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DNF #1
Duke 3D #1
https://www.moddb.co...3d/addons/7ghub
[RELEASE] 7G HUB
#2 Posted 02 December 2025 - 08:41 AM
Cool map. Took me 51 minutes. The beginning is rather tough as you're almost exclusively relying on the Shotgun, but there is enough ammo and cover to not get too frustrating.
I appreciate the trollish sense of humor this level has. Artstyle reminds me a bit of ck3d's speed maps, with a creative use of textures and sprites.
Could've use a little less Pig Cops at the beginning, but I think the repetition was intentional anyway.
I appreciate the trollish sense of humor this level has. Artstyle reminds me a bit of ck3d's speed maps, with a creative use of textures and sprites.
Could've use a little less Pig Cops at the beginning, but I think the repetition was intentional anyway.
#3 Posted 02 December 2025 - 09:44 AM
Dr.Panico, on 02 December 2025 - 08:41 AM, said:
Cool map. Took me 51 minutes. The beginning is rather tough as you're almost exclusively relying on the Shotgun, but there is enough ammo and cover to not get too frustrating.
I appreciate the trollish sense of humor this level has. Artstyle reminds me a bit of ck3d's speed maps, with a creative use of textures and sprites.
Could've use a little less Pig Cops at the beginning, but I think the repetition was intentional anyway.
I appreciate the trollish sense of humor this level has. Artstyle reminds me a bit of ck3d's speed maps, with a creative use of textures and sprites.
Could've use a little less Pig Cops at the beginning, but I think the repetition was intentional anyway.
Thanks Dr. Panico!
Yes, the beginning can be tough for inexperienced players but as you stated: there is plenty of ammo (health too I hope) and cover, and it doesn't take too long to get other weapons - at least if you're looking for them since some areas are purely optional. You're also right about the Pig Cop issue, should've been more variety but whatever.
Thanks for your feedback!
#4 Posted 04 December 2025 - 03:02 PM
Took me 61 minutes on CGS, got all kills, found only one secret (I'm notoriously bad at those).
Interesting map - I am guessing the author's first? Felt like a direct throwback to the early 00's in terms of mapping trends with the tentacular successions of flat rooms that loop around then back, the colors everywhere (reminded me of Taivo Maripuu's maps), but also all the naive game language mistakes (non-explodable cracks, non-pressable buttons, decorative doors, fake fire extinguishers/lightswitches...). Unfortunately this has to be one of the first things I mention because whilst the visual direction shows potential everywhere and even looks great in parts, hinting at premises of a cool style, the flow of the progression takes a major hit from all the 'garbage' signals the level bombards the player with - and here it's especially bad considering how the guns are distributed (supplies are rare so most every crack or fire extinguisher is a save and reload), and the rooms full of monsters and switches that seem important but eventually 95% of the time do nothing (which really sucks to find out mid battle). What's worse is there are enough switches and explodables that do work to have the player keep second guessing. I think it would do your mapping a great service if/when you learn to separate in your mind the game objects that are fine to use for detail because the base game never established them as functional, and the ones that really are 'gameplay signifiers' and come with how the player will read them as an implied interaction of a certain type unless explicitly told otherwise (which you can do in the map itself). To be fair, there were some elements of language I appreciated that you incorporated on your own, for instance there were many side hallways/cul-de-sacs that terminated with a decorative door with a "wrong way" sign on it, I don't remember if it was always respected but it was common enough for me to know that in such a position I effectively was at a dead-end in the level and shouldn't try passing the wall.
Don't get me wrong though - still had plenty of fun. The firefights were right up my alley with all the mean angles, I didn't mind the abundance of Pigcops or even Newbeasts, transparent/shadow Sentry Drone always is a fun idea (no irony), the turrets are an enemy I usually like too but here I must admit they pissed me off not in themselves but because I think something the map does is keep pistol and chaingun away from the player until they are about 95% done with it, but the pistol is one of the most accurate weapons to use on the turret's broken hitbox, so being stuck with a shotgun against them was 150% more frustrating than usual. One way to make up for that would have been to provide the player with Expander ammo since it also is accurate, and the Shrinker (gun) is found early in the level here, but I don't think I ever ran into some. Of course I wonder if finding more secrets wouldn't have helped me break away from this restrictive pattern, or if they would have made little difference. I did appreciate the Freezer being featured, although I wouldn't have minded some more ammo for it, it did help greatly against some of the later Battlelords. I didn't really like the gameplay being so shotgun-focused too, bold choice but at the same time the most generic gun in the game (although satisfying to use obviously) and so it felt a bit like the gameplay just barely missed a few extra dimensions it could have reached. For instance, equal/extra focus on the Freezer (again) would have ruled because the map design is full of angles.
Enemy choice itself was cool in general, with only a few encounters feeling like they had too many types crammed within (thus feeling spammy) or uninspired in comparison to most others. Getting to enter a room shrunk and find a safe spot where to grow back to full Duke was awesome, gives the player some time to strategize before exposing themselves and activating the enemies. Speaking of shoehorning, the train also felt a bit forced (plus it's easy to just get around it and walk across the super short track) but I liked that it just existed, also with a funny license plate for some reason. Too bad it didn't serve a better purpose, e.g.. connect back to the other train-themed area where the platform there is just blocked.
Maybe only the last 5% of the map started feeling redundant and tiresome after the player leaves the main hub, as once you've escaped now it feels like the author just kept making stretches of rooms until they ran out of all the walls (but whenever you catch yourself feeling like you're doing that, you should just end the level and save the leftover energy for a fresh one). But the whole hub itself and its layout is pretty cool.
Tantalus' Devastator with the dog looking at you was funny, part of me was hoping I would be able to get the dog to fetch the gun for me somehow (conveyor belt, two-way train...).
There is a possible softlock with the 3D printer if you get inside the sector as it lowers, or even use it once then nudge yourself inside of there and then shoot the button again - probably should use MASTERSWITCH instead of ACTIVATOR there.
Some Duke Talk quips seemed to repeat twice or even more, unfortunately I can't remember exactly which lines they were but one ("... Terminated."), but there were several - should check your sectors for accidental twin tags. In general I think the map could use better ambient sound work at all; I don't recall many being used throughout that didn't naturally emit from an in-game source, when you really shouldn't hesitate to use more MSFX's to boost atmosphere (unless the quietness is intentional, but here they just seemed forgotten about).
Mention about preserving the mirror isn't necessary as broken mirror still reflects shrink ray (not to mention you can use pal 4 on a mirror to make it impossible to break).
Oh yeah, I also shot all the ducks I could see around the level and I'm not sure if that unlocked or could unlock anything or if they were just decorative sprites (again).
Congrats on the release and thanks for sharing, had a good time.
Some design bits and moments I liked:
Interesting map - I am guessing the author's first? Felt like a direct throwback to the early 00's in terms of mapping trends with the tentacular successions of flat rooms that loop around then back, the colors everywhere (reminded me of Taivo Maripuu's maps), but also all the naive game language mistakes (non-explodable cracks, non-pressable buttons, decorative doors, fake fire extinguishers/lightswitches...). Unfortunately this has to be one of the first things I mention because whilst the visual direction shows potential everywhere and even looks great in parts, hinting at premises of a cool style, the flow of the progression takes a major hit from all the 'garbage' signals the level bombards the player with - and here it's especially bad considering how the guns are distributed (supplies are rare so most every crack or fire extinguisher is a save and reload), and the rooms full of monsters and switches that seem important but eventually 95% of the time do nothing (which really sucks to find out mid battle). What's worse is there are enough switches and explodables that do work to have the player keep second guessing. I think it would do your mapping a great service if/when you learn to separate in your mind the game objects that are fine to use for detail because the base game never established them as functional, and the ones that really are 'gameplay signifiers' and come with how the player will read them as an implied interaction of a certain type unless explicitly told otherwise (which you can do in the map itself). To be fair, there were some elements of language I appreciated that you incorporated on your own, for instance there were many side hallways/cul-de-sacs that terminated with a decorative door with a "wrong way" sign on it, I don't remember if it was always respected but it was common enough for me to know that in such a position I effectively was at a dead-end in the level and shouldn't try passing the wall.
