[eniojr]

In this topic I'll share what things could or should have been different in Duke Nukem 3D since I bought this game.

This is also a place for other people to share thoughts about what should have been done or not in the game. I want to know what other people think about this subject.

Let's start with that image, that's in game intro and box cover:



And also this other image:



Since the start, since I started playing this game around 1997, I think some things are controversial.


Machinegun:

Me thinks that in the game, the Chaingun should have been more similar to that in the cover, because that strange machinegun in the image is very badass, as if it was a more sophisticated version of the pistol.



The game also should have kept the Photon Gun (Plasma weapon) of previous beta versions.

Like this one. Ok, Legacy have that, but should have been in the original game. When I bought the game, I saw this weapon in an image in the back cover, but it was frustrating that wasn't in the game.

To me, if something is in a game cover or intro, it should be in the gameplay too.


Flamethrower:



This also should have been in the original game. Maybe not using the same Freezer texture... Or maybe it could have been a weapon with 2 fire modes (fire and ice). THAT would be amazing.


Enforcer gun:

Duke Nukem should have been able to use the Lizman weapon. This was made in Kickass mod, but that should be in the original game.


Pistol:

The game could have a laser pistol, since there are so many Liztroops. Instead, they spawn pistol ammo. Or there should have been a laser pistol or the pistol itself could shoot laser.

Ok, this was done in some mods such as Duke Plus and Kickass, but it should be in the original.


Taser and Knee:



The Knee weapon is ok, because it allows you to kick aliens asses, but the Taser should have been kept and could use the same ammunition as that old plasma cannon.
The plasma cannon shoot an electric projectile, while the taser could be like an electric baton to immobilize the enemy for a short time.


Weapons:

The weapon list could have been like this in the original game:

0th weapon: Knee (the knee could be used through some button other than the used for primary and secondary modes). With that you could kick using any weapon!

1st weapon: Taser and Chainsaw (chainsaw similar to that of Doom);

2nd weapon: Laser pistol (that weapon from liztroops with 2 fire modes, one for single attack and the second for a charged attack);

3rd weapon: Pistol and Chaingun (the chaingun being equal to that in the cover art);

4th weapon: Shotgun (that same of the original game but with a secondary fire like in Legacy);

5th weapon: Plasma Cannon (from beta versions with those 2 fire modes);

6th weapon: RPG (with a secondary attack mode for atomic ammunition);

7th weapon: Shrinker and Expander;

8th weapon: Freezer and Flamethrower (both could be the same weapon but with 2 fire modes, one for ice and the other for flame);

9th weapon: Devastator and Minigun (the minigun could be that of Lizman or Battlelord, in that a secondary firemode could shoot mortars);

10th weapon: Pipebomb and Tripbomb (this would be a slot for strategic weapons).


Scenario and the nuclear theme:

The background image as well the bonus image suggests a post-apocalyptic environment, such as destroyed streets and buildings.

The presence of a nuclear detonation in the background should make it clear the game have nuclear explosions.

Ok, there are many explosions and some reactors in the game, but not nuclear or at least that wasn't much explored. There's only one level that explored that a bit, that is Critical Mass.

To me the game could have explored that feature more, which was unique in that epoch. Not only in terms of destruction, but also the scenario.

I mean, the levels could have a more destroyed city environment, with red skies and not that boring night city texture. The game should have more destroyed scenario and more radioactive waste.

I always thought the game could have a nuclear weapon. The RPG could have been THAT weapon, in which a secondary attack used a scarce nuclear ammunition, as happens in Shadow Warrior.

Even the belt of Duke Nukem have an atomic symbol. That aspect could have been explored in a more interesting way (as a powerup for example, not just the steroids).

So yes, I think the game should have been more radioactive and post-apocalyptic in general than actually was!


Monsters:

The monsters overall are OK, but I thought that they could have been a bit bigger and more intimidating. I'm not considering the mods here.

The Pigcop insstead of a transformed policemen, as a big brutal savage boar who would make strong meele attack, a bit taller than Duke.

The Octabrain could have been twice it's size and more intimidating, firing projectiles in 360°. Instead of biting, they could damage you using a different mental power when near them.

The Octabrain also could have been able to put those eggs, with greenslimers with them.

That beta octabrain (Jelly) could have benn kept and could focus on electrical meele attacks, using their tentacles. The hug of death...

The Enforcer is ok, but the ones from beta versions should have been kept. One firing bullets, another firing flames and the other firing plasma.

The game could have another enemy that used shotgun, maybe a bigger variant of the liztrooper?

The Commander and Drone are ok. But that drone from lameduke should have been kept. That Snake Head could also have been kept, as a weaker drone.

Both egg and greenslimer are ok too. But that spider from Duke Nukem 2 could have been kept, as an enemy that could immobilize you.

The Rotategun is ok, but that organtic should have been kept too, so the game would have an alien turret.

Those robot trooper and captain could have been kept from Lameduke, as being a robotized variation of the liztroop and lizman, maybe with different features.

The Riot Tank is ok, but that Scorpion Tank should have been kept.

The Newbeast is ok. I prefer to call it Ripperbeast.

The bosses are alright the way they are already. But they could have had a bigger HP, so more time of action.

That unused DummyDuke of 0.99 beta version could be not a boss, but rather a strong clone of Duke made by aliens. It could have been an interesting miniboss.

At last, there should have been a main alien species that created all the others, as mutants, not true native aliens, but rather alien creations.

