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Hello!
I was inspired to create this forum topic after coming across this page on the Duke Nukem Wiki:
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Duke Nukem 3D: 1995 Prototypes Discussion "Discussing the various unreleased DN3D prototypes from 1995!"
#2 Posted 03 November 2020 - 12:01 PM
Quote
Hello!
I was inspired to create this forum topic after coming across this page on the Duke Nukem Wiki:
I was inspired to create this forum topic after coming across this page on the Duke Nukem Wiki:
Im not seeing the Duke Nukem Wiki page mate. Did you linked it correctly?
#3 Posted 03 November 2020 - 12:56 PM
Ignore that first post, Duke4.net doesn't really allow topic editing, (in the first post I accidently hit my mousepad while typing, and since my mouse was hovering over the Add Reply button on screen, I sent the reply without really finishing it)
Sorry about that! anyway, here's the finished version of the first post:
Hello!
I was inspired to create this forum topic after coming across this page on the Duke Nukem Wiki: https://dukenukem.fa...e_Nukem_3D_1995
After I read through the page, I realized that were was so much more to these prototypes than I thought, not only early concepts of some of the maps that differ vastly from the final game, as well as early versions of the Enforcer and PigCop (who made their apparent first appearance in the May 1995 build)
And while I am aware of a previously existing forum titled "Duke3D & SW - Early/Alpha/Beta/Gold Material", THIS forum discussion is primarily for Duke Nukem 3D prototypes dating back to 1995, as well as Duke Nukem IIID (The earliest build of Duke Nukem 3D, nicknamed "LamerDuke"), LameDuke, and the v0.99 Beta.
These prototypes have always fascinated me, partly due to the fact that, as of this writing, they haven't been released, Hendricks and TerminX are in charge of maintaining these builds, but can not release them until Gearbox gives them permission to do so, the whole "please release the prototypes" discussion is already on the previously mentioned forum topic, (with people getting rather angry at Hendricks and TerminX at their reluctance to release these prototypes, which they legally can't do until further notice,)
Anyway, post your findings, your speculations, perhaps maybe even some mods/fanart based off of these prototypes, (after all, fans have already done so for LameDuke and v0.99)
Hope you learn and have fun discussing the development of one of the best video games from the 1990s!
Sorry about that! anyway, here's the finished version of the first post:
Hello!
I was inspired to create this forum topic after coming across this page on the Duke Nukem Wiki: https://dukenukem.fa...e_Nukem_3D_1995
After I read through the page, I realized that were was so much more to these prototypes than I thought, not only early concepts of some of the maps that differ vastly from the final game, as well as early versions of the Enforcer and PigCop (who made their apparent first appearance in the May 1995 build)
And while I am aware of a previously existing forum titled "Duke3D & SW - Early/Alpha/Beta/Gold Material", THIS forum discussion is primarily for Duke Nukem 3D prototypes dating back to 1995, as well as Duke Nukem IIID (The earliest build of Duke Nukem 3D, nicknamed "LamerDuke"), LameDuke, and the v0.99 Beta.
These prototypes have always fascinated me, partly due to the fact that, as of this writing, they haven't been released, Hendricks and TerminX are in charge of maintaining these builds, but can not release them until Gearbox gives them permission to do so, the whole "please release the prototypes" discussion is already on the previously mentioned forum topic, (with people getting rather angry at Hendricks and TerminX at their reluctance to release these prototypes, which they legally can't do until further notice,)
Anyway, post your findings, your speculations, perhaps maybe even some mods/fanart based off of these prototypes, (after all, fans have already done so for LameDuke and v0.99)
Hope you learn and have fun discussing the development of one of the best video games from the 1990s!
#4 Posted 03 November 2020 - 01:09 PM
jkas789, on 03 November 2020 - 12:01 PM, said:
Im not seeing the Duke Nukem Wiki page mate. Did you linked it correctly?
Sorry abbout that, made a mistake in the first post, I had to create a second reply to fix it.
#5 Posted 03 November 2020 - 03:10 PM
I'm wondering what levels were done in the november beta other than the demo ones. Reportedly Stadium is the oldest map as it dates back before LameDuke, then we had Derelict in LameDuke, Dark Side and Tiberius Station in the may beta, Sweeney had some screenshots as well. Warp Factor might have an interesting history, it's original layout wasn't built by Levelord, but later the map went through heavy revisions. According to some even Freeway was there but I saw no evidence for that.
Btw. when did Levelord join the team? Did he actually start Sweeney/Sewer or The Abyss? These levels didn't totally look like his work and are very old maps.
Btw. when did Levelord join the team? Did he actually start Sweeney/Sewer or The Abyss? These levels didn't totally look like his work and are very old maps.
