[Person of Color]

http://www.reuters.c...E77N82K20110824

This is really bad news...

[MusicallyInspired]

He's still chairman.

[Danukem]

He has pancreatic cancer. It's not good.

[Kathy]

He had.

[Danukem]

Helel, on 24 August 2011 - 08:57 PM, said:

He had.

You think he's all better now? Cancer comes back. He just resigned...

[Hendricks266]

Oh internet...

[Jimmy]

Steve Jobs sucks and so does Apple. All they do is pander to the idiotic and the retarded.

[Person of Color]

Captain Awesome, on 25 August 2011 - 06:03 AM, said:

Steve Jobs sucks and so does Apple. All they do is pander to the idiotic and the retarded.

You are the last person I would have expected to say that.

Apple has done the following:

-Popularized the home computer before anyone else.
-Created the first home computer with gaming as a large part of the design (Apple II)
-Refined and popularized the mouse. They were the first company to make a reliable, high quality, low cost mouse.
-Designed and popularized the modern GUI (The Xerox systems operated much differently than what we use today).
-Revolutionized desktop publishing in the 80's (Mac/AppleTalk networks/LaserWriter)
-Created OS X, which has been the most advanced consumer operating system on the planet for a full decade.
-Created Final Cut Pro, one of the most powerful prosumer/professional video editing systems, ever.
-Revolutionized the portable media player market.
-Created the blueprint for every modern smartphone.

All of this was done while Jobs was at the company. His 12 year absence from Apple was a black smear on the company's history.

Jobs also turned Pixar into a behemoth, which, unlike Disney, was dripping with innovation. At NeXT he spearheaded some of the greatest enthusiast computers ever built. They were so good, in fact, that John Carmack wrote Doom on them. In fact, all of id Software used NeXT machines for a while.

I'm leaving tons of smaller stuff out too. And big stuff, I'm tired.

Bottom line, Jobs is one of the greatest visionaries of our time.

Oh, and my brother's rich ass friend has a brand new quad core 15" MacBook Pro. That is seriously the greatest laptop I've ever used, worth every expensive ass penny. It blows my Asus G51Vx gaming laptop into the weeds, weighs fucking nothing, has the greatest touchpad/keyboard ever and is built so well it can be used as a weapon. It's amazing. I want one soooo fucking bad. The performance/portability ratio is like nothing I've ever seen.

P.S. I'm a PC/Android guy.

[Kyphros]

You forgot all the bad things and stupid behaviours they had under the influence of Jobs. For example, their recent illegal cooperation with the book editors to augment the ebooks' prices, in order to sink Amazon.

Apple may have done good things in the past, but it's been deriving slowly towards a nonproductive, corrupted kind of company. They also became horribly annoying patent trolls, and liars. Look at what they're currently doing to Samsung. They lied about the design of the Galaxy S by modifying 2 photos in order to make the Galaxy S look like more the iPhone than it actually does; all that for stupid patents, which are just used by Apple to keep the other companies in difficulty instead of being used to promote creativity.

I agree somehow with what you say, but it was yesterday's Apple. Today's Apple is the opposite.

[Person of Color]

Kyphros, on 26 August 2011 - 12:35 AM, said:

You forgot all the bad things and stupid behaviours they had under the influence of Jobs. For example, their recent illegal cooperation with the book editors to augment the ebooks' prices, in order to sink Amazon.

Apple may have done good things in the past, but it's been deriving slowly towards a nonproductive, corrupted kind of company. They also became horribly annoying patent trolls, and liars. Look at what they're currently doing to Samsung. They lied about the design of the Galaxy S by modifying 2 photos in order to make the Galaxy S look like more the iPhone than it actually does; all that for stupid patents, which are just used by Apple to keep the other companies in difficulty instead of being used to promote creativity.

I agree somehow with what you say, but it was yesterday's Apple. Today's Apple is the opposite.

I know about that. I was defending Apple's track record with product innovation, but today's Apple isn't the opposite quite yet. When they start acting like they did during Michael Spindler's reign as CEO, then we should be worried. Crippled products at premium prices.

I think the good Apple does outweighs the evil. If they continue to play like pussies though, I'm not going to defend them.

