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[RELEASE] Another Attack (Part 2): Weissensee  "Sequel on Woudrichem War!"

User is offline   Maarten 

#1

Hello community!

My new map 'Another Attack (part 2): Weissensee' has been released today!
The map contineus exactly where part 1 ends: more big worlds, nature, city & you also get to the other side of the bridge which you've seen in AAP1!
Gameplay is a little bit more straight forward as well.

Have fun!!!

Preview:

Attached File(s)


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User is offline   Maarten 

#2

Also good to know: it works the best on CLASSIC MODE!
Also, it's Single-Player only!
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User is offline   Merlijn 

#3

Awesome, congrats with the release! I'll play the final version very soon. ^_^
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User is offline   Aleks 

#4

Congratulations with the release! Having tested it, I gotta say it's a must play for anyone even merely interested in Duke/Build maps :D I'll try playing the final version soon as well, curious to see the changes! :)
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User is online   ck3D 

#5

Just from the beta, this is a fascinating map. Liked it a lot more than Woudrichem War somehow (and I did really like Woudrichem War), there is even more poetry to this one and both levels complement each other perfectly in how they function, as an extension to the first offering this is perfect. Will be playing the final version soon and review for CGS.
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User is offline   Maarten 

#6

Thanks ck3D, Aleks & Merlijn!
The map got a bigger upgrade than expected actually since the beta.

Hope you enjoy the final product!
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User is offline   Nukem1994x 

#7

Awesome! Can't wait to play this. :)
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User is offline   Dynamo128 

#8

Absolutely outstanding map! The previous map was already so great that doing a follow up was a tall order, but you have managed to create something every bit as epic, awe-inducing and straight up fun as its predecessor. Hats off to an amazing level designer!
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#9

Congrats on the release Maarten!

I did beta test the map but here are my new thoughts after playing this new/finished version.

Really love the music you added, it super suits the level so well, perfect!
Love the gameplay! I died once by my own mistake, but still I was on low health the entire game! so that was a fun challenge to keep alive! Well balanced fun a varied gameplay!
Fantastic big dramatic areas, I never imagined you would make a map as good as the first, this may be better in some ways. :o
And I liked all of the improvements and changes you added since the beta test!

Took me 41 minutes to pass, only found 1 secret.
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User is offline   Merlijn 

#10

Played it twice, both on let's rock and come get some. Just a warning for anyone reading: gameplay gets significantly more difficult on CGS.
At least that's how it went for me, CGS did get me in a couple of tough situations but I managed to pull through without dying. :D
I would almost recommend LR for a first playthrough as CGS can get pretty insane, but it depends on how challenging you want the game to be.

Anyway, I think it's a worthy follow up to Woudrichem War. Like WG said in some ways it's actually better. It doesn't have the same open world type of gameplay.
But to compensate for that there's a larger variety of locations and combat also felt more varied to me. Moving from the nature / countryside theme to dark caverns to the big final act in the city.
It really feels like a complete experience. Not to say the first map didn't, but this one does feel more like an epic journey.

Then there's the fact that Woudrichem is still visible, with the bell tower still dominating the background and being visible from almost every angle.
I don't think that's ever been done. Not on this scale at least. Of course I recognize both Woudrichem and the camping site plus the Weissensee in this one. Pretty funny seeing them put together in 1 scene.
(to give some context to others reading this: Woudrichem is a town in The Netherlands while the Weissensee is a lake in Austria. :P).

My favorite parts would be the golf / farmhouse section and the final battle. Speaking of which:
Spoiler


This post has been edited by Merlijn: 28 June 2021 - 10:30 AM

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User is offline   Aleks 

#11

Just played the final version, took me 58 minutes on CGS despite knowing the map, but then the enemy count was above 300 in the end :D You already got quite a detailed opinion from me, but I like how you polished some fights, enemies getting stuck or wandering off during these big encounters wasn't a problem anymore this time. Also noticed you added a new secret place, I remembered most other secrets back from testing when I was quite thoroughly exploring every corner, also managed to bump on this one a bit accidentally. One thing I'll still be nitpicking about is how you didn't unblock these poor holes at the golf course, so it isn't that much functional to its full potential - still it's probably my favourite area, along with the farm alongside the golf course and the camping at the beginning.

