Duke4.net Forums: [RELEASE] Lunar Apocalypse 3072: A Space Oprah - Duke4.net Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

[RELEASE] Lunar Apocalypse 3072: A Space Oprah  "Piece of space cake"

User is offline   ck3D 

#1

Hi, here's my new map again: https://we.tl/t-UgRiTObjiY (temporary link)

Reimagines all of Lunar Apocalypse (minus Spin Cycle) in one big level. Tons of sector over sector.

About 1500 enemies, 11 secrets, test runs took me 155 minutes. It's a movie after all.

Comprises a secret level. SP, DM, coop, etc.

Only tested by me but I think I got most bugs. Save before you board the first duo of trains (before Fusion Station), there's a (meager) chance Duke might detect the space sector and die.

No screenshots, come get some.

Cheers!

This post has been edited by ck3D: 07 February 2024 - 05:27 PM

11

User is offline   Vagan 

#2

This cake is not a lie.

Rocking with the latest DukePlus off of ModDB (2.501). No visual glitches, no performance issues (I have a super slow system to boot), no sprite crashes. I'm up to the "office", haven't gone in the other direction but I sniped everything shooting at me from afar.

Thanks @ck3D. Epic.

(edit: gameplay is awesome. The holodeck is a challenging piece of action, haha!)

This post has been edited by Vagan: 07 February 2024 - 10:18 PM

1

User is offline   ck3D 

#3

Thanks Vagan, happy you like it. Yes design should be relatively bug free and mod compatible, it's a vanilla map and unlike Shrapnel City stays reasonably clear of the sprite limit. Thanks for playing.

Radar has reported a bug that is one of the secrets kills the player (it's in Spaceport), I probably forgot to make one space sector harmless somewhere. I'll post a revised version in a couple of hours that addresses that.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 08 February 2024 - 01:09 AM

2

User is offline   ck3D 

#4

https://we.tl/t-pItHDjP2D1

Updated version that fixes the killer secret, and tries to alleviate the killer train issue as there were a few Build units I realized I still could chew out of the space/track sector. Technically it's still present/can happen but the odds are mitigated by 75%. Enjoy!

This post has been edited by ck3D: 08 February 2024 - 03:55 AM

3

User is offline   Dr.Panico 

#5

This level took me 100 minutes, still missing 5 secrets.

Sweet fucking Jesus with a pat of butter! This level was BRUTAL. It keeps throwing everything at you; mostly Sentry Drones. I know a lot of people really hate this enemy - I personally think they're okay as they generate suspense; but my God, I ended harboring a serious venom towards those fuckers while playing these. Next playthrough I might cheat to get all weapons just so I can unleash my anger and go full Luddite on their metal asses. Don't even get me started on that underwater section on Fusion Station...

Aside from that, this level was entertaining. It has some inventive setpieces and gameplay was pretty good when I didn't have to deal with Drones... The 18-button puzzle scared me at first, but fortunately the solution is easy to figure it out. In terms of visuals, I've never seen outer space in a Duke3D map as busy as in here. There's a lot of things to appreciate - it makes levels like Spacetronic and WGSpace look barren in comparison.

This level was also where my compulsion of blowing up Slimer eggs with Pipebombs died. After being HUMILIATED on the Incubator section after doing so, I spent the rest of the map resisting the urge of blowing those damned things. There was one room that was BEGGING for me to blow them up. Probably the intended reaction, but I nonetheless resisted like a big man.
Spoiler


I also noticed two bugs: one happened near the Enterprise, where some of the Liztroops that spawned got stuck in eternal damnation after stepping in the space sector. The other happened in the red vat section, where some of the Drones clipped through the forcefield.
3

User is offline   ck3D 

#6

Am aware of the liztroops bugging out, I can probably fix that by just moving the respawn sprites to around the teleporter or retiming some C9's, consciously left that in at least for now because it demonstrates unusual behavior and it just looks so weird, as though they're in a suffocating state which kind of works in space. I think it does register the kills too, it's just a bit of a pity you can't blow up the corpse(s) in that state where it wants to fall off the ledge but can't because it's stayput.

