[Mr. Tibbs]

Very true. I mean from a design sensibility, Arkane would make sense, but your right. They have no experience with ID Tech. Id obviously knows ID Tech 4, but Human Head's Id Tech uses an entirely different renderer, and is their own version of Radiant. Human Head have been working with Id Tech 4 since 2001. I have no idea how much legacy stuff is still in their version. One way or another I sure we'll see some stuff before too long. Bethesda would be foolish to can such a promising game.

[thatguy]

lazarus, on 28 November 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:

Thanks for the info Tibbs! Where did you hear about Arkane working on it? Prey 2 is made on idtech while Dishonored was made on Unreal, so Arkane doesn't have any significant idtech experience. I really wish Bethesda would say something. It's makes no sense to not say anything if they're working on it. At least post a screenshot or something to show people something new.

If you noticed, every game Arkane worked on was a different engine. Why would it be a problem if they are working on idtech if they never had a problem learning a new engine for each game?

[Kristian Joensen]

Plus id is their sister studio, so if there is anything they want to know about the engine, they can go straight to the source.

[lazarus]

As MrTibbs noted, Human Head has been home brewing their own version of idtech for years. It might be nothing more than a framework and name only. As for Arkane or id Software finishing Prey 2, it's possible. I don't think in one year though. Even if the game was almost done, there's still half a year or more of getting familiar with the code and art to make sure they can fix something when it breaks. The bigger question is, has Human Head given someone the source material for Prey 2 to finish the game? If they haven't then you can add another year or more of time needed to remake the game from scratch. I'm waiting for Bethesda to announce that it's been delayed until 2014 or apologizing for leading everyone on when they sacked it months ago. Have they cancelled any projects in recent years? Maybe it's bad press for them to cancel something people want. They want it to fade away instead?

[Mr. Tibbs]

Human Head Studios is currently hiring. They are looking for people with experience with open world games! http://humanhead.com/careers.html

Whether this is Prey 2 related or not, it's a good sign that the studios is in a healthy position. I can't imagine the turmoil of losing publisher support must cause an independent developer. Look forward to seeing what they've got cooking down the line.

I've messaged guys at Bethesda a few times and the only response I get is the standard "We're not currently talking about Prey 2."

http://thenexusnews....-prey-2/852724/ This article gives me hope that we might hear something positive soon.

[lazarus]

That's great to see they're hiring! I wonder what it's for? Finishing Prey 2? Maybe the description will suggest something?

I don't understand why Bethesda hasn't said anything positive about Prey 2. I'm trying to think of other games that are in uncertain states... the Last Guardian comes to mind. There must be other high profile ones. The disappointing situation is Prey 2 hadn't been announced long enough to start building up strong fansites. Without a strong fansite, there's no one-stop-place fans can go to voice their interest or concern.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Under the openings for Rendering Lead and Technology Programmer:

"This position will be responsible for contributing to our existing code base to continue to push the gaming envelope for our current AAA title in cooperation with a dedicated team of developers" and "Experience designing Open World Games."

But there also looking for a Senior Writer. It could be for overseeing the final push before moving on to another project or entirely new property. The rendering position makes me wonder though. In a number of interviews Human Head mentioned that Brian Karis and Paul MacArthur rewrote the Doom 3 renderer to enable it to pick up and blend lights in the environment. Maybe they want to implement similar tech in the Unreal Engine or finish up their radiant variant.

I guess the problem was after Prey 2 was unveiled the developers had to answer the same inane questions again and again. No portals, no gravity, no 3D Realms/ Radar Group, no Tommy (as the protagonist). So when they finally could focus on all the cool stuff i.e. being a open world shooter, fluid movement system with real physicality, tons of gadgets and weaponry, ambient quests, vertical levels and awesome, ugly aliens it dropped out of visibility. It's strange the series doesn't have it's own community considering it's storied history with Tom Hall, Paul Schuytema, Corrinne Yu, 3D Realms and Human Head Studios. The Bethesda forums get hundreds of hits every week even though there hasn't been any official word since April. People want the game.