Or maybe another main alien villain (could be a Rigelatin), as the Cycloid Emperor being not the alien emperor, but as an alien tank-like weapon.


Civilians:

I also think the game could have had more civilians, both stationary and moveable. I know that in the plot most people are dead, but even in a post-apocalyptic scenario there are still a lot of people around.

And also the game could have had at least more of those dancing women and clubs, because that is one of the main features of the game.

This is one of the main themes of the game that were barely explored for my taste.


Conclusion:

So, overall the game was good and have an original concept when it was released, but there are many things I still think that lacks in the original game since from the start, without mods.

I mean, the game is good, but to me it's kinda of incomplete in many aspects.

I know the computers in 1996 had much fewer memory, but the game could have been much better if it wasn't optimized to run in 486, but rather in Pentium computers with a bit more memory.

I mean, if Duke Nukem 3D was made to run in the same computers used by the developers at the time, it's likely that it would be much better.

And maybe had an even greater impact in the game industry?


Now I want to know what you guys think about this subject. In what aspects this game could have been any different?

[UltravoxSapphire]

So, in short, Beta is Betta?

[eniojr]

In short, not exactly, depends much on what you think is good enough or not.

Hmm... Not that everything in beta is better. There are things that I saw in some videos that look a bit akward or not well done or unfinished (because it's not the final game), but there are many things that could have been kept.

But other concepts of the game should have been better explored with more depth, like the post-apocalyptic scenario and all things related to radiation, atomic bomb and mutation.

For example, in version 0.909, there was a powerup that made Duke drunk and while drunk he was invincible. In addition to all those variations of weapons and ammunition.

I like the concept that was being developed when Duke Nukem 3D was still Lameduke, but the developers could have taken advantage and put it into the new directive. Or if it was developed as a DLC for the game at the time.

But a DLC would never came out, since the developers were still making Shadow Warrior and Duke Nukem Forever was almost only an idea at the time, in 1996.

Lameduke was Duke Nukem 3D before the alien invasion theme. It was like a direct continuation of Duke Nukem 2. If the game took Lameduke direction, the game would be in a futuristic cyberpunk scenario.

But I also think it would be less popular if was made that way only. If the engine was still the same of Lameduke if the game were released, it would only be another "Tekwar" game.

Ok, I have to admit that the alien invasion theme is very popular and appealing. But something should have been kept, like the futuristic scenario thing with cyborgs.

It could be a mix between alien invasion and futurism. That would be badass!

Speaking about cyborgs, Dr. Proton should have returned in Duke Nukem 3D, but not necessarily as the final boss, more like an anti-hero that would be using the aliens to it's own domination plans.

I think I saw that in Alien Armageddon, but I'm talking about the original game, not considering much the mods here.

Much of Duke Nukem beta content was good enough to be kept in the registered version. Sounds, enemies and weapons.

Regarding maps, some of them had more things and rooms than the registered version, like E1L1, E1L2, E1L3, E2L1 and E2L8 as far as I know.

Some musics are also a bit better in beta. All that Adlib melody style... I like it.


Here's the plot that was being developed on Lameduke stage:



To me, Duke Nukem 3D should have been a mix of the 2 plots (something inbetween the two): futurism, and alien invasion. Both appear to be compatible.


Here's one very interesting video about the beta versions of Hotel Hell:


Now I know how the GEV vehicle textures should be used!


The big problem is that the developers were focusing much in the shareware version in later versions, and because of that, much content was cut.

They also wanted to optimize the game in order to run in 486 computers. One of the main reasons to cut content. Shame!

So, not everything in beta versions of games is good, but much could have been kept.

Another example is that leaked ROTT beta. Some cool textures and enemy variations were cut in the final game.


In conclusion: In my honest opinion, all those beta versions should be released and a very big new mod be made combining things from the best beta versions with the registered version...

If that happened, I think Marcos would be the first to be interested in developing such mod! Ok, that already happened, but I'm talking about having access to REAL unreleased beta content!

If that happened, man, we would have one of the best mods ever made for Duke Nukem 3D!


Regarding beta theme, combine Legacy and Metal Future and we will have one of the greatest mods EVER!


Even better... Combine Legacy, Metal Future and most of the cool gameplay features from the most recent mods like Alien Armageddon and you'll end up having one of the top mods ever made!


I'm also interested in Metal Future development, aside from Legacy. I saw some videos of that in Discord and it's getting very interesting.

[UltravoxSapphire]

eniojr, on 07 April 2025 - 05:24 PM, said:

Regarding beta theme, combine Legacy and Metal Future and we will have one of the greatest mods EVER!


Even better... Combine Legacy, Metal Future and most of the cool gameplay features from the most recent mods like Alien Armageddon and you'll end up having one of the top mods ever made!

[eniojr]

Is that a bad idea?

Combine the plot and features of Metal Future, combine what Legacy broght in terms of gameplay and combine with the numerous features Dan Gaskill made until his most recent mod and surelly we will have one of the BEST mods ever.

If there was a mod made by a team of you, Marcos and Dan Gaskill, I'm sure that will end up with something that even could be a new Duke Nukem game in theory.

What I'm trying to say is that this could be a recreation of Duke Nukem 3D, something better than what 3D Realms developers did in 1996, but being a mod, not really a new game.

This surely have a big potential. I can se that far away!

At least I would love to see such combination.

