[Aleks]

NY00123, on 24 November 2023 - 07:43 AM, said:

btw, I don't know if it's intentional, but NetDuke32's multiplayer menu doesn't let you select levels following the first seven for episode 1. This is also the case in Vanilla Duke3D, and must be related to map slots 9-11 representing nonexistent maps, while E1L8 is for user maps. You can still get into the maps via command-line arguments, with or without the assistance of an external multiplayer launcher. Of course, this also holds to various others contents, including older ones like "Duke, it's ZeroHour".

Hmmm, I wonder if this has something to do with the problem I've experienced with being unable to normally proceed from either E1L7 or E1L14 (secret level) to E1L8 in Blast Radius. However, the weirdest thing about it was, it wasn't exactly consistent at all - I couldn't normally enter E1L8 during my playthrough, but e.g. using a GODMODE and speedrunning either of the preceding levels would sometimes transport me to E1L8.

Maybe leaving episode 1 blank and moving BR and ZH to the places of other episodes would fix this issue?

[NY00123]

ck3D, on 24 November 2023 - 11:57 AM, said:

Thanks heaps for the testing and report, I'll fix the setp shorthands with the next update, didn't realize those were problematic too, but should have.

No problem!

Quote

I never tried setting up NetDuke for a variety of reasons, my PC is old, slow and its disk space saturated, my Internet isn't exactly viable for online play, and to tell you the truth the last time I looked it up I couldn't be sure where to even download the correct version, that's how out of touch I've been. Didn't even know one could run it with bots for testing until you brought that up in your earlier post, definitely keeping that in mind from now on.

If your PC is in such a situation then this might indeed be a problem. While there can be multiple factors impacting online gaming, fake multiplayer is an option as said. Out of curiously, I've checked now, and it already existed as of shareware version 1.0. What was introduced later (in the Atomic Edition) was fake bot AI. Striker also made improvements to the bot AI in NetDuke32.

As for getting NetDuke32 (previously known as EDuke32-OldMP), there's a thread in these forums, currently linking to a list of releases in the first post: https://forums.duke4...duke3d-netplay/
You might want to delete ebacktrace1.dll in case of having mysterious crashes.

If none of the releases in question is compatible with your PC, you can try an older version from here, albeit one's mileage may vary: https://gitlab.com/m...nce/-/releases/

Quote

For sure you must be spot on regarding the level selection since that is in no way intentional from my end (but seeing how experienced with online play I sound, no doubt you figured). Interesting to know that.

In retrospect, as I realized a bit later, this is indeed not specific to newer contents like yours, and also applied in the late 1990s (e.g., ZeroHour). It might be less of a problem for maps intended to be played as a part of a (complete) cooperative play-through. It's more important in modes like Dukematch; Even then, command-line switches and external launchers can be used as a workaround. Maybe also a console command, but I haven't tested this in multiplayer as of recent.

Aleks, on 24 November 2023 - 01:31 PM, said:

Hmmm, I wonder if this has something to do with the problem I've experienced with being unable to normally proceed from either E1L7 or E1L14 (secret level) to E1L8 in Blast Radius. However, the weirdest thing about it was, it wasn't exactly consistent at all - I couldn't normally enter E1L8 during my playthrough, but e.g. using a GODMODE and speedrunning either of the preceding levels would sometimes transport me to E1L8.Maybe leaving episode 1 blank and moving BR and ZH to the places of other episodes would fix this issue?

That's another sub-topic to bring. I don't recall atm if EDuke32 changed anything important to do with level transitions, emphasis on secret levels. But, at least in DOS v1.4-1.5, I learnt about it working like this:
- For an ordinary level, a nukebutton without an alternative palookup will simply take you to the next level as usual. The same should hold for level transitions not using a nukebutton.
- If, however, the nukebutton has a different palookup, you'll be transferred to a secret level, picked according to the nukebutton sprite's lotag.
- Once you leave a secret level, you should be transferred to the level following the one you visited before the secret level.