Don't get me wrong though - still had plenty of fun. The firefights were right up my alley with all the mean angles, I didn't mind the abundance of Pigcops or even Newbeasts, transparent/shadow Sentry Drone always is a fun idea (no irony), the turrets are an enemy I usually like too but here I must admit they pissed me off not in themselves but because I think something the map does is keep pistol and chaingun away from the player until they are about 95% done with it, but the pistol is one of the most accurate weapons to use on the turret's broken hitbox, so being stuck with a shotgun against them was 150% more frustrating than usual. One way to make up for that would have been to provide the player with Expander ammo since it also is accurate, and the Shrinker (gun) is found early in the level here, but I don't think I ever ran into some. Of course I wonder if finding more secrets wouldn't have helped me break away from this restrictive pattern, or if they would have made little difference. I did appreciate the Freezer being featured, although I wouldn't have minded some more ammo for it, it did help greatly against some of the later Battlelords. I didn't really like the gameplay being so shotgun-focused too, bold choice but at the same time the most generic gun in the game (although satisfying to use obviously) and so it felt a bit like the gameplay just barely missed a few extra dimensions it could have reached. For instance, equal/extra focus on the Freezer (again) would have ruled because the map design is full of angles.
Enemy choice itself was cool in general, with only a few encounters feeling like they had too many types crammed within (thus feeling spammy) or uninspired in comparison to most others. Getting to enter a room shrunk and find a safe spot where to grow back to full Duke was awesome, gives the player some time to strategize before exposing themselves and activating the enemies. Speaking of shoehorning, the train also felt a bit forced (plus it's easy to just get around it and walk across the super short track) but I liked that it just existed, also with a funny license plate for some reason. Too bad it didn't serve a better purpose, e.g.. connect back to the other train-themed area where the platform there is just blocked.
Maybe only the last 5% of the map started feeling redundant and tiresome after the player leaves the main hub, as once you've escaped now it feels like the author just kept making stretches of rooms until they ran out of all the walls (but whenever you catch yourself feeling like you're doing that, you should just end the level and save the leftover energy for a fresh one). But the whole hub itself and its layout is pretty cool.
Tantalus' Devastator with the dog looking at you was funny, part of me was hoping I would be able to get the dog to fetch the gun for me somehow (conveyor belt, two-way train...).
There is a possible softlock with the 3D printer if you get inside the sector as it lowers, or even use it once then nudge yourself inside of there and then shoot the button again - probably should use MASTERSWITCH instead of ACTIVATOR there.
Some Duke Talk quips seemed to repeat twice or even more, unfortunately I can't remember exactly which lines they were but one ("... Terminated."), but there were several - should check your sectors for accidental twin tags. In general I think the map could use better ambient sound work at all; I don't recall many being used throughout that didn't naturally emit from an in-game source, when you really shouldn't hesitate to use more MSFX's to boost atmosphere (unless the quietness is intentional, but here they just seemed forgotten about).
Mention about preserving the mirror isn't necessary as broken mirror still reflects shrink ray (not to mention you can use pal 4 on a mirror to make it impossible to break).
Oh yeah, I also shot all the ducks I could see around the level and I'm not sure if that unlocked or could unlock anything or if they were just decorative sprites (again).
Congrats on the release and thanks for sharing, had a good time.
Some design bits and moments I liked:
Spoiler
This post has been edited by ck3D: 04 December 2025 - 04:26 PM
#5 Posted 05 December 2025 - 12:52 PM
ck3D, on 04 December 2025 - 03:02 PM, said:
Took me 61 minutes on CGS, got all kills, found only one secret (I'm notoriously bad at those).
Interesting map - I am guessing the author's first? Felt like a direct throwback to the early 00's in terms of mapping trends with the tentacular successions of flat rooms that loop around then back, the colors everywhere (reminded me of Taivo Maripuu's maps), but also all the naive game language mistakes (non-explodable cracks, non-pressable buttons, decorative doors, fake fire extinguishers/lightswitches...). Unfortunately this has to be one of the first things I mention because whilst the visual direction shows potential everywhere and even looks great in parts, hinting at premises of a cool style, the flow of the progression takes a major hit from all the 'garbage' signals the level bombards the player with - and here it's especially bad considering how the guns are distributed (supplies are rare so most every crack or fire extinguisher is a save and reload), and the rooms full of monsters and switches that seem important but eventually 95% of the time do nothing (which really sucks to find out mid battle). What's worse is there are enough switches and explodables that do work to have the player keep second guessing. I think it would do your mapping a great service if/when you learn to separate in your mind the game objects that are fine to use for detail because the base game never established them as functional, and the ones that really are 'gameplay signifiers' and come with how the player will read them as an implied interaction of a certain type unless explicitly told otherwise (which you can do in the map itself). To be fair, there were some elements of language I appreciated that you incorporated on your own, for instance there were many side hallways/cul-de-sacs that terminated with a decorative door with a "wrong way" sign on it, I don't remember if it was always respected but it was common enough for me to know that in such a position I effectively was at a dead-end in the level and shouldn't try passing the wall.
Don't get me wrong though - still had plenty of fun. The firefights were right up my alley with all the mean angles, I didn't mind the abundance of Pigcops or even Newbeasts, transparent/shadow Sentry Drone always is a fun idea (no irony), the turrets are an enemy I usually like too but here I must admit they pissed me off not in themselves but because I think something the map does is keep pistol and chaingun away from the player until they are about 95% done with it, but the pistol is one of the most accurate weapons to use on the turret's broken hitbox, so being stuck with a shotgun against them was 150% more frustrating than usual. One way to make up for that would have been to provide the player with Expander ammo since it also is accurate, and the Shrinker (gun) is found early in the level here, but I don't think I ever ran into some. Of course I wonder if finding more secrets wouldn't have helped me break away from this restrictive pattern, or if they would have made little difference. I did appreciate the Freezer being featured, although I wouldn't have minded some more ammo for it, it did help greatly against some of the later Battlelords. I didn't really like the gameplay being so shotgun-focused too, bold choice but at the same time the most generic gun in the game (although satisfying to use obviously) and so it felt a bit like the gameplay just barely missed a few extra dimensions it could have reached. For instance, equal/extra focus on the Freezer (again) would have ruled because the map design is full of angles.
Enemy choice itself was cool in general, with only a few encounters feeling like they had too many types crammed within (thus feeling spammy) or uninspired in comparison to most others. Getting to enter a room shrunk and find a safe spot where to grow back to full Duke was awesome, gives the player some time to strategize before exposing themselves and activating the enemies. Speaking of shoehorning, the train also felt a bit forced (plus it's easy to just get around it and walk across the super short track) but I liked that it just existed, also with a funny license plate for some reason. Too bad it didn't serve a better purpose, e.g.. connect back to the other train-themed area where the platform there is just blocked.
Maybe only the last 5% of the map started feeling redundant and tiresome after the player leaves the main hub, as once you've escaped now it feels like the author just kept making stretches of rooms until they ran out of all the walls (but whenever you catch yourself feeling like you're doing that, you should just end the level and save the leftover energy for a fresh one). But the whole hub itself and its layout is pretty cool.
Tantalus' Devastator with the dog looking at you was funny, part of me was hoping I would be able to get the dog to fetch the gun for me somehow (conveyor belt, two-way train...).
There is a possible softlock with the 3D printer if you get inside the sector as it lowers, or even use it once then nudge yourself inside of there and then shoot the button again - probably should use MASTERSWITCH instead of ACTIVATOR there.
Some Duke Talk quips seemed to repeat twice or even more, unfortunately I can't remember exactly which lines they were but one ("... Terminated."), but there were several - should check your sectors for accidental twin tags. In general I think the map could use better ambient sound work at all; I don't recall many being used throughout that didn't naturally emit from an in-game source, when you really shouldn't hesitate to use more MSFX's to boost atmosphere (unless the quietness is intentional, but here they just seemed forgotten about).
Mention about preserving the mirror isn't necessary as broken mirror still reflects shrink ray (not to mention you can use pal 4 on a mirror to make it impossible to break).
Oh yeah, I also shot all the ducks I could see around the level and I'm not sure if that unlocked or could unlock anything or if they were just decorative sprites (again).
Congrats on the release and thanks for sharing, had a good time.
Some design bits and moments I liked:
Interesting map - I am guessing the author's first? Felt like a direct throwback to the early 00's in terms of mapping trends with the tentacular successions of flat rooms that loop around then back, the colors everywhere (reminded me of Taivo Maripuu's maps), but also all the naive game language mistakes (non-explodable cracks, non-pressable buttons, decorative doors, fake fire extinguishers/lightswitches...). Unfortunately this has to be one of the first things I mention because whilst the visual direction shows potential everywhere and even looks great in parts, hinting at premises of a cool style, the flow of the progression takes a major hit from all the 'garbage' signals the level bombards the player with - and here it's especially bad considering how the guns are distributed (supplies are rare so most every crack or fire extinguisher is a save and reload), and the rooms full of monsters and switches that seem important but eventually 95% of the time do nothing (which really sucks to find out mid battle). What's worse is there are enough switches and explodables that do work to have the player keep second guessing. I think it would do your mapping a great service if/when you learn to separate in your mind the game objects that are fine to use for detail because the base game never established them as functional, and the ones that really are 'gameplay signifiers' and come with how the player will read them as an implied interaction of a certain type unless explicitly told otherwise (which you can do in the map itself). To be fair, there were some elements of language I appreciated that you incorporated on your own, for instance there were many side hallways/cul-de-sacs that terminated with a decorative door with a "wrong way" sign on it, I don't remember if it was always respected but it was common enough for me to know that in such a position I effectively was at a dead-end in the level and shouldn't try passing the wall.