[eniojr]

But going back to this topic subject... Since I started playing this game I felt something was missing from the start.

Something very cool that was cut from the game or that was not much explored. And some of those missing things were in the pictures in the CD box as a hint (The CD box of 1.3D version).

Now that I saw some of those leaked beta videos and material, I know now.

And I think that now is the time to bring all these cool lost things back.

To where it should always have been, in the registered version.

To me Duke Nukem 3D game was cut in half.

What most people know about Duke Nukem 3D is only a small part of what was conceived in it's development.

Only half of that ended in the final game.

It's time to explore those lost features and bring them back.


Here's what was in Duke Nukem 3D CD box:



The hint of what was missing was already there to me, since I bought this game in 1997.



Conclusion: Since the first betas, much of the content was cut in the final version. About half of the game ESSENCE!

The ideal is to bring back everything that was cut and lost and combine with the features of the final version, as well features from some mods like AA.

Lots of potential here... To make something even better than Duke Nukem Forever!

That's why I think mods like Legacy and Metal Future have a good potential!

Because they can bring some of these lost things into the game.

To make Duke Nukem 3D 100% this time.



To finish, Duke Nukem 3D in it's final version is only HALF of what SHOULD HAVE BEEN!

It's not a matter of beta being betta, but a matter that half of the game was CUT!

Here's my verdict on this.

[UltravoxSapphire]

eniojr, on 08 April 2025 - 01:21 PM, said:

Is that a bad idea?

Very much so, yes.

eniojr, on 08 April 2025 - 01:21 PM, said:

Combine the plot and features of Metal Future, combine what Legacy broght in terms of gameplay and combine with the numerous features Dan Gaskill made until his most recent mod and surelly we will have one of the BEST mods ever.

If there was a mod made by a team of you, Marcos and Dan Gaskill, I'm sure that will end up with something that even could be a new Duke Nukem game in theory.

While I appreciate the compliment, you really overestimate my abilities (not to mention my status in this community) by putting me on the same level as Marcolino and Dan. A collaboration between just the two of them? Yeah, that would work if it were to happen, but add me to the mix and it'd not take long for something to go awry.

[eniojr]

Quote

While I appreciate the compliment, you really overestimate my abilities (not to mention my status in this community) by putting me on the same level as Marcolino and Dan. A collaboration between just the two of them? Yeah, that would work if it were to happen, but add me to the mix and it'd not take long for something to go awry.

The thing is... I don't care shit about status. I really don't care! Maybe that's why I might appear strange to some people here... aside from the fact that I tend to write a lot and maybe have some "crazy" ideas.

Not everyone should do the coding thing... You don't have to do the hard coding thing, since you abandoned the CON to DECORATE. You could participate in relation to the ideas to be implemented. You could be that guy that work in the creative section.

Tom Hall for example was originally the creative director and designer for Doom. I'm not comparing you to Tom Hall, but that's just an idea.

Talking about Tom Hall, that Doom Bible seems very cool to me and maybe Doom would be more interesting in that way, having more characters, a history and maybe some more background.

In fact, he used some contents of his Doom Bible to make Rise of the Triad! ID Software in that epoch only cared about a fast killing game without a story. But to me they were mistaken.

If I made part of a game developing team, I could be that creative guy of the team... For a next Duke Nukem game... Just kidding! Couldn't resist.

A team that makes a big game have many sections... The director, the guy for music (Lee Jackson for example), the guy for sound effect, the creative guy, the artist guy, the animation guy, the coding guy, the vendor guy, etc.

You could be the creative type in such team, I think.

I don't care about status. To me, you had a good idea to make a mod about something I like, exploring cut content from Duke Nukem in your own mod. That's what matters to me. Even if it's for Doom!

For mods, the majority tend to be made by a single person, but some are made by a small team. You could share you creative ideas.

I don't know if that would work in real life, but it's an interesting possibility.

From what I've saw in Discord, Metal Future show an interesting concept, kinda inventive. An alternative version of Duke Nukem 3D that was never released.

In some aspects it even looks more similar to a Duke Nukem beta than Legacy... Such as the status bar.

The music is also different. Music in Legacy is more heavy metal, but in Metal Future is more similar to those old Adlib style that I prefer.

In that unnoficial expansion I'm making to be played using Legacy (Rise of Duke Nukem) with my custom levels, the music will be more Adlib/DOS style.

The music in main menu is that menu music of Duke Nukem 2 and the loading screen music is that same of Duke Nukem 2 too.

You might not be a good coder, but the idea of your mod is good enough to me.

[eniojr]

Getting back to the subject... I can show that Duke Nukem 3D, when it was released, was actually only half of the game, or rather, half of what could have been done. Everything that was cut in relation to Lameduke and similar versions like the one that appears in a video where there is a championship already counts as 1/4 of the content. The rest was everything that was cut since version 0.909, which accounts for another 1/4 of the content.

This adds up to half of the content that was cut up to version 1.3D.

Not to mention what could have been explored in relation to certain themes or symbols of the game that were not properly explored. This means that, for me, the game was only 25% done, despite the game being perfectly functional and having been very popular. In other words, the Duke Nukem 3D that everyone knows would be only 25% of what could have been developed if it weren't for the limitations of the time.

The game's cover and the bonus scene suggest that something else is missing or that something was done differently than it should have been. Just like in that image I shared where there are several scenes on the back of the game box that are not in the game. This was very frustrating for me. Promising things that are not actually in the game is frustrating, to say the least. Promising in interviews is one thing, but on the cover of the released game itself? No excuses!

