[Master Fibbles]

The people involved discussed, prayed, argued, shouted at each other, cited things (that we don't have anymore), and prayed some more. That is how most Christian churches decide on things. However, there are certainly groups that just kind pull stuff out of their ass or say shit like "well, I feel like..." and then never have anything to support their claim. I am doing Biblical studies because I like to support my arguments with texts and such rather than just "Well, I believe that God is calling me to..." Hitler probably felt that God was calling him to kill 12 million people in death camps and create a master race. (*and that is my actual argument against a lot of new age Christian crap)

The separation of Church and State is to prevent religious persecution and genocide. America is originally refugees from religious persecution. Often Americans forget this (for convenience, obviously).
The real problem is Manifest Destiny and people who actually believe that America was founded as the new Israel. There are people who actually believe that George Washington was some messianic figure or something. The guy was a terrorist and dictator if you look at it from a different perspective. There are people who believe that there is some destiny for America involving the end of the world...I just think we will cause it with nuclear weapons.
The people who believe in Manifest Destiny and such are, sadly, a loud contingency in several states that have a lot of electoral votes. This means that the Christian Right has power in politics through televangelists etc. They prey on people's fear of death and concern for salvation in order to brainwash them to vote for one thing or another. Their twisted belief and total misunderstanding of (eg) the book of Revelation is destroying America.


So, yeah, theocracy will never work. People should have the right to believe whatever they want (or not believe anything). They should also be open to arguments against them and accepting of those who don't agree with them. In the end, people should just agree to disagree and find out who was right after they die.

[Shawneth]

I agree with this, but the world will never end with nuclear weapons, I really don't have an arguement but the world will never end from war, just not possible. We have been at war from first man, why would we worry about the world ending from war now? But the worst belief ever made would be to create fear to believe. That includes the 2012, that is just sad that people would create fear for no reason. The instution for human contiunity is a perfect example of stealing money because of fear build up. Obviously nothing will happen, for thousands of years nothing has harmed us, that includes Y2K and the 1950 nuclar scare. Nothing happend but for some reason, some stupid reason, people like believe in this crap. I hate to disagree with the Christian church, but since you backed it up good, I won't argue with it, because I am Catholic .

[Master Fibbles]

Evangelical Christians will burn in an eternal fire soaked with their own spiritual pride and arrogance. I once heard Jack Van Impe say that the EU was the anti-christ. I am pretty sure Pat Robertson said the same about Obama. Jerry Fallwell said that 9/11 was punishment for homosexuality. These people are nuts and haven't actually read the book they worship.

I can say all this because I'm well educated. 8 years of Jesuit education does the mind good...not sure what it does to the soul though.


Also:
"The world is very different now, for man holds in his mortal hands the power to abolish all forms of human poverty and all forms of human life"
- John F. Kennedy

[CruX]

Mr.Flibble, on Jul 19 2010, 11:02 AM, said:

I am pretty sure Pat Robertson said the same about Obama.

Can't confirm that myself, but I do remember shortly after Obama got elected, some other whackjob was praying to God in the hopes that he/she would give Obama a brain tumor, so he would die in the same fashion as Ted Kennedy. Too bad I can't find the link to that article and all its unintentional hilarity.

[Master Fibbles]

I know I have heard that Obama was the anti-christ...of course I also heard that Benedict XVI was the anti-christ. Hell, I might be the anti-christ if I work hard enough at it. I think I will set that as a personal goal: be called the anti-christ by a televangelist.

[Kathy]

oporix, on Jul 19 2010, 09:00 PM, said:

I agree with this, but the world will never end with nuclear weapons, I really don't have an arguement but the world will never end from war, just not possible. We have been at war from first man, why would we worry about the world ending from war now? But the worst belief ever made would be to create fear to believe. That includes the 2012, that is just sad that people would create fear for no reason. The instution for human contiunity is a perfect example of stealing money because of fear build up.

You've answered your question yourself. Money. Some scare cause then they'll have more customers in their church.

