[Maarten]

Hello community!

My new map 'Another Attack (part 2): Weissensee' has been released today!
The map contineus exactly where part 1 ends: more big worlds, nature, city & you also get to the other side of the bridge which you've seen in AAP1!
Gameplay is a little bit more straight forward as well.

Have fun!!!

Preview:

Attached File(s)

•  Aap2Weissensee.zip (14.38MB)
  Number of downloads: 574

[Maarten]

Also good to know: it works the best on CLASSIC MODE!
Also, it's Single-Player only!

[Merlijn]

Awesome, congrats with the release! I'll play the final version very soon.

[Aleks]

Congratulations with the release! Having tested it, I gotta say it's a must play for anyone even merely interested in Duke/Build maps I'll try playing the final version soon as well, curious to see the changes!

[ck3D]

Just from the beta, this is a fascinating map. Liked it a lot more than Woudrichem War somehow (and I did really like Woudrichem War), there is even more poetry to this one and both levels complement each other perfectly in how they function, as an extension to the first offering this is perfect. Will be playing the final version soon and review for CGS.

[Maarten]

Thanks ck3D, Aleks & Merlijn!
The map got a bigger upgrade than expected actually since the beta.

Hope you enjoy the final product!

[Nukem1994x]

Awesome! Can't wait to play this.

[Dynamo128]

Absolutely outstanding map! The previous map was already so great that doing a follow up was a tall order, but you have managed to create something every bit as epic, awe-inducing and straight up fun as its predecessor. Hats off to an amazing level designer!

[William Gee]

Congrats on the release Maarten!

I did beta test the map but here are my new thoughts after playing this new/finished version.

Really love the music you added, it super suits the level so well, perfect!
Love the gameplay! I died once by my own mistake, but still I was on low health the entire game! so that was a fun challenge to keep alive! Well balanced fun a varied gameplay!
Fantastic big dramatic areas, I never imagined you would make a map as good as the first, this may be better in some ways.
And I liked all of the improvements and changes you added since the beta test!

Took me 41 minutes to pass, only found 1 secret.

[Merlijn]

Played it twice, both on let's rock and come get some. Just a warning for anyone reading: gameplay gets significantly more difficult on CGS.
At least that's how it went for me, CGS did get me in a couple of tough situations but I managed to pull through without dying.
I would almost recommend LR for a first playthrough as CGS can get pretty insane, but it depends on how challenging you want the game to be.

Anyway, I think it's a worthy follow up to Woudrichem War. Like WG said in some ways it's actually better. It doesn't have the same open world type of gameplay.
But to compensate for that there's a larger variety of locations and combat also felt more varied to me. Moving from the nature / countryside theme to dark caverns to the big final act in the city.
It really feels like a complete experience. Not to say the first map didn't, but this one does feel more like an epic journey.

Then there's the fact that Woudrichem is still visible, with the bell tower still dominating the background and being visible from almost every angle.
I don't think that's ever been done. Not on this scale at least. Of course I recognize both Woudrichem and the camping site plus the Weissensee in this one. Pretty funny seeing them put together in 1 scene.
(to give some context to others reading this: Woudrichem is a town in The Netherlands while the Weissensee is a lake in Austria. ).

My favorite parts would be the golf / farmhouse section and the final battle. Speaking of which:

Spoiler

It's pretty funny how we were discussing Roch Island in the other topic, and it came up how our section was basically a prototype for our later maps. And then in here there's a very similar kind of ending, with the player having to scale a structure and having to fight 2 big waves of enemies. Of course the execution is a lot better here, makes the one in Roch Island feel pretty weak by comparison. In RI the enemies just kinda spawn in front of you, here's the big surprise with the alien ship which is a lot cooler

[Aleks]

Just played the final version, took me 58 minutes on CGS despite knowing the map, but then the enemy count was above 300 in the end You already got quite a detailed opinion from me, but I like how you polished some fights, enemies getting stuck or wandering off during these big encounters wasn't a problem anymore this time. Also noticed you added a new secret place, I remembered most other secrets back from testing when I was quite thoroughly exploring every corner, also managed to bump on this one a bit accidentally. One thing I'll still be nitpicking about is how you didn't unblock these poor holes at the golf course, so it isn't that much functional to its full potential - still it's probably my favourite area, along with the farm alongside the golf course and the camping at the beginning.