Okay, I know this was 27 years ago, but it is something that left its mark, for a Duke Nukem fan.

Even though the developers considered the game complete, from everything I noticed at the time and today, that is not the case. I am not blaming the developers for this, especially because they had to cut out a lot of things that were developed in the game over time, due to the limitations of the computers of the time. Oh, the lack of RAM, the FPS problem... And the need to popularize the game to run on the 486.

If it weren't for this, the game would be much better than it was, without a shadow of a doubt!

But nowadays we have infinitely more powerful computers, so we can rescue practically everything that was cut from the game, as long as we had direct access to all the beta versions since the first one, and then make if not a new reinvented Duke Nukem 3D, at least we could make a mod even bigger than Legacy itself, including all the best features of modern mods, in addition to exploring what has not yet been done...

That would really breathe new life into the game and the franchise I think!

I know that saying that Duke Nukem 3D is 25% or 50% of what could have been done sounds absurd to many people, but I'm sure that for those who have all the beta versions of the game in their hands, that this is true in a way.

From all the material from these versions that I've seen so far, I'm sure there's some truth to that.

I'm not forcing anyone to release such files, but imagine if it could be done?

[eniojr]

Just one thing to make it clear...

When I say that the game is only 25% done, I'm not actually denigrating the game, quite the opposite. What I mean by that is that a lot of what could have been done in the game wasn't done in my opinion. This means that, for me, there is a lot that needs to be explored in relation to the game's theme, the franchise is not dead (for me).

In other words, there is still a lot to be added or filled. And that's cool, because it's a reason to keep creating content and playing the franchise, instead of if everything that should have been done had already been done, because then there would be no motivation to create more and the franchise could already be dead in that case.

Yes, there are indeed many good mods that I really enjoyed, such as Attrition, Duke Plus, Duke Forces, Alien Armageddon, Legacy, AMC Squad, Kickass, among many others that I've played over the years. The thing is that most mods are based on what was done in the original game, without taking into account what was cut from the game or, in my opinion, should have been better explored.

Kickass managed to explore the weapons well. Despite having many more weapons than in the original game, this mod managed to do it in a way that made the weapons more faithful to the franchise's theme. One of them is the Blaster that shoots radiation and the nuclear RPG. These two weapons fit very well with the game's symbolism, at least with that symbol of the game, the trefoil.

Legacy, on the other hand, managed to bring to the game what was cut during development, which for me was already a great achievement. I even made a point of bringing some "improvements" on my own in my expansion. As for Alien Armageddon and other great mods, despite having made interesting weapons, many ended up kind of straying a bit from the theme, despite having been very well done and fun.

For me, what the game lacks without considering mods in relation to weapons is basically: atomic bomb, acid gun, radioactive explosive, laser and some other weapons from Legacy and Kickass. Regarding monsters, what is missing are certain enemies from Legacy and AA (zombies, terminator and Dr. Proton), besides that some more types of monsters could have been included in the original game.

A few have done this like Legacy and there is Metal Future despite it being aimed at a mod for Doom, but I still don't disregard it for that. I don't care about status crap or if you are good at coding. What matters above all is the idea and motivation. If it weren't for that, the franchise would truly be dead. These ideas of status and credentials for me only inhibit creativity and the creation of new mods.

Which conveniently ends up favoring a small bubble...

Despite what was done in all these mods, including Legacy, I still feel that something is missing, and that's what made me make my expansion for Legacy, based on this creative motivation. Everything will depend on how skilled I can be to add new content and maps. I'll do it to my limit. Both in relation to what was cut from the game and in relation to what could have been better explored.


I'm going to vent here... about something that's time to say...

The big problem with mods is that in Duke Nukem 3D and others that use BUILD, there's no way to combine different mods like you can in Doom, so to add things to the game you end up having to create several large and incompatible mods. Another problem is that since there are few people who know the CON language well, there are few who can make a mod that isn't based on something specific. I mean, mods that practically recreate the game like AA, Legacy, AMC Squad, AWOL and Demon Throne, which are excellent.

Also, there is little information on how to make a ton of features and when these are made by skilled programmers, because of the difficulty and lack of information, the creators end up demanding to be credited (and they are not wrong for that). Also, the audience that plays Duke Nukem 3D is relatively small. All of this combined makes it very difficult to create new mods beyond the bubble of those who created the most complex and popular mods.

In other words, if you are outside this bubble and are not that skilled, you end up being frowned upon and will have more difficulty getting help, as happened to me. This can end up being bad for the reputation of the newbie for no apparent reason.

I don't believe this is the best way to create content. Since the community is small and the coding information is limited and unpopular, I would bet more on free sharing and shared effort than on copyright.

Even more so when it comes to free projects...

For me, all this competitiveness and silent suspicions is what could end up killing the franchise.

Especially nowadays when most gamers don't know much about Duke Nukem or don't enjoy the style of the franchise.

I don't want to offend or upset anyone but... it seems to me that this is true.

But that's just my opinion on the matter, my rant about it.

I'm not talking about this to benefit myself, but because I'm a little worried about the future of the franchise.

[Aleks]

The only thing I would change would be adding mini-Overlords and mini-Cycloids Emperors (also mini-Queens) similar to how battlelord sentries work.