There's one main catch. If you start a game from a secret level instead, level transitions might not work as expected. Even if you think it initially does, chances are it won't persist. Here's a scenario that demonstrates this in v1.5:
1. Warp to E2L10. Internally, the game won't consider it to be a secret level. Use a colored nukebutton to exit.
2. The nukebutton should take you to E2L6. This might look like you're leaving a secret level, but technically speaking, it's as if E2L6 was really the secret level, in terms of how the game works.
3. Once you leave E2L6, you'll find yourself in E2L11, because it follows the preceding level not registered as "secret" in-game, which is E2L10 in that case.

[Aleks]

NY00123, on 25 November 2023 - 01:28 AM, said:

That's another sub-topic to bring. I don't recall atm if EDuke32 changed anything important to do with level transitions, emphasis on secret levels. But, at least in DOS v1.4-1.5, I learnt about it working like this:
- For an ordinary level, a nukebutton without an alternative palookup will simply take you to the next level as usual. The same should hold for level transitions not using a nukebutton.
- If, however, the nukebutton has a different palookup, you'll be transferred to a secret level, picked according to the nukebutton sprite's lotag.
- Once you leave a secret level, you should be transferred to the level following the one you visited before the secret level.

There's one main catch. If you start a game from a secret level instead, level transitions might not work as expected. Even if you think it initially does, chances are it won't persist. Here's a scenario that demonstrates this in v1.5:
1. Warp to E2L10. Internally, the game won't consider it to be a secret level. Use a colored nukebutton to exit.
2. The nukebutton should take you to E2L6. This might look like you're leaving a secret level, but technically speaking, it's as if E2L6 was really the secret level, in terms of how the game works.
3. Once you leave E2L6, you'll find yourself in E2L11, because it follows the preceding level not registered as "secret" in-game, which is E2L10 in that case.

With my BR playthrough it was entirely different and I gave up going too deep into trying to find a reason why it happened, because as I mentioned, it was too irregular. Finishing E1L7 from the "regular" nukebutton would just finish the episode and take me back to the credits (although the name of the next level would pop for a frame or two on screen as Duke was hitting the nukebutton and before the stats rolled in!), while the paletted secret level nukebutton correctly transported me to E1L14 (secret level). However, finishing E1L14 would just finish the episode as well and take me back to the main titles... Except it didn't do that in every case, as it seemed that "speedrunning" any of these two maps would usually let me get to E1L8 normally. I suspected it might be some unusual gamevar or something triggering during the gameplay that would prevent the normal transition, but didn't find anything unusual analysing the logs. Also, even waiting for some minutes at the start of the map before rushing to the nukebutton would work correctly, so it doesn't seem to be time-dependent either!

[NY00123]

Aleks, on 25 November 2023 - 04:27 AM, said:

With my BR playthrough it was entirely different and I gave up going too deep into trying to find a reason why it happened, because as I mentioned, it was too irregular. Finishing E1L7 from the "regular" nukebutton would just finish the episode and take me back to the credits (although the name of the next level would pop for a frame or two on screen as Duke was hitting the nukebutton and before the stats rolled in!), while the paletted secret level nukebutton correctly transported me to E1L14 (secret level). However, finishing E1L14 would just finish the episode as well and take me back to the main titles... Except it didn't do that in every case, as it seemed that "speedrunning" any of these two maps would usually let me get to E1L8 normally. I suspected it might be some unusual gamevar or something triggering during the gameplay that would prevent the normal transition, but didn't find anything unusual analysing the logs. Also, even waiting for some minutes at the start of the map before rushing to the nukebutton would work correctly, so it doesn't seem to be time-dependent either!

ok, I don't know what happened there. It wasn't like a user map was previously loaded in a way that could potentially confuse EDuke32, right? While Blast Radius has custom CON code, I don't think it should unexpectedly end the game in your cases.

My original guess was that it was related to transitions to E1L8 as a non-secret level. After all, you seemed to get the problem in the E1L7 -> E1L8 and E1L7 -> E1L14 ("secret") -> E1L8 transitions, but not E1L14 -> E1L8 ("secret")? Albeit it also didn't occur in "speedruns" of E1L7, according to you, so I'm unsure about the E1L7 -> E1L8 transitions.