The babes being an integral part of the classic E2 lore (although to be honest, working on this I realized I'm not sure that trope ever was needed, since the lore moves on to resolve on the planetary cannon anyway feels a bit like E2 has two McGuffins, not saying that's wrong to have, just that the original story is crazy), you need to save them by protecting them in a way that's not dissimilar to what I already did in previous maps (thinking Red Light Rumble) except here it's taken up a notch, with the cocoons and pods being close to so many goo canisters (I always imagined it was TMNT mutagen in those), and the enemy encounters also being planned and timed to risk endangering them. Spices things up because now in addition to just the usual firefights, you have to contextualize your movement on a 360 degree plane the whole time and so there are extra mental gymnastics going on during what would otherwise be typical circle strafing. Each babe death is potentially a gameplay changer, in Incubator each babe downstairs spawns her own three drones that in turn risk crashing into more canisters, and upstairs has that Commander Duke needs to take out as soon as possible, depending on how things go it's clearly possible to go from riches to rags house of cards style at a few points. There's the armory, too. I did make sure it was manageable/completable even with all worst case scenarios triggered though, so level can suddenly become a lot harder in a flash but can't get downright impossible. In Dark Side some of those babes spawn a Battlelord Sentry each (and one particularly wrong explosion can kill three babes at once), that must be the meanest it gets. But in other places where you can't see any babes around, then the goo canisters are assistance against the eggs, in places such as the Incubator office or the Dark Side vats.

It's strange some drones could escape the forcefield, are you sure that's what happened or did you just not notice the switches also turned the forcefields off in addition to opening the holds maybe. With the beaming lights it's a bit tricky to tell that it has, but that's instant whereas the holds take a few extra seconds to open.

Last collapsing section in Dark Side is quite tight and a bit of a test of reflexes x memories from similar settings in the original, I agree it's voluntarily a bit mean but it's possible I might rework the collapse a little, I like it right now but am feeling like refining it, so I might make it a tiny bit more fair.

Underwater Fusion Station was mean, I'm a bit surprised to hear that since it felt fair to me minus the one last drone spawn that seems to act up on occasion and they get stuck out of the claustrophobic corridor or into the ceiling where autoaim can't reach them (but rockets can since it's too narrow for them to possibly dodge), that does suck when it happens and with the more testing I do the more I realize it's not as exceptional as I thought but pretty common, so I might try moving those respawns just a wee bit to make sure they engage as planned.

I want to update the map once more but just to fix OCD levels of floor alignment displacement oversights and so possibly might consider all this whilst at it. There also is a possible softlock in Fusion Station if one falls down the fusion pit twice, as I simply downright forgot one switch. I have no clue when that'll happen though since I'm feeling particularly rinsed these days when it comes to Build/screens in general, so may be in a small while. Thanks for playing and for the feedback.

Am curious if you found Lunatic Fringe; there's a cool albeit rather pedestrian easter egg whilst venturing in there that is one of those things you either catch in a flash or miss entirely, but is possible to observe before crossing over the corner and standing at the right spot. It gets a bit wild in there.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 08 February 2024 - 09:02 PM

2

User is offline   Vagan 

#7

Just a couple of quick DukePlus specific notes. After playing through (including Lunatic Fringe which was super tough to find!), the only crash was in the Armory area. If you are careful to not blow up everything in the Armory, and pass on the secret that's nearby, you are golden. I did miss 4 other secrets, so not a guarantee.

This level jives well with DP. It's super helpful to have dual pistols right at the beginning, and after taking out the first Battlelord, that cannon & the Imperium cannon can take out a lot, especially from a distance. Helps immensely that DukePlus makes shrink kills on Battlelords tons easier.

DP aside, I found I had to get creative with RPG splash damage and pipebomb usage.
1

User is offline   ck3D 

#8

Here's a list of the secrets (obvious spoilers);

Spoiler


This post has been edited by ck3D: 08 February 2024 - 09:28 PM

2

User is offline   Radar 

  • King of SOVL

#9

Video is up with 100% secrets. I will admit this level was a bit harder to understand than Shrapnel City, but I think I got it down. Hope this playthrough does the map justice. Any plans for The Birth as a future installment?