[lazarus]

What I read on a different forum today

reply1

Wasn't Prey 2 canceled?

reply2

I thought Bethesda said it was still in development

reply3

how it went down was thus.

prey 2 was started at human head with 3DO still in charge and them looking for a seconed publisher (like they did with prey 1 with 2k) and then they sold off all the rights to bethesda, who took the human head contract as iss. Devolpment was going fine but bethesda (in an act that is shockingly similar to obsedian) demanded that they lower the cost of development, lower the % they receive per unit sold and basing the bigger chunk of the payout on the metacritic score (this is after bethesda asked if they would cut the % per unit completely and just take a huge bonus based on metacritic)

When human head said no, bethesda stopping paying them to try and force their hand (common of publishers in the early to mid 90's, but very much looked down upon since 99 and very VERY rarely done) and after bethesda missed 2 months of payments, the entire studio stopped work on the game, which pissed bethesda off even more. After they told them that if they dont get back to work and accept the new terms, their done with the project. When they said they wouldnt budge since bethesda accepted the contract as is when they started, it should stand. They where removed from the project. They then started shopping the game around to dev teams, but no one wants their contract (now 0% per unit, smaller budget (much smaller) and mediocre payout upon XX of metacritic score) so the game is in limbo.

The first dev that was going to take over was rebellion, but after being awarded the contract, they admitted they lied about the budget to get the contract and the plan was to negotiate for better funding and payout. they never received the code to the game nor did any work on it.

reply4

This is what bethesda wanted and why nothings happening

http://img84.imagesh...39/37392676.png

reply5

it actually had nothing to do with how the game was being made. they just wanted it to cost less and give the devs little to no money. Thats why fallout NV was the most profitable because not only did it break FO3's sales, none of the money went to obsidian.

They actually paid reviewers to LOWER the score so it wouldnt get above 85 as well as refused to QA it and give them the updated engine.

reply6

I heard that rumor. Talk about evil...

What I meant was zenimax wanted to force the developer to sell them their company. This is what they tried to do with splash damage. They successfully used that same tactic with arkane studios

reply7

its not rumors, its actually been proven. Zenimax likes doing shit like that. Hell, im willing to bet very few people on /v/ even know who OWNS zenimax (which is shocking, given who it is and how zenimax runs bethesda and everything else)

reply8

You can assume the board is chaulk full of sociopaths. Atlman, Brukhiemer, and Trump are obvious ones.

http://en.wikipedia....i/ZeniMax_Media

[Mr. Tibbs]

Ugh, that made for a sobering read. It sucks that Human Head are NDA'd up and can't address any of this without receiving a nasty lawsuit from ZeniMax. Why would you want to treat a developer like that? Human Head shouldn't have to sell their studio just to release a game.

Did Human Head have to sell their share of the Prey I.P. during some lean years? 3D Realms used to talk about how important it was for the developer and producers to co-own I.P. and share profits like they did with Remedy. After the Mark Echo project fell through, did Human Head have to sell their rights to Radar Group? I saw an interview with Scott Miller last year and he said that R.G. would still be credited in Prey 2. Regardless, I'm sure to enter into the publishing deal with Bethesda they would've had to sell their share anyway.

Giving development duties to a studio with a less-than-stellar record like Rebellion, especially after what happened when Rogue Warrior shifted from Zombie studios, is just begging for trouble.

Do you think the gaming press know about this but just don't want to step on Bethesda's toes? That would show a complete lack of integrity. Bethesda have put Human Head in a untenable position and then hurt their reputation by publicly claiming the title doesn't meet 'quality standards' and was the chief reason behind the delay. I hope Human Head is pursuing legal action.

I worry that Bethesda will just ignore the title and let it drift away from the public eye. They haven't committed to releasing the game.

[Micky C]

I think most gaming companies and individuals are smart enough to know that "not meeting quality standards" is almost always a cover up excuse. I mean, think about all the crap games that have been released, where did their quality standards go during production?