Oh, also noticed you added a steamboat swimming around, which is a nice touch! Also the beach area played a bit different this time, not sure if it was due to me taking another path first (and the Battlelord there definitely got relocated, to my great surprise - definitely for the better!). In general, I really dig how all the Battlelords are placed in this one, a couple of times they managed to ambush me quite well. Also, as Merlijn mentioned above, these massive liztroop swarms are implemented really well all throughout the map.

Also gotta compliment the music - funnily enough, after hearing just the first few beats I was a bit afraid if it won't be too much for the map of such a size and complexity, but then it all cooled down and got more melodic, making for a perfect fit!

The map has a lot of replay value, both due to how much there is to explore and how differently the big battles can play depending on your strategy. Overall, great job, Maarten!

[Maarten]

Dynamo128, on 27 June 2021 - 02:43 PM, said:

Absolutely outstanding map! The previous map was already so great that doing a follow up was a tall order, but you have managed to create something every bit as epic, awe-inducing and straight up fun as its predecessor. Hats off to an amazing level designer!

Glad to hear!! Especially back in January/February I got LOTS of time (lockdown anyone?) which also gave me LOTS of isnpiration for making this. Thanks for playing & commenting, Dynamo128!

Quote

Love the gameplay! I died once by my own mistake, but still I was on low health the entire game! so that was a fun challenge to keep alive! Well balanced fun a varied gameplay!
Fantastic big dramatic areas, I never imagined you would make a map as good as the first, this may be better in some ways.

Thanks, William!
As for me: AAP1 has a big size which I was going for, but at same time I was forced to make it not too detailed since the framerate got in the way.
This time around, maybe less "see everything in one time", but got more room for more detailed design. I like AAP1 (and I'm glad I was going for it) but I wanted more 'package", so I'm happy to read this!

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It really feels like a complete experience. Not to say the first map didn't, but this one does feel more like an epic journey. (...) My favorite parts would be the golf / farmhouse section and the final battle.

The funny thing is when starting: I just mapped what I felt like, didn't plan "different themes" at all. Acutally, the golf/farmhouse wasn't even planned at all! At least, not in this way.
I also agree LS is the best option for first time playing Actually, POC (I didn't even test it after all) should be a lot easier haha.
I also agree on the "spoiler" part. Since AAP1 I'm really loving to build some of my favourite real-life places which I visited.

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(...)nitpicking about is how you didn't unblock these poor holes at the golf course, so it isn't that much functional to its full potentia

Oops! The funny thing is, this was one of the last things I actually checked before releasing. I added some more golf-balls & holes...but somehow unblocking them didn't come to my mind at all! Oh well, it's almost the same effect anyway. Let's say those holes are filles with lava or something that destroys it

Glad you noticed all the difference since the beta, Aleks!

Quote

Also gotta compliment the music - funnily enough, after hearing just the first few beats I was a bit afraid if it won't be too much for the map of such a size and complexity, but then it all cooled down and got more melodic, making for a perfect fit!

Thanks! Took quite some time into the music, so that's good to hear. Also about the start being more "rough sounding" is exactly what I was going for; I like when music (and art/music in general) takes unexpected turns. Actually, this was in my mind for YEARS but never saw the moment to record it
since I didn't got the time, project to fit in & record material.

Thanks for all the comments!

[ck3D]

Merlijn, on 28 June 2021 - 10:28 AM, said:

Spoiler

It's pretty funny how we were discussing Roch Island in the other topic, and it came up how our section was basically a prototype for our later maps. And then in here there's a very similar kind of ending, with the player having to scale a structure and having to fight 2 big waves of enemies. Of course the execution is a lot better here, makes the one in Roch Island feel pretty weak by comparison. In RI the enemies just kinda spawn in front of you, here's the big surprise with the alien ship which is a lot cooler

No no, you think that's a trip but I'd say the real trip is when you realize the similarities between

Spoiler

the ending here and the one of Maarten Desert. By pure coincidence, I happened to take a look at that map just after I beta-tested Weissensee and it blew my mind. Maarten told me he didn't even realize it, but subconsciously he recreated the same 'sequence' twenty years apart!

