[Mike Norvak]

DISHOP is a first person shooter in development, the team is looking for investors and will launch a kickstarter soon. So they reached to me to make the music for a series of trailers and shorts. This is the first one:

http://youtu.be/uiWx...V8SpaOUjPJU3e_a

I hope you'll enjoy it!

[MrFlibble]

To be perfectly honest, I'm unable to stomach this kind of visuals at all. There's just too many details, flashy things, shadows and reflective surfaces and stuff that makes every scene a colourful mess.

I would have much preferred an older engine like Q1/Q2 or the original Unreal, without the flashy bells and whistles.

[Mike Norvak]

Thanks for your comment, well that would make the game a retroshooter, which is not the plan for the developer, but I understand where you come from.

On the other hand isn't the market already taken by retroshooters for that matter? Aeon of Wrath, The Last Exterminator, Phantom Fury, Dusk...

[MrFlibble]

Mike Norvak, on 29 February 2024 - 04:00 PM, said:

well that would make the game a retroshooter

Oh, I brought up Q1/2 and Unreal just as examples. I wouldn't mind if the game looked like Serious Sam 3 either, even though I've not played that game and it is much more modern. Yet, the visual aesthetics in Serious Sam 3 (or even in Serious Sam 4, I've just looked up a video of that too) don't give me a feeling of sensory overload or overwhelming amounts of garish colours. Conversely, almost every scene in the trailer has some sort of lens flare or halo from a light source, a mixture of bright colours and shadows and reflective surfaces, as well as motion blur, making it very hard to read what is actually going on.

Also I have to admit that I haven't really figured out what is supposed to be going on in the trailer. The scenes switch between some sort of vaguely looking aliens (?) whose design isn't very interesting IMO (just a side note), and human operatives (?) doing something that does not exactly look like they're fighting to repel the alien invasion, but rather have come to arrest someone? Then there's supposedly the main character who is in a prison cell, then in the next shot he's in full battle gear that resembles an USCM Marine from Aliens, apparently having single-handedly murdered a squad of aliens? or were the riot gear operatives trying to break into his cell and he put them all out? Anyway, his walking animation is really awkward in that scene.

As a matter of fact, some parts of the trailer actually look like they could have come from a 90s game CGI FMV cutscene, minus the high resolution and the true colour palette, come to think of it. But that alone does not endear the project to me, especially since I don't think this was an intended effect.

[Mark]

A bit overkill on the gloss and sparkles but overall I like the looks. From the previous description I was expecting something like Unreal Tournament or Quake 3 on steroids. Great trailer music too.

[Forge]

The music fits the cinematics like a glove

[MrFlibble]

Mark, on 03 March 2024 - 04:35 AM, said:

A bit overkill on the gloss and sparkles but overall I like the looks.

Since I barely play modern FPS games, which released title does this remind you of most?

[Mike Norvak]

MrFlibble, on 02 March 2024 - 12:40 PM, said:

Oh, I brought up Q1/2 and Unreal just as examples. I wouldn't mind if the game looked like Serious Sam 3 either, even though I've not played that game and it is much more modern. Yet, the visual aesthetics in Serious Sam 3 (or even in Serious Sam 4, I've just looked up a video of that too) don't give me a feeling of sensory overload or overwhelming amounts of garish colours. Conversely, almost every scene in the trailer has some sort of lens flare or halo from a light source, a mixture of bright colours and shadows and reflective surfaces, as well as motion blur, making it very hard to read what is actually going on.

Also I have to admit that I haven't really figured out what is supposed to be going on in the trailer. The scenes switch between some sort of vaguely looking aliens (?) whose design isn't very interesting IMO (just a side note), and human operatives (?) doing something that does not exactly look like they're fighting to repel the alien invasion, but rather have come to arrest someone? Then there's supposedly the main character who is in a prison cell, then in the next shot he's in full battle gear that resembles an USCM Marine from Aliens, apparently having single-handedly murdered a squad of aliens? or were the riot gear operatives trying to break into his cell and he put them all out? Anyway, his walking animation is really awkward in that scene.

As a matter of fact, some parts of the trailer actually look like they could have come from a 90s game CGI FMV cutscene, minus the high resolution and the true colour palette, come to think of it. But that alone does not endear the project to me, especially since I don't think this was an intended effect.

