[Aleks]

duke3d.exe, on 25 March 2021 - 04:57 PM, said:

Im on level 1, cool map so far, but i've encountered some potential bugs:

Thanks for playing and raising some concerns here! As Mister Sinister mentioned, the sign appears when you are above the 15 minutes limit and means that you've unfortunately ran out of time and have to retake the mission. Shouldn't take you more than 15 minutes to do so, and I guess it'll be faster on 2nd playthrough Only this first mission has a time limit like this, otherwise it would be quite dickish to potentially mess up people's save games.

As for the other things:

Spoiler

• The shower stall with naked girl unlocks only after visiting a certain secret place, otherwise you're just able to take a sneak-peek inside. But it's not necessary for progression to enter it
• The clipping sprites might be a result of the renderer you're using. The maps were designed with Polymost in mind, so it's best to go for it. Classic should look fine as well for the most part, but may suffer from clipping sprites here and there (most notably in the prison map). Polymer was not tested, but if you can run Polymer, then you can also run Polymost anyway.
• The vault door had to be designed like that "charging at the player" instead of regular swing door behaviour to make sure the sequencing of the door can't be broke.

[Mister Sinister]

I can't recall if there's some sort of a clue to indicate that player is running out of time aside from the laptop at the start. Maybe it's a good idea to add one.
I've added a sound cue to my time limit map indicating certain milestones, though the idea of the map is a bit more brutal than what's presented in here.

[Aleks]

Here's another video of Back in Business, this time the whole episode in a single movie:

[NightFright]

On the first map in the start room, the keyboard of the security monitor doesn't seem to be floor-aligned, which looks weird since the place where the keyboard is supposed to be is wood and the keyboard itself is a sprite. See image

*EDIT*
Disregard, only happens in Raze.

[Aleks]

NightFright, on 03 May 2021 - 05:04 AM, said:

On the first map in the start room, the keyboard of the security monitor doesn't seem to be floor-aligned, which looks weird since the place where the keyboard is supposed to be is wood and the keyboard itself is a sprite. See image

What version of EDuke are you running? This should normally be a floor aligned sprite with a slope, but under older EDuke snapshots without sloped sprites support, these will just be rendered as view aligned sprites.

[NightFright]

That's the problem, I wasn't running it with EDuke32 at all. Apparently there are still quite a few problems with the renderer in Raze.
BTW: Wow, I failed the mission in the first level. Rare to have a Duke3D level where that is possible to happen...

[NightFright]

Ok, I finished the episode now, more or less. I made the big mistake of trying to play this with Raze. Not only did that result in all sloped sprites getting messed up. In the last map on the third level of the prison, opening the gate unlocked in the guard room would corrupt the entire map so hard it turns into a clusterfuck of walls, HOMs and other absurd occurrences. Unplayable at that point, basically.

Anyway, what I can say is that level design is superb and the way shadows are used is on a level you rarely see. Sadly, some keycards are hidden a bit too cleverly and sometimes you don't know which way to go. For example I had no idea where to get that red keycard or how to turn on that neon sign in the first level before consulting the Youtube video. A few more hints could have helped here or I was too dumb to see them. Still, great stuff.

[Aleks]

NightFright, on 04 May 2021 - 11:36 AM, said:

Ok, I finished the episode now, more or less. I made the big mistake of trying to play this with Raze. Not only did that result in all sloped sprites getting messed up. In the last map on the third level of the prison, opening the gate unlocked in the guard room would corrupt the entire map so hard it turns into a clusterfuck of walls, HOMs and other absurd occurrences. Unplayable at that point, basically.

Anyway, what I can say is that level design is superb and the way shadows are used is on a level you rarely see. Sadly, some keycards are hidden a bit too cleverly and sometimes you don't know which way to go. For example I had no idea where to get that red keycard or how to turn on that neon sign in the first level before consulting the Youtube video. A few more hints could have helped here or I was too dumb to see them. Still, great stuff.

Thanks for the comments! As I've told you, I do plan on releasing version 2.0 when the final map is ready and fixing/polishing some stuff, so I'll take more stuff that people report into consideration. Maybe some hints could be added to the "hints/walkthrough" thing in Addon Compilation for now, if you can think of any.

As for the Raze part, well I assume that's something they will be working on. Piggish Prison has some really heavy levels of SOS mixed with other effects, so I guess it could serve as a kind of "benchmark" for that. Sloped sprites are still fairly recent (about a year old only?) feature added in EDuke, but personally it's something I really dig.