I do agree, however, that they have developed this Ferrari like attitude the past couple of years which is toxic. I'm a car guy, and I know this analogy will fall on deaf ears, but Ferrari also has the same issue. You already have, in the eyes of the consumer, the best product around, but you deceive and cheat to further your reputation soley due to arrogance and paranoia, not greed.

Cupertino's attitude is nowhere near as bad as the attitude coming out of Maranello, but it might rival it in the future.

[Tetsuo]

Captain Awesome, on 25 August 2011 - 06:03 AM, said:

Steve Jobs sucks and so does Apple. All they do is pander to the idiotic and the retarded.

It doesn't really help your cause or make you look intelligent to make asinine blanket statements like this... sorry. I feel like my IQ points dropped just by seeing this. Even playing DNF makes me feel more intelligent.

[Jimmy]

Tetsuo, on 26 August 2011 - 10:30 AM, said:

It doesn't really help your cause or make you look intelligent to make asinine blanket statements like this... sorry. I feel like my IQ points dropped just by seeing this. Even playing DNF makes me feel more intelligent.

The fuck are you on about? Their own commercials have people talking about how they couldn't turn off a computer, much less use one. These are the same people who should not being using computers at all.

[Tetsuo]

What are YOU on about? They ran that ad campaign 9 years ago and wasn't very effective so they phased it out! I used to be against their products myself but then I actually used them and saw stuff like OS X first hand and how it's no more dumbed down than Windows is. It's about as simple or complex as you want it to be especially with the unix foundation. But back in 2002 Mac OS X was still in it's infancy and most people still ran the crap system that is OS 9 and below. It's not just stupid and retarded people who buy and use Apple products and on the flipside it's not just "smart people" who buy other types of products... I see plenty of people buying non-Apple computer products who would fit your description of someone who should not be using computers at all. But I don't expect any rational thoughts coming from you so I don't expect you will agree. Besides it sounds like you are saying it doesn't matter if Steve Jobs dies of a terminal illness because you think his products are crap anyway.

[Jimmy]

No doubt, that's why Macs are a minority in computing.

[Tetsuo]

One whose growth is crushing the rest of the PC industry right now that is stagnating.

[Jimmy]

Only because it attracts idiots. Computer users were traditionally smart people and that's just about it. Any dunce can use an iPad, but how many people can figure out their way through a command line?

[Tetsuo]

Right and nobody who buys a Mac or uses an iPad ever uses the command line. You seem to think you always have something profound to say but you are coming off as foolish, sorry. That was no more profound than questioning how many windows users use cmd.exe. Microsoft products attract an equal or greater amount of idiots to them who then make a bigger support industry.. probably more because there's more chaff among that wheat. So there's a greater amount of dunces buying Winderz computers et al.

[Jimmy]

You are coming off as foolish. I never praised Windows, in fact, I have many similar points of contention with Microsoft. Stop assuming.

[Tetsuo]

Touché, just like you are assuming everyone who uses an apple product is an idiot. Good job making an ass out of you and me though. Stop assuming.

[Jimmy]

I'm not assuming. Apple products cater towards people who have no idea how to browse a GUI effectively. Their own website practically says this. They also pander to idiocy by implying Macs aren't PC's and that Macs don't have virii, implying that somehow having parts and software from multiple different specialised companies is a bad thing and somehow makes things so 'complex' that programs will hang or freeze (while also implying that Macs don't do this, while they do), and even going so far as to state that Apple can do things better than you can. In fact, a guiding statement from Apple even says that you're probably too stupid to use a computer, so we've made it easier for you.

[Fox]

That's completely biased.

For example, read what the FAQ says about virus: "The OS X operating system isn’t susceptible to the thousands of viruses plaguing Windows-based computers." How on Earth dows this translates in "Macs don't have virus"?

Another example is that the FAQ doesn't say Macs don't freeza, it says "they" rarely do. And that's true at least when compared to Windows. Besides, their explanation about why PCs freezes or crashes is quite correct.

[Tetsuo]

1) "Apple puts as much thought into the software that comes on a Mac as the Mac itself. Apple applications work together, and they work in similar ways. So once you get the hang of one application, it takes little or no effort to master the others. " They where just talking about how consistency and how especially for new users that makes it an easier system to learn because of predictability of how different applications work compared to each other. Other people are aping their interface including people building software for Linux. Improving things like that benefits everyone not just the idiots who would mess things up no matter what system they are on. You get a lot of PEBKAC no matter what system you are on.