Well remember this is an Indie Game in Development with no budget, if you are comparing this teaser to AAA titles probably is a good thing. I'll pass your comments to the developer, feedback is always valuable. All I can do for now is making kick ass music for the trailers!

@Mark and @Forge thank you guys! It was difficult to get the right music at first, but the developer also got to give me great directions for his vision.

[MrFlibble]

Mike Norvak, on 04 March 2024 - 10:10 AM, said:

Well remember this is an Indie Game in Development with no budget, if you are comparing this teaser to AAA titles probably is a good thing. I'll pass your comments to the developer, feedback is always valuable. All I can do for now is making kick ass music for the trailers!

Well, Serious Sam started as an indie game too, didn't it? I'm not really clinging to this dichotomy of AAA versus indie, especially since there are engines like Unity and Unreal that have pretty good capabilities and can produce stuff that looks good in competent hands, regardless of the budget.

I was just pointing out that a) I'm personally not a fan of the flashy lights and the palette/colour choices, which give me a sensory overload and make it hard to read the scenes that are being rendered; I guess this might be partially blamed on the engine, but as I said I don't play modern games that much so I don't have a good benchmark to compare this to, like for example other modern Unreal Engine titles.

And b) I really haven't figured out what is going on in the trailer. Is it some kind of alien invasion? Does it take place on Earth or elsewhere? Are the "aliens" the bad guys? Are the riot gear people the bad guys? What does the prisoner/main character have to do with it? Did he kill the guards and then escape? Why did the riot gear people try to storm his cell (if this is what they were doing)? I can't draw major comparisons here because the kind of FPS games that I play (like Ion Fury or Hands of Necromancy) mostly show gameplay footage in trailers/teasers or at least actual level previews, with some background narration possibly thrown in, as they don't do many cutscenes on the game engine. But I'm pretty certain that if the devs wanted to present some coherent story, they could do this regardless of what their budget is.

So far, I'm mostly confused because the game does not look like anything remotely inspired by Duke Nukem 3D to me, neither visually nor gameplay wise, if the several hundred milliseconds of actual gameplay footage is anything to go by.

Sorry if this may sound a bit harsh, but I was really expecting something different when I read your description and watched the trailer. So far I've no idea what the actual game could be like, because almost nothing has been shown in the teaser, i.e. whether it's gonna be fun to play or what kind of dynamic there is between exploration and combat (e.g., it could be freeform exploration vs. moving from one area filled with enemies to another with no way to revisit previously completed areas). Because of this, I do not have any valid criticisms, or even any opinion on the project, beyond the two points that I've mentioned.

[Mike Norvak]

Well, bear in mind this is a cinematic kind of trailer, not a gamepmay one. All those are valid questions, I don't feel like you are being harsh, altough I'm not the one that can answer them. Except for the story bit (This is from the Dishop page):

"In the year 2063, human civilization teeters on the brink of collapse as the world descends into a devastating chaos, wrought by resource scarcity, relentless warfare, and rampant pollution. However, tragedy reaches new dimensions when an unexpected event ravages the Earth.

An outlaw, sentenced to the death penalty for a series of heinous acts, emerges as his dark past intertwines with the struggle for the survival of all humanity. At the heart of the chaos, the fate of the human race is at stake in a colossal confrontation, where the indomitable will of an anti-hero challenges the relentless force of an unparalleled event."

So to answer your questions, as far as I know, the main character is in prision and is sentenced to dead, but an alien invasion takes place just the same day that he was gonna be put to dead, so no, he's not a "good boy" sort of character, and yes the aliens are the "bad guys".

I wouldn't like to overload the developer with issues about a game that isn't midway in development yet, when he's already too bussy with everything, but I do support the idea that feedback of any kind is ESSENCIAL, especially in early stages of development like right now. I'm gonna point him to this thread, maybe he can reply personally some of your questions.

[MrFlibble]

Thank you!

[Forge]

Mike Norvak, on 09 March 2024 - 08:38 AM, said:

"In the year 2063, human civilization teeters on the brink of collapse as the world descends into a devastating chaos, wrought by resource scarcity, relentless warfare, and rampant pollution.