Posted Image
2

User is offline   ck3D 

#10

Rainbow Road is the thumbnail that is so cool, thanks for this. Yes traversal was pretty much textbook, there are some quicker ways to get around at times (for instance can jump down the central tower in Fusion Station directly after deactivating the forcefield to the exit and it'll take you to the spot, but I think you realized that after the fact) but it's good you went all the way around, triggered extra cool fights. In Dark Side at the vats (since that entire part is basically a mirror set-up that meets there) something I generally do too is clean up both holds also thanks to the central elevator, then just rush from one switch to the next (one releases the card outside, the other one drops goodies) before the drones can catch up (central elevator is fast), then instantly drop down and fight everyone outside, it's a lot more enjoyable there I find where the environment is open and clean cut whereas war inside with all the flashing lights looks intense, busier and less practical due to the slopes.

You've probably observed that after the fact too (or felt like directly fighting them), but you can fry the four Battlelord Sentries inside the reactor by turning it on (after they've seen you through the forcefield and/or whilst observing them via the cameras works best), instead of confronting them. Two or three of them will die depending on how they react (sometimes they'll hug the walls as though desperate to escape, which exposes them more), rest will be weakened, can save precious ammo especially if used to RPG the beasts.

It's still very impressive how quick you were at reading the map to such a degree, especially since I enjoy making levels that typically take several playthroughs, exceptional attention skills or literally forever to completely figure out, am not a big fan of (myself making) completely straightforward designs that for sure look cool but then there is no depth re: storytelling detail or secrets or references. Here in particular some of the progression is a bit complex also because I wanted to establish what I feel like is trademark E2 tension (when E1&E3 are action and more straightforward) so wanted pseudo mazes, sector over sector stacks, 720 degree circles and all kinds of nooks and crannies. It's readable (hopefully), mostly because structurally organized but there are a lot of different locations to go, way more than meets the eye on automap that doesn't show all the multiple floors and layers (or only so well). It's a lot of hallways and hubs in all kinds of styles, but in the end I hope feels like a complete journey with a satisfying destination.

I'm a bit curious now if you ever tried your hand at mapping, would be interesting seeing your take on the game sometime after so much experience with user maps just like it was pretty fantastic to see Forge take it up after n DNR reviews of other people's stuff. Not even considering technical proficiency, I'd just be quite curious to see what kind of imagery or settings your brain would generate and associate/apply to the game after seeing so much made for it. (It's very possible I've asked this before, sometimes I have the memory of a goldfish, the elephant heritage being reserved to everything that does not in fact matter)

I do not plan on remaking The Birth, but I might reference it in the future, I do have plans that consider that the episode exists. So this will remain a trilogy while I either take a two year break from mapping, or start a new level for WG's contest next week.

Also noticed Polymost breaks a few minor parallaxed sky tricks thanks to your video (and that the windshield of the Ford Fusion buried itself below the ground at some point, I need to raise it; couldn't tell as in Classic it simply does not render there). It's good to know and helps me coin some more accurate specificities re: the kind of tricks or sector set-ups that work in both Classic and Polymost or only in one of them, since I can't verify much in Polymost myself (Polymer probably downright breaks my stuff since it renders skies completely differently, kills some popular masking tricks). I'll proceed with uploading an updated version of the map on ModDB later today and share your video while I'm at it. Cheers!

This post has been edited by ck3D: 09 February 2024 - 04:19 AM

3

User is offline   Dr.Panico 

#11

Quote

It's strange some drones could escape the forcefield, are you sure that's what happened or did you just not notice the switches also turned the forcefields off in addition to opening the holds maybe. With the beaming lights it's a bit tricky to tell that it has, but that's instant whereas the holds take a few extra seconds to open.


It's possible. Although I remember I wasn't messing up with the switches too much back there. My strategy was attracting all the Drones up high and shoot the group with the RPG, then deal with the remaining two using hitscan weapons after shutting down the forcefields.