Oh, also noticed you added a steamboat swimming around, which is a nice touch! Also the beach area played a bit different this time, not sure if it was due to me taking another path first (and the Battlelord there definitely got relocated, to my great surprise - definitely for the better!). In general, I really dig how all the Battlelords are placed in this one, a couple of times they managed to ambush me quite well. Also, as Merlijn mentioned above, these massive liztroop swarms are implemented really well all throughout the map.

Also gotta compliment the music - funnily enough, after hearing just the first few beats I was a bit afraid if it won't be too much for the map of such a size and complexity, but then it all cooled down and got more melodic, making for a perfect fit!

The map has a lot of replay value, both due to how much there is to explore and how differently the big battles can play depending on your strategy. Overall, great job, Maarten!
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User is offline   Maarten 

#12

View PostDynamo128, on 27 June 2021 - 02:43 PM, said:

Absolutely outstanding map! The previous map was already so great that doing a follow up was a tall order, but you have managed to create something every bit as epic, awe-inducing and straight up fun as its predecessor. Hats off to an amazing level designer!


Glad to hear!! Especially back in January/February I got LOTS of time (lockdown anyone?) which also gave me LOTS of isnpiration for making this. Thanks for playing & commenting, Dynamo128!


Quote

Love the gameplay! I died once by my own mistake, but still I was on low health the entire game! so that was a fun challenge to keep alive! Well balanced fun a varied gameplay!
Fantastic big dramatic areas, I never imagined you would make a map as good as the first, this may be better in some ways. :o



Thanks, William!
As for me: AAP1 has a big size which I was going for, but at same time I was forced to make it not too detailed since the framerate got in the way.
This time around, maybe less "see everything in one time", but got more room for more detailed design. I like AAP1 (and I'm glad I was going for it) but I wanted more 'package", so I'm happy to read this!

Quote

It really feels like a complete experience. Not to say the first map didn't, but this one does feel more like an epic journey. (...) My favorite parts would be the golf / farmhouse section and the final battle.



The funny thing is when starting: I just mapped what I felt like, didn't plan "different themes" at all. Acutally, the golf/farmhouse wasn't even planned at all! At least, not in this way.
I also agree LS is the best option for first time playing :) Actually, POC (I didn't even test it after all) should be a lot easier haha.
I also agree on the "spoiler" part. Since AAP1 I'm really loving to build some of my favourite real-life places which I visited.

Quote

(...)nitpicking about is how you didn't unblock these poor holes at the golf course, so it isn't that much functional to its full potentia


Oops! The funny thing is, this was one of the last things I actually checked before releasing. I added some more golf-balls & holes...but somehow unblocking them didn't come to my mind at all! Oh well, it's almost the same effect anyway. Let's say those holes are filles with lava or something that destroys it ;)

Glad you noticed all the difference since the beta, Aleks!

Quote

Also gotta compliment the music - funnily enough, after hearing just the first few beats I was a bit afraid if it won't be too much for the map of such a size and complexity, but then it all cooled down and got more melodic, making for a perfect fit!


Thanks! Took quite some time into the music, so that's good to hear. Also about the start being more "rough sounding" is exactly what I was going for; I like when music (and art/music in general) takes unexpected turns. Actually, this was in my mind for YEARS but never saw the moment to record it
since I didn't got the time, project to fit in & record material.

Thanks for all the comments!
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User is online   ck3D 

#13

View PostMerlijn, on 28 June 2021 - 10:28 AM, said:

Spoiler



No no, you think that's a trip but I'd say the real trip is when you realize the similarities between

Spoiler


This post has been edited by ck3D: 29 June 2021 - 05:45 AM

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User is offline   Merlijn 

#14

Wow, I didn't even realize that but you're right!