[Merlijn]

Wow, I didn't even realize that but you're right!

I completely forgot to mention the music, but it's a great piece. Really adds to the nature / camping vibe of the map, I especially love the main piano melody and the heavy bass that comes in later.

PS: speaking of coincidences, this little connection can be found in the first Shaky Grounds, at the travel agency (made 5 years ago already, how time flies!):


It's all part of the Oostrum shared universe, folks.

[ck3D]

^ Ha! That's just great!

[Maarten]

Merlijn, on 29 June 2021 - 06:29 AM, said:

Wow, I didn't even realize that but you're right!

I completely forgot to mention the music, but it's a great piece. Really adds to the nature / camping vibe of the map, I especially love the main piano melody and the heavy bass that comes in later.

Thanks!
The heavier ending was all made up spontaneous while recording. Guess I can't escape from climax/heavier style XD

Yeah that was a fun coincidence, the Wiessensee art in your map!

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No no, you think that's a trip but I'd say the real trip is when you realize the similarities between(.....)

Haha you just made me play

Spoiler

MaaDS once again, I was surprised even the spaceship-shape and sector use is very similar. Also a fun thing, although MaaDS is quite action packed..back then I was thinking it might be too hard for some players. Things have changed last..10 (or more) years? Haha!

[Nukem1994x]

I just finished playing the map on CGS and I loved it! Great work on this! I'll replay through it again later to look for the secrets that I missed through my 1st playthrough. Will there be a part 3 in the future?

[ck3D]

Finally played the final version and had a blast just like the first time. I could still clip through that fence though, every time, haha. But I insisted on doing it legit and took 66 minutes (taking breaks every now and then for screenshots). For some reason, one switch in the last part got me stumped for 10 minutes before I realized or remembered where it was (spoiler: it was the one at the very end of the main street), but the security camera really helped there, had to go by the textures (which I also remember doing a few times for another switch on the beta version, which I actually find really cool of a concept when it's implemented that well). I died twice: once when I was trying to take a screenshot with my weapon lowered after the last big battle and an unusually silent Commander shot me in the back with a rocket (I could have sworn I had gotten them all before going to take the screenshot), and then at the end due to running on 8 HP and still having to jump that one very last gap in the ground without enduring fall damage (actually took three reloads to get right, so I lied, I actually died four times).

Here's my review for CGS with screenshots, going up soon:

Spoiler

Another Attack (Part 2): Weissensee

Less than a year after his former hit Woudrichem War, longtime renowned Duke 3D user mapper from the Netherlands Maarten van Oostrum strikes again with what's already the second installment in his work-in-progress episode: Another Attack.

Not to be confused with his brother Merlijn Van Oostrum's (Red, Shaky Grounds), which relies on the same principle of cleverly reinterpreting and repurposing the original Duke 3D textures but in a fashion that always looked a bit more meticulous, Maarten's style has always instead been about rougher shapes and bigger patches of lands, with less emphasis on micromanagement than on composing coherent ensembles of landscapes of elements seemingly thrown in there Jason Pollock-style. (That being said, over the past two decades, it has been rather interesting witnessing each brother get closer and closer to the other's dimension with every new map). While this aspect was already the backbone of some classic levels by Maarten, including the Alien Planet X-64 2 series or his shared piece with Merlijn Clear The Coast, it really was exploited to its fullest recently with Woudrichem War, an open world-type of city level recreating Dutch urban aesthetics Maarten happens to be especially familiar with. This new level, Weissensee, is a direct continuation to Woudrichem War, picking up exactly where that one left off.