[NightFright]

Yeah, Graf Zahl already indicated that the renderer might be updated at some point. There are currently other problems with conveyor belts for example. I am reporting what I find during my testing sessions.

I think in PP I ended up in a part of the prison building I wasn't even supposed to be in yet after opening that gate. Instead of getting to that dark area with Protector Drones, I went to the corridor with the briefing room and the yellow keycard. And it was a one-way trip since the staircase was blocked afterwards by map corruption. GG at that point, basically.

I will probably add hints for the most critical passages in the level to my hints textfile, but ofc it's always best if there is no need to consult a guide. Maybe an arrow at a crate which hides the keycard underneath it and some other written hints or whatsoever could help. Those datapads with vital keycodes for example are also a bit small and hard too see, which was also criticized in Mikko's review. When I am writing my guide, I will note down all the problematic passages and list them here so you can think of ways to improve playability. With a few tweaks, I am sure this can be raised from a good to an excellent episode.

[NightFright]

So, as promised, here my list of passages I consider critical and which might improve gameplay if changed:

Casino Carnage:

Spoiler

- The red keycard in the sewer should be easier to find. It's hard to figure out you have to dive underneath these crates.
- Some kind of hint is needed to know how to reach the neon sign switch.

Mutant Mayhem:

Spoiler

- To me it wasn't clear where to find that commander arm. Maybe there is a hint I didn't see?

Freezing Fear:

Spoiler

- Datapads are small and on the floor, so they can be potentially overlooked. Maybe you should add a floating fullbright arrow sprite on top of them, at least for the ones with codes.
- The red access panel on the rooftop outside near the spaceship is easy to overlook.
- Waiting for the helicopters to arrive is problematic since it's not clear what's going to happen, even with the info screen. Maybe more info messages every minute like "5 minutes until airstrike", 4 minutes until airstrike" etc would help here.

Piggish Prison:

Spoiler

- To me it wasn't clear I had to use the "lighter" on the gas on the floor since the message only mentioned the bars. Maybe that should be changed.
- Also had problems what to do with the door you have to kick in, but I guess the footprint should be a good hint after all.
- Getting the yellow keycard from the speeding boat is questionable since you have no indicator you get it from there. Also it's hard to enter it.
- That guard tower hopping sequence towards the end is tiresome, also because of the heavy resistance you encounter while doing so.
- The bike ride at the end is nice, but it's easy to fall off and you only have one shot at it.

[Aleks]

Thanks a lot for these suggestions, NightFright! Some (probably most ) of them are things that I've already been considering, so it's good to get another confirmation - other things seem reasonable and should be quite easy to implement (e.g. a viewscreen early on showing the location of the yellow keycard on the motorboat or a viewscreen hinting the goals in Casino Carnage more directly).

[NightFright]

Yeah, many issues could be resolved with additional cam screens. Maybe you can even install a camera in the boat of PP itself.

[quakis]

Better late than never at all, I'm uncertain when a review will come around for this where I can go into a more detail write up, so just wanted to contribute some quick thoughts on BiB after recently playing through it. Reviews will resume, I just need to avoid making the mistake of reviewing too many similarish maps (ROCH) within the same timeframe (just doesn't work for me, burn out is real). Now onto the episode.

Played on CGS. Some brief comments, nitpicks and observations. I'll need to replay the episode again one day to have a more thorough opinion:

Casino Carnage

Spoiler

• Now playing this, I definitely remember testing some ancient version of this but couldn't entirely put my finger on what I recognise most. The casino theme with chips, cards and slots was too obvious, I think it's the updates made outside that might be throwing me off.
  
• I'm not a huge fan of timed missions since I take my time to wander and take in the sights. Failed the first time, but already seen what's on offer. Didn't take long to restart and speedrun to the end.
  
• But I did like the focus on objectives, each one ticking off on the laptop. I'm just unsure if the overall execution was right, because it seemed too easy to miss certain events or hud-messages I was kinda scrambling about during the second half. Especially so with turning on the spotlight.
  
• Didn't like the sewer section much, it exists and there's a keycard but not much else to speak of. Seemed like a section that could have been cut in favour of something more suitable for the theme/goal.