I don't think we have to wait that long

[Danukem]

Mike Norvak, on 27 February 2024 - 11:30 AM, said:

DISHOP is a first person shooter in development, the team is looking for investors and will launch a kickstarter soon. So they reached to me to make the music for a series of trailers and shorts. This is the first one:

http://youtu.be/uiWx...V8SpaOUjPJU3e_a

I hope you'll enjoy it!

This looks pretty cool. tbh I didn't notice this thread until now and then I wasn't going to say anything until I saw the criticism. My take is that this game is retro in its own way, it's just retro from a later era, (2007ish?) not a classic boomer shooter. I do think that the glossiness/shine should be turned down a notch on some of the textures because it's a bit much, but I don't mind the style at all, in fact it's kind of nostalgic in its own way. Music is great.

[Mike Norvak]

Danukem, on 11 March 2024 - 01:19 PM, said:

This looks pretty cool. tbh I didn't notice this thread until now and then I wasn't going to say anything until I saw the criticism. My take is that this game is retro in its own way, it's just retro from a later era, (2007ish?) not a classic boomer shooter. I do think that the glossiness/shine should be turned down a notch on some of the textures because it's a bit much, but I don't mind the style at all, in fact it's kind of nostalgic in its own way. Music is great.

Thank you Dan! I had't thought about the 2007 style, probably you are right. BTW Javi, the developer told me he is having problems retriving his old account. So he created a new one, but can't post yet. Is there something new accounts need to do in order to reply in threads?

[Avtrix]

MrFlibble, on 29 February 2024 - 01:27 AM, said:

To be perfectly honest, I'm unable to stomach this kind of visuals at all. There's just too many details, flashy things, shadows and reflective surfaces and stuff that makes every scene a colourful mess.

I would have much preferred an older engine like Q1/Q2 or the original Unreal, without the flashy bells and whistles.

I understand your perspective, but please consider that this next-generation game aims to provide a visually rich and detailed experience that reflects the atmosphere of Dishop. The abundance of details and eye-catching elements is intended to immerse the player in a vibrant and dynamic world.

[Avtrix]

Danukem, on 11 March 2024 - 01:19 PM, said:

This looks pretty cool. tbh I didn't notice this thread until now and then I wasn't going to say anything until I saw the criticism. My take is that this game is retro in its own way, it's just retro from a later era, (2007ish?) not a classic boomer shooter. I do think that the glossiness/shine should be turned down a notch on some of the textures because it's a bit much, but I don't mind the style at all, in fact it's kind of nostalgic in its own way. Music is great.

Thank you for your comment on the game. We're glad you liked it. We'll take your suggestions into account for the final version. We're excited to hear that you find it nostalgic and that you enjoyed the music!

[Avtrix]

MrFlibble, on 09 March 2024 - 03:49 AM, said:

Well, Serious Sam started as an indie game too, didn't it? I'm not really clinging to this dichotomy of AAA versus indie, especially since there are engines like Unity and Unreal that have pretty good capabilities and can produce stuff that looks good in competent hands, regardless of the budget.

I was just pointing out that a) I'm personally not a fan of the flashy lights and the palette/colour choices, which give me a sensory overload and make it hard to read the scenes that are being rendered; I guess this might be partially blamed on the engine, but as I said I don't play modern games that much so I don't have a good benchmark to compare this to, like for example other modern Unreal Engine titles.

And b) I really haven't figured out what is going on in the trailer. Is it some kind of alien invasion? Does it take place on Earth or elsewhere? Are the "aliens" the bad guys? Are the riot gear people the bad guys? What does the prisoner/main character have to do with it? Did he kill the guards and then escape? Why did the riot gear people try to storm his cell (if this is what they were doing)? I can't draw major comparisons here because the kind of FPS games that I play (like Ion Fury or Hands of Necromancy) mostly show gameplay footage in trailers/teasers or at least actual level previews, with some background narration possibly thrown in, as they don't do many cutscenes on the game engine. But I'm pretty certain that if the devs wanted to present some coherent story, they could do this regardless of what their budget is.