[lazarus]

I hadn't heard of the idea Head had partial rights to the Prey license. If that was the case, maybe it went away when Bethesda bought it? Maybe that co-owner stuff was wishful thinking after Prey 1 was already in production? I think Radar Group has partial rights or maybe some sort of contract stipulation around Prey 2 getting released. I wonder if the rights revert back to Radar Group if Prey 2 is officially cancelled? That could be why Bethesda hasn't announced it being cancelled yet.

What Mark Echo project are you talking about?

I don't think the press knows anything about this. People already laugh at Bethesda halting production based on quality reasons, so they suspect something else could be going on. If this got out to the public in an official capacity, it could hurt Bethesda. Zenimax wants to continue increasing their 'acquisition of talent' as the put it. If everyone knew how much they screw over developers, no one would want to work with them. I heard the end of Brink was made with Splash Damage paying out of pocket since Bethesda didn't want to pay. Lawyers were there during every meeting between them until the game contract was complete. Head might not be saying anything because they don't want to give Zenimax a reason to take them to court. You've seen how much Zenimax likes to pull out their army of lawyers to sue people. Remember that Mindcraft Scrolls conflict? Even that Interplay Fallout conflict?

I think you're right that Bethesda is trying to let this title slowly disappear. I don't think they'd ever let Head work on it again because it'd be admitting they did wrong and there's too many egos up in that hizzy to allow that to happen.

[Kathy]

lazarus, on 03 December 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

What I read on a different forum today

Which is probably lots of bullshit pulled out of the ass of a panda.

[Mr. Tibbs]

The Mark Echo project is from around early 2007. http://kotaku.com/23...signs-with-ecko

Here's a video he posted from a studio visit:

It could possibly explain the parkour and excellent movement system in Prey 2, although that would certainly be an oversimplification.

This is almost history repeating itself. Human Head had to work without a publishing agreement for 18 months after they fell out with Rockstar, who were going to publish the title in the early 2000's, and 3D Realms had to independently fund them until 2k picked them up.

http://web.archive.o...1150.56807.htm?

More details on page 9: http://pdf.textfiles...scapist_083.pdf

lazarus, I'm sure your right about the licence. 3DR/ Radar probably just presented it to the press and community in that fashion.
I remember Splash Damage being really unhappy about working with Bethesda and Obsidian mentioned that ludicrous metacritic royalities setup that caused a stir earlier this year. They do fantastic work like New Vegas and get screwed over as a reward. Awesome!

Bethesda would gain so much kudos if they put Human Head back on the game. It sucks because for every awesome thing they do like Dishonored, they have have a colossal stuff up like their handling of Prey 2, a game that given the series development history, you would go out of your way not to delay. In the spy column earlier this year in PC Gamer UK they mentioned that they absolutely were going to axe the game, but because of the Dutch press leaking it as a rumour ahead of time and the negative feedback they had to change their position almost a month later.

How great would've it been if they released both Dishonored and Prey 2 in 2012 as originally proposed. Instead they announced a folly of an MMO that not many people seem particularly excited about, troublesome Skyrim DLC and extremely delayed Rage DLC. What crazy mismanagement.

[lazarus]

It's funny how right after the Prey article was a story on Bethesda that included wrestling company power and taking people to court.

The Dutch leak was only a veiled threat to Head to finish the game or a game of chicken if you look at it as such. The other press release about halting production due to quality reasons was to publicly discredit Head as punishment for not working with them. Rune 2 had just been introduced and Head was likely seeking publishers.

Maybe a different reason Prey 2 hasn't been officially cancelled is because there's still too much interest in it. If enough people complained and asked why, it could reveal the real reasons. Zenimax would then be under a larger spotlight and risk exposing their past practices with other companies and how they bully developers. Remember inXile's Demon's Forge? Bethesda tried the same thing they did with Splash Damage and Arkane. They're very supportive throughout the project then as it nears completion they start to drag their feet, complain about features, and refuse to pay the team until these problems are resolved. They understand the developer needs to cut checks to the team so they offer them an external loan to help in this period. If this is done enough times, Zenimax steps in and demands company ownership as payment for the loans or risk being taken to court. The alternative is for the developer to quickly finish the game with internal funds to complete the contract. This is why Brink and Demon's Forge came out of the gate so poorly.