@Slap, I think I've just noticed - or it just occurred to me - what's on your avatar. Brilliant, certainly the best Cronenberg movie!

[NNC]

The flamethrower and the enforcer variants used it should have been kept. Apparently devs agreed, they added it in World Tour.

Spacesuits should have been kept for some places in the game (like in Fusion Station, Lunar Reactor, Dark Side).

Episode 2 boss should have been used in miniboss form, with weaker rockets (the ones used by the commander). Mini Battlelord chaingun should have been slightly weaker though for better combat scenarios and depth. In the current way, mini Battlelords are annoying as fuck.

I think they should have worked in the monster AI too, some monsters move too much (like pigcops, enforcers) and often to unnecessary places.

Red liztroop respawn should have worked, and reconcar respawn too.

Doom style awakening and monster infighting would have been great.

But above all: they shouldn't have abandon the game after Atomic Edition. More maps with true ROR added or some shit from Shadow Warrior like the controllable vehicles would have made the game even better.

[eniojr]

They should have made a mix between Lameduke and the final version. I mean, an alien invasion but in a futuristic cyberpunk setting. That would allow things of Lameduke in the final version. In fact, both Duke Nukem 1 and 2 are in a futuristic setting, not in present time. Duke Nukem 3D should have kept that theme. In the add-on I'm making, I'll try to bring this futuristic setting to the game. Also, the levels should have been a bit more apocalyptic, I mean, the city scenario a bit more destroyed. That would give e real feeling of alien invasion theme, not just enemies in map. I'm also working on that too. The levels I'll make will be a mix of features of the original levels with more things, including a more destroyed environment.

[Aleks]

Whilst the futuristic and dystopian theme in Lameduke can look interesting and tempting now, I think moving away from it during the release of Duke 3D was one of the main factors that contributed to its huge success. There has been plenty of games in futuristic/abstract surroundings, but the thing that Duke offered were familiar, pseudo-realistic environments you could explore that felt much more relatable to people. Even things which are kind of depreciated or overlooked today, like the destructible everyday items, ability to use the toilet or tip a stripper and Duke throwing in his one-liners not to be a completely anonymous character, did factor in a lot more than imagined today. It can be difficult (or impossible) to properly decouple and dissect the innovative elements of the game through the nostalgia glasses and obviously will also be affected by when an individual first encountered it and their prior experience, but looking at it as someone who first played the game as a kid in the 90s and got enchanted enough to still be able to look back on it 30 years later, this seem to be the most direct conclusions I can draw.

It also somehow explains Lunar Apocalypse being underappreciated or seen as 'acquired taste', as it does not feel as relatable as the other episodes...

[eniojr]

I know that the released game was a success, even to me that was original! The other game I had before was Rise of the Triad. It was a huge difference at the time.

Talking about ROTT, DN3D should had some features of ROTT (powerups and flying discs for example).

I was talking about a distopian futuristic scenario where the world was invaded by aliens. In this scenario, Duke would still exist the way he is. It would still have the 80's or 90's references in a futuristic scenario. But no today's references though.

It would be more like a retro futuristic game, based on the 80's and 90's culture, not today's culture.

What I imagine in this scenario was simply the game in a big city like L.A. (better, Neo Los Angeles as in DN2) but mostly destroyed and with more dangerous environmental sectors, with some buildings still mostly intact like nightclub and some other types.

Also, I imagine a scenario where the nuclear radiation thing is more present in weapons and places.

For example, I turned that RPG BLASTER of Legacy mod in a true nuclear weapon, as well the Pipebomb that now also release toxic gas and have small nuclear explosion.

Even the black shotgun causes small explosions. I'm exploring this kind of thing in the game, to fill what is empty to my taste.

In fact it wouldn't be much different from the actual game, but darker and intense. The game would have a bit darker and heavier theme than it already was. Much action too obviously. And women too, even if using futuristic clothes... or maybe not.

It would be mostly the same, but in a slight different way. Just imagine an alternative version of Duke Nukem 3D.

Also, I imagine how would be the game if Apogee kept that name instead of turning into 3D realms. If Duke Nukem 3D was made by Apogee, not 3D realms.

Don't think would be that much different, since Apogee and 3D realms had almost the same team of developers.

I also modified the intro to put Apogee logo with it's music (music from DN2 and image from ROTT) instead of 3D Realms to see how would look.

It looked marvelous, epic!

And today I had a dream where in a scene I was holding a new Duke Nukem game box with a black background and many golden lines, with images of the game. Many explosions in the images, hehe.

A premonition? Nah... Don't think so!

[Doom64hunter]

eniojr, on 08 April 2025 - 02:00 PM, said:

To finish, Duke Nukem 3D in it's final version is only HALF of what SHOULD HAVE BEEN!

It's not a matter of beta being betta, but a matter that half of the game was CUT!

Cool, but that's completely wrong. Thanks for posting.

[eniojr]

Quote

Cool, but that's completely wrong. Thanks for posting.

How that's wrong? I saw many things in leaked videos and images that are not in the final version, even in the box when I bought the game.

I've also read that many things had to be cut to improve performance, to allow low memory 486 computers run the game, to make the game more popular.

If you count much of was cut from Lameduke to the final version, much content was cut.

Some was added in a hurry, but much cool content was cut.

I think a big problem here is when game developers show how a game will be showing beta content and when the final version comes, much that was showed before not being in the game.

This may cause frustrations. At least that happened to me.

And that's what happened to Duke Nukem 3D!