So far, I'm mostly confused because the game does not look like anything remotely inspired by Duke Nukem 3D to me, neither visually nor gameplay wise, if the several hundred milliseconds of actual gameplay footage is anything to go by.

Sorry if this may sound a bit harsh, but I was really expecting something different when I read your description and watched the trailer. So far I've no idea what the actual game could be like, because almost nothing has been shown in the teaser, i.e. whether it's gonna be fun to play or what kind of dynamic there is between exploration and combat (e.g., it could be freeform exploration vs. moving from one area filled with enemies to another with no way to revisit previously completed areas). Because of this, I do not have any valid criticisms, or even any opinion on the project, beyond the two points that I've mentioned.

I understand your points and appreciate your detailed feedback. The game is inspired not only by Duke Nukem but also by other titles that have left their mark on the genre. Currently, we have more trailers and information that we will be releasing gradually.

It's worth noting that, in practical terms, once the video game is finished, you will be able to see how everything fits together. This trailer is more of a preview, a teaser that doesn't aim to provide specific information about the game. Its purpose is to offer a general overview of what we are working on. In future trailers, you'll see how all the pieces come together.

Thank you for your constructive criticism; we need to know what people think about the project.

[MrFlibble]

@Avtrix, thank you for the detailed response! I'll check out the updates when they are available. I certainly would like to see more gameplay to have a better idea of what the game is like.

Avtrix, on 25 March 2024 - 07:39 AM, said:

I understand your perspective, but please consider that this next-generation game aims to provide a visually rich and detailed experience that reflects the atmosphere of Dishop. The abundance of details and eye-catching elements is intended to immerse the player in a vibrant and dynamic world.

I very likely went into this with quite specific expectations of what a game "inspired by Duke" might look like (I guess The Last Exterminator) is a good example of what I had in mind). I'm indeed not a big fan of modern titles, and have very little experience with any non-retro FPS that came out over the last decade or so. Apologies if I sounded overly critical.

BTW, I mentioned in one of my comments above that after watching the trailer for the second time, I had this impression that it kind of looked like a CGI intro to a 90s game, except it's made with modern tech and thus more flashy. I can't point to a specific example ATM, but I think there's not a few games from the 90s CD-ROM era when an intro was pieced together from these short pre-rendered animated scenes, which sometimes were not very clear on what was going on. Is this an intentional similarity or just something in my head?

[Avtrix]

MrFlibble, on 30 March 2024 - 10:32 AM, said:

@Avtrix, thank you for the detailed response! I'll check out the updates when they are available. I certainly would like to see more gameplay to have a better idea of what the game is like.

I very likely went into this with quite specific expectations of what a game "inspired by Duke" might look like (I guess The Last Exterminator) is a good example of what I had in mind). I'm indeed not a big fan of modern titles, and have very little experience with any non-retro FPS that came out over the last decade or so. Apologies if I sounded overly critical.

BTW, I mentioned in one of my comments above that after watching the trailer for the second time, I had this impression that it kind of looked like a CGI intro to a 90s game, except it's made with modern tech and thus more flashy. I can't point to a specific example ATM, but I think there's not a few games from the 90s CD-ROM era when an intro was pieced together from these short pre-rendered animated scenes, which sometimes were not very clear on what was going on. Is this an intentional similarity or just something in my head?

Personally, I'm not a follower of modern games. In fact, it's the ambiance that characterized the games of the 90s that inspires me to develop my own project. As for the influences of Duke Nukem, you'll see in future trailers that there are many references. Moreover, the atmosphere, and even the irreverent character and acidic humor of the protagonist, clearly reflect this inspiration.

I want to make it clear that what you've seen in the trailer doesn't involve CGI at all. Everything has been created using the game engine to offer the most authentic experience possible. If you're interested in seeing more gameplay, I encourage you to take a look at the second trailer, which has just been released today. You can find it at the following link: We are also on Instagram and Twitter with a lot of information and images! @avtrixgames

I would like to point out that the game is in the development process, and the goal of this project is to bring back the fun and atmosphere of 90s games. We have a clear path, we just need to reach the goal. I appreciate your observations and suggestions, Mr. Flibble. Thank you.

[MrFlibble]

Avtrix, on 02 April 2024 - 10:07 AM, said:

I want to make it clear that what you've seen in the trailer doesn't involve CGI at all.