[Shawneth]

"Lordy, lordy! Let us be graceful for our Earth that we live in! Remeber that Christmas is all 'bout the givin'!" The bold shows the truth behind scam of religion, but I don't want to fight this, because I believe that God exists somewhere, because it is the only logical explanation behind the first thing ecer existing of everything. If there is nothing before time decides a fuckin' ball that explodes into everything that we know of, what is that all about? At least God shows that something is behind it. I hate scientist that go against religion.

[Master Fibbles]

I had an argument with a guy who insists that logic and pure philosophy can explain everything and that faith or hope or emotions are all false. I told him the only difference between a believer in God and a non believer in God is the feeling that there is a purpose to it all. If there is no purpose, there is no God because there is no proof of the existence of God. If, however, you feel that there is a purpose to it all (and this is something you can't prove or disprove) then there is a God.

He didn't agree with me insisting that he had clear and distinct knowledge of the existence of God based on math and philosophy...fucking Descartes was wrong about most everything he said and his philosophy pretty much ruined the world as we know it. But this guy is so lost in his head that he can't even see that and insists that Descartes was right about everything and actually believed in a God (and the Christian religion).
/end rant

[Kathy]

oporix, on Jul 20 2010, 05:19 AM, said:

I don't want to fight this, because I believe that God exists somewhere, because it is the only logical explanation behind the first thing ecer existing of everything. If there is nothing before time decides a fuckin' ball that explodes into everything that we know of, what is that all about? At least God shows that something is behind it.

Great. How the hell god is the only logical explanation? It could have been gods or whatever. And by saying "God" you're referring, I assume, to Christian/Judaic "God". Well, that's just bullshit. You can't say that it is the only logical explanation.

About scientists. I think they are saying about this a hypothesis, not a fact.

Either way, saying that god(s) exist because something should have created everything is not a proof(whether it was Jesus or Odin or Zeus).

Mr.Flibble, on Jul 20 2010, 05:42 AM, said:

I told him the only difference between a believer in God and a non believer in God is the feeling that there is a purpose to it all. If there is no purpose, there is no God because there is no proof of the existence of God. If, however, you feel that there is a purpose to it all (and this is something you can't prove or disprove) then there is a God.

Not exactly. You can believe in resurrection or reincarnation without god. Or you can believe in some purpose in life without it either. For example, some want to be remembered after they die. That's their purpose.

[Master Fibbles]

Touche. However, you have to agree that without purpose, you don't need a god. The world can exist without purpose...I just don't believe that it does.


Also, the idea of purpose and God being the only explanation comes from Aristotle...Metaphysics, bk (13 I think).

[Kathy]

Mr.Flibble, on Jul 20 2010, 06:09 AM, said:

Touche. However, you have to agree that without purpose, you don't need a god.

Yep. Religion does provide an ultimate purpose of living. There is no purpose in religion if it doesn't provide one in life. I mean, who's gonna follow it?

Quote

The world can exist without purpose...I just don't believe that it does.

The world as in what? Universe or Earth?

Quote

Also, the idea of purpose and God being the only explanation comes from Aristotle...Metaphysics, bk 13.

I remember about Thomas Aquinas. His proof of existence is amusing.

[ReaperMan]

I find religion topics boring, so lets talk about this!

http://abcnews.go.com/International/video/...-probe-11172511

[Master Fibbles]

Lotan, on Jul 19 2010, 09:22 PM, said:

I remember about Thomas Aquinas. His proof of existence is amusing.

Aquinas ripped at least one of his from Aristotle. The causality proof is from Aristotle. If the world (universe, whatever) is a series of causes, there must be a first cause.

ReaperMan, on Jul 19 2010, 09:45 PM, said:

I find religion topics boring, so lets talk about this!

http://abcnews.go.com/International/video/...-probe-11172511

Meh. Probably nothing. Does it matter? Until I meet an ET, I don't care. The closest star system to our own is 4ly away. I don't even think that one has any planets in it...the odds of extraterrestrial contact are astronomically against finding anything worthwhile. I'm still not sure what we are looking for.

[Kathy]

Mr.Flibble, on Jul 20 2010, 07:03 AM, said:

Meh. Probably nothing. Does it matter? Until I meet an ET, I don't care. The closest star system to our own is 4ly away. I don't even think that one has any planets in it... the odds of extraterrestrial contact are astronomically against finding anything worthwhile. I'm still not sure what we are looking for.