This post has been edited by The Watchtower: 03 November 2020 - 03:10 PM
#6 Posted 05 November 2020 - 02:05 PM
The Watchtower, on 03 November 2020 - 03:10 PM, said:
I'm wondering what levels were done in the november beta other than the demo ones. Reportedly Stadium is the oldest map as it dates back before LameDuke, then we had Derelict in LameDuke, Dark Side and Tiberius Station in the may beta, Sweeney had some screenshots as well. Warp Factor might have an interesting history, it's original layout wasn't built by Levelord, but later the map went through heavy revisions. According to some even Freeway was there but I saw no evidence for that.
Btw. when did Levelord join the team? Did he actually start Sweeney/Sewer or The Abyss? These levels didn't totally look like his work and are very old maps.
Btw. when did Levelord join the team? Did he actually start Sweeney/Sewer or The Abyss? These levels didn't totally look like his work and are very old maps.
In November, Hollywood Holocaust and Red Light District/Mean Streets were there, albeit with slightly different layouts. Pretty sure Death Row was also there at that point.
As for The Abyss and the other maps, I'm 99% certain that Levelord started them, but if he didn't, y'know, whatever. You could ask him about them if you want.
This post has been edited by Kunt Mackers: 05 November 2020 - 02:07 PM
#7 Posted 06 November 2020 - 07:59 AM
Kunt Mackers, on 05 November 2020 - 02:05 PM, said:
In November, Hollywood Holocaust and Red Light District/Mean Streets were there, albeit with slightly different layouts. Pretty sure Death Row was also there at that point.
As for The Abyss and the other maps, I'm 99% certain that Levelord started them, but if he didn't, y'know, whatever. You could ask him about them if you want.
As for The Abyss and the other maps, I'm 99% certain that Levelord started them, but if he didn't, y'know, whatever. You could ask him about them if you want.
https://dukenukem.fa..._1995_prototype
From the screenshots here it's quite clear the first five levels of LA Meltdown were close to completion and The Abyss was also started. It has some space screenshots, the one with the spacesuit is Warp Factor, which according to this site was also close to completion, however I can't id some pictures here.
1: RLD probably but not sure
2. RLD
3. DR
4. ??? (space level)
5. WF (but with different texturing)
6. ??? (another space)
7. ??? (and another, probably WF because of the elevator)
8. ??? (not even sure if it's a space map or a city map)
9. HH
10. HH
11. ??? (probably an earlier iteration RLD's abandoned garage)
12. Abyss
13. LF
14. LF
15. LF
16. TD
17. TD
18. TD
19. HH
20. LF
21. TD
22. RLD
23. RLD
24. ??? (TD maybe)
25. TD
26. ??? (DR maybe)
27. DR
#8 Posted 06 November 2020 - 08:35 AM
11 is HH, the street used to extend beyond the Guilty sign and this room was at the end of it. It might have been the starting area at one time. Whilst I cannot confirm it, I suspect the little door on the right led to an office with a pistol/ammo on a desk. Liztroop in there too, I think.
I really have nothing to add to what you already said, but because I'm bored;
...
4. Could be anything from WF to OT. OT used to be BLORD's level at the end of episode 1 and the area you start in now likely didn't exist until you reach the sloped windows and red room with his face on the door. The screenshot looks too dark to be OT, but it could be something to do with what is now the green alien room (oddly shown in E2's ending screen with the sky suggesting it was facing the wrong way), as I don't think that was there before. Probably not.
5. WF likely, but I'm sure someone once posted an overhead of another map this could have fit in. No longer seem to have the picture though. Probably was just an earlier WF anyway.
6. Always made me think of the round room in WF where you can get to the Star Trek secret from, but long suspected it isn't due to the geometry on the top right.
7. ??? but worth noting the door looking thing is actually an elevator, not a door, by the looks of things. Could well be another WF shot, with the player in the center of the room that leads to the two elevators left and right and the reactor viewing platform from the center.
8. I think there's another shot of this map from further back into the room. Always felt like it belonged to Tiberius Station, maybe replaced by the two elevators leading up to the room where you open the timed door to the red radioactive room. Shame we can't see a sky as those sure help to narrow things down.
11. HH - see https://static.wikia...=20200703225832 towards bottom left corner, then up and right. Garage doors lead out into an alley with chainlink fence. The women's restroom, opposite the men's room where there's now that little secret the cash register opens, seems to have once had a destructible wall leading back to this area, behind the wooden door in the top right of the picture - unless it was the men's room back then and the one we still have was originally the ladies', going purely by the sofa.
24. Would also say TD on the other side of the laser door. Watch us both be completely wrong and it belong somewhere you'd never guess like Bank Roll (I doubt it, just the first random pick of a map name)
26. Always thought this was DR, maybe another entrance to the cog room or the original way into the moving bed room. Cannot be sure.
27. Definitely DR, but the slopes and pillar in the cog room are interesting, likely only changed for performance I guess.
Staring at the E1L1 concept art makes me wonder - if the 'P' markings are liztroops (Preds/predators? This persists in VOC names!), then some are green and some are red, but loads of them are black... is it perhaps possible, given the labels, that the black ones were blue and had no jetpack, then the green ones had jetpacks and the red ones could teleport? Or else something similar that was dropped early? That or maybe it just denotes if they come from RESPAWNs rather than being placed directly.