That's why I like much adding beta content to the game, to make it feel more complete.

To me, the first time I played the game, I felt something was missing but couldn't know what exactly.

Now I know.

[Doom64hunter]

The game constantly changed throughout its development. There was never any big original vision of what it was "supposed" to be.

Duke Nukem 3D, as it released, was finished. There is no "should have been".

[Merlijn]

 Aleks, on 27 April 2025 - 01:49 AM, said:

Whilst the futuristic and dystopian theme in Lameduke can look interesting and tempting now, I think moving away from it during the release of Duke 3D was one of the main factors that contributed to its huge success. There has been plenty of games in futuristic/abstract surroundings, but the thing that Duke offered were familiar, pseudo-realistic environments you could explore that felt much more relatable to people. Even things which are kind of depreciated or overlooked today, like the destructible everyday items, ability to use the toilet or tip a stripper and Duke throwing in his one-liners not to be a completely anonymous character, did factor in a lot more than imagined today. It can be difficult (or impossible) to properly decouple and dissect the innovative elements of the game through the nostalgia glasses and obviously will also be affected by when an individual first encountered it and their prior experience, but looking at it as someone who first played the game as a kid in the 90s and got enchanted enough to still be able to look back on it 30 years later, this seem to be the most direct conclusions I can draw.

It also somehow explains Lunar Apocalypse being underappreciated or seen as 'acquired taste', as it does not feel as relatable as the other episodes...

That was also my experience, Duke 3D stood out from other shooters thanks to its recognizable urban environments. Instead of a collection of abstract rooms and corridors, it felt like you were visiting actual places (even though it's only pseudo realistic, it was enough to sell the locations).

As for what could have been better: as others have mentioned not having mini versions of the other bosses was a missed opportunity. Now the mini battlelord is the only high tier enemy.
In terms of maps/episodes, I feel like some E3 maps could have been fleshed out more. And E2 could have had a better transition from space to the moon base.

But overall the game is what it is and this is mostly just nitpicking

[ck3D]

Merlijn, on 11 May 2025 - 03:17 AM, said:

That was also my experience, Duke 3D stood out from other shooters thanks to its recognizable urban environments.

Slightly offtopic but I tend to have a seemingly hot take about this precisely, I know it's common (almost pedestrian) to chant how 'realistic' Build was compared to DooM (maybe even Quake; in spite of the sprites, because of the strong urban and thus mundanely relatable theming) but I find it more accurate to refer to how good it was at suggestion instead. At the heart of it it really is an abstract engine that is capable of normally impossible geometry thanks to the 2.5D and SOS. Thus it is hyperflexible with form and so the true appeal I think lies in the curiosity of precisely how, in which ways and using which techniques a mapper can sculpt into the chaos and manage to craft recognizable structures that eventually do convey exactly what they are supposed to convey and, when the mapper is really good, exactly how they are supposed to be conveyed. On the building textures, the windows are essentially painted on like it's a Looney Tunes world, different floors can coexist in space, and water teleports you, there is nothing realistic about that but how it's sold. It is the style and the artistic touch, otherwise if realism really were what Duke/Build players are after (whether or not they know it) then they would all have moved on to the latest Unreal engines where mapping out entire cities by scanning Google Maps might as well be a mere afterthought. In comparison, Build maps are full-on wacky playgrounds and absolutely abstract until the mapper decides exactly how they are not.

This isn't meant to contradict the point you were supporting by the way, but to continue it.

[lllllllllllllll]

The moon missions aren't as disconnected as they appear. What connects them is mostly eyecandy that gets overlooked.
For instance at the end of Spaceport if you look out the right window you see a facility in the distance (but mistextured from Incubator's entrance). The opening of Incubator implies the exit of Spaceport was a form of shuttle.

Incubator ends in the red exit which is obviously the entrance to Warp Factor but it's not to be taken at face value as an elevator. Looking out at space from inside Warp Factor (maybe I'm stupid) gives you the gist of the facility's shape but in mapster it is clearly a ship- to which the red elevator was more like beaming in. Similarly the two elevators that split the red halls from the inner loop are implied to move diagnol-horrizontal. The shape of the ship is close to the one that is circling Spaceport which I assume is one in the same. This ship that is Warp Factor is the means of traveling to Fusion Station.

Fusion Station's ending doesn't really offer direction but the spawn area of Occupied Territory resembles an alien porter which I will again assume Fusion Station's exit was a teleportation device since it somewhat resembles a seat or console.

Occupied Territory's exit is a vaguely green room covered in corruption. The beginning of Tiberius is that walled-off room partially overtaken by corruption with only a ventilation duct connecting it to the map. Seeing that I think the room is a form of pod for junk or cargo, like a larger version of a space coffin. But if that is the case it is strange Duke would spend the journey next to a handful of unhatched eggs. Going by skybox Occupied Territory is significantly further from the moon than Tiberius so they are absolutely unconnected physically.
Then again it would not make sense for a container to be attached by vent, but the vents throughout Tiberius have the shutters that open with access keys though no such shutter is drawn at the starting vent. Note that Lunar Reactor has this same system of vent shutters opening with access keys.

The ending of Tiberius Station is a room that matches the start of Lunar Reactor. Going by skybox Tiberius Station is situated just above the moon's surface because you can see the bottom of the skybox. This matches Lunar Reactor, but Lunar Reactor has a rock section though it is completely sealed and is a chasm. So I think Lunar Reactor is built into an asteroid close to the moon or it is a part 2 of Tiberius Station (and both are built into an asteroid which would explain the texture choice for destructible parts of Tiberius).