Pretty much.

Still, there is an extraterrestial life. I just can't see our planet being the only one in the entire universe.

[Master Fibbles]

Oh, it wouldn't surprise me that there is some other planet out there with what we would classify as life. Whether or not that said life is intelligent is debatable. Still, the vastness of the universe and our understanding of physics very much limits the chances of ever meeting a being from another planet. The speed limit is 3e8 m/s and even if we could go that fast, we are talking years, centuries, millenia of travel between systems without some wormhole. Such wormholes would have to be built and stabilized...which would require them to travel there in the first place by conventional means.
Have you ever noticed that the nonearth species in sci-fi movies/shows all have extended life periods? Especially the ones who build the means to travel (I'm talking about Mass Effect and Stargate here, btw). They need those longer lives in order to have built them in the first place.

Also:

[Kathy]

I wish we were elves...

P.S. Hell, talk about religion, it seems, has something to do with religious ads at the bottom of this page.

[Master Fibbles]

Philosophy Online: Earn a Philosophy degree online...

Yeah..

[Shawneth]

Sorry, Lotan, I didn't mean to say logical, I meant something more "likely" in my mind as Mr.Flibbles said, all I hope is that when I die, I don't just disapear.

[Kathy]

Logical or likely, that wouldn't really change my answer.

[CruX]

oporix, on Jul 20 2010, 09:02 AM, said:

I meant something more "likely" in my mind

At the risk of sounding like a dick, I don't quite see how flaming bushes that are capable of intelligent speech could possibly be more "likely", let alone logical. I mean, if you believe it and it makes you a better person, more power to you. I won't knock it, I just don't get the rationale behind what you're saying.

[Master Fibbles]

Flaming bush aside (that sounds like a sexual position or something worse), the idea of a creator or intelligent design is what is "likely" or logical to people.

[CruX]

Why, though? Why is a doctrine that asserts that, and many more things like that, the more logical alternative? I haven't considered myself a Christian in over five years, so I've probably fallen out of touch with the mindset, here. Enlighten me.

[Kathy]

Mr.Flibble, on Jul 20 2010, 09:52 PM, said:

Flaming bush aside (that sounds like a sexual position or something worse), the idea of a creator or intelligent design is what is "likely" or logical to people.

About "intelligent design", btw. http://www.youtube.c...h?v=FNiTsYCkyI8


Another topic:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=wbxEdnDrIk0
HOLY SHIT!!!

[Inspector Lagomorf]

Until scientists find a way to explain the creation of the universe, and whether or not there was something before this particular universe existed, intelligent design seems like a logical possibility - not in the sense of a Christian-Judeo God, but more in the fact that someone or something must have created what we now know as "existence". Having seen The Matrix recently, the ideas displayed within it may not be far from the truth. For instance, take a hypothetical computer program A. Before that program exists, there is a void, or a free space, where that program may be placed. Correlate the installation of this program with the beginning of life in the universe as we know it. It's easier to imagine if the program is - say - The Sims or SimLife. Perhaps we are all Sims. Who's to say that our very lives are not being influenced by some extrauniversal super computer?

I know, it's a stretch, but it's a funny idea to toss around.

[Kathy]

You're still applying your own human mind and logic to 'solving' this mystery. Look at the animals. They are clueless. Why do you think we're that different from them? We just simply don't know. And applying some mythological understanding just confuse it even more.

[Master Fibbles]

Lotan, on Jul 20 2010, 01:23 PM, said:

About "intelligent design", btw. http://www.youtube.c...h?v=FNiTsYCkyI8

I think he missed the point about the vastness of the universe...Yes, humans will die instantly throughout the universe...but then why does life exist on this planet? The Earth met the perfect infinitesimally improbably conditions necessary to sustain life long enough for it to become intelligent or self aware. Things aren't simple which he does a great job of showing. He misses the point of the complexity of the universe. At least he says that "the universe was not made for us" which I can agree with but he has a totally skewed perspective on it. The universe is beyond human comprehension. That is the actual point behind intelligent design.
The real question is:
The Big Bang has been pretty much proven. Only moronic Bible Thumpers will try to deny it. However, how did the Big Bang happen? That is, what caused it? That is a modernized Aristotelian proof of "the god": There has to be a cause of the Big Bang because nothing happens without first there being a cause for it. In order for there to be a "beginning" there has to be a "first cause" that exists outside of causality. That is, an entity that is perpetually causing things. It must be eternal, incorporeal, and "actual" (for lack of a good English non philosophical word).