I really have nothing to add to what you already said, but because I'm bored;
...
4. Could be anything from WF to OT. OT used to be BLORD's level at the end of episode 1 and the area you start in now likely didn't exist until you reach the sloped windows and red room with his face on the door. The screenshot looks too dark to be OT, but it could be something to do with what is now the green alien room (oddly shown in E2's ending screen with the sky suggesting it was facing the wrong way), as I don't think that was there before. Probably not.
5. WF likely, but I'm sure someone once posted an overhead of another map this could have fit in. No longer seem to have the picture though. Probably was just an earlier WF anyway.
6. Always made me think of the round room in WF where you can get to the Star Trek secret from, but long suspected it isn't due to the geometry on the top right.
7. ??? but worth noting the door looking thing is actually an elevator, not a door, by the looks of things. Could well be another WF shot, with the player in the center of the room that leads to the two elevators left and right and the reactor viewing platform from the center.
8. I think there's another shot of this map from further back into the room. Always felt like it belonged to Tiberius Station, maybe replaced by the two elevators leading up to the room where you open the timed door to the red radioactive room. Shame we can't see a sky as those sure help to narrow things down.
11. HH - see https://static.wikia...=20200703225832 towards bottom left corner, then up and right. Garage doors lead out into an alley with chainlink fence. The women's restroom, opposite the men's room where there's now that little secret the cash register opens, seems to have once had a destructible wall leading back to this area, behind the wooden door in the top right of the picture - unless it was the men's room back then and the one we still have was originally the ladies', going purely by the sofa.
24. Would also say TD on the other side of the laser door. Watch us both be completely wrong and it belong somewhere you'd never guess like Bank Roll (I doubt it, just the first random pick of a map name)
26. Always thought this was DR, maybe another entrance to the cog room or the original way into the moving bed room. Cannot be sure.
27. Definitely DR, but the slopes and pillar in the cog room are interesting, likely only changed for performance I guess.
Staring at the E1L1 concept art makes me wonder - if the 'P' markings are liztroops (Preds/predators? This persists in VOC names!), then some are green and some are red, but loads of them are black... is it perhaps possible, given the labels, that the black ones were blue and had no jetpack, then the green ones had jetpacks and the red ones could teleport? Or else something similar that was dropped early? That or maybe it just denotes if they come from RESPAWNs rather than being placed directly.
This post has been edited by High Treason: 06 November 2020 - 09:06 AM
#9 Posted 06 November 2020 - 02:03 PM
High Treason, on 06 November 2020 - 08:35 AM, said:
Wow I don't remember seeing that piece of concept art before (I had seen concept art but nothing level design-related), that's really fascinating. Not just due to how different (and, in a way, more advanced) the layout was but also just because of the medium, it's surprising to me that the team had to communicate using such strict assets, I would have expected simple plans for the basic concepts per level and then frequent feedback and corrections on the execution but nothing as detailed, and more room for initiative on the level designers' end. Maybe they only did it for E1L1 in particular as it was meant to be a particularly important level and thus had to really be thought out and codified? Also, I assume these are the only blueprints from the betas that are floating around (I couldn't find any more by myself)?
This post has been edited by ck3D: 06 November 2020 - 02:04 PM
#10 Posted 06 November 2020 - 03:46 PM
High Treason, on 06 November 2020 - 08:35 AM, said:
11 is HH, the street used to extend beyond the Guilty sign and this room was at the end of it. It might have been the starting area at one time. Whilst I cannot confirm it, I suspect the little door on the right led to an office with a pistol/ammo on a desk. Liztroop in there too, I think.
I really have nothing to add to what you already said, but because I'm bored;
...
4. Could be anything from WF to OT. OT used to be BLORD's level at the end of episode 1 and the area you start in now likely didn't exist until you reach the sloped windows and red room with his face on the door. The screenshot looks too dark to be OT, but it could be something to do with what is now the green alien room (oddly shown in E2's ending screen with the sky suggesting it was facing the wrong way), as I don't think that was there before. Probably not.
5. WF likely, but I'm sure someone once posted an overhead of another map this could have fit in. No longer seem to have the picture though. Probably was just an earlier WF anyway.
6. Always made me think of the round room in WF where you can get to the Star Trek secret from, but long suspected it isn't due to the geometry on the top right.
7. ??? but worth noting the door looking thing is actually an elevator, not a door, by the looks of things. Could well be another WF shot, with the player in the center of the room that leads to the two elevators left and right and the reactor viewing platform from the center.
8. I think there's another shot of this map from further back into the room. Always felt like it belonged to Tiberius Station, maybe replaced by the two elevators leading up to the room where you open the timed door to the red radioactive room. Shame we can't see a sky as those sure help to narrow things down.