Don't get me wrong though - still had plenty of fun. The firefights were right up my alley with all the mean angles, I didn't mind the abundance of Pigcops or even Newbeasts, transparent/shadow Sentry Drone always is a fun idea (no irony), the turrets are an enemy I usually like too but here I must admit they pissed me off not in themselves but because I think something the map does is keep pistol and chaingun away from the player until they are about 95% done with it, but the pistol is one of the most accurate weapons to use on the turret's broken hitbox, so being stuck with a shotgun against them was 150% more frustrating than usual. One way to make up for that would have been to provide the player with Expander ammo since it also is accurate, and the Shrinker (gun) is found early in the level here, but I don't think I ever ran into some. Of course I wonder if finding more secrets wouldn't have helped me break away from this restrictive pattern, or if they would have made little difference. I did appreciate the Freezer being featured, although I wouldn't have minded some more ammo for it, it did help greatly against some of the later Battlelords. I didn't really like the gameplay being so shotgun-focused too, bold choice but at the same time the most generic gun in the game (although satisfying to use obviously) and so it felt a bit like the gameplay just barely missed a few extra dimensions it could have reached. For instance, equal/extra focus on the Freezer (again) would have ruled because the map design is full of angles.
Enemy choice itself was cool in general, with only a few encounters feeling like they had too many types crammed within (thus feeling spammy) or uninspired in comparison to most others. Getting to enter a room shrunk and find a safe spot where to grow back to full Duke was awesome, gives the player some time to strategize before exposing themselves and activating the enemies. Speaking of shoehorning, the train also felt a bit forced (plus it's easy to just get around it and walk across the super short track) but I liked that it just existed, also with a funny license plate for some reason. Too bad it didn't serve a better purpose, e.g.. connect back to the other train-themed area where the platform there is just blocked.
Maybe only the last 5% of the map started feeling redundant and tiresome after the player leaves the main hub, as once you've escaped now it feels like the author just kept making stretches of rooms until they ran out of all the walls (but whenever you catch yourself feeling like you're doing that, you should just end the level and save the leftover energy for a fresh one). But the whole hub itself and its layout is pretty cool.
Tantalus' Devastator with the dog looking at you was funny, part of me was hoping I would be able to get the dog to fetch the gun for me somehow (conveyor belt, two-way train...).
There is a possible softlock with the 3D printer if you get inside the sector as it lowers, or even use it once then nudge yourself inside of there and then shoot the button again - probably should use MASTERSWITCH instead of ACTIVATOR there.
Some Duke Talk quips seemed to repeat twice or even more, unfortunately I can't remember exactly which lines they were but one ("... Terminated."), but there were several - should check your sectors for accidental twin tags. In general I think the map could use better ambient sound work at all; I don't recall many being used throughout that didn't naturally emit from an in-game source, when you really shouldn't hesitate to use more MSFX's to boost atmosphere (unless the quietness is intentional, but here they just seemed forgotten about).
Mention about preserving the mirror isn't necessary as broken mirror still reflects shrink ray (not to mention you can use pal 4 on a mirror to make it impossible to break).
Oh yeah, I also shot all the ducks I could see around the level and I'm not sure if that unlocked or could unlock anything or if they were just decorative sprites (again).
Congrats on the release and thanks for sharing, had a good time.
Some design bits and moments I liked:
Spoiler
Wow ck3D, where to start? Before I forget: thanks a lot for your long and detailed feedback!
Your tally is fun, congrats on killing "everything".
"Everything" because with 1 of 9 secrets found, there are definitely enemies left as I hid some in multiple secrets as well. Must be a port thing? I always play Duke on Raze and their tally always shows some monsters are still alive but whatever. 333 kills, funny repdigit and even unintentional. When I just tried again I had 343 (?) kills and still 7 left even though I have killed all monsters in all secret areas as well, making sure I get all sharks and slimers too. Whatever, the tally is not really important - at least to me.Yes, very first completed map. I tried Build a looooooooong time ago but never made anything. So this year I forced myself to learn it by doing.
Can't remember, but never played any of Taivo's map - except "Just Another Christmas" just a few days ago.I do have to disagree with you about what you called "naive game language mistakes". Yes there are many switches or buttons which do not function but they were either placed for realism and/or for decorative purposes. (Same counts for wall cracks which don't explode, same for fire extinguishers. In real life they don't even explode if you shoot one.) Also most of them have a "out of order" sticker nearby. And some have the broken DIPSWITCH2 button texture anyway (#4483). For you, I will add stickers everywhere now. Same about weapon distribution: the intention was to make the map not too easy, so there are only a few weapons at the start. I wanted to force the player to explore! This is an action/exploration map! Ammo should never be rare, I did multiple playthroughs WITHOUT entering any secret area on purpose and it works well. No need to save/reload if you ask me. So if you really explore, you'll find all secret areas more or less easily, having plenty of health and ammo then. I know there is a lot to look at and to checkout, but that's the intention. EXPLORE! And lots of aliens: ACTION! So to say 95% of all switches/buttons are not working is exaggerated, sorry. Also, why try to press them mid battle? Not a good idea. Kill everything in a room or section first, then explore? Dead ends, yes, there are quite many of them. But none of them are extremely long or even maze-like as seen in other maps where one can get lost. The "wrong way"-signs are actually not realistic and are also just decoration. I'm glad they helped from trying to pass a dead end-door or something.
Turrets, well, there was the intention to add them in the longer info text at the starts security screen, but then omitted because there is already too much text. The intention was like "our EDF turrets were hacked and are now also under alien control, so they're firing at humans".
I also know about the pistols accuracy against them, and that's why there is no pistol in the map until the end phase. I wanted to force the player to waste shotgun ammo on them since there is so much shotgun ammo everywhere. 
The use of expander instead of shrinker was also planned, but also omitted. So ammo for shrinker is indeed intentionally very rare, ammo can only be found in 2 secret areas I think. I didn't want to make the map too difficult when newbies play it so I sticked to the shrinker and no expander at all. But also not too easy, like placing shrinker ammo every 50 meters in the game. Use it wisely! Shotgun is a love-hate weapon if you ask me, perfect for learning. If you miss, you are cursing if yet another Pig Cop blasts you dead during your reload/next shot time. And yet, especially at close range, it's the best weapon to deal lots of damage. I believe the chaingun is more boring, one reason it only shows up late in the map. Talking about weapons, the Devastator was meant purely as a tease, this weapon is not available at all on purpose. Unless you're cheating.The train was indeed a test, to see if I get it working and the original track was super long, all the way up to the northern border of Mapster! I just was confused by walls being suddenly blue in Mapster (too long?), so the track was shortened again. The other "real" train track is not connected to it because they are 2 different types of trains. See how big the tracks in the blocked train stations are? The short existing train was intended to be a little monorail, but placing sprites on the floor to bring the rail to life was omitted because it messed up with the train, suddenly the trains floor had the "monorail" texture" and some part of the track didn't have it = "monorail sprite textures" deleted again.
Thanks about the softlock, I will fix that. Had to lower the platform, because it was possible to grab the keycard without "printing", just by walking near the shaft.
Duke talks repeat only once but multiple times, just need to figure out where it was again, but it was not the "...terminated!" line (see the map in Mapster if you like). There is ambient sound, just not when there's no machinery or computers around. The game also lacks more variety for them, that's why I decided to keep some areas silent, especially the Gamma part. The whole Gamma section is intented to be a clean, silent elitist section. As good as no dirt, no visible distractions like animated machinery beeping endlessly (there are exceptions of course) and just another world compared to the more-or-less dirty everymans Alpha and Beta sections...
Also thanks for teaching me about the mirror, I will remove the text. That specific mirror has a palette of 4 by the way, just like the other one nearby, and yet they are destructible. I just don't know why, but I'm sure they can be fixed too.
Again, thank you for your time, help, advise ck3D, I appreaciate it! Myself, the slacker has some work to do now, bye!
