[ck3D]

Maarten, on 04 July 2021 - 06:31 AM, said:

I'm aware AAP1 has more unique/daring stuff which I probably won't beat,

No to me there is absolutely no doubt that you will, you're at a stage in your mapping where you've been especially grasping some of the most key concepts in general level design, such as proper utilization of scale according to the game's movement and physics, interesting layouts or the implementation of important landmarks, those two last maps in particular really demonstrated that. I think once one has made it past that gap you've leaped, then they can pretty much safely design whatever kind of level they want, and so if you feel like making something more ambitious than Woudrichem War then you easily could (the you of one year ago made that map, there's no reason why you couldn't beat it). That's the thing, though - you would have to want it - and I know such large conceptual maps typically drain so much energy out of the author, it's very easy (and justified) not to feel like tackling such beasts.

As you keep making more maps, though, and updating your knowledge on Mapster32 features/hotkeys (which once again make everything Duke 3D map design so much more convenient), you'll spontaneously develop all the good habits you need to spend a lot less time on the technicalities of the design process, and get to the point where, instead of struggling against the creation of every individual sector or sprite work, you will be able to construct all the structures you can imagine 'in real time' with everything just popping up in front of your eyes. Not to bring up my own shit again but that's just what's been happening to me, for my current project the first three maps took a year and I expected that to be tough to beat, but then I kept figuring out better and better workflow and habits via (to me) new Mapster32 features and general design technique. And then throughout the next year, I made seven maps, each bigger, better and quicker than the former and just this past month I've built 40000+ walls (in addition to work and a collection of other hobbies just like you) which sounds like some bullshit, but isn't so hard once you have all the right reflexes to design a 600-sector structure within an hour, and with Mapster32 those are totally possible to acquire now. Maybe that takes the jettisoning of certain traditional (antiquated?) OG Build habits - perspectives in mapping used to be a lot more restricted back when we learned how to do it after all. Anyhow, especially trust me that this coming from someone who, in terms of deep Build tech, at the end of the day is a fucking peasant and normally doesn't necessarily have a practical mind.

This is also why I was trying to show you that one tutorial thing I wrote the other day, I think with your current style you could use some of those tricks to make the process of actually giving birth to such maps a lot less painful. Anyway, I suspect topping Woudrichem War will actually be really easy for you once you tackle another map that you decide to take in that particular direction. Or you can always do like you just did here and top it in a different way - at least, in my opinion, you totally did in terms mood and visual storytelling. What really matters at the end of the day is how inspired you are.

I disagree with Mikko when he says Woudrichem War was more memorable. Maybe it was generally more epic and entertaining in a rather flashy way, but I think Weissensee is just as exciting, just differently and I actually prefer that wisdom in the pacing, it tends to leave specific segments of the level more time to really sink in deep and shine in terms of identity, whereas Woudrichem was more of an ensemble where you just rampaged through everything (although with some more remarkable bits here and there - of course people will think of the windmill or the ending but personally I really liked the hotel). In fact, thinking about it, in retrospect Woudrichem had more of the aspects of Roch Island Mikko found unfavorable in his review of that map (intense pacing, large scale; 'there's lots of it, maybe too much'), those very aspects feel toned down to me in Weissensee in favor of a more constructed flow and yet this time around he preferred Woudrichem. I'm not even arguing, I can totally see why, just saying with perspective it's pretty funny. Either way, right now when I think of Woudrichem, I'm mostly getting fragmented flashbacks of general action; whereas Weissensee, just two playthroughs in I could sort of recount each section of the level by heart because you're bound to develop a relationship with each and every of them and so they actually stay with you.