11. HH - see https://static.wikia...=20200703225832 towards bottom left corner, then up and right. Garage doors lead out into an alley with chainlink fence. The women's restroom, opposite the men's room where there's now that little secret the cash register opens, seems to have once had a destructible wall leading back to this area, behind the wooden door in the top right of the picture - unless it was the men's room back then and the one we still have was originally the ladies', going purely by the sofa.
24. Would also say TD on the other side of the laser door. Watch us both be completely wrong and it belong somewhere you'd never guess like Bank Roll (I doubt it, just the first random pick of a map name)
26. Always thought this was DR, maybe another entrance to the cog room or the original way into the moving bed room. Cannot be sure.
27. Definitely DR, but the slopes and pillar in the cog room are interesting, likely only changed for performance I guess.
Staring at the E1L1 concept art makes me wonder - if the 'P' markings are liztroops (Preds/predators? This persists in VOC names!), then some are green and some are red, but loads of them are black... is it perhaps possible, given the labels, that the black ones were blue and had no jetpack, then the green ones had jetpacks and the red ones could teleport? Or else something similar that was dropped early? That or maybe it just denotes if they come from RESPAWNs rather than being placed directly.
I really have nothing to add to what you already said, but because I'm bored;
...
4. Could be anything from WF to OT. OT used to be BLORD's level at the end of episode 1 and the area you start in now likely didn't exist until you reach the sloped windows and red room with his face on the door. The screenshot looks too dark to be OT, but it could be something to do with what is now the green alien room (oddly shown in E2's ending screen with the sky suggesting it was facing the wrong way), as I don't think that was there before. Probably not.
5. WF likely, but I'm sure someone once posted an overhead of another map this could have fit in. No longer seem to have the picture though. Probably was just an earlier WF anyway.
6. Always made me think of the round room in WF where you can get to the Star Trek secret from, but long suspected it isn't due to the geometry on the top right.
7. ??? but worth noting the door looking thing is actually an elevator, not a door, by the looks of things. Could well be another WF shot, with the player in the center of the room that leads to the two elevators left and right and the reactor viewing platform from the center.
8. I think there's another shot of this map from further back into the room. Always felt like it belonged to Tiberius Station, maybe replaced by the two elevators leading up to the room where you open the timed door to the red radioactive room. Shame we can't see a sky as those sure help to narrow things down.
11. HH - see https://static.wikia...=20200703225832 towards bottom left corner, then up and right. Garage doors lead out into an alley with chainlink fence. The women's restroom, opposite the men's room where there's now that little secret the cash register opens, seems to have once had a destructible wall leading back to this area, behind the wooden door in the top right of the picture - unless it was the men's room back then and the one we still have was originally the ladies', going purely by the sofa.
24. Would also say TD on the other side of the laser door. Watch us both be completely wrong and it belong somewhere you'd never guess like Bank Roll (I doubt it, just the first random pick of a map name)
26. Always thought this was DR, maybe another entrance to the cog room or the original way into the moving bed room. Cannot be sure.
27. Definitely DR, but the slopes and pillar in the cog room are interesting, likely only changed for performance I guess.
Staring at the E1L1 concept art makes me wonder - if the 'P' markings are liztroops (Preds/predators? This persists in VOC names!), then some are green and some are red, but loads of them are black... is it perhaps possible, given the labels, that the black ones were blue and had no jetpack, then the green ones had jetpacks and the red ones could teleport? Or else something similar that was dropped early? That or maybe it just denotes if they come from RESPAWNs rather than being placed directly.
Great input HT! I knew about the alley start in HH and the second toilet too, but didn't know about this area. I have to say I'm glad they changed it to the rooftop one. It would have been a rather lukewarm start to the game, which is not acceptable as most players rate it by its first impressions. The RLD garage start was much more interesting and it's kinda sad it was removed. I remember I manually restored it along with the other RLD beta details left in 0.99, and it played well. In HH's case this area would have worked only if you still start at the rooftop with your plane shot, but instead of falling in the middle of the street, you just fall into the alley area in the other side... this weird area could be only openable if you shoot the crack from the second toilet. Even then this is not a terribly great loss, the secondary toilet is more missing.
#11 Posted 07 November 2020 - 01:09 PM
Not pertaining to the oldest builds ever in particular I only just now realized there's been Duke Talk clips used throughout development that were scrapped eventually, for instance (maybe it's actually the only one, what do I know) in this beta version of E1L1, around 3:00 in the video, when Duke triggers the switch in the projection room he lets out an 'already seen this one' as the curtains open, which I think is hilarious and in tone with the style of the game, I have no idea why it was cut.
Sorry if slightly OT, couldn't think of a better place to post this and it's actually this thread that recently inspired me to look up more about the betas.
Sorry if slightly OT, couldn't think of a better place to post this and it's actually this thread that recently inspired me to look up more about the betas.
This post has been edited by ck3D: 07 November 2020 - 01:13 PM
#12 Posted 10 November 2020 - 03:46 PM
I wonder why the changed Liztrooper in the final version. He looked so much better in the beta!