I separately checked this in EDuke32 with "Duke, it's ZeroHour". I skipped to E1L7 and used no-clipping to get to the nukebutton. I could transition to E1L8 as usual. Thus, I suspect there's something specific to Blast Radius and/or your local setup here.

[ck3D]

https://www.moddb.co...3d-blast-radius 3.0.1 is up and should fix the NetDuke compatibility for good, there indeed were two instances of setp instead of setplayer left in the code, in theory should work but I haven't tested anything yet, shall soon though.

Thanks again for all the reports including for the buggy exits, mod goes at it the classic way with the secret levels being last in the set and only called separately so I'm not sure what's going on besides possible episode 1 specific limitation intricacies, could be an Eduke thing too, recently I got two distinct reports of level 10 Postmortem invariably crashing when the slimer spawns onto the big red button, submitted a crash log for that on Discord that I was sent by ModDB user rdm2, seems somewhat isolated but new since I didn't touch that map in a while/can't repro it in older builds/didn't catch that happening to any live streamer. Maybe at some point I'll move episode slots around just to be sure.

Some good news is TerminX recently found the cause for the sky bugs/crashes in the couple of maps that still had those, they were capable of hitting the wall bunch limit (traditionally 'only' 6144 can display on a single frame) but that limit will soon be bumped so Blast Radius is closer to being completely bug free.

[Aleks]

ck3D, on 01 December 2023 - 03:53 AM, said:

recently I got two distinct reports of level 10 Postmortem invariably crashing when the slimer spawns onto the big red button, submitted a crash log for that on Discord that I was sent by ModDB user rdm2, seems somewhat isolated but new since I didn't touch that map in a while/can't repro it in older builds/didn't catch that happening to any live streamer.

That sounds like the most meta thing possible in Blast Radius, the effect caused by that slimer traverses the Build universe into the real one!

[NY00123]

While not planned to be silent at all, I guess it kinda brings an unintentional change.

But also, is the last version of BR usable for cooperative games now?

[Radar]

I would love to play Blast Radius in co-op mode. Some of the levels are so big, it seems it would really fit that style of playing and provide enough monsters for multiple players. I see in the video though that some weapons should be added in co-op mode. It's no fun playing at the beginning with just a pistol. It works in single-player where it's easier to sense some of the deconstructive elements of the mod, but it really kills the flow in co-op.

[ck3D]

Thanks for recording and showing me this that is so cool, always hoped to see the episode played like that. Re: viability in coop yeah the maps always had everything implemented for that and Dukematch, I tried designing everything around every possible gameplay style I could think of including the Zero Zone maps, multiplayer spawns are wisely and meticulously placed everywhere and while MP only switches are minimal (they only ever exist if they really had to, and some that logically should exist I didn't put in on purpose for the occasional cul-de-sacs), the levels are interconnected enough that sections always can be approached from a variety of angles, some of the largest looking maps can be traversed or finished in seconds all the same once routing figured out. So there aren't too many lateral paths because the maps themselves are lateral and all the more so if used to speedrunning or MP vision.

What the episode doesn't do much or at all in terms of MP is mode specific weapon and ammo caches indeed but shouldn't matter too much (hopefully) because in general supplies are abundant and all over the place, probably mostly stings in level 1 where only a few guns/enemies are present and then 2 which has more but everything is scattered (or secret). Single player gameplay for each map was implemented and tested on pistol start so I know it's always viable per se, in general more weapons always are rather close to the start, sometimes it's different ones in this or that given direction but always in the vicinity, with the levels feeding the same guns multiple times (not just ammo over and over). With the more new enemies as soon as the next level the more weapon drops too. Maybe there will be cases where the balance could be more ideal but always should be there even when/if a bit rough.

But Radar is right flow is key and also why watching MP footage is useful to me, bunch of Dukes bumping and humping every wall and sector at full speed all the time and trying to keep up with the thread. When it comes to identifying specific moments that work or do not work it's very direct and explicit. Am all ears when it comes to any particular report or observation of course, if I'm told something breaks I'll for sure go to at least try and fix it.

Technically I think all should work, might get some bugs that also happen in SP depending on how old the EDuke NetDuke is based on is, in an EDuke build from 2017 I still use on the occasion works pretty smoothly minus some sky HOM in levels 8 and secret 2 (also exceptionally secret 1) which some more recent EDukes aggravate but next EDukes I was told will fix.

