[Gorilla]

Let's talk about the lamer maps from the best shooters around (or whatever shooter you please)

I have a clinical need to bitch about The Siege from episode 3 of Blood. It's a fine map, pretty boring for the most part (the hospital at the end is cool) but holy SNOT.... did they even play this horrible map? That siren is one of the most obnoxious tracks I've ever heard in a game. Like this shit aint real life, let's play the sound for some atmosphere and then... let it go! Ffs I can't believe such good developers would make such a genuinely brainless, cerebral-tumor level of decision.

Also special mention to Faces of Death in Duke Nukem Total Meltdown.

Anyone else got something to bitch about?

[Ninety-Six]

Duke 3D: Babe Land. The majority of that level is well-designed, looks the part, has some great setpieces, but man screw the "puzzle" in the shooting gallery. It took me 15 bloody years to figure it out, because there is just no hint towards what the player has to do. I'm sure the logic was disguising the targets as a button combination, but 1.) That's already a dangerous idea to begin with since by that point the player had gone through 3 and a half episodes of very normal-looking buttons to suddenly just change it up, and 2.) The other buttons didn't reset after a period of time, which only makes the requirement of needing a specific combination even more obscure. For years all I could do when I got to this room was type in DNSTUFF. It's absurd.

Doom 2: Gotcha. I hate Gotcha. Levels that are 90% damaging floor are already on my shitlist to begin with, but add in some douchey traps, fairly precise but not-obvious progression as far as secrets are concerned (again, mostly damaging floor thanks I hate it), a slow spider vs. cyberdemon fight which is cool exactly once the first time but not when revisiting it, and just overall terrible flow. So much stop-and-go, which again is only exacerbated by the majority damaging floor because you need to hit the secrets in a very precise and quick sequence lest you take a ridiculous amount of damage. And that's if you know it. A first-time player is pretty much screwed right from the beginning because you either need a crapton of trial & error or you are required to pull up a guide for them because finding the secrets is a nightmare when you can't touch most of the floor, and almost all the secrets are found on that floor.

Half-Life (Decay): A hard tie between Resonance (chapter 4). I'm sure in co-op it's fine, but in singleplayer, which is supported (via the select button on the PS2 original and the "g" key in the PC Mod), it is teeth-grittingly difficult. Mainly because your AI partner (and calling it "AI" is overselling it) is worse than useless. Throughout the rest of the campaign you can usually park your AI companion somewhere safe since they lack the ability to even move on their own, while you send one of the other two characters off into battle. But in chapter 4, your AI partner can't turn valves, so you have to, as enemies spawn in. Rift, the finale, has a similar problem in that it's just a survival gauntlet with minimal cover. However, it's nowhere near as bad as Resonance.

Serious Sam (TSE): My hatred for this one doesn't burn anywhere close to as bright as the others, but nevertheless I still dread the level in all replays: Valley Of the Jaguar. It's not because of the fights (those are actually fairly well-constructed), it's not some of the level gimmicks, no I dislike this one for a very simple reason: Sam is not a very fast character. His running speed isn't an issue in fights where it's perfectly balanced against his enemies, but getting from Point A to Point B in a level can be a time-consuming slog of absolutely nothing happening, and nowhere is that better exemplified than the titular Valley of the Jaguar. You have to go all over the valley and it takes centuries to cross that gargantuan space.

[MusicallyInspired]

Some I can think of off the top of my head that hasn't already been stated:

Wolf3D - that one level made entirely of swastikas.

Dark Forces - Anoat City is the easy answer....but I don't consider it a bad level by any means. Just the most tedious and least interesting. I like every level in that game. But most people hate that level and I can understand why.

Star Trek Elite Force - The entire last area where it's just wave after wave of alien monsters charging at you with little or no variation. It's so constant. It's not even that the map design is bad, though it's not really interesting either, it's just the gauntlet of enemy waves that makes it tedious and boring. The rest of the game is incredible.

[Ninety-Six]

MusicallyInspired, on 01 December 2022 - 09:59 PM, said:

Wolf3D - that one level made entirely of swastikas.