#13 Posted 10 November 2020 - 05:03 PM
The Watchtower, on 03 November 2020 - 03:10 PM, said:
I'm wondering what levels were done in the november beta other than the demo ones. Reportedly Stadium is the oldest map as it dates back before LameDuke, then we had Derelict in LameDuke, Dark Side and Tiberius Station in the may beta, Sweeney had some screenshots as well. Warp Factor might have an interesting history, it's original layout wasn't built by Levelord, but later the map went through heavy revisions. According to some even Freeway was there but I saw no evidence for that.
It has the final version enemies on it, so it was probably rejected in the last minute. Maybe it's still present in the november beta, or maybe it's just a mockup, who knows.
High Treason, on 06 November 2020 - 08:35 AM, said:
Staring at the E1L1 concept art makes me wonder - if the 'P' markings are liztroops (Preds/predators? This persists in VOC names!), then some are green and some are red, but loads of them are black... is it perhaps possible, given the labels, that the black ones were blue and had no jetpack, then the green ones had jetpacks and the red ones could teleport? Or else something similar that was dropped early? That or maybe it just denotes if they come from RESPAWNs rather than being placed directly.
ck3D, on 07 November 2020 - 01:09 PM, said:
Not pertaining to the oldest builds ever in particular I only just now realized there's been Duke Talk clips used throughout development that were scrapped eventually, for instance (maybe it's actually the only one, what do I know) in this beta version of E1L1, around 3:00 in the video, when Duke triggers the switch in the projection room he lets out an 'already seen this one' as the curtains open, which I think is hilarious and in tone with the style of the game, I have no idea why it was cut.
Sanek, on 10 November 2020 - 03:46 PM, said:
I wonder why the changed Liztrooper in the final version. He looked so much better in the beta!
Hendricks266, on 23 October 2020 - 07:29 AM, said:
discussion immediately degenerated into "beta is betta" levels of amateur thinking.
It's a joke because I think the same, the beta version of the liztroop was cooler, especially because of those helmets with crests behind. I always though the final liztroop was very generic, even before knowing about betas.
#14 Posted 10 November 2020 - 05:10 PM
Perro Seco, on 10 November 2020 - 05:03 PM, said:
It's a joke because I think the same, the beta version of the liztroop was cooler, especially because of those helmets with crests behind. I always though the final liztroop was very generic, even before knowing about betas.
Oh, it's not what I wanted to say! I mean the liztroop that appears in the pre-release beta, like the one that's shown in the video ck3D posted. This Liztrooper looks almost identical to the final one but much sharper, and I dunno why the changed it because he looked better.
This post has been edited by Sanek: 10 November 2020 - 05:10 PM
- Fraka kaka kaka kaka-kow!
-
#15 Posted 11 November 2020 - 10:18 AM
Perro Seco, on 10 November 2020 - 05:03 PM, said:
It has the final version enemies on it, so it was probably rejected in the last minute. Maybe it's still present in the november beta, or maybe it's just a mockup, who knows.
That's the flamethrower Enforcer
#16 Posted 11 November 2020 - 11:56 PM
The shot is N6 from LameDuke. It has an interesting but unfinished layout.
#17 Posted 21 November 2020 - 08:57 AM
I was just thinking about the shareware versions of Duke3D, and now I realized they only have tiles000-tiles012.art inside the grp. When you look at the tile selection table, it's crystal clear that tiles013.art, starting actually from picnum 3330 (the Faces of Death hologram girl) is a late amendment to the base set of tiles, long after every enemies, letters, ads, leftovers. This weird set of tiles are the special art for Faces of Death (including stuff like the scrapped hologram of Duke head) and the various Shrapnel City textures and banners, including everything from Stadium. Not all of them actually, there are some in the base set, but it's quite remarkable. Shrapnel City levels use these excessively. The most recognisable ones are 3385-3387, the brown the grey castle marble textures, which are ususally used for medieval levels in user maps, but in the base game, they were city textures, and helped giving the episode its distinct style never really replicated since. The building wall texture with window at 3394-3396 are also distinct episode 3 textures. The rest in tiles013.art are mostly one off textures like the fire truck, the Born to be Wild movie etc.
What got me thinking is that some of the levels of episode 3 have their origins when the 0.99 beta was released, most notably Bank Roll, Flood Zone/Santa Monica Pier, LA Rumble, Rabid Transit, Hotel Hell and even Freeway according to the Duke Wiki. However these levels must have looked very differently back even in january 1996, because these tiles didn't exist then. I checked the art of Sweeney and Sewer, and they didn't have a single piece from tiles013, probably this might be the reason why everyone feel they belong to LA Meltdown aesthetically much more than to Shrapnel City.
My point is, the original set of Shrapnel City, including Bank Roll, Flood Zone, LA Rumble, Rabid Transit and Hotel Hell must have looked different compared to the final version due to the lack of tiles013.art. I'm just wondering how the tiles000-012 files looked like back then. Those are having even some atomic stuff, like the ship from Babe Land (the pirate flag is actually found in tiles013.art) or the tank and expander sprites. Maybe I will check this later. Too bad eduke32 don't allow to replace any content of the sharewares/betas, so it's a bit more tricky to check and compare.