Strangely, the issue I've reported only happened in the red vat area. The green one worked OK.
2

User is offline   ck3D 

#12

Ah, path to the red vat has drones that spawn in your back after you reach a certain point of the hallway (just before reaching the computers to lower for the elevator), they spawn at the very beginning/bottom of the sloped hallway and then slowly creep up so if you didn't notice them prior to going down (which is very possible, they're far away and can take a moment to catch up) then they'll meet you in the red vat room, now that you describe the order of things I'm pretty sure that must be what happened.

https://www.moddb.co...kem-3d-user-map

I have an updated version of the map, fixes one bad slope, the Fusion Station softlock, some texture realignment/replacement and I also raised the windshield back up. Should be the definitive version to download/play, I'm not sure I'll have much to update about it now.
3

User is offline   ck3D 

#13

https://www.moddb.co...ah-new-user-map

I just:

- updated the map to fix a possible softlock musicmonstermod reported (apparently you can clip through the Enterprise bridge walls because of the sector over sector, and into the holodeck; still possible but now there is an additional switch for getting out);

- came up with a new mystery shadow Overlord variant;

- incorporated the map to Blast Radius v.5.x.x, it's now included/selectable from the menu and features the new Overlord.

Vanilla version with base Overlord stays up as a separate download but now also reflects the latest fix: https://www.moddb.co...kem-3d-user-map
2

User is offline   ck3D 

#14

https://www.moddb.co...kem-3d-user-map

Am trying to chill away from Build for some time but I just updated this level to fix some killer space sky sectors (found some more around Spaceport that were left) and a misaligned light texture in Occupied Territory, in case anyone has downloaded an older version but hasn't played yet, links are the same and the changes were done to both the standalone and BR versions of the map.
1

User is offline   ck3D 

#15

MSDN review is up and I think very fair: https://msdn.duke4.n...rapocalypse.php

Am glad 'Looney Tunes style' is brought up, I appreciate the background art in the old cartoons (but hadn't made the precise connection), and for tone one of my influences here was Space Goofs.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 24 February 2024 - 03:33 AM

2

User is offline   NNC 

#16

From the screens and videos I've watched, I don't think this was the appropriate name for such a map, because a Duke space level couldn't be further away from the ones penned by Blum and Levelord back in 1996. I think the less is often more approach would have worked better this time. It looked like random big rooms after random big rooms with random enemy placement and random sounds and random colours instead of something cohesive like the classic Lunar Apocalypse episode. I respect ck3D for his great enthusiasm to keep this community alive, however I often feel his speedmapping approach to create large scales in hours should be applied with care in the future, at least if he want to reimagine the classics. In Blast Radius, ck's way worked because he essentially created new references, instead of remaking old ones, and the way he imagined Duke's version of Frisco, Cusco, Pula, Norilsk, etc. is the way these places should suppose to look in this game. And the maps there were more cohesive ones too, coincidentally, despite being far from the original concept, with some nerfing and fine tuning, it can be sold as something canonic.

However when the product is selling itself as a classic reimagination, it should be closer to the classics in style, but copypasta is also not the way of things too, so finding the narrow path of having a fine product is difficult. The reason I openly dislike these kind of reimaginations (the godzillions of Hollywood Holocaust remakes for example) is because they are wanting to be very similar, but in the end, they couldn't be further.

I also think you should try a different challenge with this. Can you make new levels that can be pasted in the middle of the classic episodes without noticing the stylistic differences? For example Warp Factor and Fusion Station have no connections to each others, can you make a set of maps within the 1996 limitations that can work there, that can look fresh and not reusing existing ideas, that can be greenlighted by a fictional Broussard? For me, that would be the real Lunar Apocalypse: Space Oprah. If you know what I mean. Levels that are 7 to 10 minutes long, every room has something interesting in it, that can't be built in a few days, but a month at least? Stuff like pipeline's old Mothership and Hell Station levels, except better in quality? I mean, I would pay for such thing. Of course the same can be said about the other episodes. Like "let's make an interconnection between every The Birth level" challenge. :D

Sorry for my negativity, pal, you know, I have never been kind with these classic remakes. But of course keep up the good work, and do what you love to do.

EDIT: I haven't seen all the map, just snippets from it, so take my rant above with a grain of salt.

This post has been edited by The Watchtower: 25 February 2024 - 10:51 AM

1

User is offline   NNC 

#17

Oh, and I'm glad that Mikko is a Looney Tunes fan. Like I am. Hare-Way to the Stars is an interesting episode for example (he mentioned it in his reviews). It has some brutally consistent layouts with the red corridors (credits goes to Charles M. Jones director and Maurice Noble layout designer) that I can see working in a Duke map. So in this regard, I don't agree with Mikko's review, as it's not cacophonic or hodjpodj in style.