@EmericaSkater
People want purpose. Religion gives them purpose. Of course, so does college football.
In regards to logic and such, I think the above comments make an attempt that it. I mean, if you want to live your life as if it is all you got, go for it. Pascal's Wager aside, that is up to you. I'm not going to tell you what to believe. My belief is that if you are open to the possibility that you could be wrong, it won't end badly for you.

[Inspector Lagomorf]

Lotan, on Jul 20 2010, 02:49 PM, said:

You're still applying your own human mind and logic to 'solving' this mystery. Look at the animals. They are clueless. Why do you think we're that different from them? We just simply don't know. And applying some mythological understanding just confuse it even more.

The human mind and logic I'm using is the same human mind and logic that scientists have been using to prove modern-day theories. The only thing that differs is how the information we receive is interpreted. That said, how our brains perceive the world around us may not actually be what the world really looks like.

[CruX]

Mr.Flibble, on Jul 20 2010, 11:50 AM, said:

@EmericaSkater
People want purpose. Religion gives them purpose. Of course, so does college football.
In regards to logic and such, I think the above comments make an attempt that it. I mean, if you want to live your life as if it is all you got, go for it. Pascal's Wager aside, that is up to you. I'm not going to tell you what to believe. My belief is that if you are open to the possibility that you could be wrong, it won't end badly for you.

I think that's a possibility everyone ought to at least be open to. I have absolutely no qualms admitting that I don't know how this universe came to be, I just don't feel I need to pay lip-service to any kind of established religion or metaphysical psuedo-scientific fluff (I.D) to reconcile myself with the fact that I don't know, and trying to be loyal to such a doctrine or half-baked theory gets to be burdensome as mankind learns more and more about the world around him.


Also, the entire idea of being religious because I have nothing to gain from being skeptical (Pascal's wager, right?) isn't really something I resonate with. If I really, genuinely don't believe the god I'm pretending to worship exists, but he actually does and he's omnipotent (as most gods are), he's going to know I'm bluffing. Might not end well.

[Master Fibbles]

Jerry Fallwell once said that if when he got to heaven God told him that he was wrong, he would not think that it was God he was talking to. Jerry Fallwell may be in hell for that and that alone. That is my belief. He rejected the possibility that he was wrong even if God Himself told him.
You make a good point about lip-service and there are passages in the Bible that talk about lip-service (I can't be bothered to look them up, what am I? A Baptist minister?!) However, a sincere desire and belief is different than lip-service built around fear of condemnation. I can't stand people who say that you have to believe this that or the other thing to get to heaven. How do you know? You don't! But if you desire to please God, isn't that pleasing to God? Augustine makes a point about that in "On the Happy Life."


Also, the ads are getting really interesting now. What happened when we were talking about sex and penises?

[Kathy]

The Mighty Bison, on Jul 21 2010, 12:04 AM, said:

The human mind and logic I'm using is the same human mind and logic that scientists have been using to prove modern-day theories. The only thing that differs is how the information we receive is interpreted.

The only thing that differs is that they've actually proved something. Saying that "how could the universe started without god? Therefore he is." is grasping in the dark without any proof. Some people just can't cope with being in the unknown about it. They need explanations. And they'll eat up everything just to have the "knowledge".

EmericaSkater, on Jul 21 2010, 01:55 AM, said:

Also, the entire idea of being religious because I have nothing to gain from being skeptical (Pascal's wager, right?) isn't really something I resonate with. If I really, genuinely don't believe the god I'm pretending to worship exists, but he actually does and he's omnipotent (as most gods are), he's going to know I'm bluffing. Might not end well.

That's interesting. If I began to go to church and did all the necessary ceremonies, it still wouldn't change my heart. It's like trying hard to love someone. You can't just decide to believe. Of course, then it can be said that your soul is not opening up to god or whatever...