What got me thinking is that some of the levels of episode 3 have their origins when the 0.99 beta was released, most notably Bank Roll, Flood Zone/Santa Monica Pier, LA Rumble, Rabid Transit, Hotel Hell and even Freeway according to the Duke Wiki. However these levels must have looked very differently back even in january 1996, because these tiles didn't exist then. I checked the art of Sweeney and Sewer, and they didn't have a single piece from tiles013, probably this might be the reason why everyone feel they belong to LA Meltdown aesthetically much more than to Shrapnel City.
My point is, the original set of Shrapnel City, including Bank Roll, Flood Zone, LA Rumble, Rabid Transit and Hotel Hell must have looked different compared to the final version due to the lack of tiles013.art. I'm just wondering how the tiles000-012 files looked like back then. Those are having even some atomic stuff, like the ship from Babe Land (the pirate flag is actually found in tiles013.art) or the tank and expander sprites. Maybe I will check this later. Too bad eduke32 don't allow to replace any content of the sharewares/betas, so it's a bit more tricky to check and compare.
- Fraka kaka kaka kaka-kow!
-
#18 Posted 21 November 2020 - 05:20 PM
The Watchtower, on 21 November 2020 - 08:57 AM, said:
I was just thinking about the shareware versions of Duke3D, and now I realized they only have tiles000-tiles012.art inside the grp. When you look at the tile selection table, it's crystal clear that tiles013.art, starting actually from picnum 3330 (the Faces of Death hologram girl) is a late amendment to the base set of tiles, long after every enemies, letters, ads, leftovers. This weird set of tiles are the special art for Faces of Death (including stuff like the scrapped hologram of Duke head) and the various Shrapnel City textures and banners, including everything from Stadium. Not all of them actually, there are some in the base set, but it's quite remarkable. Shrapnel City levels use these excessively. The most recognisable ones are 3385-3387, the brown the grey castle marble textures, which are ususally used for medieval levels in user maps, but in the base game, they were city textures, and helped giving the episode its distinct style never really replicated since. The building wall texture with window at 3394-3396 are also distinct episode 3 textures. The rest in tiles013.art are mostly one off textures like the fire truck, the Born to be Wild movie etc.
What got me thinking is that some of the levels of episode 3 have their origins when the 0.99 beta was released, most notably Bank Roll, Flood Zone/Santa Monica Pier, LA Rumble, Rabid Transit, Hotel Hell and even Freeway according to the Duke Wiki. However these levels must have looked very differently back even in january 1996, because these tiles didn't exist then. I checked the art of Sweeney and Sewer, and they didn't have a single piece from tiles013, probably this might be the reason why everyone feel they belong to LA Meltdown aesthetically much more than to Shrapnel City.
My point is, the original set of Shrapnel City, including Bank Roll, Flood Zone, LA Rumble, Rabid Transit and Hotel Hell must have looked different compared to the final version due to the lack of tiles013.art. I'm just wondering how the tiles000-012 files looked like back then. Those are having even some atomic stuff, like the ship from Babe Land (the pirate flag is actually found in tiles013.art) or the tank and expander sprites. Maybe I will check this later. Too bad eduke32 don't allow to replace any content of the sharewares/betas, so it's a bit more tricky to check and compare.
What got me thinking is that some of the levels of episode 3 have their origins when the 0.99 beta was released, most notably Bank Roll, Flood Zone/Santa Monica Pier, LA Rumble, Rabid Transit, Hotel Hell and even Freeway according to the Duke Wiki. However these levels must have looked very differently back even in january 1996, because these tiles didn't exist then. I checked the art of Sweeney and Sewer, and they didn't have a single piece from tiles013, probably this might be the reason why everyone feel they belong to LA Meltdown aesthetically much more than to Shrapnel City.
My point is, the original set of Shrapnel City, including Bank Roll, Flood Zone, LA Rumble, Rabid Transit and Hotel Hell must have looked different compared to the final version due to the lack of tiles013.art. I'm just wondering how the tiles000-012 files looked like back then. Those are having even some atomic stuff, like the ship from Babe Land (the pirate flag is actually found in tiles013.art) or the tank and expander sprites. Maybe I will check this later. Too bad eduke32 don't allow to replace any content of the sharewares/betas, so it's a bit more tricky to check and compare.
Episode 3 was still incomplete by the time they released the shareware version
After the shareware version was released, they made a separate art for new textures.
Some scans:
Spoiler
#19 Posted 21 November 2020 - 05:44 PM
This is exactly what I was saying, they were so incomplete, even a massive retexturing happened. The pic of Hotel Hell looks amazing actually. Stadium seems to have art from tiles013.art though in the scan.
#20 Posted 22 November 2020 - 02:05 AM
Thought N6 was the one with the red drone in it, but it was N7.