This post has been edited by The Watchtower: 25 February 2024 - 10:53 AM

1

User is offline   ck3D 

#18

View PostThe Watchtower, on 25 February 2024 - 10:38 AM, said:

From the screens and videos I've watched, I don't think this was the appropriate name for such a map, because a Duke space level couldn't be further away from the ones penned by Blum and Levelord back in 1996. I think the less is often more approach would have worked better this time. It looked like random big rooms after random big rooms with random enemy placement and random sounds and random colours instead of something cohesive like the classic Lunar Apocalypse episode. I respect ck3D for his great enthusiasm to keep this community alive, however I often feel his speedmapping approach to create large scales in hours should be applied with care in the future, at least if he want to reimagine the classics. In Blast Radius, ck's way worked because he essentially created new references, instead of remaking old ones, and the way he imagined Duke's version of Frisco, Cusco, Pula, Norilsk, etc. is the way these places should suppose to look in this game. And the maps there were more cohesive ones too, coincidentally, despite being far from the original concept, with some nerfing and fine tuning, it can be sold as something canonic.

However when the product is selling itself as a classic reimagination, it should be closer to the classics in style, but copypasta is also not the way of things too, so finding the narrow path of having a fine product is difficult. The reason I openly dislike these kind of reimaginations (the godzillions of Hollywood Holocaust remakes for example) is because they are wanting to be very similar, but in the end, they couldn't be further.

I also think you should try a different challenge with this. Can you make new levels that can be pasted in the middle of the classic episodes without noticing the stylistic differences? For example Warp Factor and Fusion Station have no connections to each others, can you make a set of maps within the 1996 limitations that can work there, that can look fresh and not reusing existing ideas, that can be greenlighted by a fictional Broussard? For me, that would be the real Lunar Apocalypse: Space Oprah. If you know what I mean. Levels that are 7 to 10 minutes long, every room has something interesting in it, that can't be built in a few days, but a month at least? Stuff like pipeline's old Mothership and Hell Station levels, except better in quality? I mean, I would pay for such thing. Of course the same can be said about the other episodes. Like "let's make an interconnection between every The Birth level" challenge. :D

Sorry for my negativity, pal, you know, I have never been kind with these classic remakes. But of course keep up the good work, and do what you love to do.


Not one ounce of negativity perceived, this is the kind of exchange I'm hoping to generate with my contributions, every reaction is welcome and I absolutely do not care for validation or invalidation. It's always great to read someone's thoughts, I always appreciate the investment of time and personally I find it reassuring to be reminded that people still know how to verbalize a sincere opinion instead of being two-dimensional.

I had a lot of fun replying to slightly comparable thoughts shared by CheezeCrostata recently, on ModDB in the comments here: https://www.moddb.co...kem-3d-user-map (pertains to the discussion, not sure how to share in the way that's the most indulgent.) That sort of covers some of the direction from a technical perspective but also touches on the conceptual why's of the remakes a little bit.

They do contrast with Blast Radius completely because they are basically the opposite in essence, Blast Radius tried something that would take 'Duke 3D' both as the game it is and as a popular concept, and stretch or expand it, basically taking every clue I could from the original to maintain familiarity all the while keeping the player at the core of maximum 'Duke 3D' input overdrive, some players naturally can withstand it, react to it and beat it and some can't because of restrictions they impose onto themselves first and foremost and the intent is for people to realize (or not) that in general the only obstacle between them and whichever victory they imagine really is themselves and the sum of their choices or lack thereof. Am simultaneously intrigued and not surprised whatsoever that not so many people have come up to me before to try and understand the symbolism behind it (some have, but only a couple), and the level on which it pulls strings all along, which actually is great and I wouldn't have it any other way, if the experience suffices to itself then to me it's a success. I never advertised it as particular 'entertainment' (ModDB specified 'survival' all along) but I guess being a game it has no problem being just that if that's what one can make it (somehow).