I completely forgot to mention the music, but it's a great piece. Really adds to the nature / camping vibe of the map, I especially love the main piano melody and the heavy bass that comes in later.

PS: speaking of coincidences, this little connection can be found in the first Shaky Grounds, at the travel agency (made 5 years ago already, how time flies!):
Attached Image: capt0021.png

It's all part of the Oostrum shared universe, folks. ;)
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User is online   ck3D 

#15

^ Ha! That's just great!
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User is offline   Maarten 

#16

View PostMerlijn, on 29 June 2021 - 06:29 AM, said:

Wow, I didn't even realize that but you're right!

I completely forgot to mention the music, but it's a great piece. Really adds to the nature / camping vibe of the map, I especially love the main piano melody and the heavy bass that comes in later.


Thanks!
The heavier ending was all made up spontaneous while recording. Guess I can't escape from climax/heavier style XD

Yeah that was a fun coincidence, the Wiessensee art in your map!


Quote

No no, you think that's a trip but I'd say the real trip is when you realize the similarities between(.....)

Haha you just made me play
Spoiler

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User is offline   Nukem1994x 

#17

I just finished playing the map on CGS and I loved it! :) Great work on this! I'll replay through it again later to look for the secrets that I missed through my 1st playthrough. Will there be a part 3 in the future?
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User is online   ck3D 

#18

Finally played the final version and had a blast just like the first time. I could still clip through that fence though, every time, haha. But I insisted on doing it legit and took 66 minutes (taking breaks every now and then for screenshots). For some reason, one switch in the last part got me stumped for 10 minutes before I realized or remembered where it was (spoiler: it was the one at the very end of the main street), but the security camera really helped there, had to go by the textures (which I also remember doing a few times for another switch on the beta version, which I actually find really cool of a concept when it's implemented that well). I died twice: once when I was trying to take a screenshot with my weapon lowered after the last big battle and an unusually silent Commander shot me in the back with a rocket (I could have sworn I had gotten them all before going to take the screenshot), and then at the end due to running on 8 HP and still having to jump that one very last gap in the ground without enduring fall damage (actually took three reloads to get right, so I lied, I actually died four times).

Here's my review for CGS with screenshots, going up soon:

Spoiler


This post has been edited by ck3D: 29 June 2021 - 07:51 PM

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User is offline   Maarten 

#19

View PostNukem1994x, on 29 June 2021 - 08:35 AM, said:

I just finished playing the map on CGS and I loved it! :) Great work on this! I'll replay through it again later to look for the secrets that I missed through my 1st playthrough. Will there be a part 3 in the future?


Glad to read this, thanks Nukem1994x!
Most of the secrets shouldn't be too hard (atlhough 2 opf them are really sneaky). Tip: some are more in view than expected! Also: at times I'm using 1 method of the original game (tip: wall / water).
I do have ideas for a sequel(s), it's all about time/inspiration/live stuff. Since we had a pretty heavy lockdown for a while, I had lots of time and inspiration for AAP2 (and actually also AAP1 for a part). As you might guess, it would be start exactly where this one ends :)
For now, a small break (and also another somehwat Duke-related project which I won't tell yet).

@CK3D: Wow, that's a really big, praising but also honest review!! I wanna thank everyone for the long posts, now we're at it :) Glad about the score as well!! The screens show a lot, but that's all fine with me :)
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User is online   ck3D 

#20

I'm glad you're happy with it. It's fine to show some of the coolest stuff in screenshots in the context of a review, no? That's always been my understanding, at least. The map is out and available for people to play, so you want to catch the potential player's attention with all the goodies, unlike when you're teasing something that has yet to come out where then it's spoilers that you want to avoid. Also, the sight of a complete scene usually has the side effect of letting said potential player imagine themselves how to get there, so I don't think screenshots necessarily give the actual experience away. I can always submit different screenshots if so you wish, but I can't shake the feeling that most reviewers would want to show that stuff.