Level 2 I suspect actually may be a pretty tough cookie in blind coop because it's not just big but also in part puzzle/observation based. Studying the security screens should help a lot, if not with a jetpack and scuba it's possible to complete the level in two minutes running into just the right secrets. Action-wise though might play pretty sick.

Level 11 Silent Scream does funny stuff with MP spawn points IIRC both DM and coop. Off the top of my head level 4 is so big it has 40+ DM starts, a few of them may be traps. I think I remember one of them (a.k.a the unluckiest one) drops you into the current/waterfall unless quick enough to catch a ledge or piece of land.

Thanks again for the video. Those first scorpion tanks always get everyone!

[Aleks]

ck3D, on 02 December 2023 - 05:14 PM, said:

Level 11 Silent Scream does funny stuff with MP spawn points IIRC both DM and coop. Off the top of my head level 4 is so big it has 40+ DM starts, a few of them may be traps. I think I remember one of them (a.k.a the unluckiest one) drops you into the current/waterfall unless quick enough to catch a ledge or piece of land.

Hmmm is it even possible for the game to read more than 7+1 (or perhaps 15+1 in the case of NetDuke that IIRC allows up to 16 players) DM starts? Never gave it much thought, but I always remembered you can have up to 7 DM and 7 Co-op starts in a map, would have to see if all of the 40 ones actually work or the players would be limited to only 7 anyway.

Peru map would be crazy in DM unless playing with really many players. I think Pula, Norilsk and Space Dubai would be particularly fitting for DM.

[ck3D]

Yeah AFAIK so many DM spawn points should work, I remember asking Striker for confirmation specifically before I put them in.

Also even in the larger levels IIRC the DM starts aren't exactly just scattered throughout and should be mostly compartmentalized/regionalized to work with the common sense that the scale calls for. Every once in a while, some levels might experiment.

Minimum three ways in and out of each room logic I like to use should be particularly MP prone too (I think a few buildings must have close to three times that amount).

[William Gee]

Started this up again.
Loved this little computer shadow on the wall, impressive small detail.
Also really like the transition to pigcops. (y)

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[ck3D]

Love that you're back to this Will! Really curious about what you'll think of the progression of the levels, theme and then end game if the blast keeps pushing you there this time. Early game tests the player a little but upon beating the fourth level you'll have climbed the steepest wall in regards to rough difficulty I reckon. Then the challenge progresses on a different plane. Love the feedback, thanks, gotta admit I'm still pleased with that shadow, really it's always the little things, but you know. Good luck!

[William Gee]

Passed level2
This fight with the expander bosses was well thought out, enjoyed that.
Lots of pressure in this map, and a good challenging fight at the end!
Loved the constructiveness and wide open spaces!

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[ck3D]

Timmm from the Duke4 Discord just sent me this and it's too good not to share (with his permission):



Part of me had always hoped someone, somewhere, sometime would do this, I'm very pleasantly surprised I didn't expect it would be so soon.

[NNC]

He is probably flying from Cusco to Pula, and can beat BR on speedrun mode in that time.

[ck3D]

https://www.moddb.co...re-new-user-map

4.0.1 now available including the Shrapnel City remake as episode 4 + two new bosses (plus a few fixes),

Can update/download here: https://www.moddb.co...3d-blast-radius

Spoiler

[ck3D]

Rehosted King Mamba's insane Zarathustra run here:

[jimbob]

the map after the museum level keeps crashing on my computer, al the graphics are glitched and eventually it just freezes :'(

[Dr.Panico]

jimbob, on 15 January 2024 - 12:20 AM, said:

the map after the museum level keeps crashing on my computer, al the graphics are glitched and eventually it just freezes :'(

Oh yeah. That level is infamously temperamental. Are you playing on Classic mode?

[ck3D]

Those bugs should be gone if playing in a recent EDuke, was due to too many walls in sight in a few of the maps, that limit's been raised for a bit.