2) Compared to the amount of Malware there is for other systems like Windows there aren't any virii for the Mac in fact there aren't any that could be technically called a virus more like pieces of malware that can probably be counted on one hand that for the most part require you to enter in your credentials to run. If you got infected it's your own damn fault and much more rare than on Windows with the thousands of virii and malware available for it. That's not to say there is absolutely no malware.. there is but yeah... it's like comparing a mountain to a mole hill. When something has very little of something it's enough for most people to then claim it has none to be honest. Like people say there aren't any Linux virii\malware.

3) They said Macs "RARELY" freeze and that's true. That's not misleading. However that can't be said about the entire line going back to the beginning of time that part is true especially with failing hardware and such. Macs are also a more controlled package that's also true. But on the other hand more commodity parts (depending on model... their laptops need custom parts for their form factors for example) are used now after their switch to intel. But then again there's a lot more crap out there masquerading as PCs.... again a lot more chaff amongs the wheat there.

4) "The best way to transfer your photos, music, documents, and other files is to let us do it for you." They said the BEST way for a new user not the ONLY way for everyone. There are alternatives and you can do things like that however you want. That actually applies to the whole system when you come down to it. You can use the finder to manage your files or you can manage them from the terminal if you wanted for example.

In the end just because they may say certain things on their web site to attract new users that can be interpreted as you have that doesn't mean their entire user base are idiots. You're making negative interpretations of some things reading too much into them that aren't meant the way you are saying they are.

I'm not saying they are perfect in fact I have had points of contention with them now and in the past but the way you are painting this whole subject is sheer lunacy and the hell it IS assuming.... on an even grander scale! Epic even.. like the grand canyon! Again assuming everyone who uses an Apple product is an idiot is a hell of an assumption to make.

[Danukem]

Any company that ignores idiots is missing out on a huge number of potential customers. There's nothing wrong with pandering to idiots as long as the product satisfies the needs of non-idiots as well.

[Jimmy]

Fox, on 28 August 2011 - 07:21 PM, said:

That's completely biased.

For example, read what the FAQ says about virus: "The OS X operating system isn’t susceptible to the thousands of viruses plaguing Windows-based computers." How on Earth dows this translates in "Macs don't have virus"?

Another example is that the FAQ doesn't say Macs don't freeza, it says "they" rarely do. And that's true at least when compared to Windows. Besides, their explanation about why PCs freezes or crashes is quite correct.

The FAQ only vaguely touches the issue that malware exists for Macs, and instead focuses on Windows machines.

They do not offer any explanation other than the fact that the parts 'weren't made for each other' which is rather incorrect since they work together in the first place. The real issue isn't that it's made by different people its just that nine times out of ten people buy a cheaply made product. As a result the end product doesn't work as well. This isn't an issue from the fact you can use multiple different parts.

Tetsuo, on 28 August 2011 - 07:45 PM, said:

1) "Apple puts as much thought into the software that comes on a Mac as the Mac itself. Apple applications work together, and they work in similar ways. So once you get the hang of one application, it takes little or no effort to master the others. " They where just talking about how consistency and how especially for new users that makes it an easier system to learn because of predictability of how different applications work compared to each other. Other people are aping their interface including people building software for Linux. Improving things like that benefits everyone not just the idiots who would mess things up no matter what system they are on. You get a lot of PEBKAC no matter what system you are on.

True, but this just panders to simplicity. Do not forget that there was a time many programs only worked from command line functions, and as a result the user ended up paying closer attention to what they were doing. The fact that a general user now cannot even traverse a GUI is quite sad.

Tetsuo, on 28 August 2011 - 07:45 PM, said:

2) Compared to the amount of Malware there is for other systems like Windows there aren't any virii for the Mac in fact there aren't any that could be technically called a virus more like pieces of malware that can probably be counted on one hand that for the most part require you to enter in your credentials to run. If you got infected it's your own damn fault and much more rare than on Windows with the thousands of virii and malware available for it. That's not to say there is absolutely no malware.. there is but yeah... it's like comparing a mountain to a mole hill. When something has very little of something it's enough for most people to then claim it has none to be honest. Like people say there aren't any Linux virii\malware.