#6 Posted 05 December 2025 - 02:47 PM
Please don't get me wrong, I only called it a mistake because you may not realize it just yet, but that train of thought that any sprite including switches and explodables only means more detail is a typical pattern most people fall into in the earliest stages of their mapping (I know it all too well myself although I try not to project, it's just commonly observable in general in people's works, and it also makes complete sense to first approach the editor that way), but the reality is the language some of the most famous games in the world have established by turning certain objects into their most prominent features (so in the case of Duke 3D leading people to expect that fire extinguishers and cracks explode walls and switches open stuff) always will take precedence over whichever new meaning a singular mapper in the world may be hoping other people read into it in their map only. Really one should make what they want but it is useful to recognize that even if/when it is to subvert or work around it. In the case of this map, the switches are detail in your head only because you made it, but the average player will just see random and misleading signals peppered throughout everywhere. You can still introduce random detail, it's just better to use different non game-related sprites; it is better introduced through the filter of the game and translated into something that will not annoy practically (or will annoy in a controlled way).
I don't think you should edit the map to address that now, it is ingrained in the nature of the work now, it is too late and might only work against it to suddenly strip so many elements away when they are strong supporters of the style. It just happens your style in this specific map is very 2000's (and the 2000's were a blast for user map releases so there is nothing wrong or bad about that at all), so I'm trying to explain what made a lot of 2000's user maps often double up as impractical for you to consider from now on for (hopefully) your next maps. Simply signaling all the instances of the phenomenon around your current one would only draw more attention to it now. Also I doubt it really is an ideal solution at all, e.g.. I've seen other people justify making non-working lightswitches in certain maps before by adding 'out of order' labels to every lightswitch and let's call a cat a cat, that is lazy and doesn't work (although I always find it hilarious to see it, the human brain universally will take such shortcuts sometimes.)
Another thing that is tempting to make as a new mapper is fake doors everywhere for 'realism', but in a way that also is a game object in the sense that this genre of games often uses decorative doors to mark spaces that exist behind a wall (even if the door itself is a decoy and the player has to find a lateral way to get there). In the case of your map, you have a lot of such doors that only add to the disbelief if anything because they are on one side of thin walls (as observable on automap) where it's physically impossible there even could realistically be a room behind. Not going to lie, I actually kind of like that as it is a bit of an extension of how Build layouts potentially can mess with player senses, but that has to be under control too so you know what your design really is suggesting. I did find it convenient to use some of the doorways for cover, but generally speaking I preferred when you instead made little side rooms and nooks and crannies (and so provided even more space for lateral cover, without the misleading door).
I wasn't saying you shouldn't have included the Shrinker (it is super helpful), just that Expander ammo could have considered whilst at it, there really were times where it could have come in handy, but I could understand if that would be something you would want to reserve to a secret so it's just another 'mode' of playing the map. Mind you, despite the heavy shotgun bias, generally I found the item distribution well balanced on CGS and so I don't think you'd want to risk throwing it off now.
About why try and hit switches mid battle - why not. You only have so much control over how someone will play your map (which is why every bit of control that you do have as a mapper is better recognized and understood, even if it's to break away). In my case I was outnumbered on low health, attempting strats around the room mid fight hoping to unlock new rooms to filter the enemies I had on my back through, but that's pretty common a method when in difficulty and I shouldn't have to justify it. Players will try and usually do just about anything possible in any map you will release and that is another thing to accept that you can only intend so much. It's a bit heartbreaking to witness if pretentious but then takes no time to realize the fresh interpretation of the thing you made is what is beautiful, especially if you consciously decided on the leeway.
And yeah blue wall means too long. But walls can be too long for the engine to compute things well even if way too short to hit the limit where they turn blue. In general I've found 16384 units to be good max wall lengths to avoid rendering issues in big scale maps (of course oftentimes you'll want a longer wall than that but your wall point can be just a straight split).
I don't think you should edit the map to address that now, it is ingrained in the nature of the work now, it is too late and might only work against it to suddenly strip so many elements away when they are strong supporters of the style. It just happens your style in this specific map is very 2000's (and the 2000's were a blast for user map releases so there is nothing wrong or bad about that at all), so I'm trying to explain what made a lot of 2000's user maps often double up as impractical for you to consider from now on for (hopefully) your next maps. Simply signaling all the instances of the phenomenon around your current one would only draw more attention to it now. Also I doubt it really is an ideal solution at all, e.g.. I've seen other people justify making non-working lightswitches in certain maps before by adding 'out of order' labels to every lightswitch and let's call a cat a cat, that is lazy and doesn't work (although I always find it hilarious to see it, the human brain universally will take such shortcuts sometimes.)
Another thing that is tempting to make as a new mapper is fake doors everywhere for 'realism', but in a way that also is a game object in the sense that this genre of games often uses decorative doors to mark spaces that exist behind a wall (even if the door itself is a decoy and the player has to find a lateral way to get there). In the case of your map, you have a lot of such doors that only add to the disbelief if anything because they are on one side of thin walls (as observable on automap) where it's physically impossible there even could realistically be a room behind. Not going to lie, I actually kind of like that as it is a bit of an extension of how Build layouts potentially can mess with player senses, but that has to be under control too so you know what your design really is suggesting. I did find it convenient to use some of the doorways for cover, but generally speaking I preferred when you instead made little side rooms and nooks and crannies (and so provided even more space for lateral cover, without the misleading door).
I wasn't saying you shouldn't have included the Shrinker (it is super helpful), just that Expander ammo could have considered whilst at it, there really were times where it could have come in handy, but I could understand if that would be something you would want to reserve to a secret so it's just another 'mode' of playing the map. Mind you, despite the heavy shotgun bias, generally I found the item distribution well balanced on CGS and so I don't think you'd want to risk throwing it off now.
About why try and hit switches mid battle - why not. You only have so much control over how someone will play your map (which is why every bit of control that you do have as a mapper is better recognized and understood, even if it's to break away). In my case I was outnumbered on low health, attempting strats around the room mid fight hoping to unlock new rooms to filter the enemies I had on my back through, but that's pretty common a method when in difficulty and I shouldn't have to justify it. Players will try and usually do just about anything possible in any map you will release and that is another thing to accept that you can only intend so much. It's a bit heartbreaking to witness if pretentious but then takes no time to realize the fresh interpretation of the thing you made is what is beautiful, especially if you consciously decided on the leeway.
And yeah blue wall means too long. But walls can be too long for the engine to compute things well even if way too short to hit the limit where they turn blue. In general I've found 16384 units to be good max wall lengths to avoid rendering issues in big scale maps (of course oftentimes you'll want a longer wall than that but your wall point can be just a straight split).
This post has been edited by ck3D: 05 December 2025 - 03:57 PM
#7 Posted 06 December 2025 - 12:14 PM
Now this is hilarious indeed. All mappers HAVE to obey players unwritten "laws"? Like if there is a switch it HAS to be working, it MUST open/activate/whatever something at all costs!? What if I'm different? What if useless switches are part of my oldschool mapping design? What if useless switches are not just decoration but also part of the map exploration? Just like useless doors? You see doors and switches and try to open/use them, and if nothing happens: move on? Better to have such things instead of none of them? Or I just could make outdoor canyon maps without any switches or doors lol. Just kidding! Sometimes "less is more" isn't more. I don't see why such action could be considered annoying. Sorry to hear that. I didn't know Duke players are so picky nowadays. That sounds arrogant. I have been absent from the Duke scene for like 25 years, but your news are like a shock to me. People expect every fire ext. to explode and crack open a wall or what? I don't think so. But okay, for working switches I will use normal switch textrures from now on. For non working switches I will use one and the same broken dipswitch texture. Also less fire extinguishers. I understand the wall/ceiling cracks though, more or less broken walls can be designed differently. About doors, okay, there can be many workarounds too. To me it's funny that you think it's hilarious seeing dead switches with "out of order" labels. Doesn't that just shorten the switch exploration? You can still try to press it if you like, or move on. Nobody forces you to press it, or to not press it. Or maybe look around for some alternative override switch (just like I used multiple times in my map to open secret areas). What do you say now? (I do know that I sound arrogant now, but that's not the intention. Every author has the right to design as he/she/it wants to do it.)
Name one, if you mean the "radioactive" door at the very start, this is supposed to be the door of the tiny "The Really Ready Room". Just like the other door in the same room leading to the hub. That gray door doesn't lead to Duke's Burger, it's supposed to be the already open to the yellowish maintenance area. All other useless doors are meant for realism/decoation. (Imagine if I would remove all useless doors now, some parts of the map would look/feel different then, as in "Isn't there something missing here? In general? That doesn't look realistic at all!").
Anyway thanks again once more ck3D, I truly appreciate any kind of feedback even if I have to disagree with you so often. Call me a troll/maverick or whatever and/or downvote my posts here. I simply don't care and will continue "my" style simply due to the clear fact: the engine offers it, why not use it?