Given the enhanced focus on terrain work, it is only logical to expect from both Woudrichem War and Weissensee a huge reliance on platforming, which turns out to be true in both cases. In this level too, the player is required to look not just around but most oftentimes up, spot their next objective (usually a keycard out there in plain sight) and then figure out the right way to get there. But if Woudrichem essentially consisted in one big, mostly unlinear playground based on this concept, things take a slightly different turn here by breaking down the gameplay area into four subsections: a camping site, a cave and a mini golf site on one side of a river (where part of Woudrichem still stands in the background), and then, on the other side, part of the eponymous city of Weissensee itself (although located in Austria in real-life; so, rather far away from Woudrichem). The basic challenge remains similar, except the newfound punctuation in the action helps push a more tangible feeling of progression onto the player and thus makes the progressive conquest of each segment especially rewarding. The map isn't exactly linear either; there is one part where you can explore about and choose to retrieve two different keys in whichever order. This style of minimalistic sequencing also allows for smoother narration in the general storytelling of the map, with the player remaining mostly free to roam around, shoot some well-placed monsters and stare at beautiful Build environments all the while being dictated a basic direction and rhythm.

This is where the poetry of the map speaks up. The environments you will get to traverse are stunning, from detailed landscapes comprising ancient towers, a bridge and a church to a stunning blue cave, and some other places that will take you way up, where you can finally dominate the landscape (again). Just clearing the first half of the map and finally getting to cross the river is a simple achievement that, with such proper presentation, feels nothing short of majestic. Bits of lore are being dropped here and there, but never pushed onto the player and thus mostly consolidate the action as opposed to distracting from it (like it often can in Duke maps). Each location has its own distinct identity, with the ultimate one being the largest and a (refreshingly) brutally honest switch hunt - perhaps one of the most rewarding ones Duke 3D has ever known given the visuals resulting from its completion - as, eventually, everything comes tied together by universal elements such as that moving bus or boat in the backgrounds.

When it comes to gameplay, more generally, there is nothing to fault. Perhaps the average player might scratch their head a bit looking for a way to get to the red key, but that's only if they are lacking observation skills or basic knowledge of Duke 3D physics. Generally speaking, the map is way more than fair (maybe a lot less forgiving on Come Get Some than on Let's Rock), and the enemy placement is perfectly orchestrated around all the existing terrain work - usually relying on well-timed respawns - in a way that both optimally complement each other, resulting in nothing but peak Duke 3D action.

Weissensee is a beautiful level with soul, that looks marvelous and plays really well. Maybe some of the texture and sprite tweaks here and there (such as the flipped over security screens) persist at looking a bit out of place, and since Maarten's style naturally results in terrain so rich in nooks and crannies, it's tempting to imagine him exploiting that trait even further by hiding more of the non-essential items in all those little caches (something he is already doing to a noticeable extent, though). But there is no question that Weissensee is an instant classic, on par if not wiser than Woudrichem War, and so you should play it - which should take you about an hour - and then, once done, rub your hands together in excitement at the thought of the upcoming sequels.

Score: 98

[Maarten]

Nukem1994x, on 29 June 2021 - 08:35 AM, said:

I just finished playing the map on CGS and I loved it! Great work on this! I'll replay through it again later to look for the secrets that I missed through my 1st playthrough. Will there be a part 3 in the future?

Glad to read this, thanks Nukem1994x!
Most of the secrets shouldn't be too hard (atlhough 2 opf them are really sneaky). Tip: some are more in view than expected! Also: at times I'm using 1 method of the original game (tip: wall / water).
I do have ideas for a sequel(s), it's all about time/inspiration/live stuff. Since we had a pretty heavy lockdown for a while, I had lots of time and inspiration for AAP2 (and actually also AAP1 for a part). As you might guess, it would be start exactly where this one ends
For now, a small break (and also another somehwat Duke-related project which I won't tell yet).