Dark Side demonstrates you have reached the moon's surface right at the beginning so presumably the exit of Lunar Reactor was a transport getting you to the moon base. The double doors are constructed a lot like Spaceport's exit.

[eniojr]

Quote

The moon missions aren't as disconnected as they appear. What connects them is mostly eyecandy that gets overlooked.
For instance at the end of Spaceport if you look out the right window you see a facility in the distance (but mistextured from Incubator's entrance). The opening of Incubator implies the exit of Spaceport was a form of shuttle.

Incubator ends in the red exit which is obviously the entrance to Warp Factor but it's not to be taken at face value as an elevator. Looking out at space from inside Warp Factor (maybe I'm stupid) gives you the gist of the facility's shape but in mapster it is clearly a ship- to which the red elevator was more like beaming in. Similarly the two elevators that split the red halls from the inner loop are implied to move diagnol-horrizontal. The shape of the ship is close to the one that is circling Spaceport which I assume is one in the same. This ship that is Warp Factor is the means of traveling to Fusion Station.

Fusion Station's ending doesn't really offer direction but the spawn area of Occupied Territory resembles an alien porter which I will again assume Fusion Station's exit was a teleportation device since it somewhat resembles a seat or console.

Occupied Territory's exit is a vaguely green room covered in corruption. The beginning of Tiberius is that walled-off room partially overtaken by corruption with only a ventilation duct connecting it to the map. Seeing that I think the room is a form of pod for junk or cargo, like a larger version of a space coffin. But if that is the case it is strange Duke would spend the journey next to a handful of unhatched eggs. Going by skybox Occupied Territory is significantly further from the moon than Tiberius so they are absolutely unconnected physically.
Then again it would not make sense for a container to be attached by vent, but the vents throughout Tiberius have the shutters that open with access keys though no such shutter is drawn at the starting vent. Note that Lunar Reactor has this same system of vent shutters opening with access keys.

The ending of Tiberius Station is a room that matches the start of Lunar Reactor. Going by skybox Tiberius Station is situated just above the moon's surface because you can see the bottom of the skybox. This matches Lunar Reactor, but Lunar Reactor has a rock section though it is completely sealed and is a chasm. So I think Lunar Reactor is built into an asteroid close to the moon or it is a part 2 of Tiberius Station (and both are built into an asteroid which would explain the texture choice for destructible parts of Tiberius).

Dark Side demonstrates you have reached the moon's surface right at the beginning so presumably the exit of Lunar Reactor was a transport getting you to the moon base. The double doors are constructed a lot like Spaceport's exit.

When I say that the game could have been set in a futuristic setting, I didn't mean a very distant and unrecognizable future. For example, the game could still have been set in Los Angeles and there would have been a lot of recognizable stuff, like the Walk of Fame.

The thing is, the Earth Defense Forces and the space stages seem to me to be something futuristic, and not from our present. There seems to be a contextual disconnect here between the episodes. It doesn't have to be something very far away like Star Wars!

For example, the game could have been set in 2075.

I like it when the stages have a real connection between them. Duke Nukem 3D excelled at this, unlike other games I played before buying it. I just think that the context of the episodes could have been a little different... like this...

Shareware episode: This would be an episode exclusive to the shareware version, which would have a bit of each episode of the game, but without the full content of weapons and enemies.

First episode: Each map as a different neighborhood of Los Angeles. With 11 maps, like the others. Since it's an alien invasion, some maps could be in more destroyed parts of the city. It would be a fusion of L.A. Meltdown, Shrapnel City and The Birth. Each map featuring cinema, nightclub, porn studio, movie set, metro, hotel, etc... all of them with streets, of course.

Boss: Battlelord.

Second episode: Outskirts of Los Angeles. Locations such as a military base, nuclear power plant, factory, underwater station, prison, ship, cave, treatment plant, farm, among others, until reaching a rocket launch station. It could start in the prison and end with a battle near a rocket in a rocket launch facility. It would be an episode with several contexts depending on each map.

Boss: Overlord.

Third episode: All in space, starting in what could be a large space station in the first half. The second half of the episode would be on the Moon, in bases, reactors, caves, etc. The fifth map could take place on an alien mothership (like in Fusion Station). It would end with a battle near a portal inside a lunar cave, but it would be in an underwater part. In some stages, Duke would be exposed to vacuum, requiring him to wear suits.

Boss: Queen.

Fourth episode: It could take place on the aliens' home planet (Rigelatins), in which it would take place in various locations such as a city, cave, reactor, among others, until reaching something like a fortress or castle and then facing the final boss, and in the final cutscenes showing Duke returning to Earth safely. It would be like a combination of the context of the first and second episode but in a complete alien and corrupted environment. Reminding something of Earth, but not being so.

Boss: Cycloid Emperor.

It wouldn't change the essence of the game much and I think it would be cooler or make more sense that way.

[Altered Reality]

Quote

For example, the game could have been set in 2075.

To do that, a time travel plot would've been necessary, because it had already been established that Duke Nukem 1 is set in 1997, and Duke Nukem 2 is a year later = 1998.
Personally, I don't like when time travel is used as an excuse to plop the protagonist into an unfamiliar territory and make him live an adventure there (as opposed to a tool to solve problems). It only goes to show the author has no ideas and resorts to a trite concept.