I'll give you that, but it's really only because Macs are a minority. People who make malware don't give a shit, because there aren't enough users to really warrant the work it takes.

Tetsuo, on 28 August 2011 - 07:45 PM, said:

3) They said Macs "RARELY" freeze and that's true. That's not misleading. However that can't be said about the entire line going back to the beginning of time that part is true especially with failing hardware and such. Macs are also a more controlled package that's also true. But on the other hand more commodity parts (depending on model... their laptops need custom parts for their form factors for example) are used now after their switch to intel. But then again there's a lot more crap out there masquerading as PCs.... again a lot more chaff amongs the wheat there.

The ability for more user control over company control only drives competition in my opinion.

Tetsuo, on 28 August 2011 - 07:45 PM, said:

4) "The best way to transfer your photos, music, documents, and other files is to let us do it for you." They said the BEST way for a new user not the ONLY way for everyone. There are alternatives and you can do things like that however you want. That actually applies to the whole system when you come down to it. You can use the finder to manage your files or you can manage them from the terminal if you wanted for example.

I never said it was the only way. I said that they thought they were smarter than you.

Tetsuo, on 28 August 2011 - 07:45 PM, said:

In the end just because they may say certain things on their web site to attract new users that can be interpreted as you have that doesn't mean their entire user base are idiots. You're making negative interpretations of some things reading too much into them that aren't meant the way you are saying they are.

I'm not saying they are perfect in fact I have had points of contention with them now and in the past but the way you are painting this whole subject is sheer lunacy and the hell it IS assuming.... on an even grander scale! Epic even.. like the grand canyon! Again assuming everyone who uses an Apple product is an idiot is a hell of an assumption to make.

Either way, reading their site I get nothing but the same snobby tone you get at a Starbucks (Blech!) But no, no, no. You're making blanket statements here. I didn't say every Apple user was an idiot, I said that Apple panders to the idiotic and the retarded. Vastly different statements with much different implications.

DeeperThought, on 28 August 2011 - 08:31 PM, said:

Any company that ignores idiots is missing out on a huge number of potential customers. There's nothing wrong with pandering to idiots as long as the product satisfies the needs of non-idiots as well.

But does it make a satisfying product in the end? Sure for your general send forward email user it does, but computer geekery generally means you have to use Windows programs at some point.

[Tetsuo]

Captain Awesome, on 28 August 2011 - 10:29 PM, said:

They do not offer any explanation other than the fact that the parts 'weren't made for each other' which is rather incorrect since they work together in the first place. The real issue isn't that it's made by different people its just that nine times out of ten people buy a cheaply made product. As a result the end product doesn't work as well. This isn't an issue from the fact you can use multiple different parts.

I'll probably give you the idea that they are exaggerating the whole PC situation with the hardware. However, their marketing department is obviously trying to trump up any benefit they have and you can't get a cheaply made Mac.... unless you put together a Hackintosh which then you should know what you are doing. I've turned a PC Laptop into a Hackbook and installing OS X on non-apple hardware can be a pain. But obviously buying a tightly integrated hardware with good industrial design is marketable not just to the idiots.

Quote

True, but this just panders to simplicity. Do not forget that there was a time many programs only worked from command line functions, and as a result the user ended up paying closer attention to what they were doing. The fact that a general user now cannot even traverse a GUI is quite sad.

You say that first part like it's a bad thing. I'd say more modern software... well designed modern software panders to usability. Think what you will but Apple makes some really well designed software. My first computer was DOS only and while it was a good learning experience my life wasn't more enriched back then than it is now and now even on a Mac I can use the command line bash shell terminal whenever I want so there's nothing lost there.

Quote

I'll give you that, but it's really only because Macs are a minority. People who make malware don't give a shit, because there aren't enough users to really warrant the work it takes.

People say this sometimes but don't you think there are enough anti-apple like yourself who would like to be known as the hacker who took down apple and make all those apple sheeple eat crow? To a degree this may be true but to another degree OS X is probably inherently more secure with it's Unix certified foundation. Mac OS 9 had a crappy foundation and had a ton of virii for it even at a time when apple had a much smaller audience than it does now.