Mutant Mayhem

Spoiler

• Fascinating level with moody introduction. Didn't get to experience the effects of the cameras because I blew them up early on, so something I need to keep in mind for the eventual replay. Otherwise I liked the feel and construction of the whole base, externally and internally. Usage of spritework to form roofs and floors added to that three-dimensional aspect. Then you have the early 2000s mission based objective stuff going on, but each lab had a different sense of progression to keep things varied.
  
• While a minor issue, the fact Duke can jump higher than the fence but a blocking wall prevents access always bothers me. If anything I've been embracing the fact Duke jumps so high rather than fighting against it, forcing too much realism in this game can be a potential detriment to the feeling of playing it. Taller fences would have worked perfectly fine in this instance. Invisible walls, or anything bordering that in an unnatural way, somehow takes me out of the experience faster than any misaligned textures ever could.

Freezing Fear

Spoiler

• This one really feels like a product of its time, especially with the horror vibes and post DOOM3 influences. Walking through the base with those scripted sound sequences, I remember obsessively tinkering around with that stuff around the time. Somehow reminds me of RED4 or the spooky-era ck3D stuff. Rather than an adventure, all I kept thinking while playing was how much of a trip down memory lane many components reminded me of.
  
• Ending segment was a nice change to the primary slow pace the level had going, from the command room onwards. Time between waves was perhaps too forgiving, plenty to restock but a lot of waiting for something where clearer signage of progression would help a ton; NightFright has the right idea on what could work.
  
• Again I remember testing something of yours here, I distinctly recognised those devices with the DOOM3 PDA OS. One thing to note, looks like James was promoted to director in 2007 but already had the passcodes sent in 2004. I'm starting to suspect foul play was taking place around here. Did the previous directly really die an embarrassing death or was it a collaborated effort at taking over? Also, I'm used to my name and alias being mispronounced, but mispelled! That's a new one, haha. Reading these messages and old arse references felt super nostalgic.
  
• Elevators. Are. Slow!

Piggish Prison

Spoiler

• It's a tough, miserable experience, but I didn't hate my time here. Duke's been taken captive and has to fight tooth and nail, grasping at any opportunity to succeed. The relentlessness of battle, overwhelming odds and having to scavenge up anything useful worked to it's favour. Those mortar pigcops at elevated positions worked amazingly well to keep the pressure up. I didn't mind so much the close quarter fights either, albeit they can be a pain in the arse at times due to furnishings and other details causing some problematic navigation. Otherwise those encounters just emphasis that feeling of being stuck at the heart of a fortified enemy base. From a themematic, atmospheric and technicle perspective, this is my favourite of the four levels.
  
• But not all combat worked so well, primarily toward the end and having to deal with each of the towers while at low health, against Battlelords no less. Died here the most, only to get slapped in the face another two times; after unlocking the next two towers; and releasing two Overlords - which in the end I lured outside the broken fence to deal with later.
  
• I did like the fourth floor section though, scrambling to pull the lever and find an opportunity to slip away. Tense, overwhelming and creepy.
  
• Level reminds me in parts of Pixten's MPCC2 or Ale's EDFSB and similar works.
  
• Is it possible to reaccess the third floor if you forget to unlock it's gate and jump out the window? I couldn't find any other way back in, might have missed or forgot another route, but had to noclip back in to progress.
  
• Right. You win. Your bar is better than mine. Sure it's differently themed, but what grabs my attention is how interactable the place is; the bar door, the fridge opens and you can even drink out of the beer taps! Now I'm regretting just how static FLAMWRCK really is, haha. Good stuff, I love it.

Other Thoughts

Spoiler

• Pure nostalgia all the way through the first three levels, they're like a museum of bygone eras while also showcasing your own progression as a mapper over the years with Piggish Prison refining everything built up until this point. Tons of experimental ideas not everyone is going to be agreeable with and may not be the most casual friendly episode, but I think that's fine. It's fills a niche that we haven't seen in a while and I'm glad you kept most of the early 2000's era stuff intact without worrying about it being redundant in [current year].
  
• I'm a sucker for great lighting, especially for atmosphere. I've been going a little overboard myself even since playing Ion Fury, which always had my jaw on the floor with how intricate it looked using various tricks; the same techniques have been applied to many sections here, making good use of those custom triangular sprites to help emulate how shadows would look in these environments without abusing too many walls. Many things are reacting to the light, right down to the smaller stuff like switches or between shelving.
  