I don't see why such action could be considered annoying. Sorry to hear that. I didn't know Duke players are so picky nowadays. That sounds arrogant. I have been absent from the Duke scene for like 25 years, but your news are like a shock to me. People expect every fire ext. to explode and crack open a wall or what? I don't think so. But okay, for working switches I will use normal switch textrures from now on. For non working switches I will use one and the same broken dipswitch texture. Also less fire extinguishers. I understand the wall/ceiling cracks though, more or less broken walls can be designed differently. About doors, okay, there can be many workarounds too. To me it's funny that you think it's hilarious seeing dead switches with "out of order" labels. Doesn't that just shorten the switch exploration? You can still try to press it if you like, or move on. Nobody forces you to press it, or to not press it. Or maybe look around for some alternative override switch (just like I used multiple times in my map to open secret areas). What do you say now? (I do know that I sound arrogant now, but that's not the intention. Every author has the right to design as he/she/it wants to do it.)ck3D, on 05 December 2025 - 02:47 PM, said:
In the case of your map, you have a lot of such doors that only add to the disbelief if anything because they are on one side of thin walls (as observable on automap) where it's physically impossible there even could realistically be a room behind.
Name one, if you mean the "radioactive" door at the very start, this is supposed to be the door of the tiny "The Really Ready Room". Just like the other door in the same room leading to the hub. That gray door doesn't lead to Duke's Burger, it's supposed to be the already open to the yellowish maintenance area. All other useless doors are meant for realism/decoation. (Imagine if I would remove all useless doors now, some parts of the map would look/feel different then, as in "Isn't there something missing here? In general? That doesn't look realistic at all!").
Anyway thanks again once more ck3D, I truly appreciate any kind of feedback even if I have to disagree with you so often. Call me a troll/maverick or whatever and/or downvote my posts here. I simply don't care and will continue "my" style simply due to the clear fact: the engine offers it, why not use it?
#8 Posted 06 December 2025 - 12:58 PM
I'm pretty sure I've explicitly stated you should make what you want, but yes there is science to the communication of information to the player through level design which is what makes it a craft. Most tools at a mapper's disposal aren't even in the editor or actual game assets but principles to apply and see how they work out, by themselves or when diverging from them. You are free to ignore absolutely all of the principles (they are not rules) but then shouldn't be surprised if/when players provide feedback that is about the resulting confusion (confusing the player also isn't bad as long as it is under control). You shouldn't be shocked that players react to the elements in your designs depending on what they have been trained to expect from them. I'm trying to provide perspective about possibilities, not restrictions but you don't have to care, I don't exactly expect anyone to.
This post has been edited by ck3D: 06 December 2025 - 02:17 PM
#9 Posted 06 December 2025 - 05:02 PM
I have to concur with ck3D on most of the points regarding his feedback and I don't think there is any need for you to get defensive about it or have to explain yourself. It's your first released map, it's better than most "first maps", but there's also clear learning curve visible there. I am not sure if you made parts of the map in the sequence similar to progression, but would guess it is so, since the final part looked the best I think. I don't mind fake switches so much if they are clearly indicated as such (using one of the broken switch textures or "out of order" sign, as you have done in most cases), but some makes you wonder if they are indeed not doing anything or just located at wrong height so Duke can't use them (the switch before the blue key door, which works, is a good example - you had to add text on kicking it because it is located in the "dead zone" between Duke's standing and ducking "pressing range"). The cracks are more serious, as more often than not, players will unnecessarily waste explosives on them and this is something I would be more concerned on calling "game language" than fake doors/switches/extinguishers, as it has been established since the original game and is ingrained in the reflexes of most players by now. Another thing I did not like was a lot of sprite clutter on the floor, in particular if in tiny/narrow spaces, which made fighting/backing off annoying sometimes. Don't get me wrong - I like detailed maps, but it tends to be more fun/rewarding to use something more creative for that. Same with posters on the walls. I know you put emphasis on exploration, but then some parts of the map felt like weird dead ends (the train being offline for example - after killing a Battlelord, you'd expect some major progress and not just a new secret). Some more interconnection would also work great here, due to map's size - I appreciate this is done with the city part that can be accessed from different ways and towards the end, after picking up the yellow key, you get a shortcut to the main hub. Otherwise, the map does feel a bit "flat" (and not only because of very little verticality).
I liked about the map that it didn't follow current "trends", it looked a lot like very early "joy" from building in vein of many '96ish maps, although you kept it consistent throughout which is good (and even managed to stick in the city bit as a "simulation" without clashing with the main theme). The colourful theme was cool and rarely seen in space maps, which was nice touch - I especially liked the bold choice with stretched fullbright red/yellow textures at the entrance to Gamma section (which BTW had an extremely dickish tripmine trap, with one of the tripmines placed below the floor level in the down-sloped ramp, which made it invisible for the player yet fully functional. I don't now if that was made on purpose or just an accident, but still, it should be avoided). The map might have been too focused on shotgun, but in general I found the balance of ammo/health alright (found 6 secrets, but then shotgun ammo was quite plentiful anyway. Killed 359 enemies in total - now the counter can differ because of sharks/tanks/slimers and eggs). I didn't mind the choice of enemies either - some fights were quite cool, like entering the Reactor Core or parts of the city (Battlelord there really surprised me). The two-way train ride was pretty cool as well - it just felt so rewarding running over all the aliens on the tracks (and I looted an early chaingun).
Again, you can ignore my comments as well for your next map (which I'm looking forward to playing, as I'm sure it will be an improvement) - but then everyone started somewhere!
I liked about the map that it didn't follow current "trends", it looked a lot like very early "joy" from building in vein of many '96ish maps, although you kept it consistent throughout which is good (and even managed to stick in the city bit as a "simulation" without clashing with the main theme). The colourful theme was cool and rarely seen in space maps, which was nice touch - I especially liked the bold choice with stretched fullbright red/yellow textures at the entrance to Gamma section (which BTW had an extremely dickish tripmine trap, with one of the tripmines placed below the floor level in the down-sloped ramp, which made it invisible for the player yet fully functional. I don't now if that was made on purpose or just an accident, but still, it should be avoided). The map might have been too focused on shotgun, but in general I found the balance of ammo/health alright (found 6 secrets, but then shotgun ammo was quite plentiful anyway. Killed 359 enemies in total - now the counter can differ because of sharks/tanks/slimers and eggs). I didn't mind the choice of enemies either - some fights were quite cool, like entering the Reactor Core or parts of the city (Battlelord there really surprised me). The two-way train ride was pretty cool as well - it just felt so rewarding running over all the aliens on the tracks (and I looted an early chaingun).
Again, you can ignore my comments as well for your next map (which I'm looking forward to playing, as I'm sure it will be an improvement) - but then everyone started somewhere!
#10 Posted 07 December 2025 - 11:20 AM
@ck3D: alright, I will add more of those interactive "security" screens to explain stuff if a new map features untraditional elements Thanks again, and I have to apologize to you for being so harsh with you 
@ Aleks:
-yes, all parts of the map were made step by step just like players would proceed through progression (the only exception being Alpha, Beta was made first, but the connection Alpha/Beta was established early)
-yes some switches are hanging low on the wall, some intentionally to fit to the walls texture. the voice verification button was indeed a PITA, it once was completely working as it should be and then I suddenly messed up something and it started being stubborn so thanks God for kicking switches works too xD So it's the placement/height and/or the closeness to other sprites that makes it almost unusable? I see, I will try to avoid this from now of course.
-I also hate tight hallways cluttered with God-knows-what on the floor, making it harder to move back or forth, but it should only happen in a very few hallways. Most of rooms are wide intentionally of course. And yes, most rooms are flat as the whole map is intended to be a flat space station, explaining why you can see space on some celings or the start rooms floor
-you're right about the offline train station, there should have been a better reward for players there but then I think it's one of the best looking parts even if it's kinda small
-same for more interconnection, absolutely true and it bothers me there ain't any more
-sorry about a hidden tripmine at Gamma entrance, I will fix that! Accident remnant Placing them was not easy, so yes, I placed some, then deleted all, placed again, deleted and so on lol. But did you know that you don't have to blast any of them at Gamma entrance if you're a skilled jumper? (doesn't work everywhere, some need to be eliminated) Edit: there are 2 tripmines and 1 below them but all should be visible? I thought there is a fourth hidden but couldn't find any more
-early chaingun, how dare you??? what are the odds? its just one enforcer there lol
-thanks a lot for your feedback, glad you liked some features so there's no need to ignore you, in fact ignoring anyone isn't an option
Everyone is welcome to provide any kind of feedback (just be warned that I will defend my map if I believe it's necessary lol)
Thanks again, and I have to apologize to you for being so harsh with you @ Aleks:
-yes, all parts of the map were made step by step just like players would proceed through progression (the only exception being Alpha, Beta was made first, but the connection Alpha/Beta was established early)
-yes some switches are hanging low on the wall, some intentionally to fit to the walls texture. the voice verification button was indeed a PITA, it once was completely working as it should be and then I suddenly messed up something and it started being stubborn so thanks God for kicking switches works too xD So it's the placement/height and/or the closeness to other sprites that makes it almost unusable? I see, I will try to avoid this from now of course.