Quote

I never said it was the only way. I said that they thought they were smarter than you.

Maybe they do, maybe they don't... either way they never took away any options for doing things the way you want do with stuff such as transferring files from an older computer to a new one. Again this applies to all other aspects of the computer. That page wasn't written for people like me though it was written for brand new people.... and it's not a bad thing to reassure them.

Quote

Either way, reading their site I get nothing but the same snobby tone you get at a Starbucks (Blech!) But no, no, no. You're making blanket statements here. I didn't say every Apple user was an idiot, I said that Apple panders to the idiotic and the retarded. Vastly different statements with much different implications.

That's still up to interpretation and you are choosing to interpret innocuous things reading between the lines and coming up with negativity. I'm making blanket statements? That's rich, you say Apple panders to the idiotic and retarded. Does that not imply that Apple customers are idiotic and retarded? Pander.. to quote freedictionary: "To act as a go-between or liaison in sexual intrigues; function as a procurer. 2. To cater to the lower tastes and desires of others or exploit their weaknesses" If it panders to idiots and retards as you say so the final product is by extension tailored for them only "idiots or retards" would buy such a product. To be honest I think Microsoft does more pandering in that regard. In order to get a fraction of the advanced stuff Apple provides with a $30 copy of Lion especially with the Unix stuff available by default you have to buy a server edition of Windows for much more money or install third party software like Cygwin. Only Linux or other Unix-like systems.. certified or not can match or beat OS X in that regard... and I'm talking from experience.

Quote

But does it make a satisfying product in the end? Sure for your general send forward email user it does, but computer geekery generally means you have to use Windows programs at some point.

Wrong, the only Windows programs I need to use are games (more like want than need actually.. and I get those running in OS X anyway via either official ports or WINE based software and if not well THAT is when I use a PC I have on the side for), for everything else there's a mac app first or third party and barring that I can use stuff like macports to download and compile a plethora of open source software like on Linux. Like I said before it's about as simple or complex as you make it\want it.

I understand though that you have a bigoted view about Apple and it's products and I probably wasted my time with this but oh well.

[Hendricks266]

Captain Awesome, on 28 August 2011 - 10:29 PM, said:

but computer geekery generally means you have to use Windows GNU/Linux programs at some point.

Fixed.

[Micky C]

Captain Awesome, on 28 August 2011 - 07:11 PM, said:

I'm not assuming. Apple products cater towards people who have no idea how to browse a GUI effectively. Their own website practically says this. They also pander to idiocy by implying Macs aren't PC's and that Macs don't have virii, implying that somehow having parts and software from multiple different specialised companies is a bad thing and somehow makes things so 'complex' that programs will hang or freeze (while also implying that Macs don't do this, while they do), and even going so far as to state that Apple can do things better than you can. In fact, a guiding statement from Apple even says that you're probably too stupid to use a computer, so we've made it easier for you.

A lot of older members in society don't know how to use a computer because they didn't grow up with them and didn't see the need to learn, in which case macs are a good starting point. And as a user of both mac and windows, I find that my mac (which runs older hardware than my PC) freezes far less. Even then, when it does freeze, it's much easier and faster to actually quit the unresponsive program.

[Person of Color]

Captain Awesome, on 28 August 2011 - 07:11 PM, said:

I'm not assuming. Apple products cater towards people who have no idea how to browse a GUI effectively. Their own website practically says this. They also pander to idiocy by implying Macs aren't PC's and that Macs don't have virii, implying that somehow having parts and software from multiple different specialised companies is a bad thing and somehow makes things so 'complex' that programs will hang or freeze (while also implying that Macs don't do this, while they do), and even going so far as to state that Apple can do things better than you can. In fact, a guiding statement from Apple even says that you're probably too stupid to use a computer, so we've made it easier for you.

Marketing does not equal the reality of why people buy the product.

I live in a dual platform house. We have numerous PC's and two macs, three iPhones, a Motorola Atrix, an iPad and an HP Touchpad. I'm a PC/Android guy. My dad switched over to Mac because he wanted a superior quality product with better aftermarket support. His aluminum body Macbook is better built than any PC save for a Toughbook. Two months ago his enter key popped off and he went into an Apple store and they clicked on a new one for free, and they didn't give a shit he was out of warranty. Out of town on business, no money lost, no downtime. Two days ago he wanted to buy a second battery for Hurricane Irene and walked into the Apple store, bought one, and left. If he has a question or system trouble he can drive to an Apple store anywhere in the nation and get help from people who actually know computers.