If you walk here in N7;
You might notice a slight bump as there is a sprite in each corner;
Its tile number is 910 but this tile is empty, the first valid tile from there is 925, which is labelled DRONE1HIT. It shows the red drone that is visible on the loading screen. Interestingly the green drones are DRONE1, so this implies the red ones were removed some time earlier and that the few tiles (925-929) were just left behind - or else the red drone was meant to come back and would be changed to DRONE2? The loading screen seems to show tiles not present here, though, which suggests it was removed earlier if anything... that or the build is fabricated.
Tile 482;
While I'm there, tile 887 is rather fascinating, almost comes off as an early version of those in the room the monolith takes you to in Dark Side. Can't remember where, if anywhere, this was used in Lameduke. It seems oddly out of place there. We know the map set included is not complete and we also know Dark Side did exist at a time when the game still had a lot of Lameduke assets, such as Duke's sprite (possibly slightly modified by then) and the reflective water. Perhaps this tile was for that map, then, but it may be used in a map we do have and I've just missed it, so feel free to correct me.
It's a shame Lameduke's file dates are bullshit. Either way, the red drone. If you look at tile 482 again, you'll notice the green drone is doing something it doesn't do in the game, because it is firing a missile. The red drone has none. The loading screen is staged, yes. Still, if you look at the CON code for DRONE1, it is only set to fire bullets, but there is a behavior that the green drone doesn't use where it reacts to being hit...
Now the headache begins, because this has an action defined and it uses a tile 346 tiles away from the flying tiles at 579... which would make the first frame of the action 925. This makes no sense as the blank tiles imply the red drone was at 910, so was it moved to 579 and then overwritten or what? Like why would they bother to correct the action like that, purely for testing maybe? If the red drone was at 579 in the past, then what was tile 910 for? Missile firing? It's a bit strange, really.
If you walk here in N7;
You might notice a slight bump as there is a sprite in each corner;
Its tile number is 910 but this tile is empty, the first valid tile from there is 925, which is labelled DRONE1HIT. It shows the red drone that is visible on the loading screen. Interestingly the green drones are DRONE1, so this implies the red ones were removed some time earlier and that the few tiles (925-929) were just left behind - or else the red drone was meant to come back and would be changed to DRONE2? The loading screen seems to show tiles not present here, though, which suggests it was removed earlier if anything... that or the build is fabricated.
Tile 482;
While I'm there, tile 887 is rather fascinating, almost comes off as an early version of those in the room the monolith takes you to in Dark Side. Can't remember where, if anywhere, this was used in Lameduke. It seems oddly out of place there. We know the map set included is not complete and we also know Dark Side did exist at a time when the game still had a lot of Lameduke assets, such as Duke's sprite (possibly slightly modified by then) and the reflective water. Perhaps this tile was for that map, then, but it may be used in a map we do have and I've just missed it, so feel free to correct me.
It's a shame Lameduke's file dates are bullshit. Either way, the red drone. If you look at tile 482 again, you'll notice the green drone is doing something it doesn't do in the game, because it is firing a missile. The red drone has none. The loading screen is staged, yes. Still, if you look at the CON code for DRONE1, it is only set to fire bullets, but there is a behavior that the green drone doesn't use where it reacts to being hit...
Now the headache begins, because this has an action defined and it uses a tile 346 tiles away from the flying tiles at 579... which would make the first frame of the action 925. This makes no sense as the blank tiles imply the red drone was at 910, so was it moved to 579 and then overwritten or what? Like why would they bother to correct the action like that, purely for testing maybe? If the red drone was at 579 in the past, then what was tile 910 for? Missile firing? It's a bit strange, really.
This post has been edited by High Treason: 22 November 2020 - 02:21 AM
#21 Posted 22 November 2020 - 02:19 AM
The Watchtower, on 21 November 2020 - 05:44 PM, said:
This is exactly what I was saying, they were so incomplete, even a massive retexturing happened. The pic of Hotel Hell looks amazing actually. Stadium seems to have art from tiles013.art though in the scan.
Ditto on the Hotel Hell shot, I had seen it a few times before but I've always loved it. And just look at that fucking car. The early attempts at vehicles in Build were quite something.
This post has been edited by ck3D: 22 November 2020 - 02:20 AM
#22 Posted 22 November 2020 - 06:11 AM
ck3D, on 22 November 2020 - 02:19 AM, said:
Ditto on the Hotel Hell shot, I had seen it a few times before but I've always loved it. And just look at that fucking car. The early attempts at vehicles in Build were quite something.
Yea, proto-HH also had that futuristic blue car in front of the cinema entrance if I remember. It still has its own textures...
Also, wall textures were better in the pic than in the final version. I think the overuse of castle marbles (3385-3387) didn't make the maps look better. Also, why were the fire hydrants absent from episode 3? Some levels like LA Rumble, Hotel Hell or Freeway would look better with them.
