is I have all monsters do a health check when hit by the shrinker (before ifhitweapon, of course), and if their health is > 400 it is treated like bullet damage. This allows it to work on minibosses, but only if their health drops to about fat commander level or below. And of course pal 0 bosses are never affected.

As I was saying, though, there are other exploits worth fixing. For example, the player can restore full health at any water fountain or toilet water. It's obvious that the original developers were not too concerned about the game being easy.

[Mikko]

The game was tested/balanced probably a billion times with that bug and usermaps were designed & played for a decade with that bug so yes, removing the bug qualifies as an EDuke32 feature as it severely affects gameplay balance.

[Hank]

^ I'm lost. Is/was the shrinker supposed to shrink the mini-boss? I say yes.
What major balance? People play differently. This map has a very balanced ammo/health/actor matrix. I cheated anyway, jumped to the lower roof and pressed on the exit button while the mini-boss was yapping and shooting; and used the Freezer/Pipe Bombs for the mini-boss before that. The shrinker would make no difference here for myself. - I use the shrinker for the little actors in Damn' I'm good, when I want to snoop around a bit. I honestly can't see a major potential weapon imbalance either way.

[rasmus thorup]

You can't just ignore stuff when it's not your fault. It is a fact that the shrinker works on mini bosses. Then it is the mappers job to work around with that. If i made this game. The shrinker should be like a debuff.

[Danukem]

Mikko_Sandt, on 25 February 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

The game was tested/balanced probably a billion times with that bug and usermaps were designed & played for a decade with that bug so yes, removing the bug qualifies as an EDuke32 feature as it severely affects gameplay balance.

But TX was saying that EDuke32 with the original CONs behaves the same way as DOS Duke. Is that not true?

[rasmus thorup]

What bug are you guys talking about? I don't see any.

[Mikko]

DeeperThought, on 25 February 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

But TX was saying that EDuke32 with the original CONs behaves the same way as DOS Duke. Is that not true?

I misread his post. I don't use the Shrinker on Battlelords because this is a habit that has persevered since before EDuke32. I don't remember ever killing a mini Battlelord in Duke3D with the Shrinker prior to EDuke32.

Originally I was responding to this ridiculous and totally misleading claim:

rasmus thorup, on 25 February 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

The shrinker also works too well on mini battlelords. 1 shrinker ammo pack equals killing 5 minibattlelords with minimal effort.

This implies one shot per one kill, as if it were easy to kill mini Battlelords with the Shrinker, which is of course not the case whether this particular person finds it easy or not.

[rasmus thorup]

I remember before that the shrinker required more shots for the battlelord to shrink. Could this be the case with dukeplus? Or did i do something wrong :S

[Hank]

Mikko_Sandt, on 25 February 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

Originally I was responding to this ridiculous and totally misleading claim:



This implies one shot per one kill, as if it were easy to kill mini Battlelords with the Shrinker, which is of course not the case whether this particular person finds it easy or not.

... it is true! see image below.
This image was taken, using Duke 3D version 1.5 cons from the source code released in 2003, on my test enemy map.
I just did this a moment ago. I used only one shot of shrink ammo here. - The one shot shrinker is old news, well for me. Here, the boss only shot with those useless balls, I did not even get a scratch. Looks kinda cute, come to think of it.

[Gambini]

For the record: Battlelords were easy to kill with the shrinker for me. And i´m a tedious player. I would have not used the shrinker, i also hate the fact it can kill a battlelord with one shot. But I was getting so many weapons and so much ammo, that i thought something really big was ahead, so I tried to save resources. to some exent, i agree with Forge about the weapons being too many. I finished the level without using the freezer nor the RPG, and of the five pipebombs I got, only one were used.

PS: I made the last jump at the first attemp and never in my life used strafejump, so the jetpack could be removed.

@Methy: I read you´re done with the map. Sadly I´m late, but here´s a bug most people surely overlooked: If you are crouching you can´t go across those fence shadows in the floor of one of the main areas (the one surrounded by the garage IIRC). That´s because the shade sprite is blockable, and should not be so.