I forgot about Wolf 3D.

My pick goes not to that one, but the same episode (episode 6). I want to say it's maybe Floor 7 or 8. The one that is just one absolutely massive maze loaded to the brim with SS, and in a game without roaming sounds getting killed from behind is extremely common.

Spear of Destiny: Literally any level that puts those Mutant bastards into a maze. Special shoutout to the one that did so and also put vines everywhere in that same maze because the only thing worse than a maze filled with enemies that make no sounds at all and scattered everywhere around blind corners and loopbacks is a maze filled with enemies that make no sounds at all and scattered everywhere around blind corners and loopbacks that you can't see shit in. Episode 2 of the first game was already bad with the Mutants but at least they were all contained within that single episode (and the secret level of episode 6) and didn't do the blind maze bullshit.

[DisgustedGrunt]

Return to Castle Wolfenstein: The first forced stealth level. Who the f schedules a stealth mission to take place in the middle of the freakin' day?!

Dusk: The Ratacombs. You vs 130 something rats, followed by a bigger rat as a bossfight. Gameplay consists entirely of:
1) open door
2) hear rats
3) fire mortar until rat sounds stop
4) repeat steps 1 - 3

Half-Life: This pos of a map

It serves no purpose, it's annoying, and the game would have been better without it.

[Hank]

Shadow Warrior - Wanton Destruction – Airplane - my personal, most disliked level.

My other fav games are still Quake and Quake II, but no levels are worth complaining about. I played them too many times.

[Gorilla]

Lazy Dog, on 02 December 2022 - 10:16 AM, said:

Return to Castle Wolfenstein: The first forced stealth level. Who the f schedules a stealth mission to take place in the middle of the freakin' day?!

Dusk: The Ratacombs. You vs 130 something rats, followed by a bigger rat as a bossfight. Gameplay consists entirely of:
1) open door
2) hear rats
3) fire mortar until rat sounds stop
4) repeat steps 1 - 3

Half-Life: This pos of a map
(image)

yo I hated this map so freakin MUCH as a goofy teenager! I genuinely couldn't figure out where to go or what to do. In fact while I loved the alien aesthetic I felt the entire game came to a horrible crawl and really blew the pacing when we got to the final levels in half life.

also in reference to the wolf3d levels mentioned above, I genuinely cannot stand almost all of spear of destiny and i've tried to play it numerous times. I love the remixed graphics and weird story but it's just... so rudimentary and unfair compared to the original episodes.

[NightFright]

E3M7 Limbo, Doom. For some reason, Hall and Petersen considered it fun to screw over the player with confusing teleporter puzzles before the ep.3 boss level. Until the present day I haven't figured out the pattern to get to the exit without consulting a guide. In general, the third episode isn't my favorite, but without that map, my overall opinion about it would be a lot more positive.

Close second: Dark Forces, the Coruscant map because of that ball-breaking vault puzzle. I just hate when the game stops you dead for figuring out switch combinations. It's the equivalent of a combo lock in Duke3D with at least 8 switches. Still, the level scores plus points for atmosphere and kick-ass music.

[Fantinaikos]

One of the Whoisthisgit's series is based on this thematic. Grouped together with those where he talk about best ones.

Quote

Close second: Dark Forces, the Coruscant map because of that ball-breaking vault puzzle. I just hate when the game stops you dead for figuring out switch combinations. It's the equivalent of a combo lock in Duke3D with at least 8 switches. Still, the level scores plus points for atmosphere and kick-ass music.

Curious, anyone else would have said Anoat City sewers, some addresses it as one of the worst levels in an FPS ever.

Quote

Dark Forces - Anoat City is the easy answer....but I don't consider it a bad level by any means. Just the most tedious and least interesting. I like every level in that game. But most people hate that level and I can understand why.

Speak of the devil.

[NightFright]

I concede Anoat City is more annoying than Coruscant since getting flushed back to the start of the map over and over again just to see what your next switch flip did in another sewer area, constantly being hunted by those Dianoga bastards that pop out of nowhere, is very tiresome.