About the comment on all the nooks and crannies, that's something I guess I felt during the beta-testing but didn't really think about until this newer playthrough, where I happened to be running low on either health or shotgun/chaingun ammo in some segments (this is not a problem as I was always supplied alternate weaponry and items to compensate, which is actually really good and always much better than having the player constantly rely on shotgun/chaingun in safe environments), and in situations like this it's really tempting to just jump and duck and search behind every little emergent corner, chunk of land or bush sprite as if to see if the author themselves realized they could hide stuff there. Your map is full of tiny little places like that where small time goodies could be hidden in plain sight (a counter-example of one that you exploited perfectly is the switch opposite to Leonard's house near the mini golf, your style would lend itself really well to using the terrain like this on a more consistent basis), for the player it's naturally tempting to check those loose corners and it can feel a bit disappointing in the moment when they turn out to be just there and not serve a practical purpose like the mapper didn't really consider them. It's also cool when most of the time there is nothing, but there is a balance to be found I think.

Another (similar) minor nitpick would be I think mappers should hide stuff within (at least some) barrels, bins, etc. when they use them in their Duke 3D levels, the original game had those sprites serve that particular purpose of concealing rewards (or hazards) and so it's deeply ingrained in the player's mind that sometimes those objects should spawn stuff and are worth wasting ammo and time on.

But when that's all I can observe is missing from a user map is saying a lot! Level is fantastic, just dropping some food for thought to try and inspire you further down your own direction for your next ones.

Also there is some annoying redundancy in the version of the review posted in this thread (which I can't edit) - hadn't proof-read yet. I just fixed those instances in the version to be published on CGS.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 30 June 2021 - 08:04 AM

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User is offline   Aleks 

#21

The review was great to read, I think MRCK managed to bring out a lot of the more in-depth details and stuff which makes this map great that might not be really thought about by regular players, or might be then attributed to hard to grasp words like "atmosphere" or "vibe", while here it's all analyzed like in a professional research work :)

As for the health/ammo balance, I found it perfect here, couldn't just rely on shotgun/chaingun indeed, also all the pistols scattered around did serve a purpose this time as I kept using it for long range shooting, especially with the troopers.

Quote

Another minor nitpick would be I think mappers should hide stuff within (at least some) barrels, bins, etc. when they use them in their Duke 3D levels, the original game had those sprites serve that particular purpose of concealing rewards (or hazards) and so it's deeply ingrained in the player's mind that sometimes those objects should spawn stuff and are worth wasting ammo and time on.



I think mostly Levelord used the bins and barrels like that, while Blum didn't put that much care into it, so I guess both approaches are fine - but personally I also always like finding something inside a barrel or bin and usually put there stuff myself as well. Glad to see there's other people who would still care for this kind of details :D
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User is online   ck3D 

#22

Thanks. One more thing I didn't mention in the review, but especially appreciated as a player is how the whole layout was articulated around all the spectacular views the design has to offer. Too many mappers just throw their windows and perspectives down as a mere afterthought or purely with gameplay function in mind, but don't really think about global aesthetics like this, when I think they are key to what makes a level not just good but great. I hope the trend catches on!

And yeah, I (again) agree on how the gameplay is just perfect in this level. Again great use of the respawns and sweet item distribution overall, I can tell lots of care was put into making this piece not just a visual stunfest but also a great level to play altogether. Obviously, if a map overly relies on shotgun/chaingun then that's just a sign it's boring. I particularly liked the abundance of pipebombs here; worked really well with the open field.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 30 June 2021 - 08:15 AM

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User is offline   Maarten 

#23

View Postck3D, on 30 June 2021 - 07:46 AM, said:

I'm glad you're happy with it. It's fine to show some of the coolest stuff in screenshots in the context of a review, no? That's always been my understanding, at least. The map is out and available for people to play, so you want to catch the potential player's attention with all the goodies, unlike when you're teasing something that has yet to come out where then it's spoilers that you want to avoid. Also, the sight of a complete scene usually has the side effect of letting said potential player imagine themselves how to get there, so I don't think screenshots necessarily give the actual experience away. I can always submit different screenshots, but I can't shake the feeling that most reviewers would want to show that stuff.