This post has been edited by The Watchtower: 22 November 2020 - 06:12 AM
#23 Posted 05 December 2020 - 02:18 PM
The Watchtower, on 06 November 2020 - 07:59 AM, said:
https://dukenukem.fa..._1995_prototype
From the screenshots here it's quite clear the first five levels of LA Meltdown were close to completion and The Abyss was also started. It has some space screenshots, the one with the spacesuit is Warp Factor, which according to this site was also close to completion, however I can't id some pictures here.
1: RLD probably but not sure
2. RLD
3. DR
4. ??? (space level)
5. WF (but with different texturing)
6. ??? (another space)
7. ??? (and another, probably WF because of the elevator)
8. ??? (not even sure if it's a space map or a city map)
9. HH
10. HH
11. ??? (probably an earlier iteration RLD's abandoned garage)
12. Abyss
13. LF
14. LF
15. LF
16. TD
17. TD
18. TD
19. HH
20. LF
21. TD
22. RLD
23. RLD
24. ??? (TD maybe)
25. TD
26. ??? (DR maybe)
27. DR
From the screenshots here it's quite clear the first five levels of LA Meltdown were close to completion and The Abyss was also started. It has some space screenshots, the one with the spacesuit is Warp Factor, which according to this site was also close to completion, however I can't id some pictures here.
1: RLD probably but not sure
2. RLD
3. DR
4. ??? (space level)
5. WF (but with different texturing)
6. ??? (another space)
7. ??? (and another, probably WF because of the elevator)
8. ??? (not even sure if it's a space map or a city map)
9. HH
10. HH
11. ??? (probably an earlier iteration RLD's abandoned garage)
12. Abyss
13. LF
14. LF
15. LF
16. TD
17. TD
18. TD
19. HH
20. LF
21. TD
22. RLD
23. RLD
24. ??? (TD maybe)
25. TD
26. ??? (DR maybe)
27. DR
First of all, I'm glad these articles I wrote are getting any attention! I scoured the Internet and have tons more prototype images that I've been planning on posting, but I've been too busy.
A few of these:
4. No idea. I've tried matching this image to the 2D map of 1995 Dark Side leaked by TerminX, but no luck so far.
6. Warp Factor, in the circular control room where the windows open (even the building out the window matches the final game)
7. I'm actually not sure because the hallway on the left and the structure out the window on the right *definitely* don't align with Warp Factor
8. I don't know what this is either, but it's kinda similar to the stairwell down to the reactor room on Lunar Reactor (similar textures too). There's a scrapped level in one of the beta videos that might also correspond to this.
11. This is definitely Hollywood Holocaust. This is the garage you started in, before they added the rooftop.
22. You said this is RLD, but I'm actually not so sure. There are images of strippers on other levels in other prototype screenshots, and they even used to have a hidden stripper in v0.99 of Hollywood Holocaust. I'm not sure what level this is.
24. This is the room with the red access card on Toxic Dump.
26. Not sure, but the textures here match the corner of the hallway with the chapel on Death Row. White door may have been replaced with a prison door.
This post has been edited by Smikes: 05 December 2020 - 02:27 PM
#24 Posted 06 December 2020 - 12:59 AM
27 is Death Row, and 26 looks like it's been taken during the same DM game. The player is even taking a screenshot of killing the same opponent (out of the 2).
Ha but the last 2 previous screenshots are also from the same DM session and they're from Toxic Dump. Notice that the door texture in shot 24 is the same, and Toxic Dump also that has the same wall texture in shot 25.
11 looks more like Levelord's style to me. Starting in a garage sounds more like something he'd do as well, like in Red Ruckus.
Ha but the last 2 previous screenshots are also from the same DM session and they're from Toxic Dump. Notice that the door texture in shot 24 is the same, and Toxic Dump also that has the same wall texture in shot 25.
11 looks more like Levelord's style to me. Starting in a garage sounds more like something he'd do as well, like in Red Ruckus.
This post has been edited by MetHy: 06 December 2020 - 01:06 AM
#25 Posted 06 December 2020 - 07:58 AM
MetHy, on 06 December 2020 - 12:59 AM, said:
11 looks more like Levelord's style to me. Starting in a garage sounds more like something he'd do as well, like in Red Ruckus.
About screenshot number 4, I posted this image showing a map from LameDuke that survived long enough to be included in the November 1995 prototype. Screenshot number 4 is probably from another level that got scrapped in the final version too, who knows.
#26 Posted 07 December 2020 - 04:34 AM
That garage still looks like a Levelord creation though, at least without context.
Blum also made a garage start for RLD and it was abandoned as well. Probably Broussard thought it's not graphic and interesting enough.
Also, AFAIK Hotel Hell had a garage start as well. I'm pretty sure the original concept was more well-thought out as the final version with its questionable progression.
Blum also made a garage start for RLD and it was abandoned as well. Probably Broussard thought it's not graphic and interesting enough.
Also, AFAIK Hotel Hell had a garage start as well. I'm pretty sure the original concept was more well-thought out as the final version with its questionable progression.
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