However, it doesn't mean other DF levels cannot have annoying elements as well - which doesn't make them bad overall. But it's something I still remember about the game in a bad way, which is why I thought I should mention it.

[Morpheus Kitami]

This is a general thing, but I've noticed a lot of secret levels suck, most as secret levels, and some as actual levels.

Doom:
E1M9, its a good level, but can you really say it feels like you got anything all that special?
E2M9, the one with the barons and cacodemons. Something that is in essence, a behavior testing level, accidentally put into the finished release. Woe be to those that had this as a boss level.
E3M9, a remix of E3M1, which wasn't a particularly good level to begin with, but I guess it works precisely once, before you realize the game hasn't just glitched up. Feels lazy.

Doom 2:
Map 31/32, its just Wolfenstein 3D levels, not necessarily bad, just lazy.

Wolf 3D:
E1M10, that purple freaking maze...
(most of the secrets here are actually good, but that one isn't)

Blake Stone 1:
This has, what, 12 secret levels? I don't really remember any of them that well outside the lettering one set has on its maps, and the attempt to reach E1M10, which was one of the best maps in the game. Though I do remember that they didn't feel all that special either.

I don't remember any of the Build engine games' secrets all that well, outside of Shadow Warrior shareware's, which was cute, if annoying.

[luciusDXL]

MusicallyInspired, on 01 December 2022 - 09:59 PM, said:

...
Dark Forces - Anoat City is the easy answer....but I don't consider it a bad level by any means. Just the most tedious and least interesting. I like every level in that game. But most people hate that level and I can understand why.
...

Which is interesting because I actually like that level. But I am probably biased since I know exactly where to go (1, 3, 2 - done). -

Speaking objectively, I do think Imperial City is both one of the best and worst levels in the game. Best because it is full of action, has great music, and is fun to play. Worst because most players get stuck near the end. Once you know how the vault puzzle works, it is fine, but figuring it out the first time is tough for many players.

Many players also struggle with Jabba's Ship due to having to fight Kell Dragons in melee combat and because of the placement of land mines. Fewer Kell Dragons and fewer mines with some other adjustments to compensate would probably have made the level better balanced and more fun for more players.

[Ninety-Six]

I never had an issue with Anoat City like others did. The bane of my existence in that game was Nar Shadda, with all those damn concussive rifle-wielding bastards around every corner. Really pushes the whole lives system to its breaking point.

[MusicallyInspired]

Lazy Dog, on 02 December 2022 - 10:16 AM, said:

Half-Life: This pos of a map
It serves no purpose, it's annoying, and the game would have been better without it.

Its purpose is spectacle, but it doesn't succeed at that. So yeah, very weak. I do think that some of the later Xen levels that look quite repetitive (like the conveyorbelts place, I guess that's Interloper? I forget) are worse just for not looking interesting and being very repetitive. But yeah, Xen was a steep learning curve to figure out how to move around effectively without dying in the beginning. Really fast level once you've mastered it so it doesn't even last long either on the flipside. Not redeeming either way. Definitely a contender.

Ninety-Six, on 06 December 2022 - 12:38 AM, said:

I never had an issue with Anoat City like others did. The bane of my existence in that game was Nar Shadda, with all those damn concussive rifle-wielding bastards around every corner. Really pushes the whole lives system to its breaking point.

Ahh yes. There's at least one secret area too where a concussion rifle dude is that you need to do a timed mine boost jump to reach which takes even more health. Though I don't think that secret counts to the level stats at least...
My least favourite area in that game is the big warehouse/city area or whatever where the thermal detonator dudes and the concussion rifle dudes keep reappearing everywhere and can take you out from afar.

luciusDXL, on 05 December 2022 - 05:03 PM, said:

Which is interesting because I actually like that level. But I am probably biased since I know exactly where to go (1, 3, 2 - done). -

Speaking objectively, I do think Imperial City is both one of the best and worst levels in the game. Best because it is full of action, has great music, and is fun to play. Worst because most players get stuck near the end. Once you know how the vault puzzle works, it is fine, but figuring it out the first time is tough for many players.