The 'remakes' do the polar opposite, they again take 'Duke 3D' as both a product and concept but instead the process is to crumple or shrink it. I think what subconsciously encouraged me to give it a shot was curiosity, for the past couple of years or so I've been noticing the emergence of a new profile of player who claims to love the game and engine, but is completely disconnected from the legacy of the community in practice and instead insists on playing E1L1&E1L2 year after year (all of E1 already would qualify as a different profile), or the same old three official expansions despite all the fantastic user content that this whole time always was publicly available. I understand that there's a lot that's out there which can be disorienting when it comes to knowing where to start but MSDN and comparable websites are literally a Google search away so I'm inclined to believe if the so called hardcore interest is sincere then there is no excuse for missing out on quality Duke stuff, instead to revisit the same misery over and over. Sometimes I also feel like some players literally do not feel worthy of the good stuff even though it's free, which is strange. But was becoming too big not to spontaneously react to and made me realize entire retellings of the originals might be feasible, although not necessarily wishable, and that it may be interesting to see how this new profile of player would react to them in a new format. Then hopefully realize what's possible to do with the game/engine, learn about what others have done before, possibly find something they like and get drawn in. L.A. Meltdown and Shrapnel City I had real-life locations (Hollywood Boulevard and the Santa Monica pier) to help sell the presentation but they mostly remain sort of extreme butcherizations of the originals, it is the pop aspects that they play with and sometimes confirm, sometimes subvert as just many hooks towards the underground. Lunar Apocalypse in particular always got funny reception and so it got the corresponding treatment, so now you access Lunatic Fringe through the black lodge, ride a hoverboard across Fusion Station, then Fordism is your way out via Rainbow Road, and finally the planetary cannon is one giant Nerf gun. In that sense I find the term 'cacophony' to be apt, the level does a bit of something the Paris level in Blast Radius already did (better) being set up as one giant stage play, where you can tell some of the backgrounds are functional props to a degree and it absolutely doesn't matter one bit the whole time the player is acting anyway reshaping the scene. In all three cases the popular reaction has been very rich to study, Shrapnel City video by Radar so far has gotten 50k+ viewers and dozens and dozens of manifestations in the comments but the other two got equal attention in a sense that translates into simple numbers a little less, but speaks just as much. In general people are impressed that the maps are so rich but also seem to get that in spite of the fireworks, something important is missing, which was part of the point and justifies the visuals being overdone. Some others also absolutely do not see it, so it's like blue dress/yellow dress.

So do both approaches have completely different value, yes most probably, but I think they're strangely complementary and maybe similar in intent somewhere so I'm presenting them together. Might be less apparent a fracture when I get around to adding the Blast Radius/Zero Zone enemies to the remakes.

Episodic presentation/shorter levels is something I want to come back to ideally with Zero Zone and more possible dimensions I'm considering drawing the blast to, but I like where your mind is going. Last level to have conveyed an effect such as the one you describe to me (but you won't necessarily share that sentiment) is Mess Mall! from Preto Murara's Downtown Journey, I have pretty mixed feelings regarding some aspects of that episode (although I generally like it) but that specific level blew me away as what an unseen E1 map with a slightly more modern look could look like the very first time I played it. Execution wasn't always exceptional but that's one interesting example of a vanilla episode with fresh themes and interesting pacing if you were to ask me, conceptually it runs on solid ground.

Am taking a break from Build now for an undefined period of time. But I've expanded and shrunk the game now so it may or may not be freezing it that I do next. Re: style morphing if it doesn't involve TROR or Polymost then I can probably replicate it in detail and apply to original designs but easily feels very procedural. For now I think I'll be chilling for a while.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 25 February 2024 - 02:15 PM

3

User is offline   NNC 

#19

The last sentence wasn't a good read, especially the "undefined" word. Somehow I felt your maps gave this community a life support, there are so few releases, last year we had some from William Gee and Alex, but both guys and you are old guards, and I'm still concerned about the future of Duke mapping as these old guards stop eventually, but nobody seems to take their place. Obviously real life things matter more than a video game, even if it's on a creativity side, so I respect your decision, but still hope this is just a break, not a departure.

I personally am more of a fan of your expanding aspect as it feels more "canonical" than shrinking, which is more experimental. But of course both have their place in an author's (or an artist's, because mapping is a form of art IMHO) inner development.