@CK3D: Wow, that's a really big, praising but also honest review!! I wanna thank everyone for the long posts, now we're at it Glad about the score as well!! The screens show a lot, but that's all fine with me

[ck3D]

I'm glad you're happy with it. It's fine to show some of the coolest stuff in screenshots in the context of a review, no? That's always been my understanding, at least. The map is out and available for people to play, so you want to catch the potential player's attention with all the goodies, unlike when you're teasing something that has yet to come out where then it's spoilers that you want to avoid. Also, the sight of a complete scene usually has the side effect of letting said potential player imagine themselves how to get there, so I don't think screenshots necessarily give the actual experience away. I can always submit different screenshots if so you wish, but I can't shake the feeling that most reviewers would want to show that stuff.

About the comment on all the nooks and crannies, that's something I guess I felt during the beta-testing but didn't really think about until this newer playthrough, where I happened to be running low on either health or shotgun/chaingun ammo in some segments (this is not a problem as I was always supplied alternate weaponry and items to compensate, which is actually really good and always much better than having the player constantly rely on shotgun/chaingun in safe environments), and in situations like this it's really tempting to just jump and duck and search behind every little emergent corner, chunk of land or bush sprite as if to see if the author themselves realized they could hide stuff there. Your map is full of tiny little places like that where small time goodies could be hidden in plain sight (a counter-example of one that you exploited perfectly is the switch opposite to Leonard's house near the mini golf, your style would lend itself really well to using the terrain like this on a more consistent basis), for the player it's naturally tempting to check those loose corners and it can feel a bit disappointing in the moment when they turn out to be just there and not serve a practical purpose like the mapper didn't really consider them. It's also cool when most of the time there is nothing, but there is a balance to be found I think.

Another (similar) minor nitpick would be I think mappers should hide stuff within (at least some) barrels, bins, etc. when they use them in their Duke 3D levels, the original game had those sprites serve that particular purpose of concealing rewards (or hazards) and so it's deeply ingrained in the player's mind that sometimes those objects should spawn stuff and are worth wasting ammo and time on.

But when that's all I can observe is missing from a user map is saying a lot! Level is fantastic, just dropping some food for thought to try and inspire you further down your own direction for your next ones.

Also there is some annoying redundancy in the version of the review posted in this thread (which I can't edit) - hadn't proof-read yet. I just fixed those instances in the version to be published on CGS.

[Aleks]

The review was great to read, I think MRCK managed to bring out a lot of the more in-depth details and stuff which makes this map great that might not be really thought about by regular players, or might be then attributed to hard to grasp words like "atmosphere" or "vibe", while here it's all analyzed like in a professional research work

As for the health/ammo balance, I found it perfect here, couldn't just rely on shotgun/chaingun indeed, also all the pistols scattered around did serve a purpose this time as I kept using it for long range shooting, especially with the troopers.

Quote

Another minor nitpick would be I think mappers should hide stuff within (at least some) barrels, bins, etc. when they use them in their Duke 3D levels, the original game had those sprites serve that particular purpose of concealing rewards (or hazards) and so it's deeply ingrained in the player's mind that sometimes those objects should spawn stuff and are worth wasting ammo and time on.

I think mostly Levelord used the bins and barrels like that, while Blum didn't put that much care into it, so I guess both approaches are fine - but personally I also always like finding something inside a barrel or bin and usually put there stuff myself as well. Glad to see there's other people who would still care for this kind of details

[ck3D]

Thanks. One more thing I didn't mention in the review, but especially appreciated as a player is how the whole layout was articulated around all the spectacular views the design has to offer. Too many mappers just throw their windows and perspectives down as a mere afterthought or purely with gameplay function in mind, but don't really think about global aesthetics like this, when I think they are key to what makes a level not just good but great. I hope the trend catches on!

And yeah, I (again) agree on how the gameplay is just perfect in this level. Again great use of the respawns and sweet item distribution overall, I can tell lots of care was put into making this piece not just a visual stunfest but also a great level to play altogether. Obviously, if a map overly relies on shotgun/chaingun then that's just a sign it's boring. I particularly liked the abundance of pipebombs here; worked really well with the open field.