Dishonored is the only title outside of their Oblivion and Fallout RPG format that's been favorable. Diversifying their portfolio has been a complete train wreck. The Rage DLC is a complete surprise, but who's really going to buy that now?

[Kathy]

Failed MMORPG could put a dent in their ambitions.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Yeah, Rage DLC a year after the game shipped, I don't think many people will be picking it up. Even John Carmack expressed his disappointment with the decisions they've made this year. For upcoming games, excluding their RPG staple, they've got machinegames working on a Wolfenstein reboot, Shinji Mikami's survival horror game, Doom 4 and further down the line a Dishonored sequel. The last Wolfenstein tanked, right? It barely sold 200,000 across three platforms but that could be due to Activision and ID splitting with the Zenimax buyout.

I wonder how close Prey 2 was to being finished? They announced it March 2011 with work stopping in November how many months were left on the project? Surely it was meant to ship before Dishonored which was unveiled in July 2011 so that would put Prey 2's release around May or April 2012. If it was just a matter of months away from being on store shelves leaving it in limbo would be a wasted investment to Bethesda surely. They had to buy the I.P., pay for development for over two years, take it to trade shows, pay for an awesome Blur Studios trailer amoung other marketing materials just to halt production, possibly forever? Even though Zenimax isn't cash strapped, wouldn't that be leaving money on the table just to let it waste away?

The last Prey 2 interview I can find is from February and H.H. said there in the 'tuning' phase and doing tons of playtesting. http://www.egmnow.co...terview-prey-2/ He also mentions over 25 gadgets, not including over 40 upgrades, with some that encourage stealth gameplay, Tommy's ability to spirit walk being integral to the story, Guns are class based with no weapons from Prey 1 returning, they have there own version of megatextures, a Jason Graves and Mark Morgan soundtrack and different Exodus environments (some taking place during day time). Sounds like there was tons we hadn't seen yet.

Here's some pretty neat off-screen gameplay:

[lazarus]

I suspected Machinegames was doing Wolfenstein. Were you able to confirm that from some official source yet?

When big games are announced, it's usually a year or so into development. In this way, screenshots of some substance are available. If not, all you're left with is some concept art. Screenshots for Prey 2 appeared pretty quick after it was announced. PR is pretty much the Marketing dept and marketing aren't comfortable backing anything unless they can see it in action to confirm it's worth the time and money to promote it. With all of that in mind, you can assume Prey 2 was in some functional or playable state for at least a year before it was announced. It would take a year to figure out what's the best game balance, test some theories, and build up more content variety.

I'm pretty sure they said several times it was going to be released at the end of 2011 or the beginning of 2012, months before Dishonored. Zenimax definitely pumped some money into it. The game development by itself probably wasn't outlandish. Head is a midwest company, not a big city or coastal developer, and a small company at that. That airplane teaser and Blur's trailer must have cost a lot. With every day that passes, I think more and more Zinemax is run by a bunch of stubborn assholes who would rather see a project crash and burn before admitting they did something wrong.

I read somewhere what we saw at E3 was only 1 of 3 cities to explore. This would mean those other two cities must have been nearing completion as well. I wish some bitter gametester at Bethesda would release some screenshots. That Doom 4 leak was great to see.

[Mr. Tibbs]

lazarus, on 05 December 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

I read somewhere what we saw at E3 was only 1 of 3 cities to explore. This would mean those other two cities must have been nearing completion as well. I wish some bitter gametester at Bethesda would release some screenshots. That Doom 4 leak was great to see.

There was supposedly a closed beta late last year. http://www.dsogaming...-pc-beta-phase/

"According to Steam’s records, Prey 2 appeared on Valve’s digital distribution records on December 17, 2011 in “ValveTestApp72790 Beta” subscription with subscription code “P2Beta”. This could very well mean that Bethesda ran a closed/internal beta phase for this cancelled game. That, or Zenimax was ready to launch the game’s beta phase before it got put on hold."