PS: It's interesting people still compare LA Meltdown to Shrapnel City. Their themes are similar, but stylistically, layout and atmosphere-wise, LA is much more comparable to Lunar Apocalypse. I know this wasn't in the core of your sentence, but I felt I have to emphasize it once again, because it can help to understand what mapping style truly means.
2

User is offline   ck3D 

#20

You probably shouldn't worry about quality of the output, if anything my levels giving other people's more space will allow for better appreciation for other aspects of the game/engine/level design, and I'm convinced in creativity stop and release is big, it's way more efficient when you know precisely when and how to strike instead of wasting effort when the time just isn't right. If I somehow woke up a masochist tomorrow and started forcing my output, it would ruin it anyway which doesn't even need to happen for people to tell as everyone knows the speed maps or random experiments can only be so good. I just don't have the luxury all that much anymore and am generally gradually becoming (metaphorically) allergic to screens and more inclined to trust the real world these days for possibilities in creating (am aware the average user on here knows me as a mapper first and foremost but it's really one out of maybe a dozen hobbies, and not necessarily the healthiest one). But Build is historic so timeless and so it doesn't matter how active my person is, I have enough stuff out and there has been, is and will be countless hardcore fans picking it up. But am humbled you'd hold my presence around these parts in such regards. Just there's a lot around if one looks. Ideally I still have Zero Zone to finish sometime anyway (still want 30 levels for it) and endless level ideas so don't believe I'm even able to mentally retire, once you've seen Build I don't think you can unsee it.

I agree E1 and E2 feel close in orchestration and pacing whereas E3 is (even historically) more everything goes. In a way it's also because of that original orchestration that this remake feels so disjointed, now under the form of just one piece exacerbates the ridiculous aspect of the story at that stage, and it's more cracks in the original design that start to appear when it's pushed like that. Invasion of multiple space stations at once with the simultaneous presence of two macguffins (the babes, the cannon) just can't work when presented so directly and in a way honestly. That's also because the adventure is now a one-off and feels disconnected from the progression that would be a more complete story. Postmortem in Blast Radius already is/was most Lunar Apocalypse concepts (or similar/comparable) in one big map but there felt serious because integral to a larger sequence of events to contextualize it. If anything it does one extreme opposite, which is disintegrating the ten-level-running macguffin.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 25 February 2024 - 02:08 PM

0

User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#21

watchtowerpleaser.map when?
0

User is offline   ck3D 

#22

Well for The Watchtower, it's all along.
0

User is offline   Danukem 

  • Duke Plus Developer

#23

View Postck3D, on 25 February 2024 - 03:06 PM, said:

Well for The Watchtower, it's all along.


Make a map named All Along the Watchtower, then it can be both for The Watchtower and a Bob Dylan tribute at the same time. And have a literal watchtower if you want.
1

User is offline   NNC 

#24

Oh brother, how to flush the discussion down in the toilet.

This post has been edited by NNC: 25 February 2024 - 04:39 PM

0

User is offline   ck3D 

#25

Well, I believe every observation that was made so far still stands strong of all its validity regardless of my proneness to puns, but I can apologize if the platitude offended you. Just that's inherent to the Internet, sometimes there are sincere exchanges and sometimes there is shitposting, one doesn't necessarily exclude the other.

One topic I feel like isn't very common to tackle is how profoundly players do directly help shape the product mappers output with their feedback, making them an intrinsic part of the continuity of the process in return. Mapping/art is only so personal until it reacts to a context. I don't think it's an ego thing either, just a logical process that feedback will dictate one's next move and so no feedback literally means missing the next piece it takes the machine to keep the process going. Sharing thoughts also doesn't mean they will dictate the exact output just yet (so that's nothing to be wary of either), I think a mapper is more likely to note those as indication and inspiration and not necessarily instructions. Knowing what active players generally expect is very useful, also to surprise them with something different entirely. Only if/when players express it what it is they want, and establish standards can the response ever possibly be intelligent. Isolated designer can only be unique for so long.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 26 February 2024 - 04:17 AM

1

User is offline   Mike Norvak 

  • Music Producer

#26

You can always say: "It was on purpose" Which actually was.
0

User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#27

Making a map that is a tribute or nod to the original episodes does not mean it absolutely has to be in the original episode classic style. It is completely acceptable if the mapper allows their own style and creativity to influence how the map evolves. I'm not going to agree with hamstringing a mapper very often.