[Maarten]

ck3D, on 30 June 2021 - 07:46 AM, said:

I'm glad you're happy with it. It's fine to show some of the coolest stuff in screenshots in the context of a review, no? That's always been my understanding, at least. The map is out and available for people to play, so you want to catch the potential player's attention with all the goodies, unlike when you're teasing something that has yet to come out where then it's spoilers that you want to avoid. Also, the sight of a complete scene usually has the side effect of letting said potential player imagine themselves how to get there, so I don't think screenshots necessarily give the actual experience away. I can always submit different screenshots, but I can't shake the feeling that most reviewers would want to show that stuff.

Maybe I said it wrong, it didn't bother me at all! Just noted it. I totally agree, screens are almost like "promotion material" to get people's attention/make it wanna download, even tho this is all a hobby. of course

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Another minor nitpick would be I think mappers should hide stuff within (at least some) barrels, bins, etc. when they use them in their Duke 3D levels, the original game had those sprites serve that particular purpose of concealing rewards (or hazards) and so it's deeply ingrained in the player's mind that sometimes those objects should spawn stuff and are worth wasting ammo and time on.

But when that's all I can observe is missing from a user map is saying a lot! Level is fantastic, just dropping some food for thought to try and inspire you further down your own direction for your next ones.

Good point! I actually really like using "old original DN3D" stuff, but somehow this didn't come to my mind. Like as you said, it's minor stuff anyway, but interesting to read

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As for the health/ammo balance, I found it perfect here, couldn't just rely on shotgun/chaingun indeed,

I actually take that as a big compliment. I know there are user-maps out there that really rely on shotgun/chaingun (and thats'fine too of course) but for me I also love to be creative and use all (including tripbombs and freezer!) weapons. So I'm glad to read people actually had to haha

Quote

(...)I hope the trend catches on!

That would be awesome, new trends after 25 years I'm really curious to future outputs of you/Aleks and all other mappers!

Thanks again for all the comments!

[Nukem1994x]

You're welcome, Maarten! and nice! I enjoy looking for the secrets especially when they're well hidden. AAP2 is just as good as AAP1 and both maps cleverly done.

[Aleks]

ck3D, on 30 June 2021 - 08:10 AM, said:

Thanks. One more thing I didn't mention in the review, but especially appreciated as a player is how the whole layout was articulated around all the spectacular views the design has to offer. Too many mappers just throw their windows and perspectives down as a mere afterthought or purely with gameplay function in mind, but don't really think about global aesthetics like this, when I think they are key to what makes a level not just good but great. I hope the trend catches on!

Agree on how well this functioned in here, I think even during the beta testing I praised how cool these small "windows" where you could peak on what's ahead of you were towards the end of cave/forest section, but the one spot that truely shines here and was super impressive through each playthrough for me was when emerging from the caves with "Aaaahh, much better" then having a really cool view of the whole camp and Woudrichem. Even how this spot is accented with Duke talking and no surprise enemy ambush is really nice touch here.

[ck3D]

^ Yeah that bit hit the spot for me too, and use of Duke talk very rarely does because I'm so desensitized.

Radar just uploaded the video of his playthrough of the map, paired up with AMC TC:



Also, CGS review is up: http://www.scent-88....weiss/weiss.php

[Maarten]

That video was really fun to see, thanks for the link!

Also thanks again for the review.
Oh btw, I know the txt file of this unloaded version says Coop/DM is implemented, while it isn't this time around. I actually forgot it xD I wonder if people still play DM/Coop these days tho

[Aleks]

Mikko's review is up: https://msdn.duke4.n...tweissensee.php
Congrats on the score!

[Maarten]

Thanks for the link! I just saw it as well before coming here haha

I'm really satisfied with the reviews, comments and even a video. Also, funny to see opinions can differ! That's a healthy thing after all
I'm aware AAP1 has more unique/daring stuff which I probably won't beat, but for me, AAP2 has a more "package" feel.

Heh, also funny about the "musican in real life", why it's partly true, it's still a hobby

[William Gee]

Very cool! congrats on the review.
The cave area really does remind me of your imperium map.