• There's plans to replay this episode again once I've commited to writing a review, where I can delve a little more thoroughly on my thoughts and critiqe, so I'll keep you posted when that comes around.

[Aleks]

Thanks for your comments, Quakis! I gotta admit it's particularly cool to me seeing the comments from the old AMC folks that would get all the little Easter eggs.

quakis, on 02 June 2022 - 06:40 AM, said:

While a minor issue, the fact Duke can jump higher than the fence but a blocking wall prevents access always bothers me. If anything I've been embracing the fact Duke jumps so high rather than fighting against it, forcing too much realism in this game can be a potential detriment to the feeling of playing it. Taller fences would have worked perfectly fine in this instance. Invisible walls, or anything bordering that in an unnatural way, somehow takes me out of the experience faster than any misaligned textures ever could.

That's a good point and frankly something I haven't been considering at all, but now that you mentioned it, whenever I get to fixing the stuff for BiB 2.0 release, I'll change the fences a bit to be taller and perhaps have a sloped fence sprite on top to look fancier. In general, I personally don't mind invisible walls that much as long as they're somehow hinted (e.g. a police line) just to close off the player area.

Quote

This one really feels like a product of its time, especially with the horror vibes and post DOOM3 influences. Walking through the base with those scripted sound sequences, I remember obsessively tinkering around with that stuff around the time. Somehow reminds me of RED4 or the spooky-era ck3D stuff. Rather than an adventure, all I kept thinking while playing was how much of a trip down memory lane many components reminded me of.

Hahaha, actually it's the same for me. To be honest, this map didn't really undergo much changes since 2004-2005 or so besides some polishing, but not just for that feeling, but because I was always quite satisfied with how it turned out.

Quote

Again I remember testing something of yours here, I distinctly recognised those devices with the DOOM3 PDA OS. One thing to note, looks like James was promoted to director in 2007 but already had the passcodes sent in 2004. I'm starting to suspect foul play was taking place around here. Did the previous directly really die an embarrassing death or was it a collaborated effort at taking over? Also, I'm used to my name and alias being mispronounced, but mispelled! That's a new one, haha. Reading these messages and old arse references felt super nostalgic.

Wow, good eye on spotting the 2004/2007 inconsistence, no idea why it was left like that though, probably was just a random mistake. As for your name, just noticed it's spelled wrong there - or maybe it's some other guy, seeing how you are still alive and kicking in 2022? At least I got it right in the readme file. Also just now I realised that none of your e-mails in the PDA mention anything about abandoning your projects, can't believe a 15 year old me wouldn't be tempted to go this obvious route back then.

Quote

Elevators. Are. Slow!

Another good point for me to keep in mind for the fixes! Funny how I always find them annoyingly slow (especially the large cargo elevator going down to the 1st Battlelord), yet never thought about changing their speed.

Quote

It's a tough, miserable experience, but I didn't hate my time here. Duke's been taken captive and has to fight tooth and nail, grasping at any opportunity to succeed. The relentlessness of battle, overwhelming odds and having to scavenge up anything useful worked to it's favour. Those mortar pigcops at elevated positions worked amazingly well to keep the pressure up. I didn't mind so much the close quarter fights either, albeit they can be a pain in the arse at times due to furnishings and other details causing some problematic navigation. Otherwise those encounters just emphasis that feeling of being stuck at the heart of a fortified enemy base. From a themematic, atmospheric and technicle perspective, this is my favourite of the four levels.

Thanks a lot for that comment! That's exactly the kind of feeling I was going for there - you're escaping what is basically a private Alcatraz built just for keeping Duke prisoner, in a burning desert sun, so don't expect this to be a walk in the park as usual!

Quote

But not all combat worked so well, primarily toward the end and having to deal with each of the towers while at low health, against Battlelords no less. Died here the most, only to get slapped in the face another two times; after unlocking the next two towers; and releasing two Overlords - which in the end I lured outside the broken fence to deal with later.

Yeah some of these encounters might really feel like pushing it a bit, also the commanders on the tops of the towers are definitely going since they are somehow immune against hitscan weapons.

Quote

Is it possible to reaccess the third floor if you forget to unlock it's gate and jump out the window? I couldn't find any other way back in, might have missed or forgot another route, but had to noclip back in to progress.