-I also hate tight hallways cluttered with God-knows-what on the floor, making it harder to move back or forth, but it should only happen in a very few hallways. Most of rooms are wide intentionally of course. And yes, most rooms are flat as the whole map is intended to be a flat space station, explaining why you can see space on some celings or the start rooms floor
-you're right about the offline train station, there should have been a better reward for players there but then I think it's one of the best looking parts even if it's kinda small
-same for more interconnection, absolutely true and it bothers me there ain't any more
-sorry about a hidden tripmine at Gamma entrance, I will fix that! Accident remnant
Placing them was not easy, so yes, I placed some, then deleted all, placed again, deleted and so on lol. But did you know that you don't have to blast any of them at Gamma entrance if you're a skilled jumper? (doesn't work everywhere, some need to be eliminated) Edit: there are 2 tripmines and 1 below them but all should be visible? I thought there is a fourth hidden but couldn't find any more -early chaingun, how dare you???
what are the odds? its just one enforcer there lol-thanks a lot for your feedback, glad you liked some features so there's no need to ignore you, in fact ignoring anyone isn't an option
Everyone is welcome to provide any kind of feedback (just be warned that I will defend my map if I believe it's necessary lol)
This post has been edited by Puke Fukem: 07 December 2025 - 11:50 AM
#11 Posted 08 December 2025 - 10:36 AM
Final version of this map, I have no intend to edit it any further. Softlock fixed I hope (thanks ck3D!), also many little cosmetic mistakes fixed like missing shadows added, misaligned ceilings, removed some of the wall cracks which don't have a purpose other than being decorative.
Download below or at ModDB: https://www.moddb.co...3d/addons/7ghub
7GHUB.zip (2.5MB)
Number of downloads: 26
Download below or at ModDB: https://www.moddb.co...3d/addons/7ghub
7GHUB.zip (2.5MB)
Number of downloads: 26
- Music Producer
-
#12 Posted 09 December 2025 - 09:17 PM
Puke Fukem, on 06 December 2025 - 12:14 PM, said:
Now this is hilarious indeed. All mappers HAVE to obey players unwritten "laws"? Like if there is a switch it HAS to be working, it MUST open/activate/whatever something at all costs!? What if I'm different? What if useless switches are part of my oldschool mapping design? What if useless switches are not just decoration but also part of the map exploration? Just like useless doors? You see doors and switches and try to open/use them, and if nothing happens: move on? Better to have such things instead of none of them? Or I just could make outdoor canyon maps without any switches or doors lol. Just kidding! Sometimes "less is more" isn't more. I don't see why such action could be considered annoying. Sorry to hear that. I didn't know Duke players are so picky nowadays. That sounds arrogant. I have been absent from the Duke scene for like 25 years, but your news are like a shock to me. People expect every fire ext. to explode and crack open a wall or what? I don't think so. But okay, for working switches I will use normal switch textrures from now on. For non working switches I will use one and the same broken dipswitch texture. Also less fire extinguishers. I understand the wall/ceiling cracks though, more or less broken walls can be designed differently. About doors, okay, there can be many workarounds too. To me it's funny that you think it's hilarious seeing dead switches with "out of order" labels. Doesn't that just shorten the switch exploration? You can still try to press it if you like, or move on. Nobody forces you to press it, or to not press it. Or maybe look around for some alternative override switch (just like I used multiple times in my map to open secret areas). What do you say now? (I do know that I sound arrogant now, but that's not the intention. Every author has the right to design as he/she/it wants to do it.)
Name one, if you mean the "radioactive" door at the very start, this is supposed to be the door of the tiny "The Really Ready Room". Just like the other door in the same room leading to the hub. That gray door doesn't lead to Duke's Burger, it's supposed to be the already open to the yellowish maintenance area. All other useless doors are meant for realism/decoation. (Imagine if I would remove all useless doors now, some parts of the map would look/feel different then, as in "Isn't there something missing here? In general? That doesn't look realistic at all!").
Anyway thanks again once more ck3D, I truly appreciate any kind of feedback even if I have to disagree with you so often. Call me a troll/maverick or whatever and/or downvote my posts here. I simply don't care and will continue "my" style simply due to the clear fact: the engine offers it, why not use it?
I don't see why such action could be considered annoying. Sorry to hear that. I didn't know Duke players are so picky nowadays. That sounds arrogant. I have been absent from the Duke scene for like 25 years, but your news are like a shock to me. People expect every fire ext. to explode and crack open a wall or what? I don't think so. But okay, for working switches I will use normal switch textrures from now on. For non working switches I will use one and the same broken dipswitch texture. Also less fire extinguishers. I understand the wall/ceiling cracks though, more or less broken walls can be designed differently. About doors, okay, there can be many workarounds too. To me it's funny that you think it's hilarious seeing dead switches with "out of order" labels. Doesn't that just shorten the switch exploration? You can still try to press it if you like, or move on. Nobody forces you to press it, or to not press it. Or maybe look around for some alternative override switch (just like I used multiple times in my map to open secret areas). What do you say now? (I do know that I sound arrogant now, but that's not the intention. Every author has the right to design as he/she/it wants to do it.)Name one, if you mean the "radioactive" door at the very start, this is supposed to be the door of the tiny "The Really Ready Room". Just like the other door in the same room leading to the hub. That gray door doesn't lead to Duke's Burger, it's supposed to be the already open to the yellowish maintenance area. All other useless doors are meant for realism/decoation. (Imagine if I would remove all useless doors now, some parts of the map would look/feel different then, as in "Isn't there something missing here? In general? That doesn't look realistic at all!").
Anyway thanks again once more ck3D, I truly appreciate any kind of feedback even if I have to disagree with you so often. Call me a troll/maverick or whatever and/or downvote my posts here. I simply don't care and will continue "my" style simply due to the clear fact: the engine offers it, why not use it?
He's just an expert on the art you love analyzing your art, this can be hard, especially on your first released piece, don't be discouraged and keep going.
#13 Posted 10 December 2025 - 06:00 AM
I've played this map and overall I quite liked it! Some stuff I enjoyed:
- the open ended nature of the map, which encourages exploration and kept the map interesting
- interesting use of textures and colors, I especially liked the reactor room and the city streets
-the map itself felt like a throwback to the 90's, which is cool
-the humor was enjoyable, even the literal toilet humor was pretty funny. And I appreciated the Obi Wan joke hehe
-secrets (the ones I found) were well hidden but not too well hidden
-gameplay was restrictive but having a limited selection of weapons actually worked, had no trouble with ammo or health.
-some nice usage of shadows, for example the mess hall worked quite well with the heavy contrast between dark and light
Some stuff that can be improved:
- I have to agree with the others, I'm mostly forgiving about fake doors/switches etc. but the sheer amount of them in this map is a bit.. much. To the point of feeling there's too much clutter in the map.
What annoyed me more is that some doors had a broken switch next to them, but then the door could simply be opened by pressing "use" on it. I would avoid those type of design choises, as the broken switch sends the signal to the player that "this door doesn't work". So while I'm not against using the broken switches per se, it's important to not overdo it. In this instance, only use them to signal doors that are NOT working.
- The last bit did feel a bit aimless, as we already completed the mission of getting access to Gamma but then the map just kept going with no clear new objective.
Bear in mind, we're not asking you to change these things. Just something to keep in mind when you design your next map. Good signposting can improve the experience of a map a lot.
Though, to be fair, I never got lost or frustrated in your map. Felt like there was always some new area to explore.
Keep 'em coming!
- the open ended nature of the map, which encourages exploration and kept the map interesting
- interesting use of textures and colors, I especially liked the reactor room and the city streets
-the map itself felt like a throwback to the 90's, which is cool
-the humor was enjoyable, even the literal toilet humor was pretty funny. And I appreciated the Obi Wan joke hehe
-secrets (the ones I found) were well hidden but not too well hidden
-gameplay was restrictive but having a limited selection of weapons actually worked, had no trouble with ammo or health.
-some nice usage of shadows, for example the mess hall worked quite well with the heavy contrast between dark and light
Some stuff that can be improved:
- I have to agree with the others, I'm mostly forgiving about fake doors/switches etc. but the sheer amount of them in this map is a bit.. much. To the point of feeling there's too much clutter in the map.