People are allowed their own opinions and to provide feedback as such, but that doesn't mean it's always a quality opinion. Especially when that opinion is played on a continuous loop.

This post has been edited by Forge: 26 February 2024 - 08:39 AM

0

User is offline   ck3D 

#28

I feel like I still don't understand much from the posts in this thread since this morning, but I guess might make more sense the moment I step away for perspective. I think I see what you're trying to do Forge and while I appreciate the intent, I can assure you I absolutely do not feel directed by The Watchtower's opinions personally; on the other hand, I do genuinely value their feedback, and regularly see a lot of points in it that speak to me, there is a lot I've learned as a mapper from it throughout the years (and from everyone else's, but one can really learn from the most unique takes). I don't think it's redundant either, sure everyone's preferences will only evolve so much over time and so they will stick to a certain mass, but by that logic I'm a broken record about a lot of things too and in reality so is most everyone rambling on the Internet. I'm being sincere when I say I'm open to criticism about my levels, I'm detached enough that they only represent me so much, if anything I'm hoping people keep singling out all the detail that to most may sound mundane. If anyone actually stepped on my toes, I may be French but they would know it.

In this case the levels clearly establish that while they're bound to be different from the originals, they still cultivate some sort of connection to them. I don't think discussing the validity, strengths and weaknesses of the product is that uninteresting at all, in a strange way I feel like that was kind of the point behind the exercise itself.

Will be glad to pretend none of this happened. Or maybe not since it's part of the reaction too now, but I think you're all cool.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 26 February 2024 - 09:19 AM

1

User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#29

View Postck3D, on 26 February 2024 - 09:08 AM, said:

I don't think it's redundant either

really?
Because this could have been pulled directly from the amc forum instead of here.
He's straight-up telling you that you shouldn't be allowed to use the name you used or even call it a tribute because you didn't make it in a certain style.

Quote

I don't think this was the appropriate name for such a map, because a Duke space level couldn't be further away from the ones penned by Blum and Levelord back in 1996.
However when the product is selling itself as a classic reimagination, it should be closer to the classics in style
I also think you should try a different challenge with this. Can you make new levels that can be pasted in the middle of the classic episodes without noticing the stylistic differences?
Sorry for my negativity, pal, you know, I have never been kind with these classic remakes.


btw, they didn't even play it in order to formulate their default opinion

View PostNNC, on 25 February 2024 - 10:38 AM, said:

From the screens and videos I've watched



Of course they are entitled to have and share their same old tired opinion. Same as I'm entitled to disagree with how they think everything has to be made in a certain way; especially if it has any calling back to the original episodes.
My opinion is that you should make whatever you want to make, how ever you want to make it. You're damn good at what you do and shouldn't be restricted or limited; you're 'allowed' to apply your style and flair to your creations.

This post has been edited by Forge: 26 February 2024 - 11:55 AM

0

User is offline   ck3D 

#30

I didn't read commands anywhere in the 'shoulds', instead of imperatives I'm interpreting them as suggestions, invitations or if anything indications of something someone might like to see. I make stuff (sometimes) and so can consider the perspectives I hear when I find there is truth to them and it positively nurtures my practice in return. Of course am not trying to say you bringing up your own thoughts is any less appropriate, you obviously do not need my permission to be free to argue anything with anyone, just here my personal sentiment seemed to be a concern (which I appreciate) so I had to clarify that The Watchtower's posts to me only are ever useful and so absolutely a non-problem (again, as far as I am concerned). Am too confident in my style to risk doubting it all the while knowing better than never questioning it. It's not dissimilar to you once recommending I should learn TROR, which I've also noted (now, that I haven't learned it yet is on me). Whenever people mention they haven't directly played a level, obviously I take note of that too (it's indeed big), especially since they're honest. But now I'm genuinely curious if you yourself have played the level (or any of the remakes, or Blast Radius) and can't help but ask (there is no catch, nor expectations of in-depth feedback). I appreciate your appreciation either way.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 26 February 2024 - 02:50 PM

2

Share this topic:


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic


All copyrights and trademarks not owned by Voidpoint, LLC are the sole property of their respective owners. Play Ion Fury! ;) © Voidpoint, LLC

Enter your sign in name and password


Sign in options