Maybe I said it wrong, it didn't bother me at all! Just noted it. I totally agree, screens are almost like "promotion material" to get people's attention/make it wanna download, even tho this is all a hobby. of course


Quote

Another minor nitpick would be I think mappers should hide stuff within (at least some) barrels, bins, etc. when they use them in their Duke 3D levels, the original game had those sprites serve that particular purpose of concealing rewards (or hazards) and so it's deeply ingrained in the player's mind that sometimes those objects should spawn stuff and are worth wasting ammo and time on.

But when that's all I can observe is missing from a user map is saying a lot! Level is fantastic, just dropping some food for thought to try and inspire you further down your own direction for your next ones.


Good point! I actually really like using "old original DN3D" stuff, but somehow this didn't come to my mind. Like as you said, it's minor stuff anyway, but interesting to read :)

Quote

As for the health/ammo balance, I found it perfect here, couldn't just rely on shotgun/chaingun indeed,

I actually take that as a big compliment. I know there are user-maps out there that really rely on shotgun/chaingun (and thats'fine too of course) but for me I also love to be creative and use all (including tripbombs and freezer!) weapons. So I'm glad to read people actually had to haha

Quote

(...)I hope the trend catches on!

That would be awesome, new trends after 25 years :) I'm really curious to future outputs of you/Aleks and all other mappers!

Thanks again for all the comments!

This post has been edited by Maarten: 30 June 2021 - 08:19 AM

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User is offline   Nukem1994x 

#24

You're welcome, Maarten! and nice! I enjoy looking for the secrets especially when they're well hidden. :) AAP2 is just as good as AAP1 and both maps cleverly done.
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User is offline   Aleks 

#25

View Postck3D, on 30 June 2021 - 08:10 AM, said:

Thanks. One more thing I didn't mention in the review, but especially appreciated as a player is how the whole layout was articulated around all the spectacular views the design has to offer. Too many mappers just throw their windows and perspectives down as a mere afterthought or purely with gameplay function in mind, but don't really think about global aesthetics like this, when I think they are key to what makes a level not just good but great. I hope the trend catches on!

Agree on how well this functioned in here, I think even during the beta testing I praised how cool these small "windows" where you could peak on what's ahead of you were towards the end of cave/forest section, but the one spot that truely shines here and was super impressive through each playthrough for me was when emerging from the caves with "Aaaahh, much better" then having a really cool view of the whole camp and Woudrichem. Even how this spot is accented with Duke talking and no surprise enemy ambush is really nice touch here.
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User is online   ck3D 

#26

^ Yeah that bit hit the spot for me too, and use of Duke talk very rarely does because I'm so desensitized.

Radar just uploaded the video of his playthrough of the map, paired up with AMC TC:



Also, CGS review is up: http://www.scent-88....weiss/weiss.php

This post has been edited by ck3D: 30 June 2021 - 11:01 AM

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User is offline   Maarten 

#27

That video was really fun to see, thanks for the link!

Also thanks again for the review.
Oh btw, I know the txt file of this unloaded version says Coop/DM is implemented, while it isn't this time around. I actually forgot it xD I wonder if people still play DM/Coop these days tho
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User is offline   Aleks 

#28

Mikko's review is up: https://msdn.duke4.n...tweissensee.php
Congrats on the score! :)
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User is offline   Maarten 

#29

Thanks for the link! I just saw it as well before coming here haha :D

I'm really satisfied with the reviews, comments and even a video. Also, funny to see opinions can differ! That's a healthy thing after all :)
I'm aware AAP1 has more unique/daring stuff which I probably won't beat, but for me, AAP2 has a more "package" feel.

Heh, also funny about the "musican in real life", why it's partly true, it's still a hobby :P
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#30

Very cool! congrats on the review.
The cave area really does remind me of your imperium map.
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