Agreed about Anoat City and Imperial City! I say "least interesting" but that doesn't mean it's not interesting. (I actually go 3-1-2 personally now) I think it's great. I just think pretty much everything in DF is pretty much gold. But I'm probably biased from nostalgia. I have really learned to love Dark Forces and everything about it. Hard for newcomers to accept though. I really like the puzzle/fps approach and how it makes you have to spend a lot of time in one level by having the levels be fairly large and sometimes complex and having no save system. Every level (or episode?) feels like an event. Almost like a Star Wars movie should! LucasArts were doing something that felt slightly different with FPS gaming which was a good move.

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Many players also struggle with Jabba's Ship due to having to fight Kell Dragons in melee combat and because of the placement of land mines. Fewer Kell Dragons and fewer mines with some other adjustments to compensate would probably have made the level better balanced and more fun for more players.

Yes, again I agree. The Kell dragons are the only drag. Especially if you're playing on Hard (which I do almost exclusively now). And you don't have much ammo at first and it's so easy to die quickly. It's a nuisance. I'm getting better at it slowly and more efficient, but just the fact that it's taking so long and I'm already pretty much a master at the game means it's quite unbalanced.

Morpheus Kitami, on 04 December 2022 - 05:55 PM, said:

I don't remember any of the Build engine games' secrets all that well, outside of Shadow Warrior shareware's, which was cute, if annoying.

I'm most familiar with Duke3D whose secret levels were quite good and sensible I think. Sometimes really cool too. (except for the ones like Spin Cycle and the Drops one or whatever which are clearly just multiplayer levels repurposed to single player for extra content, and also to show off what the engine is capable of, which is cool admittedly).

[Phredreeke]

Blood's House of Horrors was cool, as was the Mall of the dead and CP's Boggy Creek, the others were pretty meh though.
I actually really like Shadow Warrior's Auto Maul. I really don't remember much about the other secret levels.
As for Duke, I think Freeway and Area 51 are better than some of the normal levels in respective episode. DC and Vaca had good secret levels too from what I recall

Morpheus Kitami, on 04 December 2022 - 05:55 PM, said:

I don't remember any of the Build engine games' secrets all that well, outside of Shadow Warrior shareware's, which was cute, if annoying.

Shareware Shadow Warrior had a secret level? That's news to me

[Morpheus Kitami]

Phredreeke, on 06 December 2022 - 05:02 PM, said:

Shareware Shadow Warrior had a secret level? That's news to me

Checking, and you're right. I was just thinking of one of the secrets in the final level, which I wrongly assumed was a full-blown level.

[Šneček]

As for the level that annoyed the most with its difficulty ( even though it had a nice look), I remember The Grand Cathedral from Serious Sam The Second Encounter. The moment you start retreating backwards from the outnumbered enemies, more powerful enemies will spawn behind you. It was a real nerve racking experience, but with Serious Sam the whole series is basically hard. (At least I think so, I only played First and Second Encounter and didn't continue because the series didn't really grab me. But the level design wasn't bad and the soundtrack from Grand Cathedral was downright fantastic.)

[jkas789]

All of Spear of Destiny.

[Šneček]

Some levels of fourth episode The Ossuary from Heretic: Shadow of the Serpent Riders, especially E4M9 Mausoleum. Mausoleum was miserable map. Mostly the whole level took place in endless corridors with always the same texture, where you had to constantly wander forth and back and back and forth, while "sometimes" some other part of the map opened up. The map felt to me like it was some modder's failed work, not by the original authors. The fifth episode The Stagnant Demesne was cool, but i don´t like the fourth episode very much (although even in the fourth episode you can find good-looking levels).

I´m still thinking about e4m3 ambulatory as a failed level, but looking back at the map video now, this level still looks much better than Mausoleum.

[armani]

entire second episode for Spear of Destiny

[Šneček]

Mission 8 in Fashion Police Squad. I met the most annoying boss I've ever seen. I couldn't get past him. Every time his health was reduced to a certain extent, he would regain it. The second day of trying to game progress, I ran out of nerve and uninstalled the game.