If there was a leak it would get people talking again especially if it was content we hadn't seen before. I think that H.H. mentioned that Exodus is a tiled-locked planet (not sure if that's the correct term) meaning it doesn't revolve around the sun. So we've had a glimpse of the dusky Bowery and there must be others. George Broussard mentioned in an interview last year, a journalist trying to bait him into slagging off the series new direction, that he had talked to some playtesters at Bethesda who said the hype is 'real on this one,' and it was going to be 'awesome.' He didn't say that about DNF! Leaked video or screens would hit every major gaming site especially since, aside from VGA announcements, Thief 4 etc... the only stories in December and January tend to be year in review and most anticipated 2013 games kind of stuff. People would be talking again.

With Wolfenstein there was a trademark filing and some other mentions online that I can't find at the moment.. But it seems in keeping with them taking over a 'legendary porperty' or whatever Bethesda said at Quakecon.

I wonder if Human Head are working on Rune 2. That could be awesome. I played through Rune Classic when they released the game on steam and it' still pretty ace. One of the best third person camera systems I've seen on a pc game. Drinking mead, severing limbs in HD would be awesome. Rob Howard, a level designer at HH, tweeted there hiring with "more stuff to come soon. Workin' on cool stuff here :-)"

[Kathy]

Mr. Tibbs, on 05 December 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

If it was just a matter of months away from being on store shelves leaving it in limbo would be a wasted investment to Bethesda surely. They had to buy the I.P., pay for development for over two years, take it to trade shows, pay for an awesome Blur Studios trailer amoung other marketing materials just to halt production, possibly forever? Even though Zenimax isn't cash strapped, wouldn't that be leaving money on the table just to let it waste away?

The last push to retail with marketing and stuff would have cost quite a lot. Even if they wasted of lot of money before it is still a viable option to cancel everything, thus not to waste even more.

Mr. Tibbs, on 05 December 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

George Broussard mentioned in an interview last year, a journalist trying to bait him into slagging off the series new direction, that he had talked to some playtesters at Bethesda who said the hype is 'real on this one,' and it was going to be 'awesome.' He didn't say that about DNF!

Others did. And I wouldn't listen to GB's opinion about games anyway.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Burnett, on 05 December 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

Others did. And I wouldn't listen to GB's opinion about games anyway.

While that's true, I still think Duke has tons of potential. Every interesting franchise is just one good game away from a comeback.

GB will always be a legend to me. He was a huge part of what made Duke 3D fun, and DNF at the turn of the century... I don't think I've ever wanted another game more. He personally paid for development out of his own pocket, hired a ton of top notch talent (Riegel, Cozzens, Wieder, Isscas, Faison, Anderson among so many others) and although the project came off the rails it still has a peculiar quality to it. Obviously it's not in the same ballpark as 3D but DNF has some inspired content. Duke Burger is very clever, your always doing something new or using your tools in a new way and it's goofy fun. He made some mistakes but he also worked hard for twelve years and has been treated like shit for it.

I know what your saying but leaving Prey 2 on the ice when in the past you've put up the cash to finish Wet, Hunted, Rogue Warrior and Brink makes you really question Bethesda's motivations.

[Kathy]

Mr. Tibbs, on 05 December 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

He made some mistakes but he also worked hard for twelve years and has been treated like shit for it.

Yeah, being the shittiest project lead was probably really hard. I don't care how hard he tried, when he lost(or never had) his ability at doing job proper. Only when they hired Brian Hook who said "No" to George's stupid ideas 3dRealms had a chance at releasing something. But they still hadn't.

Quote

I know what your saying but leaving Prey 2 on the ice when in the past you've put up the cash to finish Wet, Hunted, Rogue Warrior and Brink makes you really question Bethesda's motivations.

They've learned from their previous mistakes then.

[Inspector Lagomorf]

Mr. Tibbs, on 05 December 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

Every interesting franchise is just one good game away from a comeback.