What annoyed me more is that some doors had a broken switch next to them, but then the door could simply be opened by pressing "use" on it. I would avoid those type of design choises, as the broken switch sends the signal to the player that "this door doesn't work". So while I'm not against using the broken switches per se, it's important to not overdo it. In this instance, only use them to signal doors that are NOT working.
- The last bit did feel a bit aimless, as we already completed the mission of getting access to Gamma but then the map just kept going with no clear new objective.
Bear in mind, we're not asking you to change these things. Just something to keep in mind when you design your next map. Good signposting can improve the experience of a map a lot.
Though, to be fair, I never got lost or frustrated in your map. Felt like there was always some new area to explore.
Keep 'em coming!
#14 Posted 10 December 2025 - 12:36 PM
Mike Norvak, on 09 December 2025 - 09:17 PM, said:
He's just an expert on the art you love analyzing your art, this can be hard, especially on your first released piece, don't be discouraged and keep going.
Yeah, but the way he complains about things isn't nice, so I'm not nice to him.
It's my very first map and I did all alone including testing and stuff.Merlijn, on 10 December 2025 - 06:00 AM, said:
I've played this map and overall I quite liked it! Some stuff I enjoyed:
- the open ended nature of the map, which encourages exploration and kept the map interesting
- interesting use of textures and colors, I especially liked the reactor room and the city streets
-the map itself felt like a throwback to the 90's, which is cool
-the humor was enjoyable, even the literal toilet humor was pretty funny. And I appreciated the Obi Wan joke hehe
-secrets (the ones I found) were well hidden but not too well hidden
-gameplay was restrictive but having a limited selection of weapons actually worked, had no trouble with ammo or health.
-some nice usage of shadows, for example the mess hall worked quite well with the heavy contrast between dark and light
Some stuff that can be improved:
- I have to agree with the others, I'm mostly forgiving about fake doors/switches etc. but the sheer amount of them in this map is a bit.. much. To the point of feeling there's too much clutter in the map.
What annoyed me more is that some doors had a broken switch next to them, but then the door could simply be opened by pressing "use" on it. I would avoid those type of design choises, as the broken switch sends the signal to the player that "this door doesn't work". So while I'm not against using the broken switches per se, it's important to not overdo it. In this instance, only use them to signal doors that are NOT working.
- The last bit did feel a bit aimless, as we already completed the mission of getting access to Gamma but then the map just kept going with no clear new objective.
Bear in mind, we're not asking you to change these things. Just something to keep in mind when you design your next map. Good signposting can improve the experience of a map a lot.
Though, to be fair, I never got lost or frustrated in your map. Felt like there was always some new area to explore.
Keep 'em coming!
- the open ended nature of the map, which encourages exploration and kept the map interesting
- interesting use of textures and colors, I especially liked the reactor room and the city streets
-the map itself felt like a throwback to the 90's, which is cool
-the humor was enjoyable, even the literal toilet humor was pretty funny. And I appreciated the Obi Wan joke hehe
-secrets (the ones I found) were well hidden but not too well hidden
-gameplay was restrictive but having a limited selection of weapons actually worked, had no trouble with ammo or health.
-some nice usage of shadows, for example the mess hall worked quite well with the heavy contrast between dark and light
Some stuff that can be improved:
- I have to agree with the others, I'm mostly forgiving about fake doors/switches etc. but the sheer amount of them in this map is a bit.. much. To the point of feeling there's too much clutter in the map.
What annoyed me more is that some doors had a broken switch next to them, but then the door could simply be opened by pressing "use" on it. I would avoid those type of design choises, as the broken switch sends the signal to the player that "this door doesn't work". So while I'm not against using the broken switches per se, it's important to not overdo it. In this instance, only use them to signal doors that are NOT working.
- The last bit did feel a bit aimless, as we already completed the mission of getting access to Gamma but then the map just kept going with no clear new objective.
Bear in mind, we're not asking you to change these things. Just something to keep in mind when you design your next map. Good signposting can improve the experience of a map a lot.
Though, to be fair, I never got lost or frustrated in your map. Felt like there was always some new area to explore.
Keep 'em coming!
This is how you tell a new mapper how and what to improve, thanks Merlijn! You're right about the broken switch and yet working door. It's misleading, maybe I pinned the button first then made the door and then just proceeded to make the upcoming areas, I don't remember. And yet I have to argue with you too lol: yes the switch is broken and yes the door is therefore misleading, but yet players will check the door anyway since it's kinda obvious that this is the only way to proceed ("investigate Gamma" as seen at the starts info screen). Same for your last point of criticism: the mission is not to arrive at Gamma, it's to investigate Gamma.
Anyway thanks for playing and pointing out issues nicely!
I am (slowly) working on a new vertical map since 10 days, expect some true room-over-room areas!
Release: when it's done! xD
#15 Posted 10 December 2025 - 01:27 PM
Puke Fukem, on 10 December 2025 - 12:36 PM, said:
Yeah, but the way he complains about things isn't nice, so I'm not nice to him. It's my very first map and I did all alone including testing and stuff.
It's my very first map and I did all alone including testing and stuff.Yet you were all up in my DM's for days leading up to release asking me how to do this or that stuff. I'm done with actually being nice and devoting any attention to you (for at least two days). It just makes no sense to engage if all you retain from feedback is aggression, and perspective is insulting; on my end I'm pretty confident I've sung the praises the map does deserve on fair terms. So I don't need to reinterate the aspects that I did enjoy, but you're always free to read them again if you need the reassurance.
Hadn't my own first maps received criticism on this level twenty years ago from the community at the time, I would have never tried to push anything and
It's also not like recognizing which exact signals one as a level designer is sending to the player via this or that choice is a given, it is a typical moment in one's learning curve to figure it out and no one is blaming you for being there. Just as much as there is no such thing as a wrong map, there also always is such a thing as a better next map.
This post has been edited by ck3D: 10 December 2025 - 03:23 PM
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#16 Posted 10 December 2025 - 08:35 PM
Puke Fukem, on 06 December 2025 - 12:14 PM, said:
Now this is hilarious indeed. All mappers HAVE to obey players unwritten "laws"? Like if there is a switch it HAS to be working, it MUST open/activate/whatever something at all costs!? What if I'm different?
Well actually yes. These kind of rules have been established (consciously or unconsciously) for this and other games in the past 25 years or so. You can ignore these rules if you wish of course, but is better to ignore them by decision and not by accident.
I don't find CK3D criticism specially rude or harsh, since he's also saying nice things about your map.
Personally I'd love to see you completely ignore these "laws" in your next map but this time on purpose to see what you are capable to do...
Make your next map an statement.
This post has been edited by Mike Norvak: 10 December 2025 - 08:50 PM
#17 Posted 10 December 2025 - 11:49 PM
Again I wouldn't call them 'rules' per se, I think it's two things. There's how modern games have redefined 'level design' with time and the reduced scope of experience some might expect from a supposed 'good level' - that, don't give a hoot. Then there is the comprehension of how a specific given game (in our case Duke 3D) runs on a handful of core functional components, interacting with which relies on visual markers, that then themselves forever earn signaling purposes. You can't completely break away from that at all, but when you know it's there then you can learn to articulate around it. Lezing's E9L99 has a good demonstration of subversion of game language on such a level with the giant dipswitch room.
This post has been edited by ck3D: 11 December 2025 - 12:18 AM
- Music Producer
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#18 Posted 11 December 2025 - 07:34 AM
Puke Fukem, on 10 December 2025 - 12:36 PM, said:
Yeah, but the way he complains about things isn't nice, so I'm not nice to him. It's my very first map and I did all alone including testing and stuff.
It's my very first map and I did all alone including testing and stuff.ck3D, on 10 December 2025 - 11:49 PM, said:
Again I wouldn't call them 'rules' per se, I think it's two things. There's how modern games have redefined 'level design' with time and the reduced scope of experience some might expect from a supposed 'good level' - that, don't give a hoot. Then there is the comprehension of how a specific given game (in our case Duke 3D) runs on a handful of core functional components, interacting with which relies on visual markers, that then themselves forever earn signaling purposes. You can't completely break away from that at all, but when you know it's there then you can learn to articulate around it. Lezing's E9L99 has a good demonstration of subversion of game language on such a level with the giant dipswitch room.
"Rules" to put it a certain way. "Ignore them" so to speak... However if we would be talking about signaling and visual markers we should talk about Semiotics and Syntax and take for granted syntax DO HAVE rules.