Just checked to make sure, but yeah - you can re-open the 4th floor with protector drones once again from the security room on the 2nd floor, then crawl once again through the vents and get to the 3rd floor. Also, a funny thing I'm not sure anyone found - you can also lock the staircase on the 1st floor from that security room, which would normally prevent you from progressing any further after escaping through the window. To prevent that, I added a small logic gate that would only trigger once you're trapped in the room with yellow key and window - if the 1st floor gate to the staircase is locked at this point, it will be opened by an additional commander spawning near the security room in a particularly annoying spot.

Quote

Right. You win. Your bar is better than mine. Sure it's differently themed, but what grabs my attention is how interactable the place is; the bar door, the fridge opens and you can even drink out of the beer taps! Now I'm regretting just how static FLAMWRCK really is, haha. Good stuff, I love it.

Well, you set the bar for me really high I probably said it somewhere before, but IIRC I did check the bar in Flaming Shipwreck before designing mine, but not really for inspiration, but quite on the contrary, to make sure mine wouldn't resemble it too much (even though I loved your design).

Quote

Pure nostalgia all the way through the first three levels, they're like a museum of bygone eras while also showcasing your own progression as a mapper over the years with Piggish Prison refining everything built up until this point. Tons of experimental ideas not everyone is going to be agreeable with and may not be the most casual friendly episode, but I think that's fine. It's fills a niche that we haven't seen in a while and I'm glad you kept most of the early 2000's era stuff intact without worrying about it being redundant in [current year].

Thanks, I really appreciate this! Yeah I don't think we should be forgetting about this 2000s era in mapping really, I'd still say some of the best maps were made back then, so wouldn't mind a little shift in direction of at least some maps to once again be these 10-15 minutes "museum" maps with stupidly good details.

Quote

There's plans to replay this episode again once I've commited to writing a review, where I can delve a little more thoroughly on my thoughts and critiqe, so I'll keep you posted when that comes around.

And thanks, I particularly like your reviews because of the neat language you usually use and the dedication to really finding the intent of most reviewed stuff. But I'd say take your time here and perhaps it would be better to wait for the "BiB 2.0" which I mentioned above. I'm not actively working on it, but it will be released one day, both fixing some stuff and adding the final map I'm developing in my head for a good 15+ years.

[quakis]

Aleks, on 02 June 2022 - 09:36 AM, said:

I personally don't mind invisible walls that much as long as they're somehow hinted (e.g. a police line) just to close off the player area.

They are difficult to manage at times, especially since Duke3D is less abstract than say, Doom or Quake where mappers have more options to warden off areas. The borders in Piggish Prison are clear and do their job perfectly and I usually don't ask for much when it comes to the outskirts of a level, my issue stems primarily in the actual playing field. If you do make an update, perhaps also consider removing the invisible wall along the cliff edges in Freezing Fear and have it a fatal fall just to feel more natural.

Aleks, on 02 June 2022 - 09:36 AM, said:

Also just now I realised that none of your e-mails in the PDA mention anything about abandoning your projects, can't believe a 15 year old me wouldn't be tempted to go this obvious route back then.

Honestly, I was even prepared for the inevitable joke and surprised you didn't jump on the easy prize. Almost expected to be some engineer or something with a dozen unfinished crafts when the base needed them the most.

Aleks, on 02 June 2022 - 09:36 AM, said:

so wouldn't mind a little shift in direction of at least some maps to once again be these 10-15 minutes "museum" maps with stupidly good details.

I wouldn't mind the occasional smaller scope project from folks every now and then between these opus-magnums, but I'm not exactly one to talk either, haha.

Aleks, on 02 June 2022 - 09:36 AM, said:

But I'd say take your time here and perhaps it would be better to wait for the "BiB 2.0" which I mentioned above.

I think that would be better and I look forward to the update. There's more than enough projects to review until then, so long as I impose a variety of stuff in my queue or risk further burn out, because there's been so many releases to catch up on!

[NightFright]

Well, you have more than enough good suggestions to implement by now, and whenever it's ready, the final version is going to be a must-play for anyone.

But yeah, come to think of it, you should drop that timer on the first mission. It feels needless and kinda punishing to put the player under pressure, especially at the very beginning of the episode. Even if the time limit seems generous enough, you can still fail easily if you don't know what you have to do. In general, the less you have to guess what you have to do or where to go next, the better it is. I am just not a fan of puzzle-heavy maps which impede your progress too much. Gameflow is king.