Yes, I understand that -- I said that the teaser trailer looked like CGI FMVs from 90s games, and it was more about the composition of the scenes, actually, although of course the rendered images back then kind of looked like modern 3D graphics, although at a lower resolution and less flashy.

Avtrix, on 02 April 2024 - 10:07 AM, said:

If you're interested in seeing more gameplay, I encourage you to take a look at the second trailer, which has just been released today.

I watched the trailer, thanks!

I have no objections towards the scenery or any particular designs per se, but my previous complaint stands, namely there is a lot of light sources, lens flares and reflective surfaces that make the scenes pretty hard to read for me.

I took one screenshot of a more or less static scene and marked most of the lights and reflections on it:

It's just too saturated with this kind of effects for me, and the lights are really bright (especially the plain white one at the back of the scene) against the rest of the room that is pretty dark.

The green rectangle marks the flaming pit where the monster is about to come out from, but all the other patches of light are just screaming for my attention.

My opinion is purely subjective, of course. But I looked up a list of recent Unreal Engine 5 games at MobyGames, and most of them show a much more temperate use of lights and surface reflections:


Here's a comparatively dark one (if the previous was too bright), but the scene is quite readable and does not get drowned in lights:


A very neatly composed, albeit dark, scene with some non-intrusive lights from the new Robocop game:


Here's one that looks comparable to the DISHOP trailer in terms of the use of light sources and reflections, but the scene is brightly lit and readable (although I'm not sure I'd want to play this game anyway):


This one has soft lights and generally the image looks fairly realistic:

[Avtrix]

MrFlibble, on 14 April 2024 - 07:05 AM, said:

Yes, I understand that -- I said that the teaser trailer looked like CGI FMVs from 90s games, and it was more about the composition of the scenes, actually, although of course the rendered images back then kind of looked like modern 3D graphics, although at a lower resolution and less flashy.

I watched the trailer, thanks!

I have no objections towards the scenery or any particular designs per se, but my previous complaint stands, namely there is a lot of light sources, lens flares and reflective surfaces that make the scenes pretty hard to read for me.

I took one screenshot of a more or less static scene and marked most of the lights and reflections on it:

It's just too saturated with this kind of effects for me, and the lights are really bright (especially the plain white one at the back of the scene) against the rest of the room that is pretty dark.

The green rectangle marks the flaming pit where the monster is about to come out from, but all the other patches of light are just screaming for my attention.

My opinion is purely subjective, of course. But I looked up a list of recent Unreal Engine 5 games at MobyGames, and most of them show a much more temperate use of lights and surface reflections:


Here's a comparatively dark one (if the previous was too bright), but the scene is quite readable and does not get drowned in lights:


A very neatly composed, albeit dark, scene with some non-intrusive lights from the new Robocop game:


Here's one that looks comparable to the DISHOP trailer in terms of the use of light sources and reflections, but the scene is brightly lit and readable (although I'm not sure I'd want to play this game anyway):


This one has soft lights and generally the image looks fairly realistic:

I fully understand your point of view and have taken your suggestions into consideration. It's true that some scenes in the dishop trailer are extremely illuminated, which can make the visual experience challenging for some viewers. I acknowledge that lighting is a crucial aspect in the design of any game, and each project has its own unique artistic perspective.

I have carefully observed the comparative images you shared, such as the photography from the new Robocop game, and I agree that there are scenes in dishop that could benefit from a more subtle and less intrusive lighting. However, I also want to point out that there are multiple scenes in dishop that closely resemble the lighting of the Robocop video game. I agree that these scenes, which resemble more realistic photography, offer a more balanced and easily readable visual experience.

I greatly appreciate once again, Mr. Flibble, your suggestions regarding the aspects that do not convince you, and I commit to taking them into account in future advancements in the game's design. I firmly believe in the importance of constructive criticism and in the continuous pursuit of excellence in quality for the development of our project.

Thank you again for your valuable feedback and suggestions for the dishop project. I invite you to take a look at our Twitter, where we have many images and short videos that can provide a more detailed insight into the different environments of dishop. You can find us at @avtrixgames.

Thank you once again, Mr. Flibble.