[jimbob]

 ck3D, on 15 January 2024 - 03:55 AM, said:

Those bugs should be gone if playing in a recent EDuke, was due to too many walls in sight in a few of the maps, that limit's been raised for a bit.

i'll try a newer eduke version then, yeah, that seems to have fixed it

[ck3D]

 jimbob, on 17 January 2024 - 01:13 PM, said:

i'll try a newer eduke version then, yeah, that seems to have fixed it

I guess that's a good opportunity to thank the EDuke devs again for being so quick at understanding the problem (TerminX instantly guessed it) and volunteering to address it. Would have never guessed Build even had a limit to the number of visible walls in one frame by myself otherwise and would still be trying to needlessly optimally traffic wall lengths and sector splits. Fix terminated all those cold sweats those crashes were starting to give me, I'm thankful for all the reports and oftentimes spontaneous help I've been receiving since this came out. It really reassures me every time I hear that stuff finally is solved.

The good stuff starts soon after the Paris map, hope you stick around till the end! Curious to hear your honest general feedback whenever. Cheers.

[ck3D]

https://www.moddb.co...ah-new-user-map

V. 5.x.x is up featuring the new Lunar Apocalypse remake, total level count now 24 (Blast Radius 15 levels, Zero Zone demo 6 levels, then the three remakes), total file count 322.

Like for the other remakes, the included version of Lunar Apocalypse 3072 features a unique boss variant.

That also means in addition to its original campaign plus the demo of the sequel, Blast Radius boasts its own reinterpretation of all of 1.3d now. Have fun with it!

[NightFright]

I really need to take a look at this after all this time. I was afraid of running it with some deprecated EDuke32 build, but it's apparently also working fine with recent snapshots (at least if I understood correctly), so...

Those levels look intimidatingly large for my taste, but slow progress is better than none, I guess...

[ck3D]

Yes the recent builds (from December-ish onwards IIRC) fix basically every technical issue the episode ever had.

Best way to absorb the episode is to never force anything about it, it's totally fine to take breaks, explore around for hours or find skips. Gameplay tests one's knowledge of gameplay mechanics in various ways but will also teach them a lot if patient enough. Only way to have a hard time is by sticking to the same three guns, ignoring information and never taking initiative or thinking outside the box.

The challenge changes over time too, the first few levels maybe are the trickiest ones to navigate but then as soon as past the relative wall of level 4, it's the combat that becomes spicier. There are detailed walkthroughs for each map on the ModDB in Articles if you get stuck.

Hope you enjoy, and looking forward to your thoughts either way.

[NightFright]

Short mid-episode report: So far I've made it until the secret level.

What I can say is that I'm impressed with the complexity of these maps. There's a lot to see and explore. The "new" Duke speech fits and music varies between adequate and excellent.

I've developed a passionate hatred for the Expander/Freezer shooters and those stupid recon cars with their multi rocket launchers. Speaking of which...

"Incapharnaum". Personally I tend to agree with Mikko's review. It's too long. And balls-breakingly hard at times, too. Too many situations with tons of projectiles, rockets and what not flying in all directions. Not getting hit by a full salvo is sheer luck, even though there's lots of space. I admit I couldn't get through the final stretch of the map without toggling god mode. Too many times those mini bosses stopped me cold and eventually I just had enough. And that was on POC, mind you. Maybe this level should have been cut in half or something, especially so early in the episode.

All the other maps were fine so far. I like that you rarely (if ever) need all keycards. Some are there for bonus purposes and nothing stops you from going straight for the nukebutton. Your mapping style reminds me a bit of WGRealms. A bit twisted and cryptic at times, but quite doable with thorough exploration. For my taste there could be a few more calmer moments, especially in that fourth map.

On a technical note:
Playing this with Polymost and so far didn't notice any issues. However, using the full voxel pack can lead to issues as some maps become rather laggy. I've decided to compromise and only use the pickups part, which made gameplay a lot smoother. Doing so also fixes the hidden/flipped switches which will look out of place if voxelized (w/o maphacks, at least).

To be continued.

[ck3D]

Thanks for the feedback, how voxels perform in the levels all around is interesting to know, I never even suspected people might try to run the add-on with them but of course they will and now I'll know what to advise them to do if they get lag. I wonder how sustainable the option will remain around the end game where the maps become more sprite-heavy.