I understand where you are coming from and your frustration CK3D, but I think both of you are overeacting. I don't think Puke Fukem needs to play every DN3D user map ever made (or Lezing's E9L99 for that matter) to learn how to subvert game language (or player expectations/player mental model) on the other hand I DO think, if you analize User Maps there's no such thing as "core functional components" I mean, every mapper do whatever they want (of course there are tropes, trends, etc. -or player expectations- assossiated with every genre, age, or game -Duke Nukem 3D Base Game in our case-) BUT the POINT is not if there are rules "a priori" or not, the POINT is that: once you stablished rules in your level as a mapper and manage the player to follow them (switches can be pressed for example) you can't expect the player to not get frustrated if you change those rules without further notice Puke Nukem (switches can't be pressed) Unless you are some kind of troll mapper and want the player to stop playing your map lol
There are things that can be seen as design flaws Puke Fukem, or just plain lazynes/sloppiness, for example: someone says Fire extinguishers are expected to explode and then break a hole in the wall revealing a secret path/item, Why? because that's part of the game language? I don't think so, it's not part of the game language, you can perfectly put a fire stingusher and nothing happens, there's no hard-coded feature that make fire extingushers explode (I'm being reductionist here to prove my point) because explosives can be used in multiple ways, even, yeah! as aesthetics! why not? because "game languange" not in my opinion, but because of the player's mental model of how a Duke Nukem 3D "classic map" would work, the player expect the fire extinguisher to explode because that's how "it works", and putting an effect that doesn't work as expected is perceived as lazyness or lack of hability (this applies for everything not just game design) both by experienced mappers and by players, it just doesn't feel natural...
But what if fire stinguishers don't want to explode in your map, or what if they want to explode 1 hour later? What if they just explode when viewed through view screens? hell? do fire extinguishers even explode in real life? What if you put a disclaimer above every fire extinguisher cabinet saying "A properly maintained fire extinguisher won't explode when shot"? THAT would be either subvertive, won't break the player's mental model and be funny...
Anyways Is not like Puke Fukem wants to make a commercially viable videogame, it's just a map for a niche videogame. Let the man do it's own thing, otherwise he would end up discouraged or just copy the style of everyone else.
Is the original map still available to download?
More about mental models in videogames
This post has been edited by Mike Norvak: 11 December 2025 - 07:36 AM
#19 Posted 11 December 2025 - 08:34 AM
I'm just going to stop replying because I think people are just reading way too much into what I'm saying which is be mindful that players expect and/or are entitled to expect that a few specific sprites or set-ups imply a certain interaction or loop. It is basic logic and this whole time I've always been saying this is a thing to mind but not a rule and do what you want. Whoever projects that surely that must mean levels should be a certain way, that is on them for misinterpreting.
This post has been edited by ck3D: 11 December 2025 - 08:34 AM
- Music Producer
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#20 Posted 11 December 2025 - 09:05 AM
"Naive game language mistakes"
I don't know man, this doesn't sound either rude to me nor reading too much into what you are saying. I still hold my opinion that both of you are over reacting. Peace.
I don't know man, this doesn't sound either rude to me nor reading too much into what you are saying. I still hold my opinion that both of you are over reacting. Peace.
#21 Posted 11 December 2025 - 10:11 AM
'Naive' is the trait of being oblivious to something, 'game language' should be self-explanatory, 'mistake' I have already explained; it's very neutral a phrase, just like a flat tire is a flat tire and hot wax hot wax, shouldn't require hiring a group of violonists to call it.
This post has been edited by ck3D: 11 December 2025 - 10:32 AM
- Music Producer
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#23 Posted 11 December 2025 - 10:48 AM
ck3D, on 11 December 2025 - 10:11 AM, said:
'Naive' is the trait of being oblivious to something, 'game language' should be self-explanatory, 'mistake' I have already explained; it's very neutral a phrase, just like a flat tire is a flat tire and hot wax hot wax, shouldn't require hiring a group of violonists to call it.
BTW @CK3D I just discovered the meaning of your avatar picture. I love it
#24 Posted 11 December 2025 - 09:19 PM
Haven't played this map, but this thread sucks big donkey balls. Lots of garbage posts, meanwhile map discussion about great releases from the past spawn zero attention.
All of you suck, without exception.
All of you suck, without exception.
#25 Posted 12 December 2025 - 01:57 AM
Hehe, the map is a throwback and even the discussion feels like the 00's AMC forums.
But yeah, I think everyone said what they wanted now, let's move on.
But yeah, I think everyone said what they wanted now, let's move on.
- Music Producer
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#26 Posted 12 December 2025 - 05:16 PM
NNC, on 11 December 2025 - 09:19 PM, said:
Haven't played this map, but this thread sucks big donkey balls. Lots of garbage posts, meanwhile map discussion about great releases from the past spawn zero attention.
All of you suck, without exception.
All of you suck, without exception.
Yeah totally agree I suck. In fact I kind of find all of this kind of amusing
#27 Posted 15 December 2025 - 11:12 PM
I really liked this map and it's somewhat bizarre location. It had a throwback vibe and I don't feel like I was confused with any of the switches or doors really throughout the map... There was one in the cafeteria area where one opened a door back to the start of the area where the other didn't do anything (though there was an atomic health by it). Besides that, none really jumped out to me. The battles where pretty balanced and I liked the multiple paths.
It's a bummer that there was a bit of headbutting in the discussion on it... It's a fun map that doesn't really follow modern mapping norms.. it works for someone like me who likes these old school type maps but I can see how it wouldn't be the case for others who want a more modern approach to duke mapping.
What's the meaning of it? I'm not even sure how to search what it could be!
It's a bummer that there was a bit of headbutting in the discussion on it... It's a fun map that doesn't really follow modern mapping norms.. it works for someone like me who likes these old school type maps but I can see how it wouldn't be the case for others who want a more modern approach to duke mapping.
Mike Norvak, on 11 December 2025 - 10:48 AM, said:
BTW @CK3D I just discovered the meaning of your avatar picture. I love it
What's the meaning of it? I'm not even sure how to search what it could be!
#28 Posted 16 December 2025 - 10:36 AM
slacker1, on 15 December 2025 - 11:12 PM, said:
I really liked this map and it's somewhat bizarre location. It had a throwback vibe and I don't feel like I was confused with any of the switches or doors really throughout the map... There was one in the cafeteria area where one opened a door back to the start of the area where the other didn't do anything (though there was an atomic health by it). Besides that, none really jumped out to me. The battles where pretty balanced and I liked the multiple paths.
It's a bummer that there was a bit of headbutting in the discussion on it... It's a fun map that doesn't really follow modern mapping norms.. it works for someone like me who likes these old school type maps but I can see how it wouldn't be the case for others who want a more modern approach to duke mapping.
What's the meaning of it? I'm not even sure how to search what it could be!
It's a bummer that there was a bit of headbutting in the discussion on it... It's a fun map that doesn't really follow modern mapping norms.. it works for someone like me who likes these old school type maps but I can see how it wouldn't be the case for others who want a more modern approach to duke mapping.
What's the meaning of it? I'm not even sure how to search what it could be!
Thanks slacker!
- Music Producer
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#29 Posted 11 January 2026 - 01:34 PM
slacker1, on 15 December 2025 - 11:12 PM, said:
I really liked this map and it's somewhat bizarre location. It had a throwback vibe and I don't feel like I was confused with any of the switches or doors really throughout the map... There was one in the cafeteria area where one opened a door back to the start of the area where the other didn't do anything (though there was an atomic health by it). Besides that, none really jumped out to me. The battles where pretty balanced and I liked the multiple paths.
It's a bummer that there was a bit of headbutting in the discussion on it... It's a fun map that doesn't really follow modern mapping norms.. it works for someone like me who likes these old school type maps but I can see how it wouldn't be the case for others who want a more modern approach to duke mapping.
What's the meaning of it? I'm not even sure how to search what it could be!
It's a bummer that there was a bit of headbutting in the discussion on it... It's a fun map that doesn't really follow modern mapping norms.. it works for someone like me who likes these old school type maps but I can see how it wouldn't be the case for others who want a more modern approach to duke mapping.
What's the meaning of it? I'm not even sure how to search what it could be!
I'm pretty sure ck3d wants to keep it a secret, but if you look carefully it's an stretched text..
#30 Posted 16 January 2026 - 09:58 PM
Congrats on your first release! I can tell, you have what it takes to make some really awesome maps. Your attention to detail, shading, texturing and architecture are solid. You definitely have an artistic eye.
Here's another location where you can find your map on display: https://www.dukemaps.net/7ghub/
Here's another location where you can find your map on display: https://www.dukemaps.net/7ghub/
This post has been edited by Paul B: 16 January 2026 - 10:01 PM