[Aleks]

lllllllllllllll, on 13 May 2025 - 02:22 PM, said:

The moon missions aren't as disconnected as they appear. What connects them is mostly eyecandy that gets overlooked.
For instance at the end of Spaceport if you look out the right window you see a facility in the distance (but mistextured from Incubator's entrance). The opening of Incubator implies the exit of Spaceport was a form of shuttle.

I completely agree with that, also the green shuttle Duke used to travel to the spaceport is docked at the beginning of the level (where you find the RPG), which kinda connects it to L.A. Meltdown.

Quote

Incubator ends in the red exit which is obviously the entrance to Warp Factor but it's not to be taken at face value as an elevator. Looking out at space from inside Warp Factor (maybe I'm stupid) gives you the gist of the facility's shape but in mapster it is clearly a ship- to which the red elevator was more like beaming in. Similarly the two elevators that split the red halls from the inner loop are implied to move diagnol-horrizontal. The shape of the ship is close to the one that is circling Spaceport which I assume is one in the same. This ship that is Warp Factor is the means of traveling to Fusion Station.

Warp Factor is certainly a ship and certainly Enterprise from Star Trek, although with warp nacelles being accessible. But it is not the same ship that circle Spaceport, that one is an enemy ship and seems vaguely modelled after a Klingon Bird of Prey. But I like the idea about beaming up there.

Quote

Fusion Station's ending doesn't really offer direction but the spawn area of Occupied Territory resembles an alien porter which I will again assume Fusion Station's exit was a teleportation device since it somewhat resembles a seat or console.

I'd say Fusion Station was a distraction when Duke decided to take a hit back at the aliens, but meanwhile they started to occupy the, well... Occupied Territory with the ship where you find the first keycard.

Quote

Occupied Territory's exit is a vaguely green room covered in corruption. The beginning of Tiberius is that walled-off room partially overtaken by corruption with only a ventilation duct connecting it to the map. Seeing that I think the room is a form of pod for junk or cargo, like a larger version of a space coffin. But if that is the case it is strange Duke would spend the journey next to a handful of unhatched eggs. Going by skybox Occupied Territory is significantly further from the moon than Tiberius so they are absolutely unconnected physically.
Then again it would not make sense for a container to be attached by vent, but the vents throughout Tiberius have the shutters that open with access keys though no such shutter is drawn at the starting vent. Note that Lunar Reactor has this same system of vent shutters opening with access keys.

The ending of Tiberius Station is a room that matches the start of Lunar Reactor. Going by skybox Tiberius Station is situated just above the moon's surface because you can see the bottom of the skybox. This matches Lunar Reactor, but Lunar Reactor has a rock section though it is completely sealed and is a chasm. So I think Lunar Reactor is built into an asteroid close to the moon or it is a part 2 of Tiberius Station (and both are built into an asteroid which would explain the texture choice for destructible parts of Tiberius).

Dark Side demonstrates you have reached the moon's surface right at the beginning so presumably the exit of Lunar Reactor was a transport getting you to the moon base. The double doors are constructed a lot like Spaceport's exit.

I'm positive Tiberius Station and Lunar Reactor (well, this one definitely) do take place on the moon already, but even "going out" in E2L7 is within a limited crack at the surface - it is not until Dark Side finale when we really get to experience... full moon.

[lllllllllllllll]

Aleks, on 15 May 2025 - 02:27 PM, said:

But it is not the same ship that circle Spaceport, that one is an enemy ship and seems vaguely modelled after a Klingon Bird of Prey.

That sucks. I don't like seeing enemies that can't be killed.

Aleks, on 15 May 2025 - 02:27 PM, said:

I'm positive Tiberius Station and Lunar Reactor (well, this one definitely) do take place on the moon already, but even "going out" in E2L7 is within a limited crack at the surface - it is not until Dark Side finale when we really get to experience... full moon.

All the windows on Tiberius and Lunar Reactor are the space style ones. It contradicts being in a depth of the moon to find yourself at deep crack like that.
The area right before you drop down to the smashers preceding the chasm has windows looking out into space. Taken at face value the surface of the moon looms far below.
While Lunar Reactor is obviously related to the moon it doesn't have to be on it. If that arm thing in the outdoor part of Dark Side is for the purpose of drawing energy transmission from afar it can explain the reactor being far higher up.

Aleks, on 15 May 2025 - 02:27 PM, said:

but meanwhile they started to occupy the, well... Occupied Territory with the ship where you find the first keycard.

The green area with conveyers?
I never noticed it was a jump from man to alien structure. For that matter I always considered the whole level alien especially because of the battlelord door and a convenient interpretation of occupied.
It makes the cargo thing I said before poorly thought out.


I was going to reorder Fusion Station to be after Occupied Territory but did not expect there can be drastic differences in how some of these maps are viewed. If lorewise the map is at complete odds with what you thought it to be does that kill any point in it?

[eniojr]

What if there was no futuristic context, but just a reorganization of the episodes, with the first one related to the city, the second one to the surroundings, the third one to space and the moon and the fourth one to the aliens' planet?

The idea I have is that the more stages you go through, the further you move away from downtown Los Angeles to increasingly distant locations, only to return to the city at the end of the game.

The ending could be a cutscene or a small extra bonus stage in which there is a celebratory scene.

With the game ending with Duke celebrating his victory at a nightclub.