Also I wonder which switch it is exactly that Mikko is talking about, I'm guessing the one in the bathrooms? Finding the entrance to the bathrooms was a bit tricky to me too for like two minutes but there are only so many options of where to explore at that stage, the correct direction is rather obvious in the grand scheme of things. Plus it instantly teaches you the whole mechanism in that map of having to consider the verticality and look up and not just around. Or maybe he was talking about the switch I was mentioning myself earlier (mini golf)? I still stand by the thought that this was the typical cool nook-and-cranny style corner of a map where you just kind of have to hide something; although, ideally, nothing absolutely required for progression.

[Aleks]

ck3D, on 04 July 2021 - 09:08 PM, said:

Also I wonder which switch it is exactly that Mikko is talking about, I'm guessing the one in the bathrooms? Finding the entrance to the bathrooms was a bit tricky to me too for like two minutes but there are only so many options of where to explore at that stage, the correct direction is rather obvious in the grand scheme of things. Plus it instantly teaches you the whole mechanism in that map of having to consider the verticality and look up and not just around. Or maybe he was talking about the switch I was mentioning myself earlier (mini golf)? I still stand by the thought that this was the typical cool nook-and-cranny style corner of a map where you just kind of have to hide something; although, ideally, nothing absolutely required for progression.

Yeah I'm pretty sure Mikko means the switch in bathroom, the one in golf course is for a secret I think. I personally preferred when the bathroom switch was a keycard really, but I can see why Maarten changed it And on my first playthrough, I visited the bathroom before even finding a shotgun, also the babe under the shower was a strong visual clue to lead there as well.

As for which level was more memorable, it's hard to say really, since I only played Woudrichem once a year ago, and this one I've played 3 times quite recently and also beta-tested, so had to be more observant. WW had mostly the unique type of open gameplay which was really cool, this one on the other hand was probably more original and diversified in terms of theme.

[ck3D]

^ Yeah that's what I'm saying, there's no real 'topping' a former level in a binary way just like that (at this point in particular), just different style and focus on considering this or that aspect of the level as a medium. Do you want to favor the action, do you want to favor the mood, do you want to guide the player by the hand or do you want to lose them in the woods - every good level needs its direction, otherwise you end up with a mishmash of ideas that can only work as well as the sum of its parts but no extra. Here Maarten explored two different directions with equal success in my opinion, he could choose to explore more for the next maps as much as he wishes but if he ever felt like topping the ambitions of Woudrichem War in particular then I'm sure he easily could, he's already more experienced than back when made that first map, to me that's clear as day with this second one just because of the progress in the refinement of the direction. I'm just saying because I suspect even he underestimates that.

[Sanek]

Took me soem time, but finally managed to play the map!

I enjoyed this map a lot. It took me 42 minutes, found only 2 of 6 secrets. I like the scale of the map, how you managed to left the previous map almost intact, while also devoting enough resources to main area. It really gives you the vibes of player being in the world of some kind.
Little references/jokes is nice, some cool design here and there as well (love the tractor) but all things considered, I think that Part 1 is a better map of the map. It don't have enough indoor areas to compared to fist map and in the finale you basically repeat everything, where Duke must go to the rooftoop and then escape from the city asap.

Anyway, despite some very minor criticism, AA2 is a hell of a map, I enjoyed playing it.

[ck3D]

Sanek, on 08 July 2021 - 05:29 PM, said:

It don't have enough indoor areas to compared to fist map

I'm curious, is this a serious criteria to you (or anyone else) in general, or maybe something you specifically felt here for this map? Personally, these days I find indoor areas to be more and more played and think some maps can actually benefit from sticking to different strengths without the author thinking they have to spend resources on a billionth #toiletofbuild or three pixelated titty bars for no reason but the sake of it. So I actually appreciate it when a map just so happens to bravely challenge that trend. As long as the terrain is varied, interesting and the action feels great, then I personally have no problem with maps with zero indoor places or unnecessary doors that would otherwise just distract from the main focus and direction (which also has the side effect of making exceptions feel even more rewarding as secret places). Being confined to labyrinthine environments is its own kind of fun but personally I can only enjoy it in small doses, whereas the exploration of bigger open space I tend to find a lot cooler, and to be a path a tad less traveled too (since it breaks traditions established by Doom then reaffirmed by Quake, etc.).