[Paul B]

More missed textures and shading spots. I was pretty tired last night and forgot to mention more of the obvious stuff. So here it is there isn't much. Just for the record i played through the map a second time. I had more ammo the second time because enemies were actually dropping ammo. where the first time i dont think one enemy dropped any ammo it was just bad luck. You know the map has a very smart layout. It really feels like a real place. Everything has a plausible and clean look to it. I really like the pool hall room layout and how things are positioned in a way that makes it confusing to find the right direction to go in when its so wide open. Typically the player ends up exploring all corners before eventually finding the right way out while enjoying the architechture and design of that room. It truely feels like a pool hall. I can almost smell the cigarette smoke when i'm in that room.

Texturing/Lighting-Shading: 7/10
Sprite Work/Detailing: 8/10
Ambiance: 9/10
Architecture: 18/20
Layout: 19/20
Gameplay: 20/30
Overall: 81/100

Attached File(s)

•  missed texture problems.zip (609.21K)
  Number of downloads: 363

[Mikko]

Hank, on 25 February 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

... it is true! see image below.

I don't doubt that it's possible to kill Battlelords with the Shrinker. I have done this myself but, as I said, it wasn't until EDuke32 came out. See below.

Gambini, on 25 February 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

i agree with Forge about the weapons being too many. I finished the level without using the freezer nor the RPG, and of the five pipebombs I got, only one were used.

Well quite frankly this is the case with the vast majority of maps, including the originals which I'm using as a reference point for obvious reasons. I refer to my earlier point about experienced players not being a good measuring stick. (This also applies to the Shrinker thing. Most casual players probably don't know that it's possible to shrink mini Battlelords or at least are under the impression that it takes many shots to do so. Hell, as I said, even I didn't know that what's needed is hitting them from a specific angle.) I think people like Paul B and Mickey C are closer to the average player these days than you or I.

[Paul B]

'Mikko_Sandt - we'll see whose average Mikko. I've been playing duke nukem well before your website and your days mapping. Not to mention way before Version 1.4 & 1.5 and the Duke Repository. Just because I haven't been on these forums until now doesn't make me new to Duke. I've had my own domain hosting 1.3 Duke maps when Geocities.com was still going strong with a Duke Fan Base and personal pages. Infact there weren't many professional websites that hosted duke nukem maps. I believe Legion was one of the few. We used the Ten network, Mplayer & Kali to establish multi player online games. The user maps were all on ftp which I downloaded with a 9600 baud USR external dial up modem.


Those are fighting words and I look forward to seeing you in a Duke Death Match some time =)

You should show some respect to the veterns of the game as well as the new comers on the forums.

[Mikko]

Paul B, on 25 February 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

'Mikko_Sandt - we'll see whose average Mikko. I've been playing duke nukem well before your website and your days mapping. Those are fighting words. Look forward to seeing you in a Duke Death Match some time

Well correct me if I'm wrong but you're the one, along with Micky C, who whined about the map being difficult whileas everyone else complained about it being too easy. Your words, not mine.

[Paul B]

It wasn't that it was too hard. it was the lack of ammo. I shouldn't have to kick the mini boss to kill him. When I ran out of ammo that was when my health went down. I like to play maps without having to conserve too much ammo as I have a heavy trigger finger. Unfortunately, when i played the map the first time the pig cops weren't dropping shotguns and neither were the chain gun guys. So i was very unlucky. Anyway, playing a map one time through isn't enough for a proper judgement. Which was why I had to play the map a second time through. I enjoyed the map more the second time anyway and I have a better appreciation for it and I didn't have to cheat to finish it. As well, due to the hour i was playing last night my aim was a bit skewed.

[Hank]

Gambini, on 25 February 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

But I was getting so many weapons and so much ammo, that i thought something really big was ahead, so I tried to save resources. to some exent, i agree with Forge about the weapons being too many. I finished the level without using the freezer nor the RPG, and of the five pipebombs I got, only one were used.

So? What are mappers supposed to do, play Scrooge with ammo, health and equipment? Mappers then force the player to follow a very tight game play. There should be left overs, if you allow for different player and game styles.

Mikko_Sandt, on 25 February 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

I don't doubt that it's possible to kill Battlelords with the Shrinker. I have done this myself but, as I said, it wasn't until EDuke32 came out. See below.

I shrank the mini-boss in version Duke version 1.3 . Perhaps, in version 1.4/1.5 the coders (3D Realms) made some changes? Well, either way, if a given mapper wishes to keep the shrinker off-limits to a mini-boss, the game.con can be fixed for that.

@ MetHy - I just noticed two more legitimate 'short cuts' in the map. It seems the map gets better the more I play it. Yes, I am for alternate ways. Cheers, and thanks.