On top of that, the MobileMe ecosystem syncs flawlessly with everything on his machine and his iPhone. If his iPhone is stolen he can permanently shut it off, and unlike with Android phones, that can't be overidden on the go. It works FAR better than the old WinMo, and BlackBerry phones we've had and it works much better than HTC or Motorola Sync.

The Apple ecosystem is far superior if you want stability. Aside from one kernel panic he has never had an issue in three years of ownership. No virus infections, no software hiccups, nothing. And he's a traveling businessman and needs shit working 100% of the time. This is the same reason my brother bought a MacBook for college, even though he builds gaming computers like I do. Unix, baby.

Speaking of Unix, Mac OS has a bash shell and XWindow support...It's a pretty gritty OS if you want it to be. By comparison, PC's still have the same shitty, underpowered, user friendly command line they've had since 1981.

If you wanna talk CLI's Mac comes out on top...extremely powerful, with actual skill needed...why? It's fucking Unix based.

Mac OS is friendly to both n00bs and power users, just like Windows. It's just that the two OS's go about their business in different ways.

DeeperThought, on 28 August 2011 - 08:31 PM, said:

Any company that ignores idiots is missing out on a huge number of potential customers. There's nothing wrong with pandering to idiots as long as the product satisfies the needs of non-idiots as well.

Amen.

[Kathy]

Descent, on 29 August 2011 - 09:02 AM, said:

By comparison, PC's still have the same shitty, underpowered, user friendly command line they've had since 1981.

What about PowerShell?

[Jimmy]

Descent, on 29 August 2011 - 09:02 AM, said:

Marketing does not equal the reality of why people buy the product.

It does, to a degree. If you marketed something as difficult to use and intimidating, it wouldn't sell well.

Descent, on 29 August 2011 - 09:02 AM, said:

I live in a dual platform house. We have numerous PC's and two macs, three iPhones, a Motorola Atrix, an iPad and an HP Touchpad. I'm a PC/Android guy. My dad switched over to Mac because he wanted a superior quality product with better aftermarket support. His aluminum body Macbook is better built than any PC save for a Toughbook. Two months ago his enter key popped off and he went into an Apple store and they clicked on a new one for free, and they didn't give a shit he was out of warranty. Out of town on business, no money lost, no downtime. Two days ago he wanted to buy a second battery for Hurricane Irene and walked into the Apple store, bought one, and left. If he has a question or system trouble he can drive to an Apple store anywhere in the nation and get help from people who actually know computers.

But you're implying that Apple's PC's are superior to other PC's. Rather, the distinction is that Apple builds their own software and hardware for their OS. Everything is proprietary for them. Building a quality Windows or Linux machine isn't hard.

Descent, on 29 August 2011 - 09:02 AM, said:

The Apple ecosystem is far superior if you want stability. Aside from one kernel panic he has never had an issue in three years of ownership. No virus infections, no software hiccups, nothing. And he's a traveling businessman and needs shit working 100% of the time. This is the same reason my brother bought a MacBook for college, even though he builds gaming computers like I do. Unix, baby.

I rarely have issues with my Windows machine, but I'm experienced enough to fix just about anything, it's no bother to me because I know what I'm doing or I'm smart enough to RTFM. I think as far as college laptops go, you'd be much better off buying a Windows machine and switching it over to a variety of Linux.

Descent, on 29 August 2011 - 09:02 AM, said:

Speaking of Unix, Mac OS has a bash shell and XWindow support...It's a pretty gritty OS if you want it to be. By comparison, PC's still have the same shitty, underpowered, user friendly command line they've had since 1981. If you wanna talk CLI's Mac comes out on top...extremely powerful, with actual skill needed...why? It's fucking Unix based.

Why would they update it? Everything is pushing toward being easy. GUI's are where its at and people still can't even use them. I can't believe how many times people have asked me for help telling me something didn't work, and it came down to the fact they couldn't find 'File' or something like that.