[Sanek]

ck3D, on 09 July 2021 - 11:17 AM, said:

I'm curious, is this a serious criteria to you (or anyone else) in general, or maybe something you specifically felt here for this map?

Umm for this map only, I actually feel the same about open areas.

[Maarten]

Okay, I'm finally replying

Quote

No to me there is absolutely no doubt that you will, you're at a stage in your mapping where you've been especially grasping some of the most key concepts in general level design, such as proper utilization of scale according to the game's movement and physics, interesting layouts or the implementation of important landmarks, those two last maps in particular really demonstrated that. I think once one has made it past that gap you've leaped, then they can pretty much safely design whatever kind of level they want, and so if you feel like making something more ambitious than Woudrichem War then you easily could (the you of one year ago made that map, there's no reason why you couldn't beat it).

Thanks man! It's a nice thing to think about how maps like Spacetronic or Woudrichem weren't ment to be huge/epic/challenging at the start. It allways comes naturual: I just built wat I felt like, especially Woudrichem has a LOT of spontaneous stuff. Even the gameplay wasn't even planned when making the basics of Woudrichem,. My maps always seems to get bigger than planned (which I like), so I guess the thing I said (the 'I probably won't beat AAP1' thing) wasn't needed indeed.
I remember when making ABBA I got a little bit pressured by "making it detailed enough" or "don't forget to make special tricks, otherwise it's forgettable", nowadays I just build what I feel like, especially in design. The ABBA map is good and I'm still proud of it, but I remember it wasn't the most "fun" map at all compared to my last few maps & OGBB or even when finishing Imperium episode.

The same goes for your recent work btw! Impressive stuff!

Quote

Yeah I'm pretty sure Mikko means the switch in bathroom, the one in golf course is for a secret I think. I personally preferred when the bathroom switch was a keycard really

I preferred it as well.

Spoiler

The thing is, as you probably know, the fence-shortcut was bothering me too much, but after many failed tries I just ditched this idea).

but anyway you can still see the switch earlier @ bathroom so I guess Mikko wasn't paying too much attention since no one else got lost here when it comes to this part. There is this "secret broken stalking wall"

Quote

I think that Part 1 is a better map of the map. It don't have enough indoor areas to compared to fist map and in the finale you basically repeat everything, where Duke must go to the rooftoop and then escape from the city asap.

That's the fun and healthy thing of opinions: it's all about which style you prefer more I guess
For me, AAP1 is more "special", but I was forced to not use a lot of details in the city.
This time indeed less indoor buildings. like as I said before: I'm building mostly spontaneous, and this time I felt like making more outdoor but at same time a big indoor cave. Since I don't like to repeat myself too much, things got this way I guess

Maybe the "basics" of the climax is the same, but sometimes you need to have this "predictable" action in the end in a map like this IMO. Besides

Spoiler

I can't remember a spaceship destroying all the buildings you enter. Which also wasn't even planned at all when building this part

Thanks all for the replies!

[ck3D]

Radar's retake:

[ck3D]

Nacho/TLOD is about to start streaming both Another Attack maps live, thirty minutes from now:

[Baddog747]

ck3D, on 01 January 2024 - 10:03 AM, said:

Radar's retake:

Many thanks for that - two secrets were bothering me for ages. I knew about the cliff secret (by cheating) but could figure out how to get to it. I assumed (wrongly) that there was a switch that activated it or a jetpack was available. The waterfall was obvious, in retrospect.
However in my searching for "a switch" I found out that you could deactivate the campsite lower forcefield by pushing on the column behind where the switch was on the other side. This basically eliminated the need to go via the "blue route" - i.e. the cavern.

I also found the message "Look out behind U" and a "cardboard tank" by jumping round the fence after the red key gate. That should have been a secret :-)