The Watchtower, on 25 February 2024 - 10:38 AM, said:
From the screens and videos I've watched, I don't think this was the appropriate name for such a map, because a Duke space level couldn't be further away from the ones penned by Blum and Levelord back in 1996. I think the less is often more approach would have worked better this time. It looked like random big rooms after random big rooms with random enemy placement and random sounds and random colours instead of something cohesive like the classic Lunar Apocalypse episode. I respect ck3D for his great enthusiasm to keep this community alive, however I often feel his speedmapping approach to create large scales in hours should be applied with care in the future, at least if he want to reimagine the classics. In Blast Radius, ck's way worked because he essentially created new references, instead of remaking old ones, and the way he imagined Duke's version of Frisco, Cusco, Pula, Norilsk, etc. is the way these places should suppose to look in this game. And the maps there were more cohesive ones too, coincidentally, despite being far from the original concept, with some nerfing and fine tuning, it can be sold as something canonic.
However when the product is selling itself as a classic reimagination, it should be closer to the classics in style, but copypasta is also not the way of things too, so finding the narrow path of having a fine product is difficult. The reason I openly dislike these kind of reimaginations (the godzillions of Hollywood Holocaust remakes for example) is because they are wanting to be very similar, but in the end, they couldn't be further.
I also think you should try a different challenge with this. Can you make new levels that can be pasted in the middle of the classic episodes without noticing the stylistic differences? For example Warp Factor and Fusion Station have no connections to each others, can you make a set of maps within the 1996 limitations that can work there, that can look fresh and not reusing existing ideas, that can be greenlighted by a fictional Broussard? For me, that would be the real Lunar Apocalypse: Space Oprah. If you know what I mean. Levels that are 7 to 10 minutes long, every room has something interesting in it, that can't be built in a few days, but a month at least? Stuff like pipeline's old Mothership and Hell Station levels, except better in quality? I mean, I would pay for such thing. Of course the same can be said about the other episodes. Like "let's make an interconnection between every The Birth level" challenge.
Sorry for my negativity, pal, you know, I have never been kind with these classic remakes. But of course keep up the good work, and do what you love to do.
Not one ounce of negativity perceived, this is the kind of exchange I'm hoping to generate with my contributions, every reaction is welcome and I absolutely do not care for validation or invalidation. It's always great to read someone's thoughts, I always appreciate the investment of time and personally I find it reassuring to be reminded that people still know how to verbalize a sincere opinion instead of being two-dimensional.
I had a lot of fun replying to slightly comparable thoughts shared by CheezeCrostata recently, on ModDB in the comments here:
https://www.moddb.co...kem-3d-user-map (pertains to the discussion, not sure how to share in the way that's the most indulgent.) That sort of covers some of the direction from a technical perspective but also touches on the conceptual why's of the remakes a little bit.
They do contrast with Blast Radius completely because they are basically the opposite in essence, Blast Radius tried something that would take 'Duke 3D' both as the game it is and as a popular concept, and stretch or expand it, basically taking every clue I could from the original to maintain familiarity all the while keeping the player at the core of maximum 'Duke 3D' input overdrive, some players naturally can withstand it, react to it and beat it and some can't because of restrictions they impose onto themselves first and foremost and the intent is for people to realize (or not) that in general the only obstacle between them and whichever victory they imagine really is themselves and the sum of their choices or lack thereof. Am simultaneously intrigued and not surprised whatsoever that not so many people have come up to me before to try and understand the symbolism behind it (some have, but only a couple), and the level on which it pulls strings all along, which actually is great and I wouldn't have it any other way, if the experience suffices to itself then to me it's a success. I never advertised it as particular 'entertainment' (ModDB specified 'survival' all along) but I guess being a game it has no problem being just that if that's what one can make it (somehow).
The 'remakes' do the polar opposite, they again take 'Duke 3D' as both a product and concept but instead the process is to crumple or shrink it. I think what subconsciously encouraged me to give it a shot was curiosity, for the past couple of years or so I've been noticing the emergence of a new profile of player who claims to love the game and engine, but is completely disconnected from the legacy of the community in practice and instead insists on playing E1L1&E1L2 year after year (all of E1 already would qualify as a different profile), or the same old three official expansions despite all the fantastic user content that this whole time always was publicly available. I understand that there's a lot that's out there which can be disorienting when it comes to knowing where to start but MSDN and comparable websites are literally a Google search away so I'm inclined to believe if the so called hardcore interest is sincere then there is no excuse for missing out on quality Duke stuff, instead to revisit the same misery over and over. Sometimes I also feel like some players literally do not feel worthy of the good stuff even though it's free, which is strange. But was becoming too big not to spontaneously react to and made me realize entire retellings of the originals might be feasible, although not necessarily wishable, and that it may be interesting to see how this new profile of player would react to them in a new format. Then hopefully realize what's possible to do with the game/engine, learn about what others have done before, possibly find something they like and get drawn in. L.A. Meltdown and Shrapnel City I had real-life locations (Hollywood Boulevard and the Santa Monica pier) to help sell the presentation but they mostly remain sort of extreme butcherizations of the originals, it is the pop aspects that they play with and sometimes confirm, sometimes subvert as just many hooks towards the underground. Lunar Apocalypse in particular always got funny reception and so it got the corresponding treatment, so now you access Lunatic Fringe through the black lodge, ride a hoverboard across Fusion Station, then Fordism is your way out via Rainbow Road, and finally the planetary cannon is one giant Nerf gun. In that sense I find the term 'cacophony' to be apt, the level does a bit of something the Paris level in Blast Radius already did (better) being set up as one giant stage play, where you can tell some of the backgrounds are functional props to a degree and it absolutely doesn't matter one bit the whole time the player is acting anyway reshaping the scene. In all three cases the popular reaction has been very rich to study, Shrapnel City video by Radar so far has gotten 50k+ viewers and dozens and dozens of manifestations in the comments but the other two got equal attention in a sense that translates into simple numbers a little less, but speaks just as much. In general people are impressed that the maps are so rich but also seem to get that in spite of the fireworks, something important is missing, which was part of the point and justifies the visuals being overdone. Some others also absolutely do not see it, so it's like blue dress/yellow dress.
So do both approaches have completely different value, yes most probably, but I think they're strangely complementary and maybe similar in intent somewhere so I'm presenting them together. Might be less apparent a fracture when I get around to adding the Blast Radius/Zero Zone enemies to the remakes.
Episodic presentation/shorter levels is something I want to come back to ideally with Zero Zone and more possible dimensions I'm considering drawing the blast to, but I like where your mind is going. Last level to have conveyed an effect such as the one you describe to me (but you won't necessarily share that sentiment) is Mess Mall! from Preto Murara's Downtown Journey, I have pretty mixed feelings regarding some aspects of that episode (although I generally like it) but that specific level blew me away as what an unseen E1 map with a slightly more modern look could look like the very first time I played it. Execution wasn't always exceptional but that's one interesting example of a vanilla episode with fresh themes and interesting pacing if you were to ask me, conceptually it runs on solid ground.
Am taking a break from Build now for an undefined period of time. But I've expanded and shrunk the game now so it may or may not be freezing it that I do next. Re: style morphing if it doesn't involve TROR or Polymost then I can probably replicate it in detail and apply to original designs but easily feels very procedural. For now I think I'll be chilling for a while.
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