The Scorpion Tanks! They're my second favorite new enemy in Blast Radius practically speaking. They're so intense they break away from the relative flatness of most head-on Duke 3D encounters a little and thus call for a skill set that's closer to a Dukematcher's than what single players are used to, if they give you trouble, based on how I've seen others progress and learn to tame them in streams, I think the best advice I can tell you is, the worst mistake you can do is not directly confronting them. They're a bit like the base Pigcop in that as soon as you learn their specific 'dance' they stop being any problematic, but the rhythm is faster and the misses more punitive. The rockets are easily dodged when utilizing the space or circle strafing, then with time you naturally learn the ability to dodge them, slipping in between individual shots or jumping them. It's more 3D action than the base Pigcops since all projectile-based, no unfair hitscan. Really I'd go as far as recommending to save before a direct encounter with them and just practice their confrontational patterns for two minutes, you might die on repeat a few times then it will click which movement(s) to adopt. I'm the old-school type of keyboard player, so I know that playstyle shouldn't be an obstacle. It's still a tough enemy, but honestly with perspective I think it's actually less annoying than the Atomic Edition ones once you've accepted its originality and studied its singularities.

Fun story I've told before but doesn't really get old to me is now their attacks run on faceplayer, but for maybe two minutes tops during dev they once ran on faceplayersmart until I actually tested that. Results in a version of the enemy that now is a lot less fair, basically widens its shots to a point that's comparable to Cycloid Emperor rocket range. Fun in itself but to keep things reasonable I knew I couldn't have that.

Incapharnaum is a bit of a meme, every choice about it is justified on the ModDB page: https://www.moddb.co...level-4brl4map1 basically it wears its impracticalities on its forehead and the challenge is how long do you want to spend focusing on them. Map achieves what it's supposed to achieve perfectly but it's also a level I made so that no one else would ever risk making it again. Splitting it would have ruined everything about the piece, you were meant to feel every way you felt about it. Combat does get a bit nuts in a few particular places, mainly in the city and around the rooftops. Entire city can be skipped completely though, off pistol start it's possible to finish the map in a minute and a half. Level is a test of what the player really wants to subject themselves to vs. challenges they imagine are expected from them and I think pretty honest at calling what's mandatory and what's curiosity. Curiosity isn't shamed or punished either since by accessing the right secret places, you can collapse the last cliff to the exit early and skip the whole of the last switch hunt. If you found combat too much at times, maybe that's a sign you should use the jetpack more during the bullet hell moments. The levels provide them, so it's never cheating. In fact I have no problem viewing the DNxxxxx cheats as a valid way to survive through some of the intensity at all in the context of this episode if a particular section is really asking for too much. Those are part of the game design and tools too and whether that's via resorting to them or to all the skips around the map designs everywhere is the exact same responsabilization, the easy way out always is accessible but then it's all on the player's conscience that they're only this or that comfortable with removing the personal challenge and missing out on possibilities, but they get to decide on how much they want to remove exactly so it's all fine.

It's great you're making such considerable progress already. Second half of the episode progresses into something different, I think, again. End game goes hard so it's cool to take the time to prepare for it, but ideally if you can even reach it then that should mean you're ready for it.

There's a second secret level by the way, it's one of my favorites so I hope you find it. Entrance can be ridiculous to find (just now though I'm realizing voxel switches, which I know you've turned off personally, might ruin its secrecy, actually), what I can give away about it is it's somewhere in the last section of level 10. Walkthrough page for level 10 on ModDB details it if it keeps eluding you.

[ck3D]

Random video, but am watching this and it's too on point not to share if anyone who's played levels 2 & 3 of Blast Radius is into the lore of the corresponding real places:

[NY00123]

Wanted to recheck with the last release. The added EVENT_NEWGAMESCREEN handler is incompatible with NetDuke32. Once I commented it out, I could start the add-on.

I suppose the code was added in order to not show stock episode 4's intro cut-scene. My hunch is that mostly empty .ANM files can be used as a workaround for single-player games. For multiplayer games, NetDuke32 already skips the cut-scene. There's still much more for me to see.