Forget interesting - any franchise is one good game away from a comeback. BUT THAT GOOD GAME HAS TO BE MADE FIRST!!!

[Mr. Tibbs]

Whoops! Maybe I shouldn't have used George as an example but the game was certainly a "game of show caliber" title when it appeared at Pax and E3 last year. I didn't hear any negative reactions apart from the typical droll, badass-types who are never impressed.

With Human Head working on an open-world Rune, maybe we'll get some Prey 2 action in a Norse setting. I just really want a bounty hunting game. It looked like it took parts from STALKER, Far Cry, Mirror's Edge with some Anachronox sleaze. What other awesome single player shooters are coming out next year? Bioshock Infinite will probably be pretty cool, Metro, hopefully Aliens? I can't think of many, so one more interesting game surely wouldn't hurt.

[lazarus]

Mr. Tibbs, on 06 December 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

With Human Head working on an open-world Rune, maybe we'll get some Prey 2 action in a Norse setting. I just really want a bounty hunting game. It looked like it took parts from STALKER, Far Cry, Mirror's Edge with some Anachronox sleaze. What other awesome single player shooters are coming out next year? Bioshock Infinite will probably be pretty cool, Metro, hopefully Aliens? I can't think of many, so one more interesting game surely wouldn't hurt.

All I read was 'mystery' game in their job ops so I didn't interpret a Rune game from that.

Also, you know that Head helped Irrational finish Bioshock Infinite, right?

[Kathy]

They could have helped with multiplayer part which was dropped anyway.

[lazarus]

Burnett, on 07 December 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

They could have helped with multiplayer part which was dropped anyway.

That and regular singeplayer. Here's one of their resumes listing AI programming
http://www.jasoneldr...sign/Resume.doc

[t800]

Mr. Tibbs, on 06 December 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

With Human Head working on an open-world Rune, maybe we'll get some Prey 2 action in a Norse setting.

Is it really true? Do you have any source of information for this statement? I hope is it just fabrication.

Because if it is true, then it can mean that game is going to be either TES-styled RPG or MMORPG.
And I dont know what is worse for me in this case. One way or another it is too big and major departure from original Rune.
I like TES games, RPG elements just dont fit well with Rune. I like the original one for its atmosphere and on surface simple but in its core very complex hack-n-slash gameplay.
I dont want to level up, complete quests, collect loot and compete with others in who have the best sword and armor. I like it for its entertaining simplicity.
If I want to experience complex RPG gameplay I play some TES game.

And dont get me started on MMORPGs!

[Mr. Tibbs]

It was from all their Rune talk earlier this year and some leaked resumes but it could be referring to an unannounced project or Bioshock Infinite. Is Bioshock Infinite an openworld game? It looked pretty directed to me, with a few extra explorable areas along your path. Still don't have many concrete details about that game yet. A Norse mystery would be ace but this could be a totally new project.

They did help with multiplayer along with digital extremes before it was cut and they had been working on a similarly ambitious single player game so they would be a great fit to help out with the campaign.

[lazarus]

Bioshock isn't an open world game. That's only a side note to where the team probably ended up working while this new project they're posting jobs started. We've only heard about Rune stuff so far making it possible this is a Rune game. The "mystery" requirements for the writing job doesn't make sense for Rune though. Why not a "norse mythology" or "head bludgeoning" requirement if it was for a Rune game?

[Mr. Tibbs]

Yeah, Bioshock, although surely a prestige project, was most likely a way to keep some cash coming into the studio to avoid layoffs while the remaining team built prototypes for future pitches. I just thought because they own the Rune I.P. why would they leave it dormant? Human Head don't seem afraid of radical reinvention. Prey was a creative linear shooter with puzzle elements with a blue collar atmosphere, Prey 2 was an open-world shooter with unique mechanics, a different protagonist taking place in a alien world. HH have a fleshed out universe that they could take in interesting directions. They also posted concept art on there Rune Facebook page earlier this year. http://www.facebook.com/RuneGame

Are they big enough to be working on two projects? Maybe something else got picked up. An open-world, third person mystery game sounds pretty cool!

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